To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

[L. Beau Grees]

In general, for the current crop of boards, as compared to mITX, the uATX boards offer:
1. VRM heatsinks, as opposed to no heatsinks
2. Better power; six- or seven-phase, as opposed to five- or even four-phase
3. Eight-pin power connector, as opposed to four-pin
4. M.2 socket on top of board, as opposed to bottom of board
5. Four RAM sockets, as opposed to two.

They may possibly also offer more clearance around the CPU socket, for cooler. Otherwise, they seem to offer a comparable feature set.

Looking again at Gigabyte vs MSI, and considering H170 and B150 boards with VRM heatsinks:

For B150:
GA-B150M-D3H GSM, or
GA-B150M-D3H GSM
(two pages for the same board)
B150M Mortar

For H170:
GA-H170M-D3H
CSM-H170M-A Pro

1. For Gigabyte, both have heatsinks on only some of the VRM's; both MSI boards have heatsinks on most VRM's
2. For Gigabyte, B150 has five-phase power, H170 has seven-phase power; for MSI, both have seven-phase power
3. The Gigabyte boards both offer M.2; neither MSI board does
4. The Gigabyte boards both have Intel LAN; both MSI boards have Realtek LAN
5. The Gigabyte boards have Realtek ALC892 sound; the MSI boards have Realtek 8111H sound
6. In addition to one CPU fan header, the Gigabyte boards both have three system fan headers, while the MSI boards both have two system fan headers.

All of the boards have four USB3 / two USB2; all have VGA, DVI, and HDMI video; all have one RJ45 and one PS/2. From the Newegg page specs alone, it isn't known whether the fan connectors support PWM control.

So, please offer your thoughts. Which board would you go for?

[L. Beau Grees]

Based on all of the above (and much, much reading here at SPCR and elsewhere), I'm leaning towards doing another uATX build in (again) a Define Mini. Thanks to Steve, I've decided an i5 will be sufficient (rather than i7). As mentioned in the first post, integrated graphics, no overclocking. So, here is a tentative first-draft build:

Mainboard: Gigabyte GA-H170M-D3H
CPU: Intel i5-6600 (3.3GHz, 65W)
Cooler: Noctua NH-L9x65
GPU: Integrated
RAM: 8GB (2x4) DDR4 2133, leaning towards GSkill RipJaws
SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 500GB (for both O/S and data)
HDD: none
PSU: Corsair RM550X
Case: Fractal Design Define Mini

Regarding CPU, an i5-6600K (3.5GHz, 91W) or i7-6700 (3.4GHz, 65W), would be faster than the i5-6600, based on speed alone (even with no use of hyperthreading, for the i7). How noticeable would the difference be (I suspect, not very much)?

The system won't be pushed to extremes, and I prefer a top-down blower to a tower, in order to help cool the VRM's. The Noctua NH-L9i has a review on SPCR, but not the L9x65; however the L9x65 seems to get good user reviews, and got an Editor's Choice from TweakTown.

With the above components, 550W seems overkill. I wish the Seasonic X-Series were still available, but the Corsair RM550x seems to get recommended quite a bit in these forums. I very much like that it is modular, and that the fan doesn't run at low loads. Is it a good match for this build? Also, it is on sale right now both at Newegg and NCIX, with the better price being NCIX: Corsair RM550X 550W. And, it seems that today is the last day to purchase, for the $20 mail-in rebate.

Any other thoughts, recommendations or comments?

[L. Beau Grees]

Anyone have any thoughts on the above?

[CA_Steve]

Gigabyte still has the crappiest BIOS level fan control and the Win s/w version is just middling. Take a look at the Asrock H170 and Z170 Pro4 series. They are in the same ballpark price range as the Gigabyte board. Don't worry about number of mobo power phases. You have a 65W CPU that doesn't overclock. Actually, a board with fewer phases will be more efficient at idle/lower loads. Downside to Asrock is at most they'll provide one voltage control for case fan and the rest PWM.

If you go with Define Mini you have plenty of room for a tower cooler and there is no earthly reason to worry about VRM cooling with a 65W CPU that doesn't overclock. I'd only use that Noctua cooler in a case where no taller cooler would fit...and then again, I'd consider a different one. Scythe Kotetsu for similar price.

Don't know your applications, so can't comment on whether or not a couple of hundred MHz delta in the CPU will be noticable.

RAM: Tall heatspreaders and low profile cooler wouldn't be my choice. No benefit to these tall heatspreaders, anyway.

[quest_for_silence]

Gigabyte still has the crappiest BIOS level fan control and the Win s/w version is just middling. Take a look at the Asrock H170 and Z170 Pro4 series. They are in the same ballpark price range as the Gigabyte board. Don't worry about number of mobo power phases. You have a 65W CPU that doesn't overclock. Actually, a board with fewer phases will be more efficient at idle/lower loads. Downside to Asrock is at most they'll provide one voltage control for case fan and the rest PWM.

If you go with Define Mini you have plenty of room for a tower cooler and there is no earthly reason to worry about VRM cooling with a 65W CPU that doesn't overclock. I'd only use that Noctua cooler in a case where no taller cooler would fit...and then again, I'd consider a different one. Scythe Kotetsu for similar price.

Don't know your applications, so can't comment on whether or not a couple of hundred MHz delta in the CPU will be noticable.

RAM: Tall heatspreaders and low profile cooler wouldn't be my choice. No benefit to these tall heatspreaders, anyway.

+1.

[L. Beau Grees]

Thank you for your valuable comments.

RAM: Which do you like/recommend?

Define Mini: Has six 120mm fan locations; comes with two fans, but they are not PWM. Other than that, not sure of their specs. Among my parts, I found three new Scythe Slip Stream Kaze-Jyuni sy1225sl12l 120mm fans, and a new Enermax Marathon UC-12EB 120mm fan; but none of them are PWM either. Out of curiosity, would either of those be quieter or preferable to the Mini's fans?

In my builds, I have found that the stock cooler provides adequate (not ideal) cooling if not overclocking, but it is loud. A replacement that would suit me would be more quiet, and ideally provide slightly better cooling. While the Scythe Kotetsu is only $40 on Newegg/US, it is $140 on Newegg/Canada http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as ... 90R4JV2500 !! NCIX doesn't seem to have it. The only Scythe cooler on the Newegg Canada site, for under $100, is SCKDT-1100 Scythe Kodati Rev.B. I know that larger towers will always perform better than low-profile coolers, but I really don't need that level. If I prefer low-profile, would the one I mentioned be a good choice (would it be quieter/outperform the stock cooler), or are there other, better low-profile ones?

Mainboard: For whatever reason, Gigabyte seems to be out of favor on SPCR. Is it merely because of fan control, or are there other reasons as well? The board mentioned above has three system-fan headers, presumably not PWM, but I have no PWM case fans any way. The CPU header will hopefully be PWM. But honestly, my systems seldom get driven to the point where the fans are screaming, anyway. Are there other reasons to prefer a different board?

Thanks for all your input.

[lodestar]

If I prefer low-profile, would the one I mentioned be a good choice (would it be quieter/outperform the stock cooler), or are there other, better low-profile ones?

The Noctua NH-C14S at around $103 delivered could be worth considering. Clearance in low-profile mode (fan underneath) is 115mm; in high-profile mode (fan on top) 140mm.

[L. Beau Grees]

If I prefer low-profile, would the one I mentioned be a good choice (would it be quieter/outperform the stock cooler), or are there other, better low-profile ones?

The Noctua NH-C14S at around $103 delivered could be worth considering. Clearance in low-profile mode (fan underneath) is 115mm; in high-profile mode (fan on top) 140mm.

Thanks, lodestar! This one would fairly obviously outperform the one I had listed. Assuming there were no clearance restrictions, would this one perform better with the fan on top, or fan on bottom?

There is also the Noctua NH-L12 120mm & 92mm SSO Bearing PWM Fans which is going for $75 with free shipping. This one has two fans. Would it outperform the NH-C14S, or just be comparable?

[CA_Steve]

Everything at SPCR is viewed through the lens of "how can we make this PC quieter?". This is the sole reason why I don't recommend a Gigabyte mobo unless you are doing a Hackintosh build (as Gigabyte historically has catered toward this).

RAM: GSkill has RAM with short heatspreaders. As does Kingston, and others. Any will do.

cooler: I'd use the NH-L9x65 for a 35-45W CPU...for 65W, there's the NH-L12.

[L. Beau Grees]

Everything at SPCR is viewed through the lens of "how can we make this PC quieter?". This is the sole reason why I don't recommend a Gigabyte mobo unless you are doing a Hackintosh build (as Gigabyte historically has catered toward this).

RAM: GSkill has RAM with short heatspreaders. As does Kingston, and others. Any will do.

cooler: I'd use the NH-L9x65 for a 35-45W CPU...for 65W, there's the NH-L12.

Okay, you guys have convinced me. I didn't realize the Ripjaws were extra tall, but I'll look for some shorter RAM.

And, I'll likely go with the NH-L12, especially since it is only $5 more. I just got word from NCIX that they wouldn't accept a price-match for the NH-L9x65 at $60, even though both Newegg and Amazon have it at that price; the lowest they would go was $70. They also rejected a price-match on the mainboard.

For many years I have been buying from NCIX, due to their great customer service but especially due to their willing price-matching, which I've never had an issue with before. They also had the best current price on that power supply, and were offering free shipping on the entire order, so if they had price-matched, the savings would have been substantial. As it is, I'll just keep shopping till I'm satisfied with the price. Sorry, NCIX!

BTW, I have a brand-new-in-the-box NH-D14 that I ordered when I did my last build, because it was offered at a very good price when I purchased all the other components. Turns out, I couldn't get it to fit because of clearance issues with board components (nothing to do with the case). But that thing is huge! Is the NH-L12 going to be (hopefully) significantly smaller?

[CA_Steve]

I posted the link to the cooler review.

[L. Beau Grees]

Picked up the Fractal Design Define Mini at a local computer store today, for $108. Now just need the parts to put in it !

Also, Noctua's NH-L12 RAM compatibility list shows G.Skill Ripjaws 4 RAM being okay; it doesn't mention Ripjaws V which, according to G.Skill site, is 1mm taller. I've e-mailed Noctua support regarding that RAM.

[quest_for_silence]

If I prefer low-profile, would the one I mentioned be a good choice (would it be quieter/outperform the stock cooler), or are there other, better low-profile ones?

I guess you may have some options even there in Canada, with your somewhat typical, local nasty pricing...

For instance these:

• a very nice option for top down coolers: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/9FGj ... oler-bk002
• a slightly lesser performing (and a bit cheaper) alternative to the above one: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/8t64 ... phtc12lsbk
• another low profile, more inexpensive option (though the fan might need a replacement, so overall cost may increase): http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/sxh9 ... er-gabriel
• a blast from the SPCR past among low profile coolers, still enough good: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/xBV4 ... -low7000r2
• and last but not least, one of the best top down cooler ever made, though massive: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/yDg3 ... oler-nhc14

Or maybe these:

• an inexpensive but good option: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/cwPz ... oler-bk009
• a triplet of midrange towers, one already tested by SPCR, on NewEgg: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/TJfm ... -etst40ftb, http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/MPnG ... -etst40fbk & http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/GvWr ... -etst40frf
• a past SPCR Editor's Choice, alternative to the towers just above: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/H7K7 ... ooler-ar01
• a small tower cooler, recommended by SPCR, from the same lineup: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/t9V4 ... ooler-ar02

And I wouldn't forget these:

• something to try to go passive: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/WBmx ... h6v213pkr1
• another beautiful option to try to go passive: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/9JFP ... ooler-fx70
• a touch smaller wannabe passive option: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/Jf8H ... ler-cr80eh
• eventually, the passive monster, but just for fun: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/qLGk ... ooler-he02

[lodestar]

...it doesn't mention Ripjaws V which, according to G.Skill site, is 1mm taller...

That 1mm taller taking it to 42mm which could be really tight for the NH-L12. I would guess that even if Noctua say there is clearance with the Ripjaws V it would only be a millimetre or two. The Noctua NH-C14S has 67mm of clearance, part of the reason for suggesting it was because you said you were leaning towards Ripjaws. This will need the fan on top of course, making it around 142mm high. That would be perfectly OK for the Define Mini which has a quoted CPU cooler maximum height of 160mm.

[L. Beau Grees]

Luca, thanks for that great list of coolers!

I guess you may have some options even there in Canada, with your somewhat typical, local nasty pricing...

Yes, unfortunately, there is nothing I can do about that !

The passive coolers, though I love the total lack of noise, kind of worry me. The towers, on the other hand, I'm sure do provide the best cooling... for those who are overclocking or otherwise really stressing the CPU. True, there is plenty of room in the case, and since I typically go with integrated graphics, there is no GPU board to worry about. So, any of the coolers should fit. The only clearance concerns would be with the RAM.

But it is the top-down coolers that really interest me, as they seem to be an ideal choice for my application, since I'm not really pushing the CPU that hard. So cooling isn't that difficult, which means I should be able to run all the fans at low speed, and therefore less noise.

Well, that NH-C14 is pretty huge. Isn't it the big brother of the NH-L12? But the other top-downs are all priced lower than the NH-L12 (the one I was leaning to at this point). So, I will check the reviews, and keep a watch on the prices. I've set price alerts on all of the parts I'm interested in, so when the time comes (possibly Black Friday?), it might come down to which cooler is the best review/price at the time .

[L. Beau Grees]

...it doesn't mention Ripjaws V which, according to G.Skill site, is 1mm taller...

That 1mm taller taking it to 42mm which could be really tight for the NH-L12. I would guess that even if Noctua say there is clearance with the Ripjaws V it would only be a millimetre or two. The Noctua NH-C14S has 67mm of clearance, part of the reason for suggesting it was because you said you were leaning towards Ripjaws. This will need the fan on top of course, making it around 142mm high. That would be perfectly OK for the Define Mini which has a quoted CPU cooler maximum height of 160mm.

You're absolutely right, lodestar. The Ripjaws V series specs say 42mm, and the NH-L12 specs say clearance of 43mm--so 1mm ! Don't know whether or not that's acceptable.

[quest_for_silence]

The passive coolers, though I love the total lack of noise, kind of worry me.

Though this didn't fare that bad.
Broadly speaking, at around 75 it haven't a very good value, but it's a nice alternative to have, IMHO.

The towers, on the other hand, I'm sure do provide the best cooling...

Albeit, at mere 35 bucks, right actually a tower cooler seems to offer the best value for your CDN.

The only clearance concerns would be with the RAM.

Actually I like the Zalman FX70 the most: it's a beautifully crafted piece of metal and it should work rather decently with just the rear fan next to it, maybe with a duct.
Its major drawback is that it's kind of huge: that's the actual clearance on an 1155 mobo with 54mm Kingston Predator (I guess one of the tallest RAM in the market ATM)

FX70-Predator_1.jpg

FX70-Predator_4.jpg

FX70-Predator_2.jpg

But it is the top-down coolers that really interest me

The be quiet! Shadow Rock LP, at about 2/3 of the NH-L12 price, seems pretty interesting: decent fan and cooling prowess, it may worth to note that those two coolers were compared at THG (so pick their results with a pinch of salt). It doesn't like tall RAM heatspreaders too.

About the less expensive ones, the less the money, the less the cooling prowess and/or the quietness: in case it's a budget-oriented trading off.

Well, that NH-C14 is pretty huge. Isn't it the big brother of the NH-L12?

Yes it is, pretty huge (overall volume comparable to some dual towers coolers) and the big brother of the L12.
Probably it needs a mobo with an auto-sensing CPU fan header (like latest ASUS) and maybe to be driven by SpeedFan.
Actually you would not ever exploit its potential, so it offers to you a rather poor value, but nonetheless it's a great cooler to have IMHO, as it's a reference.

[L. Beau Grees]

Great pics, Luca! That Zalman is huge, just like the NH-D14; it appears that it's just near the limit of the Define Mini supported size. I'm glad it's working well for you, though it looks like you're limited to two RAM slots--those RAM sticks are about the tallest I've seen!

Thanks for the link to a very good review. Both the be quiet! Shadow Rock LP (available at NCIX, but not Newegg), and the Phanteks TC12LS (available at both, but I need to find some reviews on this one) have been added to my short-list, along with the NH-L12.

[quest_for_silence]

That Zalman is huge, just like the NH-D14

Side note: not that large, the NH-D14 is 20mm deeper than it, 130mm vs 110mm without the fans (158mm with the fans!), so much more obtrusive for RAM DIMMs (and the FX70 works better, passively).

BTW, have a nice build.