Advice on an almost silent new setup.

[jormartr]

Hello,

I would like to ask advice for a new system I am about to build. After several years with my old and noisy quad q6600 I finally got the occasion to build a silent system as I wanted since years ago.

I want a very low demanding, almost passive but powerfull system. This is the first time I attempt to build something like this, and so I would like to ask for advice about my idea of the computer and the following list of components which may or may not be addequate:

- Processor: Intel i7-4790t (45W)
- Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Q87M-D2H (I want this Q87 chipset for its VT-d virtualization features)
- Memory: 32Gb of any known brand (still to decide)
- Power supply: still deciding between picoPSU or ATX PSU
- Case: SilverStone Temjin TJ-08e
- HeatSink: Scythe Kotetsu (after reading its review it seems it does black magic)
- Disk: SSD Samsung Evo 512Gb
- Disk: a couple of 2.5 WD Red (WD10JFCX) inside a couple of old aluminium Tacens box cases I've got laying aroud.

With this said I will highly appreciate any advice about this setup.

Thank you very much.

[Pappnaas]

Welcome to SPCR,

just a few random thoughts:

- a "t" cpu is a cut off standard cpu, if you use the HR-22 and a slow spinning (= inaudible) fan you can use almost any standard cpu
-case: Take a look at the Fractal Node 304 http://www.silentpcreview.com/Fractal_Design_Node_304
- which features for virtualization do you exactly mean? Q87 just offers vPro, which afaik hasn't got anything to do with virtualization. Doesn't really make sense to buy latest haswell and go with last gen's chipset.

[lodestar]

The main issue with the 4750T is that as a second-generation (Refresh) Haswell CPU it is not supported by this motherboard without both a BIOS and chipset update. The update involves running the Asus BIOS Updater utility which only runs under Windows. This creates an all too common scenario where an unsupported CPU won't allow the system to boot but without booting it is impossible to update the BIOS to support the CPU. There is an additional complication here because a USB BIOS update will not be enough, it needs a chipset update as well which can only be done under Windows. The easiest solution would be to switch to a first generation Haswell. If you feel it's worth it you could contemplate buying the cheapest processor that the board will support and using that to install Windows and update the BIOS before replacing it with a second-generation CPU.

Other than that, the Asus q87m-e has two PWM chassis fan headers which don't support Fan Xpert. So you would be limited to BIOS control, and to achieve the quietest fan speeds the Silent BIOS profile. This has a target of holding PWM fans speeds down to 20% duty cycle which the CPU temperature is under 40C. It can give very quiet fan speeds at idle, effectively silent if used with the PWM fans that allow the slowest speeds at this duty cycle range. For 120mm PWM fans this would include the Noctua 120mm models particularly the NF-P12 PWM or at a lower cost the NF-S12B Redux 1200 PWM. For 140mm fans you could consider the Noctua NF-A14 PWM or the cheaper NF-P14s Redux 1200 PWM.

[xan_user]

The update involves running the Asus BIOS Updater utility which only runs under Windows.

many ASUS boards ive dealt with have a bios updater from inside of the bios. I dont know why this one wouldnt too?

[lodestar]

Updating the 8 series boards to take the Haswell Refresh CPUs is different. See the Asus FAQ Can I use the new 4th Gen Intel Core Processor on my ASUS 8 series motherboard? on this issue which confirms that it can only be done within Windows as it requires the Intel IME Driver (Intel Management Engine Interface Driver) to be present.

[xan_user]

i stand corrected. thats odd they have a few boards than require windows to update the bios, but a so many that do not.

[jormartr]

Welcome to SPCR

Thank you very much. I did register on these forums several years ago, but it has not been until now when I can build my dream pc.

- a "t" cpu is a cut off standard cpu, if you use the HR-22 and a slow spinning (= inaudible) fan you can use almost any standard cpu

True, but I am looking for an almost passive system, with a passive PSU using a 12V/19V brick. I prefer going the easy way and sticking with a T model is very appealing to me.

-case: Take a look at the Fractal Node 304 http://www.silentpcreview.com/Fractal_Design_Node_304

I'm looking for a mATX case and after reading lots of reviews on this site I am interested on some case like Silverstone TJ-08e. This one is specially very interesting. I want room for a couple of 5.25 bays and slots for posible future addons.

- which features for virtualization do you exactly mean? Q87 just offers vPro, which afaik hasn't got anything to do with virtualization. Doesn't really make sense to buy latest haswell and go with last gen's chipset.

As stated here only the Q87 chipsets supports VT-d, but reading on other sources it seems other chipsets supports it. I want to be on the safe side here. I am still not sure about this, I must read a bit more.

Regarding to the motherboard and its support for this processor I have some other options with this chipset like the Gigabyte GA-Q87M-D2H. It has several choices for Bios upgrade like DOS utility (unlike the Asus one which needs Windows).

What does it mean "Support New 4th Generation Intel Core" bios upgrade? Does it generally mean that motherboard won't start if has a 4th generation Intel Core and has not been upgraded its firmware?

I will add a couple of 2.5 Western Digital Red WD10JFCX inside of a couple of old Tacens aluminium 5.25 case for HD silencing I've got. This is the part that most frightens me. Seagate momentus thin seems more silent, but doesn't seem to be 24/7 friendly.

Thank you again very much. I am near to finally get this on a truly silent system.

[boost]

Pappnaas wrote:
- which features for virtualization do you exactly mean? Q87 just offers vPro, which afaik hasn't got anything to do with virtualization. Doesn't really make sense to buy latest haswell and go with last gen's chipset.


As stated here only the Q87 chipsets supports VT-d, but reading on other sources it seems other chipsets supports it. I want to be on the safe side here. I am still not sure about this, I must read a bit more.

Support for newer chipsets H97/Z97 is not clearly listed, the field is left empty.
IRL, a lot of Asrock Z97 boards support VT-d.

[lodestar]

What does it mean "Support New 4th Generation Intel Core" bios upgrade? Does it generally mean that motherboard won't start if has a 4th generation Intel Core and has not been upgraded its firmware?

Yes, exactly that - trying to use a Haswell Refresh CPU in an non-upgraded 8 series motherboard will not work. See Updating BIOS in Gigabyte GA-Q87M-D2H to handle Haswell Refresh processor.

[washu]

What are you going to use VT-d for? Unless you intend to dedicate a specific hardware component to one VM you dont need VT-d.

[MikeC]

The other posters are right when they point out that the CPU you picked is deliberately locked down. At idle, they all have the same power consumption (generally, very low). It's at load that they are different, mostly because low TDP ones basically don't perform as fast. We did an article or two some years ago looking at the difference between standard and low TDP chips and concluded you can do better with a standard chip, often at a lower price, and just underclock/volt it. Actually the unlocked chips are best not only for overclocking & overvolting but also the reverse.

Also, choosing a last gen motherboard for use with a new gen CPU seems like asking for trouble. You're better off researching more fully the capabilities of current gen boards -- or waiting for one that has support for VT-d.

[jormartr]

What are you going to use VT-d for? Unless you intend to dedicate a specific hardware component to one VM you dont need VT-d.

Right now I want to play with it, but I may use it later. I don't want to miss that feature.

The other posters are right when they point out that the CPU you picked is deliberately locked down. At idle, they all have the same power consumption (generally, very low). It's at load that they are different, mostly because low TDP ones basically don't perform as fast. We did an article or two some years ago looking at the difference between standard and low TDP chips and concluded you can do better with a standard chip, often at a lower price, and just underclock/volt it. Actually the unlocked chips are best not only for overclocking & overvolting but also the reverse.

I've thought about it after reading you. Still I prefer going the easy way and "pay" for having a buy and install cpu than underclocking/undervolting it myself. It is not that I have money, but I still have less time than money.

Also, choosing a last gen motherboard for use with a new gen CPU seems like asking for trouble. You're better off researching more fully the capabilities of current gen boards -- or waiting for one that has support for VT-d.

I remembered I've got access to a Haswell i3-4130 at work. I can use that cpu to upgrade the BIOS.

With this said I think I've got the full computer. Only heatsink and fans pending but that will be a very easy by reading your great articles. I've understood that having a 400rpm fan is way better than fanless heatsink while still being virtually silent (it will be for me for sure). This is going to be a great system for me, really.

Thank you very much again guys.

[Vicotnik]

I've thought about it after reading you. Still I prefer going the easy way and "pay" for having a buy and install cpu than underclocking/undervolting it myself. It is not that I have money, but I still have less time than money.

Having a slower CPU will cost you time you know..

With a fan in there I would go for a normal CPU. If, for some strange reason you experience heat issues, it's not that time consuming to reboot, enter BIOS/UEFI and set 'max multiplier' to something lower than auto.

[jormartr]

Having a slower CPU will cost you time you know..

With a fan in there I would go for a normal CPU. If, for some strange reason you experience heat issues, it's not that time consuming to reboot, enter BIOS/UEFI and set 'max multiplier' to something lower than auto.

Sure!, still I want to go with with a fanless power supply and do it the easy way with a low demanding CPU. The intel i7-4790t is the cpu I want, even if I could get some more performance with other one.

I am about to buy all the components except the power supply. Once I've got this computer working with some random ATX power supply (yes, I know), I'll measure the power consumption of the working computer and buy a picoPSU with the measured data in mind. But anyway, I think I will buy some power supply larger than the needed, I do not want to get, say a 90W one and later realize than I would like to add some component and cry because I need a 120W one. But with this said, I'll wait for the computer, and then buy exactly the needed power supply with some wattage added.

[Vicotnik]

I kind of get what you are looking for but for me a few things seems wrong. An ATX case and a picoPSU for example. With fans in there why go passive on the PSU? Noise impact would probably be minimal with a normal ATX PSU and the system would be less complex.

[jormartr]

I kind of get what you are looking for but for me a few things seems wrong. An ATX case and a picoPSU for example. With fans in there why go passive on the PSU? Noise impact would probably be minimal with a normal ATX PSU and the system would be less complex.

I agree, but I want a system which I can't know if it is powered on or off by listening to it from half a meter or a bit more. Is that posible with modern PSU ? The problem is when summer arrives, temperature can stay at 35º during hot days or a bit more, so I am afraid of having an almost silent system that isn't quiet on hot summer. With picoPSU I won't have this problem, and being such a low demanding 24/7 power computer (no 3.5 hd, no graphics card) it seems to be a good idea.

Anyway I am reading lots of articles right now about power supplies here on spcr. I discarded an ATX PSU before starting this computer project but maybe I was wrong about this.

[Vicotnik]

I'm not an expert on ATX PSUs. Others on the forum are though, I'm sure you can find solid advise in other threads. I have a Seasonic G-360 in my gaming box, that might not be quiet enough for you. Perhaps you need one that's fanless or semi fanless. Check prices and compare the cost of a brick and picoPSU vs a good quiet/silent ATX PSU. With power to spare you could go with a normal CPU, or at least pick one based on price instead of a TDP value that's part marketing, part technical "truth."

Btw, sitting next to my main system (it's on the desk beside me) I can sometimes hear it. Soft chirping sounds from the SSD perhaps, or a faint whine during irregular load. Nothing that's bothering me, but sounds will always be there. Your system will have a few fans that hopefully will be few enough and low spinning enough to not intrude through the ambient noise. Ideally one of those quiet fans will be in the PSU imo.

[jormartr]

@Vicotnik: after some hours reading and searching I've decided to go with the picoPSU option. My choices were in between BeQuiet! Dark Power Pro 10 550, Seasonic X-400 Fanless and picoPSU. I've done my homework for 3-4 hours and decided to go with picoPSU. Any of the other two options seems very good choices but I want to take the safe path, and with picoPSU I can not fail for what I expect from the computer.

For 120mm PWM fans this would include the Noctua 120mm models particularly the NF-P12 PWM or at a lower cost the NF-S12B Redux 1200 PWM. For 140mm fans you could consider the Noctua NF-A14 PWM or the cheaper NF-P14s Redux 1200 PWM.

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I don't want to fail on the silent front while building this computer, so I don't care paying more just to be sure I don't have any surprises. With this said, I've put an eye on NoiseBlocker M12-PS, which is not cheap but I've got the impression I can't fail with that fan. I guess the Noctua NF-P12W can be also inaudible when regulated and, by the way, it is easier for me to buy it. Now I am between these two, but I am sure I can't go wrong with either of them (I am now more geared towards the Noctua after reading a bit).

[Abula]

With this said, I've put an eye on NoiseBlocker M12-PS, which is not cheap but I've got the impression I can't fail with that fan. I guess the Noctua NF-P12W can be also inaudible when regulated and, by the way, it is easier for me to buy it. Now I am between these two, but I am sure I can't go wrong with either of them (I am now more geared towards the Noctua after reading a bit).

Tone wise i prefer the Noiseblocker, the M12 imo is one of the best fans that i have heard, but i dont like the way Noiseblocker designs their PWM, i dont own a PS but i used to P and the PLPS, and the reason i don't like them is their PWM starts at 0%, where not that many motherboards will go to, and even if they can still a little high for my likings, i been trying to get a new eloop PS to check if they are still doing PWM the same way, but i haven't gotten one yet.



Noctua in the other hand, design their pwm to reach 0rpms or close around 15%, although not a lot motherboards reach there in pure bios, some do like MSI/AsRock or Asus with FanXpert, i dont own a NF-P12, the only 120 i own from recent lines is the NF-S12A PWM, but in my experience all noctuas PWM are similar in the PWM design,



So i would recommend the Nocuta NF-P12 over the noiseblocker M12-PS if you are going to manage it by PWM and want to drop it to whisper quiet or inaudible levels. Now if its voltage control or 3pin fans, i would go with Scythe Gentle Typhoons.

Now as a last recommendation, since you dont want asus motherboard because FanXpert requieres windows, i would build around a good bios fan control, thus my recommendation is to check if the following mothebroard fits your needs, MSI CSM-Q87M-E43 LGA 1150 Intel Q87 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard. MSI bios fan control imo its much easier to tweak and get it working good, it can drop PWM fans on its CPU_FAN header to 12.5%, and its 3pin headers it can reach 50%, in my TJ08-E the fan has 2 presets, high and low, switch it to low, connect it to any SYS_FAN header and enter the bios and set its minimum to 50% or 60%, it should give you around 400-500rpms (samples vary), where its the quietest you will ever get the AP181.



If you want something almost silent or inaudible, and you like the form factor of the TJ08-E, consider the PS07, its a very similar case, one of its differences is 2x120mm instead of the frontal 180mm, with the MSI motherboard with pure bios fan control and this PWM fan Splitter, would allow you to drop the Noctua NF-S12 PWM to 12.5% or 25% (all controlled by CPU_FAN header) where the build should be inaudible.

If you like more the design of the TJ08-E over the PS07, you still have one option if you find the frontal fan not quiet enough, Taming the beast, Silverstone AP182, with the MSI motherboard and playing with the knob you can drop it close to 200rpms.

[mehimu]

The system you have chosen is a good one, but you need to go with a good Power supply

[jormartr]

Thank you very much Abula for your post, very useful information for me, really.

The system you have chosen is a good one, but you need to go with a good Power supply

Right!

I've everything chosen, but I have to decide about power supply. I am about to buy everything but still pending on this.

[jormartr]

After some search I'm going for the PicoPSU-160-XT with a 120W or 192W 12V level5 brick as found here.

I think this setup can be powered with something like 80W, or for sure with 120W. The 192W brick would let me some room for future expansion though, and due to efficiency I don't think it would waste more than a couple of wats compared to the 120W one with the load the initial system will have.

EDIT: thought about pico-box, but shipment time is high. Hd-plex seems nice also but seems to be located on USA and I am on Europe (shipment costs) while also being more expensive than a pico-psu.

[jormartr]

I finally ordered the computer!

several things are different from original specs though.

Got the i7-4790 instead of the T version so I may undervolt it and/or underclock later (thank you MikeC).

Got 3 ssd drives (raid5) instead of ssd+mechanical disks (yay!).

Got pico box x3-atx-300 and 19V 150W brick from picobox also. These will take some weeks to arrive.

Got no additional fans, I'll test with a couple of fans I've got with motherboard fan controller or a Zalman fan controller I've got lying around. All the components are passive except for the cpu fan, so if I get it running cool I will need only a bit of airflow coming from case fans. If I get the 18cm Temjin TJ-08ew case fan running silent maybe I don't need any other fan running, if not I'll try with some 12cm fan on rear part of the box, and if all this fails I'll order something else later.

I'll put a 5.25" noisy optical drive, but it is okay, it will only spin when used which will be 4 times a year (system recovery, reinstall, or some occasional cd/dvd burning) as the 150W power supply allows it.

I can't wait for it to arrive.

[jormartr]

Yay, got everything.

Incredible computer, the only thing that disapoints me is the X3-ATX-300 has electrical interferences sounds.

[dCrypt]

the only thing that disapoints me is the X3-ATX-300 has electrical interferences sounds.

Hi, jormartr,

As I am planning buying the same passive ATX PSU (X3-ATX-300), and I live in Spain too, I would like to know if you managed to get rid of the electrical interference sound or, at least, managed to find an explaination for it. And if the electrical noise came from the DC-DC or from the AC-DC brick.

Would you recommend that PSU, noise wise? Did you order it from PicoBox directly?

Thank you, BR

[jormartr]

Yes, I bought it through the link provided on pico-box to aliexpress. The package is sent from China so it takes some weeks to arrive.

Regarding the electrical noise, it comes from the DC-DC. I don't remember hearing it lately, let me give you more feedback in a couple of days, I'll take attention, I don't know if I got used to it or it is masked by fans that maybe run faster now on summer.

With this said, I am quite happy with this power supply. I bought a 150W brick but I didn't pay attention to the connector which doesn't fit, I could have solder another one but anyway I had a couple of smaller 120W which I attached. If you get this PS put attention to the connector when buying a brick. If you don't find one of say 150W with the appropiate connector but one with 80W or 120W, you can attach two at the same time even if these differ on voltage.

[dCrypt]

Thanks a lot for your advice, jormartr!

[jormartr]

The power supply still does "hiss" noise, but I got used to it (gets masked by room sounds). It is the only bad thing about it.

[dCrypt]

The power supply still does "hiss" noise, but I got used to it (gets masked by room sounds). It is the only bad thing about it.

Thank you again for answering. I've read somewhere (I can't find the source now) that someone noticed the same hissing with this DC-DC, and the problem went away by removing the fan from the motherboard and attaching it to a Molex connector. Hope it helps.

Now, I am considering buying this power supply. Not decided yet, though.

BR

[mehimu]

looks good