Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

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mc.god
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Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:23 am

Hallo guys, nice to meet all of you.
I've been lurkin around the site and forum for long time, they gave me a lot of knowledge and helped me in many decisions, like choosing my fantstic Scythe Kotetsu.

I had the setup in signature for one year now, and it's time to make some little changes in order to optimize more its "sound".
Normally I keep all the fan at minimum speed, except the front in, since the case doesn't have a dedicated aperture for it and it take air just from a tiny perimetral grill.

Here is what I'm thinking to do:
1) I'm going to replace the two Aerocool Lightining on the top (economic sleeve bearing led fans placed horizontally, they are quiet but have poor speed scaling and vibrate a lot). Since I don't mind about the leds and don't want to spend too much, I'm thinking of buying a couple of beQuiet Pure Wings 2 140 for €9,90 each, Do you think it's a good choice?

2) The side fan. It's a high performance 140 mm fan (800-1500 pm), I keep it always at 850-900 rpm to aid the little air that arrives from the front fan passing the hdd cage, and I pump it up just when gaming for beter cooling the GTX770. Its noise is tremendously affected by the metal grill on the panel, I tried putting some rubber spacers and it got a little better but not too much, so I'm going to cut off that grill, since i have a Silverstone magnetic filter on it too.

3) The biggest problem, the PSU Fan, that is noisy even with pc in idle and becomes annoying when load start to increase. I searched the web a lot about it and saw that this is a very common problem, expecially with the high rpm ADDA fans like that of mine XFX, so I'm thinking about changing the fan. Since I'd like to hear your opinion about some specific details, I'm going to make a dedicated topic in appropriare section when I have a bit more of time.

Sorry for the WoT, see you soon silence enthusiasts :wink:

quest_for_silence
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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:14 pm

mc.god wrote:Do you think it's a good choice?

Who knows? Surely it shouldn't be that bad.
Usually those fans seem to shine most at the highest speed, while otherwise they are on the weak side: they should have a rather high minimum (500rpm), but they also should sound pleasantly at any speed. The price is rather good.

mc.god wrote:so I'm going to cut off that grill, since i have a Silverstone magnetic filter on it too.

What about putting that fan on the case floor, right in front of the PSU? I'd try that at first, before cutting any grille (though cutting restrictive grille is always a good measure).

mc.god wrote:so I'm thinking about changing the fan.

A fan swap with a slower but with a similar starting voltage fan is beneficial (you'll loose the warranty, anyway), but with Seasonic designs the problem is often the conservative (aggressive) fan profile. How did you mount the PSU, with the fan facing towards up or down? And what about cutting the relevant case grille?

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:51 am

Hi, thanks for your hints.
quest_for_silence wrote:Who knows? Surely it shouldn't be that bad.
Usually those fans seem to shine most at the highest speed, while otherwise they are on the weak side: they should have a rather high minimum (500rpm), but they also should sound pleasantly at any speed. The price is rather good.

Obviously I read the specs and some reviews of those fans, and they should be a good fit. The present Aeroccol Lightnig are rated at 1200 rpm max, but in horizontal position they barely reach 1000, don't slow down under 660-700 and produce some vibrations (due to the sleeve bearing I suppose). My rig doesn't produce too much amount of heat, and since i'm going to install a couple of them on top plus the F12 at rear, I just need something that can be set at about 500 rpm (increasing them during gaming) and can work better in horizontal position.
quest_for_silence wrote:What about putting that fan on the case floor, right in front of the PSU? I'd try that at first, before cutting any grille (though cutting restrictive grille is always a good measure).

Interesting option. The bottom fan slot is the only one i never considered using since my PSU is rather long and not modular, so I use that space to fit all the unused cables, Moreover, the arrangement is for a 120mm fan, so I can't fit the Aeroccol Shark 140 and it hase the exactr same type of grill as the side panel, so i suppose it would affect the fan at the same manner. Ostrog is a great case for 40€, but still remain a 40€ case, so you obviuosly have to deal with some limitations.
quest_for_silence wrote:A fan swap with a slower but with a similar starting voltage fan is beneficial (you'll loose the warranty, anyway), but with Seasonic designs the problem is often the conservative (aggressive) fan profile. How did you mount the PSU, with the fan facing towards up or down? And what about cutting the relevant case grille?
The PSU is mounted with fan facing down, getting air from the specific filterd grille. Cutting that grill is an option, but in this case the nois isn't much from turbulence, I tested it with the PSU out of the case and all other fans stopped, and that noise is always there. I suppose it's preciselt from the fan mechanics, probably the ball bearing, I made this video some times ago trying to document the noise:

https://youtu.be/5_pDcog0szY

I was thinking swapping the fan with a 140mm and here is the first problem, since the PSU mounts a 135mm fan in a dedicated bracket, so I'm not sure if a 140mm can fit, but it should. After reading meny tests and review, I restricted the choice between two mid-high rpm models, with low starting voltage and non-sleeve bearing:
- Noiseblocker Black Silent PRO PK3: 800-1700 rpm, low noise, 180.000h MTBF, low power consumption, 17€
- NXZT FX 140LB: 1000-2000 rpm (more similar to original fan), a bit noisier, 35.000h MTBF (strangely low for a FDB), power consumption higher than original fan, discontinued from nxzt, 15€
I would connect it with a 3 pin - 2 pin adaptor and, yes, I'll void the warranty, no problem for me.

I'd like to ask your opinion about it, if someone already swapped fan in a XFX Pro psu with that bracket could confirm fitting a 140mm fan or any other issue, hint, tips you may know.
Thank you :)

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by quest_for_silence » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:15 am

mc.god wrote:the bottom fan slot is the only one i never considered using since my PSU is rather long and not modular, so I use that space to fit all the unused cables, Moreover, the arrangement is for a 120mm fan, so I can't fit the Aeroccol Shark 140 and it hase the exactr same type of grill as the side panel, so i suppose it would affect the fan at the same manner. Ostrog is a great case for 40€, but still remain a 40€ case, so you obviuosly have to deal with some limitations.

Well, if I were you I'd try to put your F12 (or the original back fan) in that place to see whether it could work better than the side 14cm one, with reference to the GPU temp. In the meantime I would test any fan you had on the side panel, as the interaction with a grille may change dramatically depending of the blade profiles.

About the 14cm Shark fan, another option, given the drive cage is removable, is trying to put it there with zip-ties or similar solutions: if it's possible, surely that fan won't suck fresh air (even if there's the front one not too far to feed it), but the airflow should be noticeable all around the GPU card (and the fan shouldn't deal with the grille).

mc.god wrote:since the PSU mounts a 135mm fan in a dedicated bracket, so I'm not sure if a 140mm can fit, but it should.

It should: nominal 14cm fans are almost always 135mm ones, actually.

mc.god wrote:After reading meny tests and review, I restricted the choice between two mid-high rpm models, with low starting voltage and non-sleeve bearing:
- Noiseblocker Black Silent PRO PK3: 800-1700 rpm, low noise, 180.000h MTBF, low power consumption, 17€
- NXZT FX 140LB: 1000-2000 rpm (more similar to original fan), a bit noisier, 35.000h MTBF (strangely low for a FDB), power consumption higher than original fan, discontinued from nxzt, 15€

Personally I would use a slower fan, a 1200-1300rpm one, due to the supposedly aggressive fan profile built-in the PSU controller.

mc.god wrote:I would connect it with a 3 pin - 2 pin adaptor and, yes, I'll void the warranty, no problem for me.

On Seasonic-branded PSUs usually you don't need any adapter (and I would avoid having other wires lying around the cramped space of the PSU housing), just gently pop up the fan socket with a small screwdriver, and then connect the 3-pin connectors to the naked header respecting the original polarity (the yellow wire will be free). I think your XFX PSU could be quite the same.

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:21 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:Well, if I were you I'd try to put your F12 (or the original back fan) in that place to see whether it could work better than the side 14cm one, with reference to the GPU temp. In the meantime I would test any fan you had on the side panel, as the interaction with a grille may change dramatically depending of the blade profiles.

About the 14cm Shark fan, another option, given the drive cage is removable, is trying to put it there with zip-ties or similar solutions: if it's possible, surely that fan won't suck fresh air (even if there's the front one not too far to feed it), but the airflow should be noticeable all around the GPU card (and the fan shouldn't deal with the grille).
All interesting options. If I can manage the psu cables in another way, testing a 12 cm fan on bottom (switching off the side fan) would not be a problem since I have a couple of old spare fans. Swapping the 140mm Shark with the internal drive cage would be a bit much work to rearrange the rig, the biggest problem is that I haven't much spare time to dedicate to testing, so I'll keep this in standby at the moment.
quest_for_silence wrote:It should: nominal 14cm fans are almost always 135mm ones, actually.
Glad to hearing it.
quest_for_silence wrote:Personally I would use a slower fan, a 1200-1300rpm one, due to the supposedly aggressive fan profile built-in the PSU controller.
in a review of the psu I found these values:
Image

Do you think that 1200 rpm could be enough for cooling the psu at full load? It's only an 80+ bronze, I wouldn't want it to overheat, expecially now that we are going toward summer, moreover my room is a bit warm (no conditioning :\ ). A classic Bitfenix Pro 140 (14€) starting at 5V could make for it? Or maybe a 1500rpm model like the Silverstone AP141 (dunno how the air concentrator would behave into a psu, very attractive price of 11,50€)?
quest_for_silence wrote:On Seasonic-branded PSUs usually you don't need any adapter (and I would avoid having other wires lying around the cramped space of the PSU housing), just gently pop up the fan socket with a small screwdriver, and then connect the 3-pin connectors to the naked header respecting the original polarity (the yellow wire will be free). I think your XFX PSU could be quite the same.
Ok, I saw this procedure, I'll try it for sure, but I'll order an adapter anyway, just in case ;)
Thank you again .
Last edited by mc.god on Tue May 05, 2015 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by quest_for_silence » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:15 am

mc.god wrote:Do you think that 1200 rpm could be enough for cooling the psu at full load? It's only an 80+ bronze, I wouldn't want it to overheat, expecially now that we are going toward summer, moreover my room is a bit warm (no conditioning :\ ).

I'm quite confident there should be no issue using a slower fan (I mean with 1000-1300rpm nominal speed: I run a probably less efficient EarthWatt 380 since more than five years with a less than half-speed Noctua without problems), but that's me (and I don't take any liability for what other people do) so, if you don't feel comfortable with it, do what you think best.

mc.god wrote:A classic Bitfenix Pro 140 (14€) starting at 5V could make for it? Or maybe a 1500rpm model like the Silverstone AP141 (dunno how the air concentrator would behave into a psu, very attractive price of 11,50€)? Enermax Cluster (pwm, 600-1400, 14€) - Cluster Advance (pwm, 600-1500, 16€)?

Currently I don't know the starting voltage of the 0.44A stock ADDA fan, but at any rate I don't think you should use PWM fans in that PSU: at least, the ADDA shouldn't be PWM, right?

Broadly speaking I would look for an high flow (at the above mentioned speed, 1000-1300rpm) fan (maybe some fan tests carried on the italian website coolingtechnique.com may help about that): on the other hand, about those fans you quoted, often Silverstone ones doesn't have a particularly smooth noise profile (but I don't know the AP141), while the batwing blades in my own experience (Magma and Cluster) don't cope well with restrictive fan grilles (maybe due to some particular blade resonance frequency, I mean, when the fan works as intake).

I think you may try your side Shark fan right now, first of all to directly check the actual PSU brackets clearance, and then to be reassured that in case you won't trip the OTP with a slower fan: another option you might consider with any fan (maybe even the stock ADDA one) is the classical Noctua adapter.

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:10 am

quest_for_silence wrote:I'm quite confident there should be no issue using a slower fan (I mean with 1000-1300rpm nominal speed: I run a probably less efficient EarthWatt 380 since more than five years with a less than half-speed Noctua without problems), but that's me (and I don't take any liability for what other people do) so, if you don't feel comfortable with it, do what you think best.

Everything I'll do will be obviuosly my personal choice, but since it's the first time I'm going to change a psu fan, hearing from your personal exprience is a great added value and the reason why I'm here asking.
quest_for_silence wrote:Currently I don't know the starting voltage of the 0.44A stock ADDA fan, but at any rate I don't think you should use PWM fans in that PSU: at least, the ADDA shouldn't be PWM, right?
No, ADDA fan isn't pwm and for this reason I later removed the Enermax from my post, probably you didn't notice in time ^^
quest_for_silence wrote:Broadly speaking I would look for an high flow (at the above mentioned speed, 1000-1300rpm) fan (maybe some fan tests carried on the italian website coolingtechnique.com may help about that) while about those fans you quoted, usually Silverstone ones doesn't have a particularly smooth noise profile (but I don't know the AP141), while the batwing blades in my own experience (Magma and Cluster) don't cope well with restrictive fan grilles (maybe due to some particular blade resonance frequency), I mean, when the fan works as intake.

I think you may try your side Shark fan right now, first of all to directly check the actual PSU brackets clearance, and then to be reassured that in case you won't trip the OTP with a slower fan: another option you might consider with any fan (maybe even the stock ADDA one) is the classical Noctua adapter.
Yeah, coolingtechnique.com is a really good source of info :wink: What you say about batwing blades is interesting, probably it's similar to the resonance i get with the Shark fan behind the grill, since it has those peculiar "sharkfin" blades. This and the fact that the fan starts up at 6 volts restrained me from keeping it as a choiche for the psu, but myabe I can go with it for a brief test.
Drako.it isn't working atm, but I think it was the LNA\ULNA adapter, right? In that casi, I already have the 12V->7V adapter coming wuith the Shark and a 12V->7V,5V coming with the Silverstone AP121 that can come in handy.

I'll continue with the research, thanks a lot again.

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:26 am

mc.god wrote:the fact that the fan starts up at 6 volts restrained me from keeping it as a choiche for the psu, but myabe I can go with it for a brief test.

According to my sources, ~6V should likely be the starting voltage of the stock ADDA ADN512UB-A90 PSU fan, and that's another check you can make with the Shark fan (if that fan actually started, then you could better assess which fan you might use as replacement: I mean, one with a convenient/suitable speed/flow/noise at 6-7V, disregarding the below that value behaviour, unless you wanted to drive the new fan by a mobo's header).

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:02 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
mc.god wrote:the fact that the fan starts up at 6 volts restrained me from keeping it as a choiche for the psu, but myabe I can go with it for a brief test.

According to my sources, ~6V should likely be the starting voltage of the stock ADDA ADN512UB-A90 PSU fan, and that's another check you can make with the Shark fan (if that fan actually started, then you could better assess which fan you might use as replacement: I mean, one with a convenient/suitable speed/flow/noise at 6-7V, disregarding the below that value behaviour, unless you wanted to drive the new fan by a mobo's header).
Perfect, what you're saying is flawless, I will definitely start testing the Shark fan with the psu, so I'll be able to get rid of some uncertainty and, who knows, it could even turn out that it's a good match in the psu. I just need to find the time to do it.
Anyway, since the changes you proposed (bottom fan or another front fan removing the hadd cage) are impraticable (unless I rearrange many components and cables, and I don't want atm), even in case the Shark should remain into the psu, I will swap it with a new (more silent) one on the side panel, so the very first thing I'm going to do now is cutting that infamous grill from the side panel. I just tested it with a couple of different 120mm old fans and it affects them too as much as the Shark, generating an horrible whining noise :evil:

I'll keep you updated, cheers.

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:47 pm

mc.god wrote:I just tested it with a couple of different 120mm old fans and it affects them too as much as the Shark, generating an horrible whining noise

Set aside which fans they are, try those fans even as exhaust, don't give for granted it had to be mandatorily an intake.

Meanwhile, have a good luck!

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:01 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:Set aside which fans they are, try those fans even as exhaust, don't give for granted it had to be mandatorily an intake.
Are you saying to test the side panel fan as exhaust instaed as intake? In this case I'd have 4 exhaust fan and just one 120mm intake (filtered, partially obstructed by the hdd cage and behind a semi-closed front panel...), so a negative air pressure setup for sure. Well. why not, everything is worth trying.

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:21 am

mc.god wrote:In this case I'd have 4 exhaust fan and just one 120mm intake (filtered, partially obstructed by the hdd cage and behind a semi-closed front panel...), so a negative air pressure setup for sure.

You'd have a negative pressure setup anyway (2 intakes, 3 exhaust fans): and don't forget a new wire grille for the side panel.

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:41 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:You'd have a negative pressure setup anyway (2 intakes, 3 exhaust fans): and don't forget a new wire grille for the side panel.
You're right, normally the case should have negative pressure, but since either the intake fans can reach over 1500rpm, I can play around with the fan controller and probably manage to get positive pressure too. Just for fun :lol:
I'm not planning to put any new wire grill on the side panel since I already have this on it http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=339

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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:34 am

Here I am again for a brief update.
Probably I'll get the side grill removed by today or tomorrow. For this purpose i removed the Shark fan from the panel and did a little test on it:
1) the fan can start flawlessly at 5V, so it should be ok for the PSU
(tested with a usb-fan adapter cable I made to attach a fan to the usb port on my router and cooling it https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5vdhqsdrf4ry2l/01.jpg?dl=0 ).

2) sadly, despite it's FDB, it vibrates and makes a rattling noise when put horizontally blowing upward, at least at 5V (in any other position it's pretty quiet even though it always vibrates a bit). I'll check at higher speeds this evening, if confirmed it won't be a good option as PSU fan. In that case, or in case a 140mm fan not fitting the psu bracket, I'm looking at the Zalman ZM-F4, since it is real 135mm, staerts a t low voltage, spins between 900-1300 rpm and with advanced sleev bearing they say it can work fine horizontally. The only issue are the 120mm mounting holes that will require alternative fastening ways, like zip-ties or something. Do you think it could be valid choice?


Anyway, I hope I'll have time to check for real with the psu in the upcoming long weekend, I'll let you know.
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Re: Hallo guys, it' time for "sound" optimization!

Post by mc.god » Fri May 01, 2015 2:59 pm

I finally swapped the PSU fan with the Shark and can say that I'm halfway satisfied of the result.
First of all, the 140mm Shark didn't fit into the metallic bracket of the psu so I had to remove it and place the fan directly to the metallic cover of the psu, that is instead just a bit more than 140mm large. The fan almost wedjed in it without any retention, since i pressed it's large sleeved cable between the fan and the metallic side of the cover, anyway I fixed the fan placing some patafix (similar to blu-tac) on the corners.
The 2 pin plastic connector came off without problems from the pcb and the 3 pin connector of the Shark went in pretty well and steady.

Well, about the result, the system is moderately quieter but not as much as I hoped. Maybe I could use a quieter fan as suggested here, but I noticed that the "problem" isn't completely of the fan itself but of the combination of it with the psu chassis and the case.
Testing the the Adda fan in open air , it resulted less noisy than I expected, at the same time the Shark fan, placed into the psu chassis, produced more noise, and similar to what i was always hearing from the psu, so I can suppose that the first cause of it is the aperture grill of the psu itself, that is directly extruded in the metallic cover, with the addition of the grill on the bottom of tha case (the same as the side panel, so I already know that it generates bad noise).
So i think that even with a more silent fan it can't be too much better, unless removing all that infamous grills. Maybe i will try it when i'll buy the appropriate tools (for the side panel I just asked to a professional), for the moment it's all. I think...


[EDIT]
At a mor accurate check, it turned out that now I can hear the noise of the idle vga (3x 80mm fan at 1150 rpm) and the 2 hdd drive, not only the psu as before, so I think this is nearly the lowest noise level I can get from this system without substancial changes. Since I'm not sarching for a completeley quiet pc, I think I'll keep it as it is for the time being.

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