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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:53 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
CA_Steve wrote:
Given the poor case ventilation, chances are good that you'll need to tie a low rpm fan to the passive gfx card to prevent high temps. Try gaming with it first and monitor the temps. You can always add the fan later.
I think I've told him so three days ago, but I felt that in case they would rather buying another enclosure (necessarily too cheap, so likely wrong).

This option is not excluded :) About case option, I was thinking about a Cooler Master Silencio 352. It seems to be too cheap but not so likely wrong :mrgreen:

(All this stuff I'm learning will be useful when my pc will collapse...)


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:01 am 
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Ok, fans round 2:
Nexus Real Silent Case Fan PWM 80mm: this is for upgrading without modifying the existing case.
Scythe GlideStream PWM 120mm: this is in case the case he wants to modify. I selected a 120mm instead of a 140mm because Cooler Master Silencio 352 mounts 120mm fans.

Are they enough or do you suggest me a 140mm, and so a case that is compatible with that size? The Scythe fan is good in case he wants to put it directly on the graphic card?


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:03 am 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:
CA_Steve wrote:
Given the poor case ventilation, chances are good that you'll need to tie a low rpm fan to the passive gfx card to prevent high temps. Try gaming with it first and monitor the temps. You can always add the fan later.
I think I've told him so three days ago, but I felt that in case they would rather buying another enclosure (necessarily too cheap, so likely wrong).

This option is not excluded :) About case option, I was thinking about a Cooler Master Silencio 352. It seems to be too cheap but not so likely wrong :mrgreen:


That could not be the safest option (nor I would call it as "too cheap": at 55-60 euros it will be 20% of budget).


Lucas Malor wrote:
Ok, fans round 2:
Nexus Real Silent Case Fan PWM 80mm: this is for upgrading without modifying the existing case.


Broadly speaking, that fan is very good, but as said several times, it's not up to the task of cooling that passive videocard, even due to case restraints.

As a rule of thumb, quiet computing requires bigger fans (but in a low budget you might also think to strap onto the video card, although I would expect sub-optimal results).


Lucas Malor wrote:
Scythe GlideStream PWM 120mm: this is in case the case he wants to modify. I selected a 120mm instead of a 140mm because Cooler Master Silencio 352 mounts 120mm fans.

Are they enough or do you suggest me a 140mm, and so a case that is compatible with that size? The Scythe fan is good in case he wants to put it directly on the graphic card?


I prefer the older Slipstream PWM over it, for its noise signature, but that's a personal taste: the GlideStream is more than okay.
I would use that fan directly on the graphics card, as in the CM 352 could turn out useless: do not forget you may need a PWM splitter along with it.

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:00 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
The R7 is a rebadged 7750.


Well, Steve, actually it should not be so: the former sports 384 shaders, while the latter 512 ones.

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:57 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
CA_Steve wrote:
The R7 is a rebadged 7750.


Well, Steve, actually it should not be so: the former sports 384 shaders, while the latter 512 ones.


@Lucas Malor: I see there are still some chances to order in Italy the XFX FX-777A-ZDF4, and if I were you I would drop an e-mail to planethardware.eu customer support about it.

The reason to point it out is that's fanned, and it's reasonably quiet: perhaps it runs a bit hot compared to similar cards, but nonetheless being fanned it might solve most of your airflow issues. As a free bonus, it's faster than any R7 of comparable price, and you can also control its fans using SpeedFan.

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:50 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
there are still some chances to order in Italy the XFX FX-777A-ZDF4 [...] it's reasonably quiet

Well, good! I'm always a bit scared about fanned graphic cards, since I had a very bad experience, but if you say me this one is reasonably quiet I think I can suggest it to my poor guinea pig :D

quest_for_silence wrote:
do not forget you may need a PWM splitter along with it [for the passive video card + fan]

Is it needed even if mobo has 2 fan connectors?


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:50 am 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
but if you say me this one is reasonably quiet I think I can suggest it to my poor guinea pig :D


As usual caveat, it's not just the part, but also how you operate it: in open air I bet you won't be disappointed, but in a closed case resonances and vibrations can be an hindrance, so your mileage may vary.

At any rate, about how quiet is that card, you may also ask for a second opinion to user markanini.


Lucas Malor wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:
do not forget you may need a PWM splitter along with it [for the passive video card + fan]

Is it needed even if mobo has 2 fan connectors?


Well, that one is a PWM fan, and I bet the second header on the ASUS H81M-E board won't be a true PWM one, but a voltage controlled one (usually they do so, while ASRock has two true PWM headers), which would run a PWM fan just at full speed (i.e. noisy). This is one of the possible simplifications I pointed you out about cheap branded mobos some posts ago.

Obviously, as I don't own that board, it's just my educated guess: that's why I said "you may need".

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:18 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
Well, that one is a PWM fan, and I bet the second header on the ASUS H81M-E board won't be a true PWM one

Well, he agreed to buy the h87 model, but H81M-E seems to support pwm:

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA ... Series.pdf
(page 24 or 1-16, figure)


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:28 am 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
H81M-E seems to support pwm:

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA ... Series.pdf
(page 24 or 1-16, figure)


As you may find in these forums, there have been several reports about ASUS boards where 4-pin headers (not the CPU one) were fake PWM ones: in doubt, you'd better to ask to ASUS Customer Support (even if usually they're terrible).

Anyway, I saw that only the CPU_FAN header support FanXpert 2 on the H87M-E, and that's a bit suspicious: maybe they're referring to the calibration procedure, but as they could be not completely manageable, I would still drop an e-mail to ASUS, in order to play safe.

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:07 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
As you may find in these forums, there have been several reports about ASUS boards where 4-pin headers (not the CPU one) were fake PWM ones

Yes, I found this thread. Indeed Z87-Deluxe does not have any reference to pwm for chassis fan connectors in its manual. I suppose H81M-E is safe.


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:38 am 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
I suppose H81M-E is safe.


IMO the key passage of the OP you linked is:

Quote:
"Who cares?" many of you are probably thinking by now. After all, both kinds of fans do end up speed controlled (in a Clintonian "it depends on what the meaning of 'control' is" kind of way). But PWM-controlled fans behave differently than voltage-controlled fans, especially at low speeds. Often a PWM fan will start reliably at and hold a lower RPM with PWM than with voltage control. In my case, low-speed behavior was critical; I especially wanted to make sure that my fans would run at a very low RPM and be totally silent when the PC was at idle or low loads, which is really most of the time, and then ramp up to audible speeds only at higher loads, when I'm probably gaming and won't care anyway. For instance, I've got Noctua NF-A15 fans that will run dead silent at about 220 RPM at their minimum 18% PWM duty cycle. But if you ignore the PWM and use voltage control instead, they don't start until about 6.2 volts (52%), at around 675 RPM, which is not quiet enough for me when I'm coding at 3 AM. I ended up solving the problem by daisy-chaining the case fans off of the CPU_OPT header, but I still don't appreciate the misleading design.

Also, in line with that higher starting voltage issue, ASUS enforces a minimum 60% voltage limit (7.2V) on voltage-controlled fans in the BIOS, while it allows a much more useful 20% minimum PWM duty cycle. This isn't a big issue for Windows users, since the Fan Xpert 2 software can override the BIOS limits and tailor them to your fan's actual abilities, but non-Windows users are stuck. For me, 60% is more like the *maximum* I'd ever actually want, during heavy but non-benchmarking usage, so having it as the minimum would really suck.


I don't think the H81M-E CHA_FAN header is PWM, and in that case the fan will run faster (noisier) than needed.
Do not forget to check with ASUS Support what the FanXpert 2 warning mean, with reference to the H87M-E.

Btw, up to now I still think the ASRock B85M Pro4 may be a better option for a quiet & cheap gaming rig: at any rate, particularly with ASUS boards IMO it may worth to daisy chaining any PWM fan by a PWM splitter hooked up onto the CPU_FAN header (as also explained some posts above).

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:05 pm 
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I think the way to distinguish cases is reported here:

rhuebner wrote:
You can get a clue about this weirdness from the pinout diagrams for the fan headers in the user's manual. The 4th pin for the CPU_FAN and CPU_OPT headers is labeled as "CPU fan PWM", but for the CHA_FAN headers is instead labeled as "+5V".

The CHA_FAN 4th pins of both H81M-E and H87M-E are labeled as PWD.


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:05 pm 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
rhuebner wrote:
You can get a clue about this weirdness from the pinout diagrams for the fan headers in the user's manual. The 4th pin for the CPU_FAN and CPU_OPT headers is labeled as "CPU fan PWM", but for the CHA_FAN headers is instead labeled as "+5V".

The CHA_FAN 4th pins of both H81M-E and H87M-E are labeled as PWD.
Asus lies about this stuff, or markets it like they are when most arent, even super high end asus mobos only have 1 true PWM fan header, i somewhat doubt an H87 mobo will have true PWM fan headers aside from CPU_FAN. Read the following thread, ASUS Z87-Deluxe fake 4-pin headers & other fan control info.

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:05 pm 
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Abula wrote:
Lucas Malor wrote:
rhuebner wrote:
You can get a clue about this weirdness from the pinout diagrams for the fan headers in the user's manual. The 4th pin for the CPU_FAN and CPU_OPT headers is labeled as "CPU fan PWM", but for the CHA_FAN headers is instead labeled as "+5V".

The CHA_FAN 4th pins of both H81M-E and H87M-E are labeled as PWD.
Asus lies about this stuff, or markets it like they are when most arent, even super high end asus mobos only have 1 true PWM fan header, i somewhat doubt an H87 mobo will have true PWM fan headers aside from CPU_FAN. Read the following thread, ASUS Z87-Deluxe fake 4-pin headers & other fan control info.


As I am a curious person, I asked directly to ASUS Support: that's what their operator (mr. John Lu) has answered me right now (it's true, 5 minutes ago!):

Quote:
Dear Luca,

Thank you for contacting ASUS Customer Service.
My name is john and it is my pleasure to help you with your problem.

Chassis fans were controller by voltage actually.
No need to install 4-pin fan.


So with reference to the hardware setup, as far as I know, you (Lucas Malor) will need either 3-pin Glidestream, or a PWM splitter along with the proposed Glidestream PWM, regardless of the choice between the H81M-E or H87M-E (I would add that software setup will be more important, noise-wise).

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:02 am 
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Abula wrote:
Asus lies about this stuff

Man, this is bad :evil:

Well, I suppose a splitter will work good enough. It's a bit tricky, since if the case fan stops working, cpu fan will stop as well...


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:27 am 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
Well, I suppose a splitter will work good enough. It's a bit tricky, since if the case fan stops working, cpu fan will stop as well...


How a PWM splitter works isn't right that way: as you may know, with a PWM splitter all the fans are daisy-chained to the CPU one.
So the BIOS (or any control utility, FanXpert, SpeedFan, AISuite, whatever) can read and vary just the CPU fan speed: all the other fans look like "invisible" to the control system, but they will spin al the same PWM duty cycle of the CPU one, so that their actual speed will be unknown.

Therefore, whether all fans are identical, they will spin at the same speed: otherwise your mileage may vary.

So even if at first glance it doesn't seem to me such a good option (you've still to take a decision about the case...), if you want to try stopping the case fans, while not the CPU one (providing your control system let you do so), you might choose either a CPU fan which doesn't stop even for a duty cycle of 0% (but you may incur in a not so good fan), or PWM case fans which instead will stop at low PWM duty cycle, and at any rate those case fans should have a noticeable lower input current than the CPU one.

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:37 am 
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At the end he decided the configuration I updated in the first post. Probably quest_for_silence will get disappointed for mobo choice :mrgreen:
Thank you all for your suggestions and useful informations I got. I would know more about a silent case, but I'll bother you in another thread.


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:53 am 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
At the end he decided the configuration I updated in the first post.


If it were absolutely true, I wonder how a 140mm fan may fit an 80mm mount...


Lucas Malor wrote:
Probably quest_for_silence will get disappointed for mobo choice


Absolutely no: "The God Themselves..."

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:14 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
If it were absolutely true, I wonder how a 140mm fan may fit an 80mm mount...

As I said, that's not my problem.

quest_for_silence wrote:
Absolutely no: "The God Themselves..."

*Ahem*, can I ask you to not insult me and my friend, and to not quote Einstein randomly, please?

I suggested him the mobo with h81 chipset instead of the h87 because they both don't have a real PWM case fan connector, as you also pointed out. So the only real great difference between the two chipsets is the built-in RAID support, that he don't need.

Maybe the AsRock does have real PWM case fan connector, but I personally don' trust AsRock and I suggest that brand to no one, since I read in too many forums that AsRock uses more cheap materials and offers less support than Asus. And they was not only italian forums but english-based ones, as Anandtech and Tom's Hardware. Maybe it's only a gossip, who knows. If you can provide me some technical review I'll be happy to change my mind.


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:30 pm 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:
Absolutely no: "The God Themselves..."

*Ahem*, can I ask you to not insult me and my friend, and to not quote Einstein randomly, please?


Please, check your personal quotes collection: I'm neither quoting Einstein, nor randomly, I'm quoting Schiller, et pour cause (to be fair, maybe there is a spelling mistake).

And it's not meant as an insult: when a thing is foolish, that remains even if it's done deliberately.
So, if you feel yourself insulted because someone just acknowledges such a fact, it's not my fault, maybe malice is in the eye of the beholder.

With best wishes, Luca


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:38 am 
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The fact is that if you say that someone is doing something stupid, you are insulting him.
The fact is dedicated PWM case fan connector is better, but I'll not call stupid a PWM chain.
The fact is you never disperse my doubts about AsRock. It's not mandatory, but, if someone says to me I'm suggesting something stupid, he should explain himself or avoid to be sarcastic.

I want to be clear: it's not lack of trust. I trusted you for many aspects of this pc. But in the end I have to decide with my brain and you can't call my decision "stupid", especially because *I* will deal with my friend if something goes wrong.

And yes, Einstein said "Only two things are infinite" etc. But Schiller said "the very gods themselves", so I suppose you quoted Asimov. By the way, good book, if you don't read the third part. I have to apologize, but I never had a citation list or book, since IMHO people that uses quotes a lot are people that pretend to look intelligent without actually being. I hope you'll be sufficiently malicious.


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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:26 am 
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Lucas Malor wrote:
The fact is that if you say that someone is doing something stupid, you are insulting him.


Man, I think you're overreacting: as english is not our language, if I were you I'd keep into consideration the chance of misunderstanding.
Moreover, maybe as you look like young, you're showing sort of lack of sense of the edge (not to mention a possible little lack of respect, but I won't care about it).

A straight criticism is not an insult, even if you'd seem not able to stand it: pointing out you're doing something foolishly is not calling you names. Besides, that criticism is not coming out either in reaction to a late specific sentence, or out of the blue: I hope you will be able to understand that.


Lucas Malor wrote:
The fact is dedicated PWM case fan connector is better, but I'll not call stupid a PWM chain.


Man, there are chances that you didn't even know what a PWM chain was, up to a week ago: so, please, do not misrepresent the facts, and calmly re-read again the whole thread, if needed.
Above all, mind that ASUS said those boards do not have any PWM case fan header: therefore, if you're going to connect a 140mm PWM fan to that header, I strongly hope that ASUS Customer Support Rep was wrong.


Lucas Malor wrote:
he should explain himself or avoid to be sarcastic.


Before you ask for something for yourself, ask yourself what you're giving to others:

Lucas Malor wrote:
Probably quest_for_silence will get disappointed for mobo choice :mrgreen:

Providing you're not dealing with any of your close mates, whether you're teasing on your own, you should be able to stand any critic answer even whether expressed by a learned XIX century aphorism, particularly whether that criticism has been already expressed in a similar way without arousing any overreaction.


Lucas Malor wrote:
I want to be clear: it's not lack of trust.


Well, broadly speaking, maybe it's not a matter of trust, rather I'd say of respect.
In my humble opinion, if you plead as a beginner, then an attitude like: "Thanks but I do as I please" sounds how declaring that we have just wasted our time answering you.

But in the end, it doesn't matter: you've room to grow and become more intellingent than you look like right now.

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 Post subject: Re: New quiet but budget PC for Diablo III
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:06 am 
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Well, reading your post I think there was a misunderstanding. your "lout" will send you a PM. Sorry for the confusion folks and thank you all again.


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