It is currently Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:46 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Having a 1U empty metal box laying around, I decided to build a new case for my HTPC :-D
System config is the same as my previous ML03:
i3-2100 (soon to be i3-2120T)
2x2048 MB (Kingston VLP low profile)
Asus P8H67-M-PRO
PicoPSU-150-XT
Terratec Cinergy S2
Hauppauge HVR1700
OCZ Vertex3
2x Hitachi 5K750-640
WD20EARX
(sorry... the WD10EARS didn't fit :mrgreen:)

The empty box I used is one of those "slim-line" boxes made by Hifi2000 in Italy, they're available in various sizes, 1U or 2U, aluminium front (silver or black) and back, extruded sides and steel covers (alu covers available as option), they are bare so to fit a complete PC system there's some DIY to do :lol:

The system I'm building can house two half-height, half-length cards side by side with a modified bracket (DVB-T and DVB-S2 cards), a full-height, 1/3-length (i.e. length of the PCI contacts) card over them (audio card), and a fourth half-height, half-length card over the standard mATX slots, using the first one with a 1U riser card, standard HH bracket. For the cooling system, I have some LGA1155 HSFs on the way, an active one with a 75x75 blower and a passive one, will experiment once they arrive with my i3-2100 and soon i3-2120T.

Box measures 415x40x280 mm inside (16 1/3" x 1 1/2" x 11"), standard 1U rackmount on the outside (will cut out the ears to fit in my Hi-fi system).

Testing position with an old P4 mobo.
Image

Drilling fixing holes and checking mobo height, in the end I used two M4x12 steel washers and one M5x15 nylon one. I had to carefully cut all the protruding pins on the underside of the board...
Image Image

Drilling more holes to fit the backplate (center 3 ones) and to ease work when mounting the heatsink (the 4 squared ones)
Image

First test with the Sandy board :-D
Image Image

Placing a piece of insulating plastic. :-)
Image

And now the first heavy DIYing: making the back plate ATX ports :-)
Image Image

First riser card tests
Image

Opening the expansion slots.
Image Image Image

DVB-T card fixing on the underside, no need for L-shaped brackets
Image Image

PLacing some Lian-Li HTPC feet
Image Image

Testing 3.5" drive clearance with DVB-S2 card and its aux power jack.
Image

Testing cards clearande and placement.
Image Image

Testing HH slot with standard bracket, no plan to use it ATM.
Image

Placing mobo to check proper mounting of everything.
Image

More to follow, I'm still building it :-)


Last edited by pm.stacker on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:58 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11943
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Looks like a lot of precision metal cutting! The small size is appealing -- low profile & shallow depth. What CPU cooling are you planning?

_________________
Mike Chin,
Editor/Publisher, SPCR
Support SPCR with your donations!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
And this is not the deepest box they make in this 1U line: there's the 350 mm (13 3/4") deep too, with that I would've been able to cram 2x3.5" and 4x2.5" inside, but then maybe that's a lil' too much for a Pico-150, given that it has to provide power for my DiseqC+LNBs upstairs (15W max) :-? now I built the SSD bracket (it hangs over the DIMM modules), have to make that for the 5K750, unfortunately only place where I can put it is over the SATA ports beside the slim ODD, so very short or 90° SATA plugs will be required (experimenting with some InLINE cables...)
For cooling, I can modify a fanless 1U all-copper LGA775 heatsink, otherwise I have an active 775 which fits a 70x70x10 fan but there's no holes above it, should check if a 60x60x15 blower fits (I guess not, 1U heatsinks tend to touch the roof "as they are" and this case is slightly shorter inside than a standard 1U (40 mm vs. 42.5) :-().
On the way I have some CoolJAG LGA115x 1U HSFs, a fanless aluminium one (to cut down on weight) and an active one with a relatively large (for 1U) 72x72x15 PWM blower which seems to be made by Top Motor and claims 18 dBA at lowest speed (1000 rpm). If it's that silent, I'll try swapping the two single-slot PCI risers for a dual-slot with a Pericom X1 bridge, to connect it to the blue X16 slot: that way I would have enough space to make a closed air channel and direct the blower exhaust on the rear (using the HH slot) :-D PS: if I want I can get an alu upper cover with CNC-machined full venting, they make B.T.O. box components at a very good price.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:04 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11943
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
You might try using one of those IU heatsinks as a heat transfer block between CPU and the top panel of the chassis -- ie, mechanically and thermally couple the top panel (which I presume is aluminum?) to the CPU. Then the whole cover would become a heatsink, and as long as this case is at the top of your equipment rack, with a few inches of space above for dissipation of heat, your system could probably run without active cooling.

Here's what I am thinking: Fit a copper or aluminum block on the CPU that is just a bit too tall for the cover to fit without a little force. Maybe a couple of mm. Ideally, it would mount like a heatsink on the mobo. When the cover is screwed down, it will bend a bit, as will the motherboard, and force contact between the cover & the block. A bit of TIM between them... and the cover should become a radiator. Probably will not cool that well if you max the load on the CPU for long periods, but for typical HTPC usage, it will probably work fine.

Just a thought.

_________________
Mike Chin,
Editor/Publisher, SPCR
Support SPCR with your donations!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Right now the covers are of anti-scratch coated steel, they're the stock covers, as options I can have alu covers with standard rear vent or full vented by request, I was planning on getting an alu cover anyway because it doesn't have the little curved "lip" inwards on the front side which I would have to file out for hours where the ODD sits, otherwise I couldn't close the box. Another option I thought was to put the blower exhaust towards the rear standard vents on the up cover, but I want a cooling solution that directs hot towards the rear, not upwards so I can put another component on top of this without worrying much, we'll see.
Just made the bracket for the 5K750 using some recycled motherboard standoffs screwed together to get the right height :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
The active 1155 HSF I will get tomorrow, is the CoolJAG DEN-7
Image
The HS itself is very similar to a Dynatron LGA775 I had which was VERY noisy due to broken bearings :-?, fan is 75x75x15, 1000-5500 rpm, 18-52 dBA, typically a server HSF.

The passive HS is something like the DEN-B-A, without the little center indentation
Image

I downloaded the tech drawings for DEN-7 and the fan has a rather large exhaust port (45 mm wide) that should reduce air speed and turbulence, which tends to happen on smaller 60x60 small-exhaust blowers.

Question: to reduce power and heat should I switch to the i3-2120T (35W) or the differences with my 2100 are negligible? :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:28 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11943
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
pm.stacker wrote:
Question: to reduce power and heat should I switch to the i3-2120T (35W) or the differences with my 2100 are negligible? :roll:

negligible -- except maybe at full load. See our review of the 2100T -- http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1202-page1.html

_________________
Mike Chin,
Editor/Publisher, SPCR
Support SPCR with your donations!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Testing without front panel, with the NT07-1156 stripped of its fan and cover closed (no vents), it gets warm, I'll check temps after restoring the Acronis image.
Note: well-planting the WD20EARX on the case bottom, NO vibrations at all! :-D only a faint buzz from the PicoPSU
Shame: the 3.5" drive over the ODD L-shaped bracket with ODD on becomes slightly higher than 40 mm (40.75 maybe) so to close the box I'd have to put very thin M3 washers to raise the cover up a little. But I have the solution for that :-D replacing the L-shaped bar with a plain one, 40 mm high as this, but instead of bolting it to the bottom (the one I'm using now has been recycled from the experimental "unsuspecting nettop"), I'll bolt it to the groove on the side panel :-) that should gain 1.5 mm of height and so, full ODD clearance (even the slot-in model, which mechanism requires about 1 mm above and under to work properly). :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Clearance gained :-D and DEN-7 mounted, the fan is made by Everflow but it is very quiet anyway when in min speed (920 RPM), inaudible once I close the cover. Even at full speed the noise it makes is mostly "whoosh", very little buzz or motor noise, well done CoolJAG 8-)

Just found a way to mount another 2.5" suspended drive :lol: with a WD10JPVT that would make the same capacity I had in the ML03 (2.0+1.0+750+120) :-D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
SSD suspended support bracket
Image

Cutting the L-shaped ODD bracket to gain height.
Image

Filing the aux ODD bracket to fit between the 3.5" drive and DVB-S2 card.
Image Image Image

Expansion card fixing piece
Image

Hidden supports (no screws will be visible up front) for USB2.0 and front panel
Image Image

At first I made two holes on the case bottom to fit a 2.5" drive behind the front panel, using its 2 standard M3 bottom holes. Then I re-engineered with a side-by-side bracket which allows for 2 drives to be placed over the 3.5" and besides the ODD
Image Image Image

Some old-school tech drawings...
Image

To build a little exhaust duct, have yet to assemble it, that's only a clearance test. Exhaust ports will be over SPDIF out and USB3.0 ports, will see if it works...
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:29 am
Posts: 573
Location: de_DE
:shock: Nice 3D puzzle! :lol:
How did you make the cuts for the ATX bracket?

_________________
Lian Li V600, Asus P77Z-M Pro, i5-3570K 4.4GHz with Scythe Orochi, 140mm Slipstream 500RPM and Mugen2 115X Bolt through kit, Evga GTX 970 Superclocked, BeQuiet E9 580W CM/size


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Simple way, since I don't have a milling machine: trace out position of every connector, and then open ports by drilling and precision handfiling. Could have done it "old way" like I did some old builds with precision inner handsaw but it's 3mm alu, a lil' tougher than plastics :mrgreen:
I don't have a welder either so, to make the air duct it's plastics... :wink: and I made it in 2 hours: if it works, why complain? :wink: I care more about functionality than appearance :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:29 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11943
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Wow, that looks really packed! Actual use temperatures will be interesting to monitor.

_________________
Mike Chin,
Editor/Publisher, SPCR
Support SPCR with your donations!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Just finished building the air duct, instant loctite for bottom-to-sides and... american tape :lol: for the top, but it seals well and can be removed if needed.
Have to cable up the HDDs with temp SATA cables to check system working, ultra-short cables are coming next week :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Image Image Image Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:58 am
Posts: 144
Location: Poland
The duct is impressive, however, have you considered putting a single 90* elbow and exhausting the hot air through the top lid? You know, vertically. This would reduce the back-pressure somewhat.

Otherwise, your build is indeed an original design.

_________________
CASE: Antec Solo; MOBO: MSI P67A-C45; CPU: i5 2500K@4.4GHz + Mugen2; RAM: 8GB DDR3 1333MHz; GPU: PowerColor 5750 1GBD5-S3DH passive; PSU: Corsair HX520; SSD: Patriot Inferno 120GB; HDD: Samsung F2 1TB HD103SI; SOUND: Asus Xonar DX; FANS: Slipstream @700RPM exhaust; 2xNexus 92mm @6V intake. DISPLAY: 26" LCD Fujitsu Siemens Amilo SL 3260W


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Could have routed it to the top or to the rear HH slot nearby but being this a 1U solution intended to be stackable with other hifi components I wanted exhaust CPU air to go towards the rear. And with the 45° angled curves turbulence is reduced, I tried putting fan on max speed (5500) with and without duct: fan accelerates slightly (5750) and noise increases little, so it works well, and having the duct two air outlets that paired together make about the fan width (45x12 mm) air output speed is maintained almost constant. Will make an instrumental measuring with my SPL meter :wink:

Opened up exhaust ports and made a little L bracket to keep the duct firmly planted on the fan port
Image

Fully vented cover just arrived :-D had to move the DC IN jack under HH slot opening
Image Image

Note: a typical blower fan spits most of its airflow towards the outer edge of the port, so the 45-deg elbows somewhat "guide" it through in a curved way. Directing towards the top would have raised noise also because of the very near venting holes (can't cut a clear hole, aesthetically awful! :lol:), experimented this with an axial fan placed 2mm under the grille, made A LOT of noise compared to it without cover.

Note 2: I designed a more direct duct too: a single elbow directed towards the HH slot opening, but that would have required setting up expansion cards in a different way: X1 (slot 4, black) to the rightmost DVB-T card, and a X1 (slot 1, blue) to a Pericom dual-PCI riser for the two stacked PCI slots, routing the duct in between towards the rear (took measures and it fit perfectly). But this riser's slots are spaced a little more than I want, 2 mm or so (being it 1U 42mm compliant and my case is 40mm high inside): placing it to get the cover closed would have had the DVB-S card getting too low and more works required to fit it where it is. And I would've had to sacrifice one of the two 2.5" drives mounted side by side, since the riser card is longer due to the Pericom bridge chip placed behind the PCI connectors. Otherwise, placing a low-profile PCI DVB-T card on the top slot and a low-profile Xonar audio card on the rightmost lower slot would've freed up space to place the drive behind the ODD (I had designed it to be ready for this) :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Some readings after 2 hours of idling and Mediaportal: CPU=45C MB=40C HDD0=35C HDD1=40C HDD2=38C FAN=2000 (25% speed), slightly warm air from the exhaust ports.
Installed 2x Hitachi 5K750-640, one's a little hotter because it has the PCH underneath. WD20EARX stays cool as always 8-)
Waiting for ultra-short SATA cables, in the meantime tracing to prepare the front panel :-D

System idles at 42C/1650RPM, ultra quiet. Stress loading brings fan to 50%, still acceptable as for noise, being a server fan.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Modifying the 2.5" bracket to make it symmetrical, without hidden screws and able to act as a cable holder too :wink: but I'll have to make a new power cable
Image Image Image

Placing some USB 3.0 stuff: Lian-li IOH515 with audio.
Image Image

Little holder for the air duct
Image

Will have to tidy up that cables :wink:
Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Finally I was able to tidy up the four 35" (90cm) SAS cables from Lian-li, which have a very small connector that fits well under the 2.5" HDDs, routing them all around the case :lol:

In the meantime, new 2.5" cabling 5V-only :wink:
Image Image

Making the front panel.
Image Image

Cable routing
Image Image Image

Made the fixing points and modified the HH grille to get out the USB3 cables and put up an Esata port :wink:
Image Image

Now only one thing remains... the front plate :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Here we are almost done 8-)
Image Image

Black mask tape for the 1mm of ODD that protrudes into the front panel, I don't want any silver there (ODD bezel is 2mm, front panel 4mm...) :-)
Image

First completed tests :mrgreen:
Image

Have yet to make a slight modification: when it arrives, I'll swap the FDD connector for a standard molex and then I'll use the power adapter for slim-line drives, SATA cable is already positioned to be directly connectable to the SATA rear plug :wink:

Next: wattage and temp/noise tests, ESI audio card tests (have to see if it works, had some little problems with ASIO on the ML03 build... :roll:), if it doesn't I have the good old Phase 22 at hand :-)

Finally... I made A LOT of physical exercise to make that front panel :lol: drill&file a massive 4mm oxidized aluminium panel ain't that simple :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:40 am
Posts: 14
Location: Sweden
Very nice build!

Where did you buy such short sata-cables?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
They ain't short: they're 4 Lian-li ST90 SAS/SATA cables which are 90 cm long, carefully tucked up. :-) the only one which is very short (7.5 cm) is for the WD20EARX and it was taken from an old AC Ryan 5.25 external box.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Finished and placed. :-)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Replaced the two HTS547564A9E384 Hitachi drives with the new WD10JPVT and a recycled WD5000BEVT to match :-) will see how does the JPVT do... the 5000BEVT is one of the last batches from Jul 11 with a slightly different top cover, from tests last year it's cooler and quieter than previous 5000BEVT drives from 2010.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
Testing WD10JPVT along with a very nice Seagate ST9750420AS, new SATA short cabling and will try a fanless 2120T CPU next week :-D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:53 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:50 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Wow, amazing work. I am truly inspired. So, working with aluminum is that easy? If you had to cut a rectangular hole for an optical drive tray - 5.25" wide and perfectly tru/parallel/etc, you would do it by hand? I am contemplating cutting such a hole in a defunct power amp, to convert it into a HTPC chassis. But I only get 1 chance to get it right!

Alternately, I have though about making my own panel from 0.25" thick black acrylic sheet. That would be much easier to cut w/hand tools. And when lightly sanded it looks just like brushed aluminum.

Image

_________________
it's the only jib I got, baby


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Full D.I.Y. mATX slim-line HTPC
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 2:54 am
Posts: 197
Location: Northern Italy
If you have adequate dexterity with hand/power tools you can make almost everything you want... Using a classic electric jigsaw to cut small holes on these panels I wouldn't recommend it, since it's big for these, maybe something like a Dremel. Or you can do it by hand and gradually like me: first trace the exact size of hole, then remove most of the inner but not til the edge you just traced (i.e. for slimline ODDs, hole's 128mm wide by 13mm high: drill 11-12mm max or if you're not skilled at precision tracing, 10mm) if it's an inner hole I usually drill out the most (less fatigue than inner saw, esp. with thick panels), then join holes to make a rough "window" and finally file to match, first medium-big sized file to level the holes you drilled, then medium, then small precision smooth for definitive result. Tip: as you move the file back and forth, move it from left to right too (i.e. in a diagonal way), that helps to obtain a smoother surface (closer to the straight line you traced). Always use a flat file for this, square then flat to get smooth corners (square files tend to always leave a slightly curved corner).

PS: today I swapped out the i3-2100 for a cooler i3-2120T 8-)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group