Apple drops tiny, cheap Mac bomb

jiclark · Post by **jiclark** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:19 pm

I've never owned an Apple and I think that they are fantastic. You shouldn't think that we are anti-Apple just because we give some criticism!!!

I'm sorry to imply that everyone here is 'anti-Apple'; I was just taken aback by the tone of some of the comments. Plus, I always enjoy a lively debate!

Personally, I'm just thrilled that Apple has finally tried to do what so many have said they should do!!! Now it'll be very interesting to see if they can deliver in quantities to meet demand, and with a low number of lemons.

We shall see, eh?

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:20 pm

Pjotor wrote:Don't touch that reply button!

Sorry, too late..
Anyway, I managed to stay away from that stupid discussion!

I totally agree with you Pjotor, it's just like Amiga vs. Atari, synth vs. hårdrock och så vidare....

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:24 pm

Well I can say that if I was interested in buying a MacMini I wouldn't bother about the lame 2xUSB. Still, it's very embarrasing!!!

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:42 pm

Pjotor wrote:Don't touch that reply button!

Seriously -- so far most of the posts in this topic have steered clear of OS wars (which is great), but it's getting awfully close... Can we please try to keep it free of "Apple vs Microsoft" (vs Linux vs FreeBSD vs WhateverOS) posts? I'm sick and tired of reading posts in other forums where the word "Apple" has led to fruitless OS bashings.

May I present Pjotor the "Firefighter of the thread" award.

Thank you for your vigilant efforts. I would have hit a hot reply to jiclark were it not for your post. Right now, I'll just say this. I've flamed Macs before on this forum. I'VE got a strong desire to be an owner of a Mac mini. Unfortunately, there's a $25k car and a $6k TV with my name on it. And I want them more.

Seriously, if they had included a digital and analog TV tuner ports to it, I actually WOULD buy it as an HTPC (HTMac?).

jiclark · Post by **jiclark** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:01 pm

Sheesh!

Just keep slappin' each other on the butt...

;-}

ActionAttackJohn · Post by **ActionAttackJohn** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:13 pm

Mats wrote:
jiclark wrote:
Anyway, only 2 USB ports are embarrasing, you use one for keyboard/mouse, and then you got one left...
Every Mac keyboard has two ports on it as well. Plus, have you never used a hub?
Yeah but on the other hand there's no keyboard included!!

A hub???!? What's that??

Come on, even most laptops have three USB ports and they don't need one for the keyboard. Four ports would have been sweet, and it's not a question about money or space! It would have been better to have two more ports instead of a modem port! Show me any other brand new desktop computer with only two USB ports.

I've never owned an Apple and I think that they are fantastic. You shouldn't think that we are anti-Apple just because we give some criticism!!!

Space is certainly an issue in a tiny form factor like that. Personally i'm hating the single Firewire port. Great, now I have to dig out the USB2 cable for my iPod somewhere, because my hard drive needs that port.

I would've loved another firewire and usb2 port, instead of a modem. Seriously, Apple, it's 2005. Ditch the modem and give us more fun stuff.

I preordered, hopefully i'll have mine a week after they ship. I'm using my existing AirportExtreme card, which means I must tear my new baby apart to install it. I promise fun pictures of the guts.

My new computer is the size of my firewire hard drive

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:40 pm

ActionAttackJohn wrote:Space is certainly an issue in a tiny form factor like that.

Yeah but I'm talking about two USB ports. When looking at the pis I see that they could easily put two more in there, and I could live with having them in the front or the side.

Farnsworth · Post by **Farnsworth** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:41 pm

Only a Ati Radeon 9200 with 32mb of video-ram

I thought OSX eats away on vram since it's completely rendered in OpenGL.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:54 pm

I would like to see a Shuttle MacMini killer with a PM. Why? Because they can, and the PM is so much faster.

A PM Zen could have this size with a mini-ITX mobo (already exists) and laptop drives.

The 1.25 GHz G4 is what? 3 years old?

PM is like two years old, but have got improvements and new chipsets.
On the other side, this explains the price. With PM it would cost more... .. but then we got CM!

sdc · Post by **sdc** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:01 am

tay wrote:Does a soundblaster extigy work with OSX?

I still really like it though

Tay,

If you speak French, I found that: http://macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.ph ... 12-21#4187
It worked with 10.2, so it probably does with 10.3 as well.

/sdc

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:55 am

Nice, but still quite expensive for what you get.
I don't buy into the fact that style must always be expensive - Apple are starting to learn that with the iPod. It's a full £30 (€42, $56, C$68) more expensive than several rival products, some of which arguably look better and have better battery life, and all of which play MP3s without conversion and aren't locked down to proprietry formats carrying the DRM virus. DRM is the one overriding reason I would never buy an iPod - I mean come on Apple, even Sony have dropped Atrac3 and started supporting MP3s natively now.

So yes, while I do think the mac mini looks beautiful, I just couldn't justify the cost considering all you get is the unit - it skyrockets as soon as you add a decent monitor, especially if you want an Apple one.
And before anyone jumps in and starts accusing me of being a Mac hater, I've used OSX extensively, and two of my housemates at uni last year were doing art and had iMacs so I was using it then, and I do think it's a very nice OS. It's a shame the price of the hardware is so prohibative.

These days you can pick up a PC in the UK, including an LCD monitor and a full suite of office and multimedia software, for £399 including VAT - and it will do everything the Mac does, and probably do it faster.
It might not do it better, but try explaining to average Joe how you can justify needing to spend more than three times that amount to do the same with the Mac Mini, by the time you factor in purchasing the software and additional peripherals. If Apple are ever going to be mass market they need to lower thier prices - if that means making budget versions of their equipment that doesn't look as fancy then so be it.

dago · Post by **dago** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:21 am

Mats wrote:I would like to see a Shuttle MacMini killer with a PM. Why? Because they can, and the PM is so much faster.

A PM Zen could have this size with a mini-ITX mobo (already exists) and laptop drives.

The 1.25 GHz G4 is what? 3 years old?
PM is like two years old, but have got improvements and new chipsets.
On the other side, this explains the price. With PM it would cost more... .. but then we got CM!

Aopen EY855 is what you want, but will be more expensive at then end.
The case+mainboard is 350€, pentium M 1.4 is 220€, add the RAM, HDD, optical drive. Of course, you may be faster at the end... but for what ?

BTW, I don't want to jump in the OS flamewar, but remember that another possibility for a server or HTPC is to use some opensource OS (linux, *BSD). Put the wireless card it, and that's a small headless server you can put almost anywhere.

Now, for real-live tests, I guess we'll have to wait until the first units are shipped. I'll try to get one "for work/test purposes" on company expenses

anthonysimilion · Post by **anthonysimilion** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:18 am

meglamaniac wrote:Nice, but still quite expensive for what you get.
I don't buy into the fact that style must always be expensive - Apple are starting to learn that with the iPod. It's a full £30 (€42, $56, C$68) more expensive than several rival products, some of which arguably look better and have better battery life, and all of which play MP3s without conversion and aren't locked down to proprietry formats carrying the DRM virus. DRM is the one overriding reason I would never buy an iPod - I mean come on Apple, even Sony have dropped Atrac3 and started supporting MP3s natively now.

The iPod does, and always has, supported MP3 playback, without conversion or DRM.

dago · Post by **dago** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:37 am

grandpa_boris wrote:
dago wrote:spec, from what I found, max power used should be below 25.6W. Not such a challenge to silently cool. It is also nice to note that this CPU has lot of powersaving features as well.
probably not a challenge to cool in a big enough case with a big enough heat sink and a big, slow fan moving air accross it. but there is no room in this little box for that.

My Pentium-M laptop is not that bigger, about same power output (24.5W intel TDP), and almost never goes over 50°C, fan turned off.

Tyrdium · Post by **Tyrdium** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:09 am

sthayashi wrote:Seriously, if they had included a digital and analog TV tuner ports to it, I actually WOULD buy it as an HTPC (HTMac?).

Errr... USB 2.0 or Firewire TV tuner?

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:41 am

I wonder how long we have to wait for a third party 3.5" HD enclosure that have the same design which you put your MacMini on. TV tuner, remote control & USB hub included of course.

Or, I buy two MacMini and make my own HD case... ..MacMini mobo anyone?

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:06 am

Tyrdium wrote:Errr... USB 2.0 or Firewire TV tuner?

Do they exist in good quality for the Mac? If so, then where are they?
Also, I missed any mention of a DVI-to-VGA converter. Is it safe to assume such a device exists for Macs?

luggage · Post by **luggage** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:07 am

Woo nice little "puck"
And $499.00 ? nice!

[click]BUY NOW[/click]
hmm I want the faster one of course

$599.00

well ok.. [click]select[/click]

256MB DDR333 ? That's got to go...
hmm no DDR400+ ?!?
1GB DDR333 add $425 !!!!?!?
ok 512 MB DDR333?
Ah only $75 extra...

Hmm only one drive-bay... need to be ably to burn dvd-r so
"Superdrive" (wohoo.. gotta love the names)
$100 extra? ... uhm ok (specced at x4...)

Wireless - hmm dont need that but otherwise it's $50-$129...

Keyboard and mouse... gotta have it since I dont have any old mac to steal it from.
$58 extra - yea well thats pretty standard isn't it? (wireless at $99)

MacOSX - free!!! yay :mouth02:

Applecare - wtf? *reads description*
" The AppleCare Protection Plan extends your computer's 90 days of complimentary support and one-year warranty to up to three years of world-class support. "
I only get one year warranty without it?!?
ok then.
$149 extra!?!

[click]UPPDATE SUBTOTAL[/click]

"Subtotal Please note that your subtotal does not include sales tax or rebates. $981.00"

For ATI9200 32MB graphics, laptop 2.5" 80GB HD and 1.42GHz PowerPC G4 processor, 1 memslot with 512MB, 2 USB and 1 Firewire and no upgradeability...

But sure it does look cool and the basic $499 for my mum to pay her bills on... except the cheapest display from apple is the $999.00 20" Apple Cinema Display

souljas · Post by **souljas** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:16 am

meglamaniac wrote: These days you can pick up a PC in the UK, including an LCD monitor and a full suite of office and multimedia software, for £399 including VAT - and it will do everything the Mac does, and probably do it faster.
It might not do it better, but try explaining to average Joe how you can justify needing to spend more than three times that amount to do the same with the Mac Mini, by the time you factor in purchasing the software and additional peripherals. If Apple are ever going to be mass market they need to lower thier prices - if that means making budget versions of their equipment that doesn't look as fancy then so be it.

The mini-mac was designed for switchers who already have a PC and want a change, they can then just plug in all their existing accesories like monitor, keyboard and mouse.

meglamaniac wrote:These days you can pick up a PC in the UK, including an LCD monitor and a full suite of office and multimedia software, for £399 including VAT - and it will do everything the Mac does, and probably do it faster

The all in one alternative is the Imac G5, it looks much nicer than PC's, and maybe double the price but im sure alot faster.

meglamaniac wrote:but try explaining to average Joe how you can justify needing to spend more than three times that amount to do the same with the Mac Mini

PC = 399
Mac = (340 + 150 for a 15" LCD)=490 (not really 3x more)

jimmyfergus · Post by **jimmyfergus** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:29 am

Mats wrote:You shouldn't think that we are anti-Apple just because we give some criticism!!!

But didn't you know, criticising features of an Apple product means you're anti-Apple, just as criticising the policies of the US government means you're Anti-American (tm). If you like something at all, you must never mention any of its faults - those are the rules! At least, those are the rules in the USA.

Ok, sorry, veering seriously off-topic, and yes, trolling a bit.

Some sort of mid-week caffeine effect.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:31 am

Heh, that would be funny.. if the US gvt trademarked American (tm)

Tyrdium · Post by **Tyrdium** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:47 am

sthayashi wrote:Do they exist in good quality for the Mac? If so, then where are they?

Yep! Take a look in the ads section of a MacWorld magazine; there tend to be a bunch in there.

sthayashi wrote:Also, I missed any mention of a DVI-to-VGA converter. Is it safe to assume such a device exists for Macs?

Yeah, it comes with one.

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:01 am

I was wondering whereabouts the MiniMac's CPUs sit when comparing them to Intel and AMD - a rough estimate at least. (If I were to take a wild guess, I'd say it's somewhere between 2.0 GHz and 2.8 GHz P4?) Maybe someone who uses both Macs and PCs would have an idea, subjectively, how they compare. I know this doesn't matter for the system's target audience, as I don't doubt it will be plenty fast for them, but then nobody here is really part of the target audience.

sdc · Post by **sdc** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:01 am

sthayashi wrote:
Tyrdium wrote:Errr... USB 2.0 or Firewire TV tuner?
Do they exist in good quality for the Mac?

A company called ElGato sells that, I believe.

Also, I missed any mention of a DVI-to-VGA converter. Is it safe to assume such a device exists for Macs?

It's sold with the machine.
Correction: included in the box, I mean, you don't have to pay extra for it.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:27 am

Interesting....

EFF reviewed the El Gato. It appears that the Macmini may not be able to handle HD playback very well.

It just occurred to me that the Macmini also may not be able to playback my music collection, which is mostly mp3s, but with a growing number of MPCs.

Damn. I still want to get it to play with it though.

Tyrdium · Post by **Tyrdium** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:05 am

For HDTV, sure, it won't work. It works fine for SDTV/EDTV, though. Also, Macs can apparently be set up to use Firewire-equipped HDTV tuners, and record from those (see here). Oh, and what's an MPC?

bchung2 · Post by **bchung2** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:40 am

I was given an iBook g4 last year. I have used PCs all my life and my last Box was a quiet XP1800 in a 1/4" Chilli Pro case.

Apple has its uses, as does laptops. I'm sure the MacMini will find its audience.

The iBook g4 has a video, 2 usb, 1 firewire, 1 RJ45 and 1 modem ports. I heavily need to communicate and use linux/unix machines remotely. (I'm a researcher at a major US university. I perform experiments that require software packages to be run on Beowolf class clusters)

Using my Windows desktop to do all my data analysis and stuff (rips mp3s off my CDs, watch DVDs, surf net, etc) was a pain, because I would have to boot into a Linux partition to work. More of the multimedia was difficult, as was printing or anyting else driver related, in Linux so I'd do most of my paper research and DVD backing up in Windows. Of course I'd play the odd game or two and that can't be done in linux.

The iBook was great because it is portable and silent. There is fan on my iBook and I have had it go on 3 times for a couple minutes only. (And that was when the heating was malfunctioning and I was swimming in my clothes within minutes of entering my apartment. Thats not to say the iBook runs cool. At the end of a day, the iBook is uncomfortable to put in my lap.

My iBook has never failed to bring up a screen when I've plugged it into a projector to give a talk. I have never had a stability problem and I work on my iBook all day. I have never been inconvenienced by a virus or kernal panic/blue screen.

The one con I did find was that Os X likes RAM. Lots of it. So I went to outpost.com and got 1gb stick for 180USD and it runs smooth as butter. I can burn a DVD, playback ripped DVD, analyze data and have half a dozen huge programs open (Igor Pro, Excel, Word, Win2k on Virtual PC, z dozen PDFs, Mathematica, Safari) and have NO decrease in system response time/performance. Thank the devs at Apple for Expose.

Anyway the point is, Mac are made well. A guy I know still has a powerbook from the early 90s. They just never quit. I would expect the MiniMac of the same build quality.

People have mentioned the lack of USB ports. Well due to the nature of my work, I use very few USB devices. People have mentioned hubs can be used and I should also point out that Mac external device ports can run at higher amperages than PC ports.

The USB bus was not designed for power delivery. I have a 2.5" enclosure with 30 gb drive (which I took from my iBook and replaced with an 80giger). It has no external power, but has 2 USB plugs. I plugged the USB plugs into my PC and it kept rebooted for as long as I had the drive plugged into it. The same enclosure and drive works peachy with just 1 plug on my iBook.

The lack of firewire is a moot point, as FW can be dasiy chained. The FW bus was designed with power delivery in mind.

As for external bus performance, I was pretty suprised when I got 10Megs/s across the network writing to a firewire HD. The best I got with winSCP (same protocol) on my PC was 2.4-3Megs/s. Watching/writing movies will not be a problem with firewire. USB on the other hand is limited not so much by hardware but by architecture design.

Hope that was helpful for someone.

PS.
All macs come with OS preloaded and disks to reload the OS. MiniMac (like the iBook) has iLife installed/on disk. I personally only ever use iCal and iTunes. My iBook also came with the power brick and accessories, VGA dongle and a modem line.

HWgeek · Post by **HWgeek** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:43 am

A few people were wondering about compatibility with PC parts etc.

Since the B/W G3 Apple has been standardizing. VGA port
(then that stupid ADC port ... sigh do they NEVER learn?) Then to a standard DVI port.

The macmini supports VGA/DVI and TV video out. The VGA/DVI is standard. Your pc monitor will work (CRT or LCD) Same with a USB keyboard and mouse or a wireless keyboard or mouse.

2 USB ports - Makes sense - one port for the kybd/mse (assuming the keybd passes through the mouse, ie builtin hub) one open port for your usb printer.

Firewire so that you can support iPods (1G - 4G) and external drives etc.

For both the Firewire and USB, just put in some powered hubs if you need THAT many extra ports. The goal of this machine is NOT to replace the current desktop iMac/eMac etc... Its to replace Joe Average's cheap PC that he bought 4 years ago and is outdated etc. Joe Average (my neighbor) would have bought this had it been available around T-Giving (black friday sales etc) He just needs a machine to surf, backup his DVD's, have the kids do their homework , play some games. He ended up with some cheapo e-machine units... Thats the market this machine is targeted for primarily.
For Home Entertainment, this could be a viable contender - either the ElGato or Formac units can be coupled to it for DVR-TV capability. Since it has TV-out ability, you don't even have to run it on a monitor.

The $425 seems VERY high for 1G of ram, you should be able to get 1G of ram for $200 (SO-DIMM) if they didn't use a desktop DIMM (space maybe?)

HD - 2.5" drive. Seems confirmed via other sites also. Makes sense based on PCB / optical drive and case size. One place they could squeeze down on size and not take too much of a profit margin hit.

A good config would be base CPU and memory, and bluetooth. Get the apple extreme card seperately (off ebay for $50-$70) go and buy memory to upgrade and sell off the 256MB memory. Get a P-ATA drive 3.5" 250GB and put it in a firewire case for your storage needs.. or run a remote server. (I run a remote server with 1.2TB of space...works great for storage ie music, DVDs etc)

I plan on getting one, and using it for DVR-TV / DVD / multimedia center, it will replace my old G3 desktop that has a DVD card in it , and ATI USB TV tuner etc etc... Size wise, and base configuration it definitely looks like a solid unit. With the fan, much less concerned about heat related problems than with a G4 cube (which I was getting ready to buy one)

The trade-offs are practical - space, port placement and mfg cost. Extra ports weren't going to be slapped on just anywhere, not the way apple designs its equipment. The modem makes sense, not everyone has some sort of high speed access (I only got access about a year ago...) or may not be willing to pay for it, or don't need it.

Cost - Before people start saying Mac's are 2x - 3x more expensive, do the research... its patently NOT true anymore. Several articles have compared PC to MAC (G5 machines to Dell as one that I read) some cases, the mac was ~$100 more expensive , some cases the PC was more expensive. $100 - $200 is about 10% difference. Thats very good since overall mac's are sturdier built than most PC's. Remember, comparing an Apple to a no-name brand home built PC is not equal.. Its similar to comparing a Dell or Compaq etc to a no-name brand, its not the same even if they run the same OS.

Anyways...

Tyrdium · Post by **Tyrdium** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:30 am

The Mac mini uses standard desktop PC2700 DDR-SDRAM.

Farnsworth · Post by **Farnsworth** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:12 am

Your warranty is void, if you open the case.
Are Mac cases sealed in such a way that mac-technicians can detect you opened the case?

Apple drops tiny, cheap Mac bomb

Kind of long, sorry.