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 Post subject: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Hello, I need advice about my case situation and fan recommendation.

- I have Define R5 and I put his stock fans to case fan controller. One stock fan is aimed at HDD cage (intake) and other is bottom intake. Problem is that when are fan on 7V I can hear sometimes humming noise like fan speed is going up and down. I read from this that this is known problem with R5 cases. From other forum:

"The humming is normally caused by the fans being too close to a hexagonal holes. I had the same problem on my Fractal XL R2."
"R5 is at fault, because of the shape of the holes. I tried with/without, different fans, and all different setups to isolate the issue. It is 100% the R5 top vents."

So can I solve this only but putting some smaller fan on bottom intake (120mm)? In reserve I have Noctua 120mm 700 redux but it can only work as far as I know on 12V so it will be needed to be connected to motherboard. Any other solution? I am pretty sure that bottm fan is the problem but I need to test it more.

- Other thing is that I want to replace my CPU fan which is Noctua industrial 3000, it has some buzzing noises (I read that is normal for those industrial fans?) and sometimes when I turn my PC during cold times I got a mesage that my CPU fan is no working. Than I restart computer and it starts normally, so maybe it start up with a delay and mbo after I turn PC on it recognises him as 0RPM at it gives that message? I have same situation with my previous board so fan must be the problem in this case. Any fan recommendation that doesn`t have problems (humming noise, PWM problems)?

My favorites (I want a silent fan with a good pressure):
- Coolermaster silencio 4pin 120mm
- Arctic Bionix P120 4pin
- Bequiet Silent wings 3 120mm 3 pin (I read that PWM versions has some problems)

Cooler is Coolermaster TPC 600, CPU is Ryzen R5 1600 but in future it will be replaced for some 12c Ryzen.


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:50 am 
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Welcome to SPCR.

Could you describe the other components (motherboard, gfx card, PSU, etc) so we can understand the total system and the heat generated?

So, only two case fans used and they are positioned in front and on the bottom? My first thought is to move the bottom fan to the rear and then plug both into the motherboard for control so you can set up a quiet profile.

What country are you in? It'll help with part picking/availability.

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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:21 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Welcome to SPCR.

Could you describe the other components (motherboard, gfx card, PSU, etc) so we can understand the total system and the heat generated?

So, only two case fans used and they are positioned in front and on the bottom? My first thought is to move the bottom fan to the rear and then plug both into the motherboard for control so you can set up a quiet profile.

What country are you in? It'll help with part picking/availability.


Sorry for late answer, seems like forum was down for a couple of days?

GPU: RX 580
PSU: Evga G2 850W
Mbo: Asus x470 strix - on this mobo manual it is written that cpu connector is 4 pin but in BIOS i have option to change between DC and PWM options. 3pin fan on DC mode will be able to set on other voltage between 5V,7V and 12V? pictures of mbo manual in attachment.

Those two fans (Fractal stock fans) I described is connected to fan controller, it seems logical to me because easy ability to change perfomance/noise, min 7V at summer, 5V at winter.

I have other 2 Phanteks 140XP. 1 as front intake and 1 as rear exhaust, they are connected to mbo - PWM control.

I live in Croatia, Europe, I can buy it from EU amazon if it is easier for you to recommend. You can use this page:

https://www.hagglezon.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:59 am 
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Ok - thanks for the additional information.

Here's what I'd try first: put both Phanteks in front with their quiet speed adapters, put one of the Fractal fans in the rear, and remove/turn off the bottom fan. If it isn't already so, close the top moduvent, so you have a clear front to back airflow. Hook all three fans into the mobo chassis fan connections. The Asus mobo should auto-detect which are PWM and which is the DC powered fan. Then, experiment with fan profiles so you get near silence at idle and decent temps while gaming (where the gfx card fans will be the primary noise contributor). The Fractal fan probably has a start up min of 500rpm or so. But, in the rear, it'll be less noticeable. You should be able to get away with 800rpm max chassis fan speeds while gaming...if not less. See if that resolves your issues.

CPU cooler: in the future "some 12c Ryzen" - just double checking, some 12 core (as in the $500 105W R9 3900X) or 6 core/12 thread (as in the $200 65W R5 3600 or $250 95W R5 3600X)?

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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:16 pm 
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Hi verif,

That is an interesting problem. I have a Define R5 as well, and the two supplied 140mm fans are plugged into the case's built-in controller. One is in the front in the middle position, and one at the back. I also have a 120mm fan in the lower front position. I generally run all three fans at 7V: they are audible, but mostly I hear my hard drives, and I haven't noticed a hum from the fans. All vents are closed and my HDD cage is in the bottom position only.

My guess is that the hum is caused by either a fan or hard drive making contact with the case and causing the case to vibrate or resonate. I suspect that, at 7V, the fans don't blow enough air to cause any interference with the vent holes, whatever shape they happen to be. So the hum might be fixed by making sure the fans and hard drives are correctly positioned on their rubber isolators, and aren't touching any metal parts of the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:34 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Ok - thanks for the additional information.

Here's what I'd try first: put both Phanteks in front with their quiet speed adapters, put one of the Fractal fans in the rear, and remove/turn off the bottom fan. If it isn't already so, close the top moduvent, so you have a clear front to back airflow. Hook all three fans into the mobo chassis fan connections. The Asus mobo should auto-detect which are PWM and which is the DC powered fan. Then, experiment with fan profiles so you get near silence at idle and decent temps while gaming (where the gfx card fans will be the primary noise contributor). The Fractal fan probably has a start up min of 500rpm or so. But, in the rear, it'll be less noticeable. You should be able to get away with 800rpm max chassis fan speeds while gaming...if not less. See if that resolves your issues.

CPU cooler: in the future "some 12c Ryzen" - just double checking, some 12 core (as in the $500 105W R9 3900X) or 6 core/12 thread (as in the $200 65W R5 3600 or $250 95W R5 3600X)?


I don`t think that is necessary to rotate the fans, that seems like a drastic change to me, I mention in first post that I suspect that bottom fan is problem. It seems best for me that one Phanteks fan (I will put Quiet speed adapters, I forgot about that, currenty they are set in idle to 600rpm, while gaming they jump to 850rpm) is front and one back since they can move massive amount of air. When I bought them couple of years ago they were in top class by perfomance/noise. Also top moduvent is closed.

Update: On phanteks page it is written this for my fans: Speed (RPM) with QSA: 300-900 ± 250 rpm. Does this mean that on some fans with QSA I can get in worst case max 650rpm?


For CPU AMD mention if I recall that one more generation of Ryzen will come to AM4 boards so when that happens I will buy some used 3rd generation Ryzen or something from new generation but I want that difference to be more than 50% in perfomance, so R9 3900X is in the game or 4600 (probably better to wait that, it will 70% be used for gaming), and I must see how my mbo VRM will perform.

I will try tonight to install Asus Ai suite 3, as far as I know many called it shitty program but I it can serve temporary to test fans. Or maybe is better to test it in BIOS and take some time to change the fan curves? Forgot to mention that I only hear that humming noise at night, my ambient is then whisper silent. First I will try this, then maybe in future rotate fans.

What about my CPU fan recommendation, what is good to replace my buzzing Noctua fan?

SometimesWarrior wrote:
Hi verif,

That is an interesting problem. I have a Define R5 as well, and the two supplied 140mm fans are plugged into the case's built-in controller. One is in the front in the middle position, and one at the back. I also have a 120mm fan in the lower front position. I generally run all three fans at 7V: they are audible, but mostly I hear my hard drives, and I haven't noticed a hum from the fans. All vents are closed and my HDD cage is in the bottom position only.

My guess is that the hum is caused by either a fan or hard drive making contact with the case and causing the case to vibrate or resonate. I suspect that, at 7V, the fans don't blow enough air to cause any interference with the vent holes, whatever shape they happen to be. So the hum might be fixed by making sure the fans and hard drives are correctly positioned on their rubber isolators, and aren't touching any metal parts of the case.


When I bought my define R5 it has problem with case vibration (buzzing noise but when I put finger on case, it stops. With my current problem humming just resumes so I think that case vibrationis not to blame), as I google it it is widespread issue of R5 cases. I solved this by putting rubber pieces in HDD slot, rubber dampening to screws and I put screws on the side of HDD cage (Fractal support told me for the last one). I have SSD and HDD, only one cage, second is out of the case. That solved my vibration problem, no buzzing since then.

Can vibration/humming be caused if my front fans are touching, they are working in different speeds but they framework are in touch, maybe to put some rubber inbetween but I don`t know will there be a space for that? Probably doens`t effect, just my observation.

Looking today inside the case I remembered that my bottom fan is only on two screws, it is rock stable but when i mounted it long time ago, it wasnt compatible with holes compleatly/ it couldn`t be centered so that all screw fit. Tonight if I have time I will test it in whisper silent ambient and list carefully to other fans when changing the speeds.

Sorry for my bad english, I am not a native english speaker.


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:12 pm 
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Quote:
I don`t think that is necessary to rotate the fans, that seems like a drastic change to me

When SPCR reviewed the R5 as a gaming build, Mike found that having a bottom fan didn't add any value, but adding a second front fan did. Since you have the two Phanteks, it might be best for thermal and acoustic performance to place them both in the front and place the Fractal fan in the rear. The R5 fan is decent, but I don't think it'll go below 500rpm where the Phanteks will.

Quote:
Does this mean that on some fans with QSA I can get in worst case max 650rpm?

Haven't seen any data that says one way or another. Try 'em. Or, if 600rpm is silent to you, leave the QSA's off.

Asus: try the BIOS level fan controls first. They've come a long way.

Vibration: A while after I did my R4 build I noticed some noise coming from the front...turned out the fan cage had popped out and was leaning against my HDD...

CPU fan: For an inexpensive fan, the Scythe SY1225DB12M-P 120mm Slipstream PWM is pretty decent. Looks like it's ~14 euros out of Amazon.it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:49 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
When SPCR reviewed the R5 as a gaming build, Mike found that having a bottom fan didn't add any value, but adding a second front fan did. Since you have the two Phanteks, it might be best for thermal and acoustic performance to place them both in the front and place the Fractal fan in the rear. The R5 fan is decent, but I don't think it'll go below 500rpm where the Phanteks will.


ok, thanks. I will probably remove bottom fan, maybe spare it to when I upgrade to new Ryzen CPU, that should put heavier load on mbo VRM and put that fractal on upper exhaust fan, that should help to keep the temp cool. And when I switch CPU fan I will maybe try to put two Phanteks in front and FD stock on back.

CA_Steve wrote:
Haven't seen any data that says one way or another. Try 'em. Or, if 600rpm is silent to you, leave the QSA's off.


I will leave Phanteks without QSA, on 600rpm in idle they are silent, after 950rpm in load they become noisy for me so that their upper limit in my PC.

Stupid questions: Is it okay if on Noctua page for my fan is stated that minimal speed is 750rpm but on my PC it is on 650rpm. Normal? No any kind of damage/problem for fan? Also for my Phanteks in BIOS I can set them to min duty cycle 40% (that should set them below 600rpm but didn`t), they are still around 650rpm but regarding spec they min rpm should be 600. I presumme that this is becasue +- fan specification?
One thing I noticed, when my sidepanel was open, one phanteks fan was at 650rpm other at 670rpm but with spinning they didn`t seem to spin even, one had full white circle effect, on other I could see/recognize blades spinning.

CA_Steve wrote:
Asus: try the BIOS level fan controls first. They've come a long way.

Vibration: A while after I did my R4 build I noticed some noise coming from the front...turned out the fan cage had popped out and was leaning against my HDD...


I opened today the side panel and listen to fans and Noctua is definetly buzzing, but I didin`t noticed humming noise, seems it not frequent, I ussually noticed this when I surfing in idle. I tryed some Aida64 stress test but couldn`t reproduce that humming noise. Shouldn`t be vibration becasue last time it happens I change fan controllers levels and only on 5V problems would gone and noise didn`t stop when I touched the case.

CA_Steve wrote:
CPU fan: For an inexpensive fan, the Scythe SY1225DB12M-P 120mm Slipstream PWM is pretty decent. Looks like it's ~14 euros out of Amazon.it.


That Scythe fan seems more to me lika a airflow fan, shouldn`t static pressure be very important for CPU fan? (correct me if I am wrong)

My current buzzing Noctua is set to 1500rpm max and by this test it has almost 2,0 mmH2O at that rpm compared to Scythe that has only 1,0 mmH2O.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThsuBvPkGcc

maybe it is better to give a little more money a buy a Silent wings 3? What about it`s PWM problems, has Bequiet solved this or 3pin version is better?


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:16 pm 
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Quote:
Stupid questions: Is it okay if on Noctua page for my fan is stated that minimal speed is 750rpm but on my PC it is on 650rpm. Normal? No any kind of damage/problem for fan? Also for my Phanteks in BIOS I can set them to min duty cycle 40% (that should set them below 600rpm but didn`t), they are still around 650rpm but regarding spec they min rpm should be 600. I presumme that this is becasue +- fan specification?

Noctua speed: There is variability in all fans.
Phanteks: yes.

cpu fan: <shrug> try the Silents Wings 3, then. The Scythe Slipstream fan was used on some of their earlier coolers..now it's the Glidestream - didn't see the latter available on Amazon. You can quickly go down the rabbit hole when staring at specifications. One fan on paper might have higher static pressure than another when at max speed...but 1) what SPCR member is going to run their CPU fan at max speed, and 2) without detailed side by side testing with your specific cooler and it's specific fin spacing, fin thickness and dimensions, it's not possible to tell you in a black and white way which is going to give you the best thermal performance at a specific SPL and sound the best. We can just give you some suggestions. Go with the Scythe if money is tight. Go with the bequiet! if you want to spend more. Try the Noctua 120 A12x25 PWM if you want to spend a lot.

If you end up with a 12 core Ryzen down the road, you will be replacing the cooler with something better.

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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:03 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Quote:
Stupid questions: Is it okay if on Noctua page for my fan is stated that minimal speed is 750rpm but on my PC it is on 650rpm. Normal? No any kind of damage/problem for fan? Also for my Phanteks in BIOS I can set them to min duty cycle 40% (that should set them below 600rpm but didn`t), they are still around 650rpm but regarding spec they min rpm should be 600. I presumme that this is becasue +- fan specification?

Noctua speed: There is variability in all fans.
Phanteks: yes.

cpu fan: <shrug> try the Silents Wings 3, then. The Scythe Slipstream fan was used on some of their earlier coolers..now it's the Glidestream - didn't see the latter available on Amazon. You can quickly go down the rabbit hole when staring at specifications. One fan on paper might have higher static pressure than another when at max speed...but 1) what SPCR member is going to run their CPU fan at max speed, and 2) without detailed side by side testing with your specific cooler and it's specific fin spacing, fin thickness and dimensions, it's not possible to tell you in a black and white way which is going to give you the best thermal performance at a specific SPL and sound the best. We can just give you some suggestions. Go with the Scythe if money is tight. Go with the bequiet! if you want to spend more. Try the Noctua 120 A12x25 PWM if you want to spend a lot.

If you end up with a 12 core Ryzen down the road, you will be replacing the cooler with something better.


In BIOS Phanteks fans can go in minimal duty cyle to 20% but there is no change in rpm, around 600rpm is their lowest.

I think I will go with Silent wings 3. For PWM model problem is described here:

https://thermalbench.com/2016/09/05/be- ... -mm-fan/3/

So 3pin or 4pin? Did they solve those problems?

Are you sure abuot cooler :D , those Ryzen are usually at 105W TDP? At least at stock?


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:41 am 
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I havent had any issues with Bequiet BL067, i seen some people reference that review, i haven't experience what he says on it, i bought 12 on 3 different orders, and none had what he experienced, worth mentioning that he uses Aquero fan controller and i use Bios fan control, on multiple boards and brands (MSI, AsRock and Gigabyte). One thing that i experience was on AsRock on a autodetect header it recognized it as 3pin and was undervolting it instead of pwm control, like this the fan dont drop as low, once i manually set it on the bios to PWM it work as with all previous motherboards.

Now its your money and bequiet fans are expensive, up to you if you want to take the risk, as i said i havent had a single issues (that its the fans fault), but i cant say for sure if his issues are related to his fan controller or way of testing or certain hardware. Personally if i do a build again i would continue to use BL067.

Another option that its not as quiet but still decent are Thermalright TY147ASQ, their range of operation is 300-1300rpms via pwm, and they are quiet below 800rpms, indauble on my build around 400rpms, they work fine with all Asrock and MSI bios fan control (havent tested on gigabyte).


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:23 pm 
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@ Abula

Thanks but I forgot to mention that CPU cooler Coolermaster TPC 600 only accepts 120mm fan. On thermaltake page, in their lineup I only see this 120mm fan:

http://www.thermalright.de/en/fans/59/ty-127?c=10

There is a note: *Please be aware of the fact, the TY-127 is only compatible to the Macho 120 SBM*

So probably nothing from thermaltake.

EDIT: Has anyone here has expiriances with Akasa fans? I remember that one year ago I saw post on other forum from one guy who told very good thing about them, especially for radiator fans.

http://www.akasa.com.tw/update.php?tpl= ... l=AK-FN058

http://www.akasa.com.tw/update.php?tpl= ... l=AK-FN065

Noise/perfomance seems nice, price is around 15€.


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:11 pm 
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verif wrote:
Thanks but I forgot to mention that CPU cooler Coolermaster TPC 600 only accepts 120mm fan.
Have you considered Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM, its a nice fan and its 120mm, controllable from 300-2100rpms. If you don't like the color or pricing, check Scythe Kaze Flex PWM, controllable from 300-1200rpms.

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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:14 am 
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verif wrote:
EDIT: Has anyone here has expiriances with Akasa fans? I remember that one year ago I saw post on other forum from one guy who told very good thing about them, especially for radiator fans.
This fan has been out for about ten years, it was one of the first PWM fans available in Europe, but was unknown in North America until fairly recently. I used the Apache Black in quite a few builds for gaming family members, including as a replacement CPU fan. A fairly common configuration was to replace both the CPU fan and the case exhaust fan with Apache Blacks and then run them at the same PWM duty cycle setting using a PWM splitter cable.

Upside: Good quality silent bearing, the Apache as its name suggests is Black, nice braided fan lead and soft fan mountings are supplied. Today the Apache is still one of the better 120mm fans at the 15€ price point. From what I recall the Viper is the Yellow one, saw a lot of these in other people's builds but didn't use them myself.

Downside: Apache won't drop much below 500 rpm at idle, don't know about the Viper.

Back in the day I took a PWM fan profile for the Apache Black, I think this was with the first release of Fan Xpert on an Asus motherboard. This is a list of PWM % duty cycle settings and the measured fan speed

20% 499
30% 505
40% 505
50% 547
60% 721
70% 981
80% 1095
90% 1240
100% 1298

As you can see it kept fan speeds down until about the 50% PWM duty cycle point was reached and then ramped up speeds quite sharply. I don't know if this is still the case with current Apache Blacks.


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 Post subject: Re: Hexagonal holes problem and CPU fan recommendation
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:22 am 
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Abula wrote:
verif wrote:
Thanks but I forgot to mention that CPU cooler Coolermaster TPC 600 only accepts 120mm fan.
Have you considered Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM, its a nice fan and its 120mm, controllable from 300-2100rpms. If you don't like the color or pricing, check Scythe Kaze Flex PWM, controllable from 300-1200rpms.


lodestar wrote:
verif wrote:
EDIT: Has anyone here has expiriances with Akasa fans? I remember that one year ago I saw post on other forum from one guy who told very good thing about them, especially for radiator fans.
This fan has been out for about ten years, it was one of the first PWM fans available in Europe, but was unknown in North America until fairly recently. I used the Apache Black in quite a few builds for gaming family members, including as a replacement CPU fan. A fairly common configuration was to replace both the CPU fan and the case exhaust fan with Apache Blacks and then run them at the same PWM duty cycle setting using a PWM splitter cable.

Upside: Good quality silent bearing, the Apache as its name suggests is Black, nice braided fan lead and soft fan mountings are supplied. Today the Apache is still one of the better 120mm fans at the 15€ price point. From what I recall the Viper is the Yellow one, saw a lot of these in other people's builds but didn't use them myself.

Downside: Apache won't drop much below 500 rpm at idle, don't know about the Viper.

Back in the day I took a PWM fan profile for the Apache Black, I think this was with the first release of Fan Xpert on an Asus motherboard. This is a list of PWM % duty cycle settings and the measured fan speed

20% 499
30% 505
40% 505
50% 547
60% 721
70% 981
80% 1095
90% 1240
100% 1298

As you can see it kept fan speeds down until about the 50% PWM duty cycle point was reached and then ramped up speeds quite sharply. I don't know if this is still the case with current Apache Blacks.


Thanks for Akasa duty cycle. Maybe I even risk with that brand, to try something new.
Regarding that Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM, I remember that I found couple of times people that are complain on some fan (motor) clicking on Noctua fans and with in mind that I have broken Noctua I would rather go with some other brand. That Scythe Kaze Flex PWM, I don`t like specification, too much decibels and too low static pressure for my taste, of course CA_Steve told me that "You can quickly go down the rabbit hole when staring at specifications" but I would rather go with a little bit security, better spec. For now Silent wings 3 120mm PWM is on top of my pyramid of buying but for now I am just looking other cheaper alternatives, no hurry.


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