New computer in R5

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God Of Atheism
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New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Fri May 08, 2015 10:17 pm

I've been lurking here from time to time, especially whenever I needed to buy some new part or build a computer for someone, but now is the time for a post.

My current computer is:
Antec Sonata (III? don't remember which)
Gigabyte GA-MA790XT-UD4P
Seasonic SII-500
AMD Athlon II x2 245
Arctic Cooling freezer 7 (I think. might be rev something or pro)
Sapphire 7850 Dual X 2GB
Western Digital 1GB WDC WD10EADS-65M2B0
Seagate 1.5GB ST31500341AS (the type that had a lot of problems at the time, I also had to replace the one I bought because of clicking)
2x2GB RAM 1600Mhz (don't remember which type)
Crucial MX100 256GB Crucial_CT256MX100SSD1
Scythe Slipstream 120mm (medium speed I think)

I want to buy something new:
Fractal Design Define R5
Seasonic platinum 660
Xeon E3-1231v3
2x8GB RAM 1600Mhz 1.35V
Graphics card and hard disks will move over

I'm not yet set on cpu cooler, motherboard and ram.
Either go with the cheapest ATX (not micro ATX) Z97 Asus or Gigabyte (or something else if I find something both cheap and probably decent quality) motherboard, or go the ECC route and buy a Supermicro motherboard. The issue is of course that these are about twice as expensive (other C222/C224/C226 motherboards are not available here), in addition to the ECC memory itself being about 25% more expensive here. I might in the near future move to a ZFS raid setup and ECC is more or less a must for that, still it's a lot of extra money.
What would be a good cpu cooler in this case? I usually buy Arctic Cooling for decent performance and price, but am considering now buying something a bit more expensive.

I assume from this that I won't need an extra case fan, right?

With regards to the psu, I think this is one of the best for idle efficiency (and for load of course as well), even if it looks like overkill. But I'm not sure, what kind of idle wattage can I expect from my components?

CA_Steve
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Sat May 09, 2015 11:07 am

Welcome to SPCR.

Scythe Kotetsu is best in class for price/thermal/noise.

Two fans is fine. Go with three if you want positive pressure.

Your idle power will be in the 35-55W range, depending on whether or not the HDDs are idle...and if you run with more than one monitor, the 7850 doesn't idle the memory clock, so that'll add another 15+ watts. Your stressed load power is less than 250W. So, you can easily drop down to a 500-550W class PSU.

quest_for_silence
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat May 09, 2015 1:52 pm

God Of Atheism wrote:Xeon E3-1231v3

A Core i7 - 5775C would be IMO preferable (it should be on sale from about the 15th may IIRC).

God Of Atheism wrote:Graphics card and hard disks will move over

Particularly the HDDs are old, and so neither extremely reliable, nor very competitive (either quietness-wise or performance-wise): something like the relatively cheap 1TB-platter WD Green disks would be much less audible and more performing than your current panoply.

God Of Atheism wrote:Either go with the cheapest ATX (not micro ATX) Z97 Asus or Gigabyte

I've just set up a relatively cheap gaming rig with the ASUS H97 Plus, it has pretty much everything necessary for silencing and oc'ing at a very competitive price for the features. If you wanna go along the "Z" route, IMO the ASRock Killer is one of the best options with reference to performance/price ratio.

God Of Atheism wrote:What would be a good cpu cooler in this case? I usually buy Arctic Cooling for decent performance and price, but am considering now buying something a bit more expensive.

There's plenty of options, Steve already adviced for a very good one: give a look to the recently revamped SPCR recommended list.

God Of Atheism wrote:With regards to the psu, I think this is one of the best for idle efficiency (and for load of course as well), even if it looks like overkill. But I'm not sure, what kind of idle wattage can I expect from my components?

If silence is paramount, a quieter model may be preferable, and even efficiency-wise it ends mixed against several units, with some Gold-rated ones which can bests it at low-to-mid loads.
Otherwise, whether build quality really matters for you, it's one of the best units available.

God Of Atheism
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Sun May 10, 2015 9:09 am

Thanks,

I'll go with the Kotetsu.

With regards to the old hard disks: although they're about the same age, the WD drive spent quite some time stored and both seems to be and should be in a much better condition than the other one.
The Smart data gives the seagate one offline uncorrectable error which is bad. The WD drive has a load cycle count of 738269, which apparently is more than the twice the number it is rated for.

I'll check the psu some more.

I'll wait for that 5775c to come out, but I expect it to be quite a bit more expensive than the e3-1231v3, and I also expect lower performance from it due to the smaller L3 cache (but I don't know how the eDram will factor in there). At load it will of course be cooler, but the idle difference is more interesting.

quest_for_silence
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by quest_for_silence » Sun May 10, 2015 12:04 pm

God Of Atheism wrote:The WD drive has a load cycle count of 738269, which apparently is more than the twice the number it is rated for.

Didn't you use wdidle3? Anyway, given the reasonable quotation of Green drives, if I were you I would pick new, fresh drives, for the already mentioned reasons.

God Of Atheism wrote:I'll wait for that 5775c to come out, but I expect it to be quite a bit more expensive than the e3-1231v3, and I also expect lower performance from it due to the smaller L3 cache (but I don't know how the eDram will factor in there)

Broadwell should have some advantages due to the 14nm fab process: and, for the record, from chinese sources, apparently Intel rate it as faster than the Core i7 4790 (and so it should be faster than its Xeon counterpart):

Image

God Of Atheism
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Tue May 12, 2015 8:08 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
God Of Atheism wrote:The WD drive has a load cycle count of 738269, which apparently is more than the twice the number it is rated for.

Didn't you use wdidle3? Anyway, given the reasonable quotation of Green drives, if I were you I would pick new, fresh drives, for the already mentioned reasons.
I wasn't aware of the issue, so did not use it.

I did more research into all the smart data, and it seems as if the Seagate drive might fail any moment. I think I have everything backed up to an external drive.
For a new spinning rust drive, silence/performance/reliability wise, which is best? Is there a difference between different hard disk sizes within certain product lines?

With regards to motherboard, is there a lot of difference between Gigabyte GA-Z97-D3H and GA-Z97-UD3H? Is the latter worth 34% more (which is the price difference at the moment here)?

At a motherboard tier list in the forum of another website (I don't know if I'm allowed to mention/link it here), they're listed in different tiers with regards to build quality. Still, assuming I'm not going to overclock, the former seems good enough.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed May 13, 2015 4:11 am

God Of Atheism wrote:For a new spinning rust drive, silence/performance/reliability wise, which is best? Is there a difference between different hard disk sizes within certain product lines?

Yes, there may be differences, but you should check on case-by-case basis.
To answer to your question: I don't know which is the best, the WD Greens (2-4TB, pay attention some 3TB have old gen platters) are what I'd use without many worries about (obviously, disable the auto-parking feature with wdidle3).

God Of Atheism wrote:With regards to motherboard, is there a lot of difference between Gigabyte GA-Z97-D3H and GA-Z97-UD3H? Is the latter worth 34% more (which is the price difference at the moment here)?

I don't know anything different from what Gigabyte itself states: at any rate, check their UEFI, usually Gigabyte isn't that much silencer-friendly.

CA_Steve
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Wed May 13, 2015 6:39 am

quest_for_silence wrote:I don't know anything different from what Gigabyte itself states: at any rate, check their UEFI, usually Gigabyte isn't that much silencer-friendly.
Their UEFI-based fan control is sad. The s/w-based fan control is similar to Fan Xpert.

http://www.gigabyte.us/products/compari ... =5359,5101

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Thu May 14, 2015 1:22 am

I will be using linux, so neither Asus Fan Xpert nor Gigabyte System Information Viewer nor Speedfan will be available, and although there is a program fancontrol, it might not work with the motherboard I'll choose. So I guess I have to really depend on the UEFI.

So if Gigabyte is out, which one is best in that regard? Asus, MSI, Asrock?

According to another site which has return rates of components from some big retailer, in general with regards to reliabilty, Gigabyte>MSI>Asus>Asrock, where ">" stands for "is more reliable than".

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu May 14, 2015 1:52 am

God Of Atheism wrote:So if Gigabyte is out, which one is best in that regard? Asus, MSI, Asrock?

With 3-pin case fans like your Slipstreams, the most flexible UEFI hardware monitor are usually those coming from ASUS and ASRock.
To be fair, I was repeatedly told by our co-forumer Abula that with 4-pin PWM case fans MSI UEFI is more flexible than ASUS and ASRock ones, but I cannot directly confirm this info.

God Of Atheism wrote:According to another site which has return rates of components from some big retailer, in general with regards to reliabilty, Gigabyte>MSI>Asus>Asrock, where ">" stands for "is more reliable than".

In the about last ten years, I've never had an ASUS or ASRock mobo early failure, but broadly speaking I don't usually trust those unverifiable ranks (though linking will be appreciated, I'm not that comfortable commenting infos I can't actually read).

God Of Atheism
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Thu May 14, 2015 3:59 am

The other site has information on Z97 motherboards here, and general motherboards here. The percentages are the return rates (the higher the worse).

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu May 14, 2015 6:33 am

God Of Atheism wrote:The other site has information on Z97 motherboards here, and general motherboards here. The percentages are the return rates (the higher the worse).

So you're from France, right? :mrgreen:

Well, return rates does not explain why the customers returned the goods, and this is the first caveat emptor: besides, from the text I didn't understand if those rates were normalized or not.
Said that, as you can see, there are lots of interesting details: lots of "high" returns models are either referred to AMD boards (hot CPUs with unlocked multiplier paired often with cheap power circuitries), or extremely cheap mobos (the Mate series from MSI, for instance) / overclocking ones (more likely to be abused by users)... if I can take the liberty, your conclusion about reliability by brands seems to me a bit hasty, even if Gigabyte has a long tradition in making good motherboards, but I say so just for the sake of talking.

BTW, one the most interesting detail in those ranks is the lowest return rate among PSUs: CM B and G, Corsair CX... some of the worst (quality and performance wise) branded units in the market... :wink:

God Of Atheism
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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Thu May 14, 2015 10:47 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
God Of Atheism wrote:The other site has information on Z97 motherboards here, and general motherboards here. The percentages are the return rates (the higher the worse).

So you're from France, right? :mrgreen: {/quote]

Nope, but I do know a bit of French. I got to that site via BeHardware which used to exist as a separate site in English.
quest_for_silence wrote:Well, return rates does not explain why the customers returned the goods, and this is the first caveat emptor: besides, from the text I didn't understand if those rates were normalized or not.
Said that, as you can see, there are lots of interesting details: lots of "high" returns models are either referred to AMD boards (hot CPUs with unlocked multiplier paired often with cheap power circuitries), or extremely cheap mobos (the Mate series from MSI, for instance) / overclocking ones (more likely to be abused by users)... if I can take the liberty, your conclusion about reliability by brands seems to me a bit hasty, even if Gigabyte has a long tradition in making good motherboards, but I say so just for the sake of talking.

BTW, one the most interesting detail in those ranks is the lowest return rate among PSUs: CM B and G, Corsair CX... some of the worst (quality and performance wise) branded units in the market... :wink:
What do you mean with normalized? They only take models which sold at least X units into account (or there would no doubt be some with a 100% return rate).

It's very likely that when people buy lower end stuff they won't bother to return it since they'll most likely not be aware of it being faulty. I had it with the powersupply in my first pc, it was faulty, but I wasn't aware of it. Only when I moved a few years later, and got electricity sockets with ground did I notice something was wrong. Then, when turning on the computer the electricity would turn off due to a leak. I opened the psu to see if there was anything I might be able to fix, but saw nothing obviously wrong. Later on I learned that touching the capacitors should probably have killed me, but thanks to them leaking did not.

But back to motherboard choice, what do you think of the Asrock Extreme 4?

On another note, about memory, I thought of buying G.Skill Aegis low voltage (1.35V) 1600MHz. Now I saw for a much lower price Kingston HyperX Savage at 2400MHz and 1.5V, however when looking into that memory I saw that the advertising was at least misleading, The memory in question could both reach 2400MHz and 1.5V, but the former was at 1.65V and the latter at 1600MHz.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu May 14, 2015 12:57 pm

God Of Atheism wrote:What do you mean with normalized?

Mainly I mean that the statistically representative samples usually are not scale-invariant, so often some form of normalization is required.

God Of Atheism wrote:what do you think of the Asrock Extreme 4?

Nice features, above average quality, solid performances, for a good price: it is a good top midrange motherboard for single graphics rigs.
Take note there's a new revision, with USB 3.1 ports.

God Of Atheism wrote:On another note, about memory

Performance wise the sweet spot is usually referred to the 1866MHz mark: take note that I don't know any 1.35V DIMM rated for that speed (but only below), as well as any 1.5V DIMM rated above the mentioned 1866MHz level (from 2000MHz and above the standard voltage is 1.6/1.65V).

Personally I won't be worried about going for a 1600MHz RAM, like the G.Skill Ares F3-1600C9D-8GAB/F3-1600C9D-8GAO, as well as I would likely buy slightly more performing DIMMs, like either the G.Skill Ares F3-1866C9D-8GAB or the G.Skill Ares F3-1600C8D-8GAB, if the relevant pricing were favourable.
With reference to Kingston, given some their deceptive behaviours in the past, I don't buy their products: if I preferred a tier-1 vendor, I'd go for Crucial.
But that's just me.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Thu May 14, 2015 1:28 pm

+1 on 1600-1866 speed memory. Be sure to by stuff that will fit (have clearances with your cooler).

Kingston as a brand has pretty low defect rates.

Note that there is no separation in those stats between defective part returns and defective customer returns :)

Asrock has decent UEFI based fan controls. The Extreme4 seems to have a lot of negative reviews...the Pro4 or Fatality1 boards are better rated.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu May 14, 2015 2:29 pm

CA_Steve wrote:The Extreme4 seems to have a lot of negative reviews...the Pro4 or Fatality1 boards are better rated.

Good catch, Steve, as in this case NewEgg's feedbacks are actually useful, because lots of the low ratings seem due to the same (or similar) issue (maybe a weak 24-pin connector?): it may be interesting searching mobos with a fair number of reviews and ratings > 4 eggs in order to compare them (to the OP: take note that even some H97 can overclock, if you may be interested into that).

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Thu May 14, 2015 3:14 pm

Crowdsourcing can be useful...I tend to sort for the 4+ stars (ignoring those with low counts) and then drill down to see which devices have the least negative reviews. Sometimes the problems are just early customers suffering thru crappy release firmware issues...sometimes it's a poorly designed board. In one case (WD Red hard drives), it was shipping method of one etailer vs the other causing one to show really high initial failure rates and the other having none.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Tue May 19, 2015 10:00 am

So I checked a bit more and am now even less sure which motherboard to buy. I compared both Amazon and Newegg comments, and overall Gigabyte does seem to have the best quality control. However, for all companies, including Gigabyte, it seems a lot of hit and miss.

With regard to the Kingston memory advertising, I must emphasize that it was the retailer who advertised wrong, not Kingston in this case. However, this was far from the only retailer to list the wrong voltage for Kingston XMP memory. When you look at the Kingston datasheet, the JEDEC voltage of 1.5V sort of jumps at you, as does the XMP speed, the XMP voltage doesn't. However, many other brands seem to suffer from this same issue.

I've seen some memory at 1866 Mhz at 1.5V, but indeed no higher speeds.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Tue May 19, 2015 10:27 am

I'd still lean toward MSI or Asrock just for the UEFI fan controls. As for 1 and 2 star reviews, another gotcha is the review date - there are always lots of poor reviews by the early adopters - because firmware at intro is always buggy. If you want to do a deeper dive - discount any low reviews in the first few months.

Oh, you might want to wander phoronix.com - there might be some decent linux-board referrals there..some boards might be more linux friendly than others (availability of drivers, etc).

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:14 am

I put the new computer on hold, but now it's really time to change the computer.

The configuration changes a bit though. First of all, I'm opting for a smaller case and use a microATX board. In addition, I've now selected a Skylake i5 processor which changes other stuff as well.

(I'm not sure if I should open a new topic or just keep the same, even if the case, the only component mentioned in the title, changes. If it should be a new topic, then mods please move this post to a new topic)

The setup will now be:
Fractal Design Define Mini
Intel core i5 6500
Scythe Ninja 4
Asrock Z170M-Pro4S
Kingston HyperX Fury 2400MHz CL15 DDR4
Western Digital Se 2TB

Brought over from previous computer:
Sapphire 7850 Dual X 2GB
Crucial MX100 256GB
Optical drive (not sure about the exact type, dvd writer made by LG supporting M discs)

Unsure:
Powersupply
Extra case fan

I know the harddisk is not optimal silence wise, but it should give a bit more performance and reliability than a wd red disk. I thought about going RAID1 with a red and a seagate nas disk, but that will come out quite a bit more expensive. This disk is in between the cheap (single wd red) and expensive (wd red + seagate nasdrive) and the 5 year warranty is good for the peace of mind.

I'm not sure whether I need an extra case fan, and even less where to put it (there are quite a few slots), but summer temperatures can get quite high (quite often over 35 degrees Celsius and occasionally hitting 40), especially if I leave my computer on and turn the airconditioning off, as happens regularly when leaving the house.

I thought to have settled on an Antec Edge 550 for PSU, but after turned out the shop from which I'm ordering does not have it until in a few weeks, I started looking around and also reading more reviews. Some options:
Corsair RM
Seasonic G
Seasonic X
Coolermaster V
Enermax Modu87+

I'm currently leaning towards the Corsair RM, due to efficiency, silence, and price combination.
The X series only starts at higher wattages than I need, but efficiency even at very low load for these models seems to be great and they come with a seven year warranty, the downside is the price.
The G series is cheaper, but less silent, and apparantly has some electricity usage even when turned off.
The V series is also cheaper, but only comes with a three year warranty, so is worse for peace of mind, and suggests worse build quality.
The Modu87+ is an older model. That does not mean it's worse, but I don't know how it has been stored and how much electrical components, especially capacitors, degrade even when not in use.

Which one should I choose? I'm also not sure about the wattage. After looking at many tests on both hardware.info and techpowerup, it seems that even if I take a 850 Watt model, efficiency and thus silence at low wattages is great. The advantage of higher wattages would be quiet operation even at full load, and room for future expansion/upgrades. Graphics cards seem to be increasing in TDP.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:34 am

Your stressed load power is approximately 65W (CPU) + 130W (GPU) + <50W (mobo and everything else) = call it less than 250W. Heavy gaming load is closer to 210W. If you continue to buy mid-range gfx cards, expect the TDP to stay in the 120-170W range.

Go for the RM 550. It'll run fanless for most of your loads..and for heavy loads/super warm days, the fan will kick on.

The rest looks fine. Try it with the two stock fans and see if you like their performance/acoustics. You can always swap them out/add another.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:55 pm

Most likely I'll continue to buy mid-range graphics, however, I might buy previous generation higher end graphics when they fall in price after the next generation appears. But even then, I'm unlikely to go with a heavy dual graphics card setup, at most mid range cards in crossfire.

Apart from the missing digital link in the RMx series, which I most likely wouldn't be able to use in linux anyway, is there any other reason to prefer the RM over the RMx or vice versa?

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:23 am

KitGuru sums up the differences here.

RMx vs RM:
- better caps in secondary
- 7 yr vs 5 yr warranty
- flat cables
- better AC ripple suppression

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:23 pm

Well, it looks like I won't be buying the RMx models, they're listed at a very high price here. They're supposed to be cheaper than the RM models, no?
Here are the prices here of what's currently available (and possibly relevant) from two large cheap computer chains:

Seasonic G550 435
Seasonic G650 470
Corsair RM550 535
Seasonic G750 585
Corsair RM650 625
Seasonic X750 654
Seasonic X850 664
Corsair RM650x 690
Corsair RM750 694
Seasonic platinum760 770
Corsair RM750x 810
Corsair RM850x 925

How will the G550 hold up to the RM550? Some reviews favour one, others the other.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by CA_Steve » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:48 pm

God Of Atheism wrote:Well, it looks like I won't be buying the RMx models, they're listed at a very high price here. They're supposed to be cheaper than the RM models, no?
Asked and answered :) The RMx are the RMi's w/o the link, but a better build than the RM. So, not cheaper than the RM.
God Of Atheism wrote:How will the G550 hold up to the RM550? Some reviews favour one, others the other.
G550: Better components, fan is always on. 800rpm at non-gaming loads, probably around 1200rpm at heavy gaming load. So, inaudible for everything but gaming; for gaming might add to the gfx card fan noise a tiny bit. Some Seasonics have been known to have coil whine.

RM550: Fan passive and may or may not turn on for your gaming load. Slightly more efficient. Supposedly designed to not have coil whine.

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Re: New computer in R5

Post by God Of Atheism » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:24 pm

So in the end I went for the Seasonic G550. It having the better components was what made me decide. Especially after reading some more reviews saying that the newer G550 does have enough hold up time and the RM550 having the worse capacitors in the hottest, worst ventilated spot in the psu. Even if the Corsair unit also has the five year warranty and is more silent, the Seasonic unit has on paper the better chance of not needing to use the warranty and should also be very silent with my load unless I have bad luck and get coil whine.

The rest of the parts I ordered two days ago and I already got my order. The bad part is that the hard disk is missing. I already contacted them, and I hope they'll find the missing hard disk after the weekend.

I've yet to put anything together, I can say that the cpu cooler is monstrously big.

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