I'm putting a new PC together for myself and I could use som help.
It's been over 6 years since I made my current PC so bear with me if some of my questions seems obvious.

The PC is to be used for spare-time electronics design (schematic and PCB layout) but mostly research as I'm planning to build my own house.
I'm designing the house in Google SketchUp 8 for now but I'll be switching to a "professional" CAD program down the line (don't know what program that will be yet)

I'm planning to use a stripped down Antec 300 case (drive cages and front panel removed as I don't need them)
The PC will live under my desk on a shelf that sits app. 15cm over the floor (keeps most of the dust at bay)

Here's what I've considered so far:
Monitors: 2 x Dell UP2414Q (3840 x 2160 @ 60Hz @ 30 bit color) - Displayport 1.2a
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Graphics card: PNY Quadro K2000
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GPU cooler: ?
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CPU: Intel Core i7 4770 or 4770K (The price is the same)
I'm not thrilled about the poor TIM in the 4770/4770K so I'm willing to consider another/slower processor.
Also under consideration i5 4670, 4670K but as far as I can tell they also suffer from poor TIM.
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CPU cooler: A tower cooler that will allow me to install a duct that diverts the hot air directly out of the case
I will probably install a mechanical support to help the motherboard bear the weight of the heavy cooler.
Something similar to whats installed on the graphics card HERE http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1322-page3.html
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Motherboard: ?
Need to have:
Undervolt / underclock of CPU (preferably dynamically using a program similar to RMClock)
Decent warranty
Decent onboard audio
Nice to have:
Undervolt of RAM
The option to install a second graphics card later on in order to run a third UP2414Q if I so desire.
- decent space between the two graphics card slots so I can install a quiet aftermarket cooler
Alternatively - a monitor output on the motherboard itself that's able to run the UP2414Q
If I decide to install a third UP2414Q later on it will only be for displaying "static" content. (Datasheets, tool-bars etc.)
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HDD: ?
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SSD: Samsung PRO
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HDD / SSD mount: Homemade using Novibes elastics
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RAM: ?
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PSU: ?
I've had good experience with Seasonic and Corsair in the past so I'll probably look in that direction
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Blu-ray drive:
External - only connected when needed (very rarely)
Preferably powered by the PC so I don't need an external power brick
I don't need to burn blu-ray but an integrated CD/DVD burner would be nice
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Fans:
140mm in and 140mm out running at the same speed (possibly controlled by CPU temperature)
120mm in to balance out the air that the graphics card pulls out of the case
I'm aiming to balance the volume of air entering the case and the volume of air exiting the case to avoid "false air" seeping through cracks and small holes in the case.
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Case:
Modified Antec 300 (see attachment)
The front panel and drive cages removed. Holes in front blocked off with an aluminium sheet thick enough not to rattle.
I will cut holes in the bottom for the PSU, 120mm and 140mm intake.
The PC is out of sight beneath my desk so the ugly front won't be a problem.

Questions:
1) Is it even necessary with dynamical undervolt/underclock these days (using a program similar to RMClock), or can the CPU do that on it's own.
2) Is it safe to say that Xeon is not viable for my needs?

Comments/suggestions are more than welcome.
Thanks.

That's a lot of pixels! I'm assuming you'll use DisplayPort to hook them up. That particular screen isn't so good over HDMI as it won't do the full resolution at 60Hz. Maybe just something to think about if ever you might want to use them in HDMI.

Case:
You're not going to have much in it. If space is at all an issue for you (eg, if you don't live in a cathedral, warehouse, aircraft hanger, barn) then MicroATX or smaller might make sense.

Graphics card:
That cooler might be a noise concern. It has a TDP of only 51W so could be run passively with the right cooler. If anything an Accelero S1 Plus would be massive overkill! It might not be so loud but it's worth considering in future if the card ends up being loud.

CPU:
K versions are worth it for overclocking. If it's the same price, go for the K but otherwise it's not worth it.

Motherboard:
Asus is generally considered best for fan control which may be of interest to you. Intel H87 chipset based boards might be best in terms of undervolting and underclocking as they're generally more HTPC based rather than being about all out overclocking as some Z87 boards are. 'Gaming' boards are probably best avoided if overclocking is not your aim.

HDD:
What do you intend to use it for? When you're spending that much on screens, trying to go fully SSD won't cost much more if you do need a lot of storage. If you don't need a lot of storage, drop it entirely.

PSU:
Any ideas on power consumption you'll be needing? I'm thinking less than 200W. A 400W PSU like a passive Seasonic X400 would seem like a good option.

Thanks for your input.

Monitors:
I'm planning to use displayport 1.2 in order to run 3840x2160 @ 60hz @ 30bit color. The Quadro K2000 has 2 displayport 1.2 outputs but just to be safe I have e-mailed PNY asking if the card will support the monitors at the given resolution / frame rate / color depth.

Case: I have a dedicated space/shelf beneath the desk where the PC and all the wiring is hidden away so I have no interest in moving down to mATX.

Graphics card:
I'm planning to exchange the cooler to one that expels the hot air directly from the case as shown on the attached drawing in my initial post.
The factory cooler will probably be too loud.

CPU:
The CPU will not be overclocked. It will more than likely be underclocked/undervolted to save power/heat though.
I've read that there's no point in selecting suffix T, S (I guess it also counts for suffix TE) unless the motherboard doesn't support underclocking/undervolting.
I can't figure out if it better to get the suffix K or the "No suffix" for underclocking/undervolting though.

Motherboard: I'll be studing chipsets this weekend - thanks for your inputs.

HDD: 1TB will be more than enough for now - I could probably make do with 250gb but I doubt that will be profitable
I might end up simply running everything off one SSD as you suggest.

PSU: I have a Seasonic SS-400FB sitting on the shelf collecting dust but it probably doesn't have the right plugs and I would also prefer modular cabling.
I'm not a big fan of having a hot power brick laying outside my case - otherwise I might look into PicoPSU.
Rather than having a passive PSU I'd much rather have a PSU with a very slow spinning fan - slow enough not to be audible.
Call me old fashioned, but the way I see it, that ought to prolong the life of the components inside the PSU.

I can see that this thread should probably have been placed in the "System Advice / Troubleshooting" section. Sorry.

Done.

Can you describe the desk cabinet a little more (the dimensions, is it open in front/back, will the PC have plenty of airflow..., is it sturdy enough to not induce it's own acoustic signature)?

At first glance, this seems to be more of a tinkering project for the fun of it rather than what might be neccessary for a quiet, yet powerful system - which is ok.

I've attached a few photos of the desk.
The red box is the PC. The 2 gray boxes are drawer units.

I'm currently running an old P4 Northwood system with XP on it and since XP is due for retirement, I thought it was time to upgrade.
..so I would'nt simply call it a tinkering project - I like to think that anything worth doing, is worth doing right.

I have no heat issues with my current setup so I don't suspect it'll be a problem with the new setup - even though the system is installed in a somewhat confined space. This is also the reason why the PC will draw all the intake air from the bottom of the case - in order not to mix cold and warm air.
The PC shelf is very sturdy - made from 30x30mm extruded aluminium profile and plywood.

Thanks for your input and for moving the thread.

Edit: Before someone asks. The 2 pieces of plywood beneath the PC can be moved so that the PC stands on them both.

Thanks for the illustrations.. I still can't tell how much clearance you have on top...

The Antec 300 will have 160mm clearance on top.

Please see attachments.
Sorry for the cable clutter, it will be corrected when I install the new system.
I'm currently using an Antec Solo case that's standing on it's front.

Please ask if you have any further questions.

Thanks for the clarification. Here's my thoughts:

- I think the bottom to top airflow might lower temps 5C, maybe less. While the PC is in a 5 sided box...it's a pretty large box. It'll be a 100-150W space heater at your feet/legs. If you do go this route, consider you are spending a couple of grand on the displays - why not buy a killer case designed for bottom to top airflow? The Silverstone FT02 comes to mind. The only thing to be aware of is heatpipe orientation.

- CPU and heatspreader TIM: Yeah, it's inferior. But, unless you are an overvolter, it's a non-issue with a decent cooler.

- gfx card: The Quaddro is basically a GTX 650 with different ports and sold for 3x the $'s. Too bad the GTX 750 Ti only has (at most) 1 DP 1.2 port, as it would run rings around the Quaddro, cost way less and use less power. Heck, it might still be cheaper and use less power to buy two GTX 750 Ti's

- power use: A Haswell i7 system uses maybe 130W stressed. Add the TDPs for the gfx card(s).

- Dell monitors: there's been a bit of chatter on successfully getting 4k60 to work on monitors, Dell and others. Seems to be a bit of hit/miss depending on OS/graphics processor/drivers uses. Probably worth additional research before taking the plunge.

why not buy a killer case designed for bottom to top airflow?
For one, I never look at the case. It's hidden away along with all the ugly wires, so I don't need a pretty case.
I like the case to be as open as possible for better workspace and to improve airflow, hence the stripped drive cages.
I have no need for all the features in the Silverstone cage, plus I'm not happy with the fact that all the connections are placed at the top of the case. I'd much rather have them on the rear like a normal case.
This makes it much easier to connect cables to the PC as the headroom in the "footwell" is limited.
The PSU's location in the FT02 is also less suited for my setup.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

CPU:
I'm comparing 4700, 4700K and 4771 but I find it challenging to decide what's more suited in terms of manual undervolt/underclock and interaction with SpeedStep , Turbo mode and motherboard support.
I can see that there's a 4790 coming soon (Q2 '14) but that's hardly worth the wait as it's just a faster 4771 as far as I can tell.
Suffix T , S and TE is pointless for my use (correct me if I'm wrong).

You started a thread called "Haswell motherboards that can undervolt" not that long ago, but that seems to be dead in the water, sadly.

GFX/monitors:
Thanks for the heads-up. I might postpone the monitor / GFX purchase and stick with my two Dell 2007FP for starters.
The onboard graphics on the i7 should be able to run those two monitors if the motherboard has the right connectors.
Otherwise might just get an el-cheapo gfx for starters.

4k @ 30hz is a poor solution from what I can read (motion blur) and when the monitors supports 60hz then obviously thats preferable.

Undervolting thread was a disappointment. None of the 4 mobo mfgrs responded to my email.

case: The Antec case is ok - nothing stellar about it in terms of cooling @ low noise.

I've been studying power consumption for 4670k vs 4770k.
According to vortez.net the 4670k consumes 43W idling, 4770k consumes 54W.
Abula also states HERE that the 4670k runs cooler than the 4770k (80C vs 65C at full power) which confirms the above.

Do you know why the 4670k runs cooler/consumes less when the TDP is the same as for the 4770k?

You mention HERE that you plan to undervolt your 4670k.
How is that coming along?

You mention HERE
Have you been able to figure out the science behind this?
Why dosen't Intel run the CPU at the lowered VID all the time?

Are you happy with the way SpeedStep performs?
Is it possible to configure different Vcore's for different SpeedStep frequenqies?

Thanks.

Ran into a mobo roadblock and stopped. Will try again sometime in future.


nope. Just noticed the results, commented and moved on.


yep

nope.

What's so special about a CAD GFX vs a gaming GFX? - what's the difference?
I seem to remember reading about someone converting a gaming GFX to a high-end adobe CAD card some years back simply by means of some software tweak/modification - it seems ridiculous that the price is 3 times higher if the hardware is the same.

I'm reading about fans and have a question regarding PWM fans.
When I made my current PC (over 6 years ago) PWM fans weren't around.
I remember though that I had a fan controller that simply PWM'ed the 12V supply to the fan.
In many cases this resulted in coil whine coming from the fan, so I replaced the fan controller with one that had linear regulators.

Does current PWM fans (4-pins) eliminate the problem of coil whine ? - if not, what's so great about 4-pin PWM fans vs. regular 3-pin fans?

In hardware there might be some differences. You can expect professional cards to stick to the reference design as reliability is more important than bragging rights of getting 1MHz higher overclock. Sometimes the RAM is better. You can probably expect build quality to be better and in some cases they are better setup for multi monitor viewing, as you have found.

BIOS flashing will allow you to change from Quaddro to Geforce and back again in many cases. The price difference is largely because of certification. If you buy a high end professional card you expect it to render things EXACTLY as intended in whatever application it is you are using. That testing and certification costs money. It also means only certain drivers are certified for certain applications. Unless you are using a high end professional 3D application, a Quaddro is almost always a waste of money. The rare circumstances like yours are an exception.

I'd avoid Quaddro unless you really need the certification. Your niche 4k multi-monitor need puts you in a difficult place.

Thank you edh for your thorough reply.
The thought of using Geforce rather than Quadro is growing on me.

I will only be using one monitor to display CAD. The other monitor will display toolbars, datasheets etc.
This leads me to believe that a single GFX with 2 outputs (displayport 1.2) is the best way of doing it when the goal is a quiet PC.
Two GFX cards with 1 output each would yield close to twice the power consumption - correct me if I'm wrong.

Another way of doing it would be to use the Haswell Integrated Graphics to drive the monitor with the "static" content.
Found HERE

If this is possible then obviously I would only need one GFX with one displayport 1.2.

Edit: According to THIS webpage, it should be possible to run one of the monitors directly from the motherboard @ 60hz (The Dell monitors resolution is 3840 x 2160)
The motherboard in question is an Asus H87-Pro

The link below is current and shows power consumption for multi monitor support amongst other things:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVID ... Ti/23.html

Only one nVidia card with dual DP outputs on Newegg and not sure if they are both DP 1.2:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/ ... ng/23.html

At 3840 x 2160 you may find some CAD fonts too small. Even some web pages are hard-coded with small fonts. OS system fonts can be changed, but not all fonts are adjustable in some apps. Have you already checked if such ergonomics are acceptable to you?

I'm using an ASUS PB278Q (2560 x 1440) and find some fonts uncomfortably small, especially at longer viewing distances. Also graphics performance is about 1/2 that of 1920x1080, in your case it will be even less, so you may start noticing slow CAD screen redraw.

smilingcrow: Thanks for the links, very informative.
Do you remember the name of the dual DP 1.2 nVidia card that you found on Newegg? I can't seem to find it.

Rebellious: Thanks for your input - you have a point.
I'm currently using two Dell 2007FP 1600x1200 20.1" monitors (pixel pitch 0.255mm) on my desktop pc.
My laptop has a 15" 1600x1200 screen (pixel pitch 0.19mm).

I prefer the pixel pitch of the laptop over the desktop monitors.

However, the pixel pitch of the 24" Dell 4K monitor is only 0.137mm.
The 32" Dell 4K monitor (UP3214Q) has a pixel pitch of 0.182mm - very close to my laptop. Sadly, this monitor costs twice as much as the 24".
A new 4K Dell monitor was released in my country this week though, the 28" U28D590DS with a pixel pitch of 0.1614mm. This is only half the price of the 24" but sadly it features a TN-panel. (Edit: The U28D590DS is produced by Samsung, not Dell)

Obviously, moving the monitors closer to compensate for a smaller pixel pitch will only work to some extend.
I'll see if I can find a computer store nearby where I can examine the monitors in person.

On a different note, can someone please clarify the meaning of the following statement:
From HERE
The Asus H87-Pro that I linked to in my previous post features a H87 chipset so what am I missing?

I have decided to go for an i5 4760(k) CPU. Most likely the K version.
CA_Steve. You mentioned that there's a "roadblock" associated with undervolting this CPU with your mobo.
Do you mind sharing a few more details about this "roadblock" - I'm curious to know if this is something I need to be aware of when selecting the motherboard and whether or not this has anything to do with your CPU being a K version rather than a non-K version.

Thanks.

Pretty basic - the voltage offset control was greyed out/inaccessable in the UEFI. Perhaps there's some hidden method to make them accessable...as MSI claims all their boards allow for it to some extent, but I didn't have the time to mess with it. Then I moved on to other projects. Someday, I'll try to get MSI tech response to give me a definative yes/no/how to unlock it for my particular board, or maybe it's waiting for a version update..<shrugs>

It's the one I linked to I think. It's dual DP but I was asking if they are both 1.2 not stating that they are.

Thank you Steve. Please keep us posted on your progress



Sorry, I didn't notice that the card in your link features two mini-displayport connectors.
I guess I'll have to write MSI to find out if the mini-DP connectors supports [email protected]@30bit color - I doubt it though.

I've been investigating Steve's suggestion to use a (or a pair of) GTX 750 (Ti) to drive my monitor(s).
So far I've only managed to find GTX 750 (Ti) cards from 3 brands featuring a displayport connector.

EVGA GeForce GTX 750 01G-P4-2751-KR 859dkr ~ $159
EVGA GeForce GTX 750 2GB 02G-P4-2752-KR Not available in DK
EVGA GeForce GTX 750 Superclocked 01G-P4-2753-KR 949dkr ~ $175
EVGA GeForce GTX 750 2GB Superclocked 02G-P4-2754-KR Not available in DK
EVGA GeForce GTX 750 Ti 02G-P4-3751-KR 1090dkr ~ $201
EVGA GeForce GTX 750 Ti Superclocked 02G-P4-3753-KR 1097dkr ~ $203
EVGA GeForce GTX 750 Ti w/ EVGA ACX Cooling 02G-P4-3755-KR Not available in DK
EVGA GeForce GTX 750 Ti FTW w/ EVGA ACX Cooling 02G-P4-3757-KR 1266dkr ~ $234

ZOTAC GeForce GTX 750 Ti OC ZT-70602-10M 1152dkr ~ $213

Galaxy GeForce GTX750 GC 2GB 75NPH8DV9JXX Not available in DK
Galaxy GeForce GTX750 GC 1GB 75NGH8DV9JXX Not available in DK
Galaxy GeForce GTX750 Ti GC 2GB 75IPH8DV9JXZ Not available in DK

PNY, Asus, MSI, Palit, Gigabyte, Gainward, Inno3D and Leadtek GTX 750 (Ti) cards all lack displayport.

I'm leaning towards the EVGA GTX 750 or the EVGA GTX 750 Ti after reading HERE that the overclocked cards have a substantially higher idle consumption (relatively speaking).
My card(s) will probably be idling for 99% of the time.
It seems that the fan might be a problem on the EVGA cards though (see link above) but if that's the case then I might remove the factory fan and install my own (Macgyver style using zip- or twist-ties or attached to the side of the case)

I'm waiting for a confirmation from EVGA stating if the cards in question supports 4k @ 60hz @ 30bit color.

Edit: Unfortunately I'm not able to vertically align the card names, part nr. and prices using the tabulator, sorry

Not neccessarily. If they beefed up the power mgmt on the card to support the higher speeds, then yeah, it may use more power at idle...as well as how they designed the VRM circuitry to begin with as it varies from model to model and mfgr to mfgr.

Steve,
Feel free to suggest one of the other GFX cards on the list - or any other card not on the list for that matter.
If the occasion calls for it then I'm willing to buy the card abroad.

I have decided to follow edh's excellent suggestion and go fully SSD.
However, PCI Express SSD's are becoming readily available and decently priced so I'm considering getting one of those - possibly a combination of one SATA and one PCI-X drive

Regarding PSU.
I was tempted to select the Seasonic G 360 (487dkr ~ 90$) after reading THIS article by Steve and THIS review by SPCR but I'm concerned that I'll reach the 150W mark where the fan really picks up speed.
For that reason I'm now leaning towards the Seasonic X-400 (910dkr ~ $168)

The decision to go fully SSD got me rethinking the case layout as I no longer need harddrive suspension.
See attachment for what I've come up with so far.
The PSU will have it's own compartment - the divider panel will be made from foamboard.
The 120mm fan is optional and might be installed if I decide to use a fanless PSU - I probably won't install it even with a fanless PSU.
In any case, I will need a hole in the bottom of the case in the PSU compartment to allow airflow so I might as well make it possible to fit a 120mm fan on top of the hole.
The SSD(s) will be mounted beneath (Edit: below) the motherboard or on the foamboard.
I'm well aware that 4 x 140mm fans is overkill - this should however make it possible to run the fans at the lowest possible RPM at all times and still have sufficient cooling.

I have measured the case and it is possible to mount everything as displayed on the drawing.

Questions/comments?

Edit2: Updated attached drawing to show location of SSD

Yeah, this gpu selection is a pain. I was pushing you toward the GTX 750 due to it's lovely low power consumption as compared to the Quaddro. Too bad about the lack of Displayport connectors. The lowest power path would be to drive the static display with the Intel chipset and the dynamic display with a gfx card. Did you have a chance to look into whether or not the Haswell chipset will drive the Dell at 60Hz? Back in Aug 2013, there were issues.

Buying outside of Denmark - probably ok, warranty-wise, as long as you stay within the Eurozone - check the mfgrs warranty policy. There's another recent thread where a member bought a product outside the Eurozone and the mfgr said he'd have to ship it back to the point of sale to get warranty work done.

SSD placement: no air behind the mobo, so it'll get noticeably warmer back there. Maybe not enough to matter, given your (relatively) low power build. <shrug>

PSU: The Corsair RM 450 might be another choice.

Not yet. I will try to get an e-mail confirmation from the mobo-manufacturer before making the purchase - I have yet to decide what mobo to buy though.


Simple solution. Spacers


Thanks. I'll give it a good look.

EVGA has yet to answer my e-mail concerning whether their Displayport GTX 750 (Ti) cards supports 4K @ 60Hz @ 30 bit color
PNY has answered me though and states that the Quadro K2000 does indeed support 4K @ 60Hz @ 30 bit color on both outputs simultaneously.

The Corsair RM450 is 664dkr (~$122) and the RM550 is 623dkr (~$114) in my country.
Corsair states that the fan is off when the load is below 40% (180W for RM450 and 220W for RM550) - in which case it should be off 99% of the time in my system.
However, from what I can read elsewhere, the fan is actually thermally controlled.
I'm afraid that mounting the PSU vertically, as shown previously, will make the fan kick in at a lower load.
Can someone clarify if mounting the RM450 or RM550 vertically poses a problem in terms of thermal performance / noise?

After deciding to go fully SSD I'm now leaning towards the Samsung 840 EVO MZ-7TE500 500GB.
I might consider adding a PCIe SSD like the Plextor M6e later on when the prices have decreased.

It seems that I'll be needing an UPS considering SSD's sensitivity to power failure.
Who can recommend a silent 230V/50Hz UPS that will be happy to live next to my PC on the aforementioned shelf below my desk?

I have enquired Asus whether or not the H87 Pro motherboard suffers from any of the diseases mentioned in the pugetsystems article referred to by Steve.
1. Intel driver issue causing choppy display in MST mode and Collage mode
2. NVIDIA cards fail to POST 50% of the time when using DisplayPort in MST mode
3. NVIDIA and Intel displays in MST mode cannot see the BIOS or POST screens

So far no reply from Asus R&D.

I'll be switching to a 2GB GFX card to drive my dynamic 4k monitor after reading in the pugetsystems article that 1GB is insufficient.
The 1gb shared video memory associated with the HD4600 integrated graphics should be sufficient to run my static 4k monitor.

I don't think your system power will cause the PSU to generate enough heat to turn on the fan. You are placing the fanned side on the outside of the case? Corsair seems pricey. Another direction might be the be quiet! Dark Power Pro 10. Fan's always on, but really really quiet. Or, Super Flower Golden King semi-passive.

I have an APC BE650. It's also listed as ES, depending on the channel sold. It's fanless, has a fair bit of capacity, a master outlet for the PC that will turn off slaved outlets when it goes into sleep mode (useful for my external audio amp) as well as surge protection for cable modem. Downside is a piercing beep when AC power fails and pseudo-sine battery power during this time can cause some PSU noise (PSU dependent)....but then, you are supposed to be doing a controlled power down during this time, anyway. There's also a USB control and s/w for unattended power down.

Steve,
Thanks for your continued contribution, I really appreciate it.

If I decide to go for a fanned PSU then the fanned side will be turned towards the front of the case. (See attachment)
I might add a fanduct on the front of the case that allows the PSU to breath cold air from beneath the PC shelf.

I'm willing to pay the price of the Corsair as long as the fan remains off or inaudible.
Hopefully the remainder of the system will be very quiet, 4 x 140mm fans barely spinning and possibly a fan on the CPU heatsink - probably a Mugen 4. I'm hoping that the GFX can run fanless.

This leaves little room for the PSU fan to manoeuvre before it becomes the noisiest part of the PC.

I've mentioned before that I prefer a PSU with a very slow spinning fan as opposed to solely relying on natural convection.
This remains true. On the other hand it's very difficult to get a sense of the PSU fans noise level if not for a SPCR review.

Super Flower is poorly represented in my country - same goes for Kingwin/Rosewell and BeQuiet. I'll see what I can dig up though.