Fanless Radeon 8500?

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grimsh
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Fanless Radeon 8500?

Post by grimsh » Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:38 am

I have a Hercules Radeon 8500LE 128mb and I've been wanting to replace the fan with a fanless heatsink. Unfortunately the card doesn't have any heatsink mounting holes so the new Zalman heatpipe coolers are out of the question. But apparently the Zalman ZM17CU doesn't need mounting holes, but I wonder if it's enough to cool a radeon 8500?

Has anyone tried this or used the ZM17CU on a card similar in thermal output to the radeon 8500?

//Grimsh.

quokked
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Post by quokked » Sun Oct 06, 2002 10:45 pm

I think it'd be a bit too hard to run a fanless radeon setup I had a look round the web and I posted in another post earlier that the reading I found on a Radeon 8500 from monitoring is 44°c and this is with a little HSF setup as well, so if u were trying to try and run something like the Zalman ZM17Cu I'd suggest to put a fan onto something like a PCI slot blank and aim that onto the Zalman :) or u can buy something like a heatsink of the right size/shape and thermal expoxy that onto your chip but it's not removable remember :) good luck with it :)

grimsh
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Post by grimsh » Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:44 am

Yea, after some checking around I came to the same conclusion.. I think I'm gonna change the card to a geforce4 mx instead. Even tho the gf4mx is a inferior card they are avail without fans, and nvidia also has by far superior drivers for linux.

That'll take care of the gfx card.. now I just have to decide what to do with the HD and this puppy should be silent 8)

//Grimsh.

quokked
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Post by quokked » Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:30 am

Can I have the old radeon 8500? (worth a try) :)

gman
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Its possible

Post by gman » Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:57 pm

Hey there, i have a retail radeon 8500 64mb, and i took a chance and added the ZM17CU, i have an outflowing fan in the back of the case, but its next to the cpu, and the 8500 still runs good. I haven't had a problem yet. My case is even warmer than most too. I don't know about the hercules though. Check the memory and core setting compared to to mine and see if u are willing to take that chance. I run my at 275mhz standard for both memory and core. Goodluck

NateR
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Post by NateR » Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:29 pm

I just though Id add that I put a ZM17CU on an oem 8500, which runs at core-250, memory-275. I didnt really test it too long without any extra cooling, becuase i have no way of monitoring it and i didnt want to mess it up. It felt like it was getting a little hot though. Either way, a Panaflo FBA08A12L @ 5v pointed at the bottom of the card really adds little to no noise (depending on your setup). I think its a good compromise for a fast high performance video card.

Try the ZM17CU and see if it works by itself in your system, then add a fan if necessary.

Tulip
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Post by Tulip » Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:23 pm

Well, i'm also running a Hercules Radeon 8500LE. Ripped the supplied fan and heatsink off last weekend and replaced it with the mentioned ZM17CU. Runs like a dream, even after 1 hour of 3dMarks 2001 looping, the card and heatsink don't even get remotely hot. The only fans in the whole case are in the Zalman ZM300-APF power supply and the Zalman 6500CU CPU cooler, running at 1150rpm! Obviously, my setup is extremely quiet now!!

grimsh
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Post by grimsh » Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:54 am

Cool! That's great to know. I like my radeon 8500LE card and wouldn't want to change it. Now I can get me a ZM17CU, they're not even especially expensive, and be one more step closer towards the silent solution we're all urging for :).

Next target: cpu fan :)

//Grimsh.

jaypers
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Post by jaypers » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:10 am

Fore those about to do some modding: I have just seen on the Zalman website that in November they will be bringing out the ZM80A (The A being the important bit here) heatpipe cooler which will not need holes to install. Might be worth waiting for! I have an ATI AIW Radeon 8500 and have the same problem and am waiting very impatiently! That small fan is unbelievably loud!

Just a thought: how efficient is that small fan (probably 25mm I'd guess) at cooling the ATI heatsink? I mean, what if I took it off the heatsink and used say a 80mm Papst instead from short distance (I have one spare :D ) blowing straight onto it?

Also is it possible to get a Gfx card temp reading via software?

And one final question relating to the heatsink: I can unscrew the fan and take it off the heatsink. However to install the heatpipe cooler I assume I'll need to remove the ATI heatsink too. It seems stuck/glued on the the card, ie there's no screws - is there a trick/technique or will it not be possible to use the Zalman?

quokked
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Post by quokked » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:50 am

jaypers wrote:
Just a thought: how efficient is that small fan (probably 25mm I'd guess) at cooling the ATI heatsink? I mean, what if I took it off the heatsink and used say a 80mm Papst instead from short distance (I have one spare :D ) blowing straight onto it?

Also is it possible to get a Gfx card temp reading via software?

And one final question relating to the heatsink: I can unscrew the fan and take it off the heatsink. However to install the heatpipe cooler I assume I'll need to remove the ATI heatsink too. It seems stuck/glued on the the card, ie there's no screws - is there a trick/technique or will it not be possible to use the Zalman?

- With the 80MM papst fan blowing onto it is a effective mod but if u have a intergrated VGA sink that a of Cards have u'd probably need to stick on a bigger heatsink so it can make full use of that extra airflow

-GFx card temp reading via software is possible via some cards, I know ASUS and some others do it, u'll need the manufactuer's utlities to read the hardware monitoring on the card though,
some motherboards has a header for an extra thermistor most of them if i remember right (don't hold me to this) is a thermistor

-the old trick to get an thermal expoxied HSF off is the old "freezer trick" what u do is stick the card into a anti static bag, stick it into the freezer for a little while and then the thermal expoxy will go brittle, then gently wedge a flat head screwdriver under the HSF, with a bit of cardboard to protect the PCB and GENTLY! wedge off the HSF, careful with this though I've destroyed a crappy Geforce DDR with this method though but I've done it many times, good luck :)

Tulip
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Post by Tulip » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:54 am

There seem to be a variety of ways of removing the original heatsink.

1. You can use the freezer trick (place VGA card in Antistatic bag, place bag in Freezer for 20-30 minutes, then just prise the heatsink off with an old Credit card), which seems to be the most recommended method.

2. Place old Credit card between GPU and Heatsink to protect the card, then
use a small screwdriver between Credit card and Heatsink, and twist the Heatsink off. This was the method I used, and it only took 30 seconds in total!

Remove all traces of the old thermal glue from the GPU, then glue fix the Zalman to it!

jaypers
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Post by jaypers » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:11 am

Aaaaargh! :shock: Sounds an absolutely terrifying thing to do with my brand new and rather expensive Radeon! But I just can't help but :lol: at the thought!

Thanks very much both of you, I will order the ZM80A when it comes out and let you know how I get on with with this technique. I'm already shaking in anticipation!

Ralf63
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Post by Ralf63 » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:28 am

grimsh wrote:Cool! That's great to know. I like my radeon 8500LE card and wouldn't want to change it. Now I can get me a ZM17CU, they're not even especially expensive, and be one more step closer towards the silent solution we're all urging for.
For God sake! DONT use the clumsy ZM17CU together with your Radeon 8500LE card. You WILL regret it. The ZM17CU was designed for max Geforce-2 GTS cards and the likes (and even then; it was never a good solution, since you cant get it off anymore (permanetly glued to the core = also means more rigid/fragile and weaker heat-transfer capability). In one swedish forum a guy glued it on a standard-clocked TI-4400 - the GPU-temp rose directly 10-15C beyond original temp, despite an added Zalman Fanbracket 92mm fan working at full speed.

Instead - buy the next version of the excellent Zalman ZM80-HP sink (probably named ZM80A-HP). I have this great passive cooler on my Abit TI-4200 and it works like a dream.

Tulip
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Post by Tulip » Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:25 am

Sorry, don't agree. I've had no problems with the ZM-CU17 and Radeon 8500, in fact i'm using it as i write this EMail. I'm no gamer, but the 8500LE without doubt DOESN'T produce anywhere as much heat as an NVidia 4400 or 4600, so it shouldn't be a problem !!!

Ralf63
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Post by Ralf63 » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:39 pm

Tulip wrote:Sorry, don't agree. I've had no problems with the ZM-CU17 and Radeon 8500, in fact i'm using it as i write this EMail. I'm no gamer, but the 8500LE without doubt DOESN'T produce anywhere as much heat as an NVidia 4400 or 4600, so it shouldn't be a problem !!!
Regardless; there is no reason whatsoever why one should buy the older ZM-CU17 that has to be permanently GLUED to the core. Why not wait for the revised version of ZM50/ZM80-HP instead? Its much better.
In the Zalman Northbridge-sink manual they even recommend ordinary thermal paste over adhesive thermal paste. Ordinary paste is usually more effective in transferring heat.

NateR
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Post by NateR » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:20 pm

Why use an 8500 if you dont play games? If I didnt play games I would get a matrox in the blink of an eye. Furthermore, playing games is what stresses the gpu and make it hot, just as cpu intesnsive applications (like prime95) make a cpu hotter. I use the ZM-CU17 on an 8500 and its really not cooling power without a fan blowing on it (I have no probs with a panaflo@5v). Now it seems to run cooler than with stock cooling. I havent seen anything on the new Zalman vga sinks so i cant comment, but they sound like theyre worth waiting for.

PS why isnt it possible to get the ZM-CU17 off in the freezer like you get the origional hsf off?

quokked
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Post by quokked » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:23 pm

nate wrote: PS why isnt it possible to get the ZM-CU17 off in the freezer like you get the origional hsf off?

It should be possible to get the ZM Cu17 off using the freezer method though because u're using thermal glue like Artic Silver Epoxy, but haven't had any experience with the Zalman glue though

Rusty075
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Post by Rusty075 » Fri Nov 01, 2002 9:39 pm

I've removed the Zalman VGA cooler from 2 different cards, one successfully, the other less so. Freezing and then twisting seems to be the easiest method.

My unsuccessful attempt was my own fault. When I installed the cooler I put too much glue on, and it squeezed off the top of the GPU and onto the sides. When I tried to twist it off it took the whole top layer of the GPU with it.

So the moral of my story it to use the epoxy like you would thermal grease. Use just the thinnest layer possible.




Anybody want to buy a VERY used Geforce2? :roll:

NateR
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Post by NateR » Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:00 pm

Lol Rusty075. I guess I wont be taking my ZM-CU17 off anytime soon. I too put the thermal adhesive not only on the core (in liberal quantities) but also on the sides. It only occured to me after I put the stinky goop on there that maybe too much would be not the greatest idea, but by then of course it was too late. Oh well, live and learn.

:mrgreen: mr green is cool

gksam
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Post by gksam » Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:28 pm

I run my 8500LELE overclocked at 250/250.

I unscrewed the OEM fan on it. I am using a Panaflo L1A at 12V pointed down on the card from above. It has been running fine for the past 2 months 24/7. I feel the heatsink from time to time and it doesn't really get very hot. It doesn't get nearly as hot as the stock 845G onboard video heatsink! (which is quite large). The 845G video chip even in windows at idle gets very hot.

I am going to try a ZM17 on my card.. without any fans.. I think the LELE Radeon is running at a lower voltage as well (since they CPU doesn't run at as high a speed).

(My card is a Sapphiretech card or something or rather).

gman
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my 8500 is just running fine

Post by gman » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:25 pm

I would also disagree on the topic on not using the ZM-CU17. My 8500 retail runs fine with the zm-CU17 without a fan. This fan is not designed for Gforce 2 GTS cards only. Comparing a Gforce 4 to a 8500 on using this heatsink is also a bad comparison. For those of u who have a 8500, if u compare that heatsink and fan on the retail and oem versions to any of the ones on gforce 4 you know that they are tiny in comparison. Gforce 4s need more cooling to keep them going. THe ZM80-HPs are primarily designed for these latest cards. If you look at the heatsink and fan on the lastest card Radeon 9700 you also can tell that it demands a lot of cooling. Personally i wouldn't want to spend major bucks on the ZM80-Hp. Good luck on all of you who decide to go that route.

gksam
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Post by gksam » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:10 pm

Good to hear another fanless 8500 experience (retail too). I also don't wnat to spend the big bucks on a ZM80A (the A version is upcoming and is designed for cards without heatsink mounting holes).

Cheers

gksam
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Post by gksam » Thu Nov 07, 2002 4:56 pm

Ok, so I took the plunge and bought a ZM-CU17. I put it on my 8500LELE (o/c from 230/230 to 250/250). Just wondering from others who have been doign the same.. does the base of the heatsink get very hot to the touch?

Just to be safe I'm pointing a panaflo at 5V on it. But just wondering if my temps are in line with everybody elses'.

Cheers

NateR
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Post by NateR » Thu Nov 07, 2002 5:06 pm

I dont know how people are gauging their temp, and there seems to be alot of discrepancy about whether this ZM-CU17 works fanless with an 8500. I think its best to try it and see if it works for you, beacuse there are so many variables which can be affecting peoples results.

For my computer, it seems that the card gets too hot without a fan on it. Realize that when I say "too hot", it might not be the same as someone else's "too hot". For me, "too hot" is quite a bit hotter than with stock cooling (to the point that it hurts my finger if I leave it there), temperature being estimated by putting my hand on the sink and on the back of the card (while using a GPU intensive application!!!). It could also be that this temp is fine: I just dont justify the chance of shortening the length of the cards life over the sound of a 5V panaflo pointed at the bottom of the card.

Note: I have an oem radeon 8500 with 250/275 clock speeds. AFAIK, retail clock speed is 275/275, and oem versions seem to vary, so keep clock speed in mind when deciding whether or not to use a ZM-CU17 on your Radeon 8500.

gksam
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Post by gksam » Thu Nov 07, 2002 11:11 pm

Thanks for the feedback nate.

I think I will keep the 5V panaflo there as well. I'm not sure what the thermal limit of the chip is, but I'm just wondering because the i845 onboard video heatsink gets very hot (hotter than a fanless ZM-CU17) even at idle. So I was always guessing that the Retail HSF on the 8500 was overkill :D

On another note, I used to run an ATI 7500. I took off the fan, and just left it running with the factory heatsink. It didn't get hot at all :D So I concluded the fan was on the 7500 just for looks -- to give the perception of high performance :D

I just hope that my 8500LE will last maybe 2 years or so.. After that time, it will be pretty worthless (i.e. right now my card is $120 CDN = $75 US).

Ralf63
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Post by Ralf63 » Fri Nov 08, 2002 2:05 pm

gksam wrote:Good to hear another fanless 8500 experience (retail too). I also don't wnat to spend the big bucks on a ZM80A (the A version is upcoming and is designed for cards without heatsink mounting holes).
Big bucks? :lol:

The price-difference between the two is measly 15 dollars, give or take. For that $15 extra you get a fully reusable and much more effektive and future-secure GPU-cooling-solution, that dont need the support of a 5V Panaflo-fan. Also; you get a mechanically less brittle/sensitive solution, as well. Anyway, for those who still wants the ZM17CU-variant; you got to hurry. Most stores dont restock them anymore - they just sell what they have left on their shelves.

NateR
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Post by NateR » Fri Nov 08, 2002 4:19 pm

Well, after reading gksam's last post about how hot his onboard video was getting, I decided I was being a wuss about my 8500. No more fan on the ZM-17CU! It does feel pretty hot when Im gaming, but there are no stability issues, and when its idling (97% of the time), it is cool enough. Maybe my card life will decrease a little, maybe not--but by that time Im sure I will have another anyway.

Ralf63, I think 40+ bucks is kind of expensive for a VGA heatsink, but the real issue for me is that the zm-80 does not as of yet work with my card. And so far, the cheaper (16$ @ newegg) version is, and without a fan at this point. Even if I had to put a 5V panaflo on the bottom again, it would still solve the origional problem of getting a quiet cooling solution for my video card.

Furthermore, the less expensive ZM17CU should IMO perform somewhere in between the zm-80 and zm-50, as the ZM17CU has over 100cm^2 more surface area than the ZM-50 (although the zm-50 does have a little more mass). So if the ZM-80 is an overkill for an 8500 (As its intended to cool even the new geforce4 cards), then the ZM17CU should do okay.


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

gksam
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Post by gksam » Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:55 am

Big bucks? :lol:

The price-difference between the two is measly 15 dollars, give or take. For that $15 extra you get a fully reusable and much more effektive and
I was basing my calculations on the fact that I cannot find a local store here that sells the ZM-80.
A ZM17CU is $39 CDN locally = $45
a ZM-80 is $39 US + $10 shipping = $90 after shipping and exchange

Note that the 8500LE now sells for $110 CDN locally where I am. I didn't want to spend a large amount on a heatsink considering I could almost buy a new card with that money :) Also the ZM-80 does not work on my 8500LE since there are no holes on my card to mount the thing. I believe the ZM-80A which comes out soon (but still not out yet) should.

As for reusability, I used very little adhesive (very very thin layer). Either my card burns out.. or becomes worthless.. in which case I just rip the heatsink off and see whether it damages the card or not :P Likely I will just keep the heatsink on and use it in a second system.

Cheers

DarkLord
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Post by DarkLord » Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:12 am

Hmm, interesting discussion.. Personally I would go for the ZM-80 HP (if possible) rather than the ZM17Cu, just to be sure.. but *would* it be really save? i mean if i mount the Zm-80HP on my 8500LE (with mounting holes) within my Mini tower: would this be sufficent cooling?
And onother thing that gives me a headache about this heatsink is its weight. Does anyone actually have it and can comment on this? Does one really have to be that carefully when moving the case? I transport my pc a lot....[/list]

jaypers
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Post by jaypers » Wed Dec 04, 2002 4:03 am

Well I am reporting back as promised re removing my heatsink off my Radeon 8500! Many thanks go to quokked and Tulip and also Darklord & Justin_R from another post (and everyone's else's advice - apologies if I have forgotten someone!).

After being v v scared I went ahead and bought an akasa icicle 311 P3 heatsink and some Arctic Silver 3 Epoxy. There seems to be 2 schools of thought: one saying freeze the card and the others saying don't bother. I'm lazy so I didn't! I managed to remove the heatsink pretty quickly by using a standard flat knife (wider and flater than my screw driver which didn't fir under heatsink). The hardest bit was removing all the glue ATI used - there was *loads*! :roll:

Fitting the new heatsink was a doddle although it *just* fitted with a clearance of a couple mms allround.

My new setup is so much quieter I can't believe it! I'm using a dedicated Papst (11db/19cfm) and the new HS is cooler to the touch than the ATI HS under windows. I'm waiting a few days for the epoxy to reach full thermal capacity (as per AS3 manual) before trying some 3D but have high hopes. The fan is currently running at 12V and is inaudible (until I quieten down other parts of mys system!).

Now all I can hear now is that Seasonic PSU fan - I'm sure somethings gone wrong with it all of a sudden! :wink:

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