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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:17 pm 
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I don't have a specific number to throw at you...but let's look at the three cooler/fan combos already tested:
Attachment:
cooler tests1.PNG

The interesting bit for me is always where an increase in fan rpm provides decreasing benefit. For the Mugen 5, it looks like this happens somewhere between 750 and 1000 rpm where there is a 4C change. We only see a 1C difference going from 1k to 1300rpm. Don't really need a another data point in the sweet spot..it's just 4C. (My gut says the inflection point is around 800rpm).

For the Noctua configurations, the inflection point is somewhere between 460 and 840rpm. In this case, it would be nice to have another data point around 600rpm, because this is large differential (7C for the dual fan and 13C for the single fan).

So my answer would be to run the test as is for a configuration, pop the data into a graph like above and then see if it's useful to add another point.
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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:47 pm 
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Sadly i didnt have enough time to finish, as a matter of fact im half way with the testing... i though i would but i had a nephew birthday that i forgot, and i had help a friend that fried a GTX1080 took most of Saturday.

I manage to finish the testing with Thermalright Silver Arrow T8, i did some weird testing also with NH-D15S, since it has more than 25mm between the towers, i tried to fit a Silverstone FHP-141v2 (38mm, you can but its a very snug fit, and added some NF-A12x25 to see if triple would make much of a difference.
Attachment:
Noctua NH-d15S + SS FHP141v2 + 2x Noctua NF-A12x25.jpg


On the new Thermalright Silver Arrow T8, i tried the included TY143B on different speeds and Noctua NF-A15 to compare directly to Noctua NH-D15S, its an alright cooler, but not amazing i like more the Noctua. When uninstalling the T8, the termal spread didnt seem as good as noctua or scythe, not sure why, i mounted again and the same thing, not horrible but doesnt push all the thermal compound out there were some thicker spots to the sides of the CPU.
Attachment:
Thermalright SilverArrow T8 + TY143B.jpg


I leave you the tests that i manage to ran on the weekend (the red text are not new),
Attachment:
Aida64 Thermalright SilverArrow T8.PNG


Sneak peak, i already started the testing of the Kuma2, and im impressed...
Attachment:
Scythe Kuma2 + KazaFlex 25+15.jpg


But dont expect test too fast, the kuma allows for a lot of combos, it comes with 3 pairs of mounting clips (2 standard 25mm and 1 slim 15mm), so i can do a lot of combination.... will see how it goes over the week.


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:06 am 
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See any fractal patterns in the paste to indicated poor contact when you removed the Silver Arrow? I'm guessing not...maybe just poor flatness.

So far, the best combos for temp at < 800rpm look to be the D15S with 2 NF-A15 and your crazy triple fanned version..but I'm guessing the latter is noisier (and pricier).
Attachment:
cooler tests2.PNG


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:35 am 
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to clarify, the temperatures shown for the cpu package and max core are absolute/not adjusted for ambient, correct? as you mentioned this round of tests has a few larger discrepancies in ambient temperature so it might be worth adding a column for normalized results. that silverstone fan must move a lot of air at full tilt--adding the two noctua 120's didn't seem to grant more than a degree or so!


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:29 am 
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teodoro wrote:
to clarify, the temperatures shown for the cpu package and max core are absolute/not adjusted for ambient, correct?


Good eye. I'll republish graphs later today.

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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:50 am 
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Went ahead and churned out the graph showing max core temp delta over ambient. Found another error that had crept in as well and fixed it. The D15S with 2 A15's pulls a little farther ahead.
Attachment:
Cooler test3.PNG


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:13 am 
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Sorry for the delays, but took a long time to test the Fuma2, as it had a lot of configs that you could test them on.

I liked the Fuma2, its a mini NH-D15, that was design not to have issues with dual fans with even tall memory, its a very versatile cooler for this alone, specially since low rpm operation benefits from a second fan in most coolers. The cooler can even fit a standard 120x25mm fan on the front if you only use 2 ram slots, but you can even use it if you populate all with placing the fan slightly higher.
Attachment:
Scthe Kuma2 25 and 15 fans.jpg


I tested multiple setups, even the triple fan setups that are not very viable, while there are gains the coolers offest to the back makes the third fan to go really far back, but you might able to fit it fine just will be very close to the back of the case.
Attachment:
Scthe Kuma2 KazaFlex + NF-A12 fans.jpg


One thing before checking the charts is that to test triple fans with Scythe i had to use the Mugen5 Kazaflex fan, but its PWM % is different and thus my initial testing reflects different rpms for the same PWM%, this time i normalized the fan speeds regardless of the PWM % so it would be like having the same fan (physically they are the same). So to clarify, the KazaFlex 15R = the 120x15mm reverse included fans, the KazaFlex 25 = is the included 120x25mm included, and the KazaFlex 120 = is the fan that came on the Mugen5.
Attachment:
Scythe Fuma2 + Scythe and Noctua fans.PNG


Overall, the Fuma2 is a very competitive cooler for what it offers, while i still think the NH-D15S is a more capable cooler it has restrictions like to use it with dual fans you do need standard height memory, while the Fuma2 can use whatever you wish. For what it costs to me this is a better buy than the NH-D15S, unless you do need the extra cooling. I would use it as it comes, the cost of upgrading the fans is too high for what you gain, and they perform really well even at low rpms, the only scenarios i think i would justify it is in case someone wants to stop the fans, but being on the cpu cooler the impact is really big, so i wouldn't recommend it.

Disclaimer: remember this is a delided i7 8086k @4.3ghz on an open test bench, being hammer on Aida64, without the delid expect around 14C+ load temps to what you saw on the table, add another 5C if you let it turbo to 4.7ghz, more if you OC to 5ghz, like this i wouldn't be able to test low rpms, as of now im reaching 90c+ on 250rpm runs, so for this alone the current setup plays better for testing, but its not a likely scenario with a standard out of the box CPU, but its good to compare between coolers and fans.

The Ninja5 will be tested during the week, but im kinda tired of testing, probably will post next weekend, if you guys have any questions about the Fuma2 let me know, ill be around.


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Last edited by Abula on Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Running the numbers into a graph now. The Kuma2 with the KazeFlex 120 and KazeFlex 25 data looks like an error crept in. The max core delta over ambient goes 33.9C, 33.3, 37, 47.4 as the rpm drops.

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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:40 pm 
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Here's the graph with the Fuma2 data as compared to the Mugen 5 and Noctua. I left out the odd data...if you have a chance to rerun/reconfirm it, I'll update the graph - the KazeFlex fans are definitely a better fit for the Fuma than the Noctuas.
Attachment:
Cooler test5.PNG


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:49 pm 
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Friendly reminder that it is the Fuma 2 cooler from scythe, which sports two Kaze flex fans :P

Value aside, any thoughts on the sound qualities of the slim fans vs their respective 25mm versions (kaze slim vs normal, a12x15 vs a12x25)? Any obvious differences between the two slim fan types?


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:47 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Running the numbers into a graph now. The Fuma2 with the KazeFlex 120 and KazeFlex 25 data looks like an error crept in. The max core delta over ambient goes 33.9C, 33.3, 37, 47.4 as the rpm drops.
You mind editing the table i cant seem to find what you are saying, maybe a circle??? i can send you the test run if you wish.

teodoro wrote:
Friendly reminder that it is the Fuma 2 cooler from scythe, which sports two Kaze flex fans :P
Damn sorry, with so much kazeflex typing i made that name up... lol. Ill edit the table and comments =P

teodoro wrote:
Value aside, any thoughts on the sound qualities of the slim fans vs their respective 25mm versions (kaze slim vs normal, a12x15 vs a12x25)? Any obvious differences between the two slim fan types?
This is very very subjective, the noctua sound better, i said in the past i cant hear the noctua at 800rpm, where i can hear the scythe at 700rpm, but as Steve posted, the KazeFlex deliever better results, slightly but better, so asuming you can grab that difference with the 100rpm, then its a wash and its not worth investing $30 + $20, which is very close to what the cooler is worth.... my advise is use it as it comes, if in time the scythe go bad, then replace them with noctuas, but for me this KazeFlex are looking pretty good.

CA_Steve wrote:
the KazeFlex fans are definitely a better fit for the Kuma than the Noctuas.
I also saw that, didnt want to say yet, but i retested the low rpms for both noctua and scythe, this time the test were run back to back so there is less margin for differences. The Scythe are still slightly better.
Attachment:
Scythe Fuma2 + Scythe and Noctua fans RERUN.PNG


Once i finish the Ninja5, i might do a re test of the Noctua NH-D15S, i feel initally i didnt watch so close the Fluke, and when i did the tests was winter and less humidity, i want to see now. The ninja tests are fairly low compared to the fuma2, since the KazeFlex that comes with the cooler are 800rpm, so ill probably do 400 and 700 to compare to the fuma2, and 800rpms since its top speed, ill do the Noctuas, ill match the ninja tests and add the ones i did with Fuma2 to compare it to all the range of speeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:56 pm 
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Sorry for the delayed response. Dead internet here - working off a hotspot.

Fixed my errors, inserted the new 700 and 400rpm data.
Attachment:
Cooler test 6.PNG


The KF120 and KF25 data: note that the 1300rpm and 1000rpm data has the same max core temp while the ambient temp is higher for the lower rpm test...leading to the 1000rpm data point having a lower delta over ambient than the 1300rpm. Can't happen. Something got written down wrong.
Attachment:
Cooler test error1.PNG


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:55 pm 
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I'm done with Ninja5... not testing coolers for a long time, well i want to retest the NH-D15S... but will see when i get a chance.

The Ninja5 is also as a good performer, and again the KazeFlex fans perform very well, there is no way of knowing how well without comparing dbs, rpms are not that meaningful as the noctua is definitely quieter at the same rpms, but also they seem to perform worst than scythe... maybe by years end ill retest them once i get the room setup to measure sub 30db.

Attachment:
Scythe Ninja5.jpg


The Ninja5 is a big cooler, it would get very close to the back of some cases, in my test bench reaches the back of the plastic that goes into IO, not allowing the fan to go as low, also you need standard height memory as you can see it overlaps on all 4 slots.

Attachment:
Scythe Ninja5v2.jpg


Here are the Aida64 runs on the Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master + i7 8086k @4.3ghz,

Attachment:
Scythe Ninja5 Noctua vs Scythe fans.PNG


As with the Fuma2, the Ninja5 performs better with Scythe fans, at the same rpms the kazeFlex deliver around 3c better temps, If you compare the runs, the KazaFlex 700rpm run is the same as NF-A12x25 1000rpm, and the Kazaflex 850rpm is very similar to the NF-A12x25 at 1300rpms, give or take a little because of the ambient temperature difference.

Ninja5 performs very well at low rpms, but i prefer the Fuma2, because of the memory compatibility and performance is very similar overall, the test at 700rpms places both Fuma2 and Ninja5 very similar, while at lower rpms the Ninja5 is better, both coolers are really good for $60.

One conclusion that you might or not agree with me is that the Noctua NF-A12x25 are great fans, they are to me "subjectively" quieter at the same rpms, but they also perform worst, specially seen on the Fuma2 and Ninja5, its impossible for me to know whats better, specially without measuring the loudness of each fan on the heatsinks, but one thing is certain, the NF-A12x25 needs more rpms to perform similar, at least temperature wise, my guess is that the design is meant for this and not low rpm operation like we all use, not saying its bad, as i said before, to me they are quieter at the same rpms than any other fan i own, but you might also be sacrificing performance.... its still very open, but my personal conclusion, at least on the Scythe coolers, use them with the included fans.

I'm done testing coolers for some time, im probably going to retest them all when i finish the dedicated room to measure db instead of rpms. But in the mean time, i bought some of the newer thermal paste that i want to compare on the NH-D15S, like Noctua NT-H2, Thermal Grizzly kronaut, Thermalright TFX 2G, ARCTIC MX-4 2019 Edition, and i believe i have some Artic Silver Ceramique2 and GELID GC-Extreme.


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:27 am 
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I'm waiting for NF-A14x25 which Noctua told me would be released Q3/Q4 2019, it is now Q3 2019 so, soon. The 140mm version of the U12A will wipe the floor with everything if it's basically a U12A+. I am also looking to get rid of my standalone gfx card and go full iGPU so 9900k is looking like the best solution.

Currently I have to run all my fans (currently 5 NF-A12x25's) from one input thanks to Asus and it's fraud, and on 27% in speedfan, with the case (275Q) sitting 10 inches 2 o clock from me on my desk, it's completely silent. It's a heatwave currently, 25C ambient temp, and the pc is sat at 40C CPU temp, doing fine. Still yet to delid my 3770k. Also one of my fans is not installed (3x120's at front, the top one not installed) so it could be even less. The only issue I get is occasional fan clicking, and dust, even with dust filters.


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:30 pm 
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as I try to rationalize picking up a d15s, I realized that noctua has enough models and enough information on their website to piece together a pseudo noise comparison. my experiences with the a12x25, a14, a9, and a9x14 (subjectively) match up pretty well to how they've listed them. in light of abula's data, the biggest take away is probably that running your fans over 50% is seldom worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:39 pm 
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Here's the comparison of the coolers as shown in the latest set of data.Hopefully, I didn't add any errors this time around ;)
Attachment:
Cooler test 7.PNG

For grins, here's my takeaway from all of this...with a big grain of salt being it's just rpm data...not noise level data...yet! I added prices for the various configurations.
Attachment:
Cooler test 8.PNG

If you want to go big, get the NH-D15S with an additional NF-A15 fan for $102. Spending $30 per NF-A12x25 and adding them to other coolers doesn't get close to the price/efficiency point of the dual fanned D15 setup. The Scythe coolers all cluster pretty close together...and I wonder if the Mugen 5 Rev B had a second KazeFlex fan would it sneak below the temp of the dual fanned Ninja 5 setup at moderate rpm...


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:16 pm 
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teodoro wrote:
in light of abula's data, the biggest take away is probably that running your fans over 50% is seldom worth it.

I'd modify this to say running fans over 1000rpm is seldom worth it for temps...and if you care about noise, that number is lower.

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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:55 pm 
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This has been awesome, Abula. And thanks CA_Steve for the graphs.

Why do the Scythe coolers all seem to perform so similarly? Maybe it's an illusion from the line graphs, and a clustered bar chart or other visualization would make the differences stand out. Or with a hotter processor, the better heatsinks would pull away from the pack. But maybe they really are similar performers: they’re all 120mm towers and, apart from the Kotetsu, all appear to be about 1 kg with 6 heatpipes. Probably they all share the same base too.

I ended up buying the modest Kotetsu for my Ryzen upgrade. Originally I had planned to splash out on the good stuff: 3900X, X570, fast RAM. Then I realized 12 cores doesn't solve any of the problems I currently have with my PC. Finally I asked myself: if my aging i7-860 had twice the cores and 10% faster clocks, would I be any less desperate to upgrade? Nope. So I dialed it back to a 3600 and a X470. (AsRock Taichi -- Abula seems to like it, so it’s good enough for me!) Too bad I won't get to tinker endlessly with three independent fan speed profiles on the Fuma2. :P And I no longer have a use for this vintage Thermalright HR-05, which I bought in June in case I had to replace a noisy X570 PCH fan.


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 Post subject: Re: Noctua introduces twin NF-A12x25 NH-U12A CPU cooler
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:24 pm 
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SometimesWarrior wrote:
Why do the Scythe coolers all seem to perform so similarly?

But maybe they really are similar performers: they’re all 120mm towers and, apart from the Kotetsu, all appear to be about 1 kg with 6 heatpipes. Probably they all share the same base too.


I think lawyers call this 'asked and answered' :)

For grins, I made another graph to compare the original cooler in question and the reason for the thread :) along with the Mugen 5 with 2 of the NF-A12x25's and the Thermalright HR-22 woth one NF-A12x25 for comparison vs the Ninja and NH-D15S stock. Pricing (with any added fans) is noted.
Attachment:
Cooler test 9.PNG


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