Question about UPS powersupply/conditioning units...

Keyz316 · Post by **Keyz316** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:10 pm

Hey all

I live in California, and as you may know we've been having some problems with the electric companies these days.... I've personally lost count of how many brown/blackouts I've experienced lately. Another issue is that the quality of wiring in my house does not seem to be up to par and I'm experiencing some line-noise problems (especially noticeable as a buzzing noise in my expensive studio speakers hehe).

So I'm interested in getting one of those UPS (uninterruptible power supply) units, preferably with some added line conditioning capabilities built in. Trouble is I really don't know which to get or how powerful of one I need. And the part that I'm most hoping you guys can help with is suggesting one that also is QUIET hehe.... well it can make noise while the battery is going... but the rest of the time I'm hoping for something 100% silent. I have an ooold UPS that a friend gave me, but it's quite weak it seems (says 120VAC on the back), and it always emits a slight high-pitched wine when switched on (when on battery power a noisy fan and loud motor sound kicks in as well hehe).

Anyhow... here's what I need to power (for at least 5 min or so, more would be nice but not really necessary):
Computer... with 300W Nexus 3000 PSU, two 7200rpm harddrives (40gb maxtor d740x / 120gb wd with 8mb cache), AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (not overclocked), Zalman CPNS6000-cu CPU cooler, 2-4 quiet casefans, Echo Mia pro-audio soundcard, Matrox Millennium G400 dual (upgrading to Radeon 9000), Network card, IDE CDRW/DVD combo drive, 2 usb mice, 2 keyboards, 1 usb smartmedia reader.

Monitor... Viewsonic PF795 19" Flat-CRT... on the back it says:
AC 100 - 240V~
50/60Hz 2.0A

Keyboard/Synthesizer... Yamaha Motif 8... on the back it says 120V / 28W / 60Hz~

Anyhow hoping you guys can help... recap -- need a UPS that silently provides enough juice for 5+ minutes for the above equipment and provides line conditioning to improve the quality of the power entering the equipment during general use.

Thanks!

TheMuffinMan · Post by **TheMuffinMan** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:30 pm

If you want a battery w/line conditioning

If you want features + great line conditioning

If you want features, great line conditioning and room to grow (expensive, though

If you want the cheapest battery backup for the load you specified

Just a few notes:
All battery backups have an alarm if the power goes out.
You should only plug the computer and the monitor into the battery plugs. Anything else is too much.

TerryW · Post by **TerryW** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:46 pm

Hi all,

MuffinMan - Great article & great links. The APC products should do quite well for Keyz316!

The APC products are widely recognized for UPS & power conditioning. Most of the server systems techies I know have several APC products in their stables. Some units are several thousand watts.

I have one as well, a small 300-watter, with enough juice to keep my system (PC & monitor only) up for 5 to 10 minutes, enough for a safe shutdown. I also use a powerline conditioner called TYCOR, which has a guarantee of up to $3000.00 in the event their product failed to protect a system.

One small downside on UPS's: if batteries run down to less than 50%, they can take a while to return to 90-100% full charge. If the power went off again during the charge cycle, the UPS may not have enough battery to support another cycle.

Good luck.

TerryW

Keyz316 · Post by **Keyz316** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:00 am

Thanks guys

I definately need to have power for the 3 main things I mentioned... the keyboard/synthesizer is important since when I am writing a song on it the data is stored in non-permanent RAM, and a power-outtage would mean losing it completely. I forgot to mention also I'd need conditioned plugs (not on battery, but line conditioned) available for 3 other things as well -- 2 of them for my studio speakers (they take 1 plug each) - Yorkville YSM1p, and one for my mixing board - Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO ... they don't need to be functional in a power outtage, but do need line conditioning. I mainly just want to be able to save and shutdown my computer and/or synth in the event of power failure.

Supposing I don't want much growth/headroom, how high of a "VA" number do I need for all those things? (i.e. 420VA, etc). Is the VA the same as the numbers with a V on my gear? Do I add those numbers on my equipment such as the 240V+120V+whatever for the computer (I don't know how to convert the 300W hehe). Speaking of which - does the 300W PSU "draw" those 300W out of the UPS all the time, or only when needed (hopefully never hehe)?

Anyhow thanks again!

P.S. I found some good deals on www.refurbups.com ... though I'm guessing those don't come with warranty hehe

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 5:23 am

This is the one I've been using to get me through all the SoCal power crap we've been dealing with for the past 2 years. It's worked great and has never let me down. You can't tell from that picture but it's actually got seven outlets to plug stuff into, four that are battery backup/surge protected and three that are just surge protected. They also have a slightly beefer version called the LS-700 that would probably work better but I've never actually seen one in a retail store. The LS-500s are pretty easy to find though.

TerryW · Post by **TerryW** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:30 am

To Keyz,

I don't specifically know much about the studio speakers, the mixing board or synthesizer. However, I do know about UPS & powerline conditioners.

Generally speaking, the "VA" (Volt-Amperes) ratings is interchangeable with Wattage (though the VA may be a higher rating than the Watts). I would suggest adding up all the Max Wattages or VA for each product and add maybe another 20% (fudge factor).

Once you get the rough number, find a UPS and/or powerline conditioner with at least that number or higher. Be cautious - the $$$$ can really start jumping over 1000-watts.

As for the 300 Watt rating on the PSU, this is the Maximum capability of that supply. Generally, the components within the computer will not draw that much from the PSU.

However, I would suggest you have a UPS sized for the worst-case scenario, plus 20%. I.E. PSU = 300 Watts, monitor = 200-Watts, synthesizer = 100-Watts, plus 20% means the UPS needs to be a minimum of 750-Watts.

FYI - Can you modify the power supply module for the synthesizer and run it from batteries instead?? Then have a trickle-charger topping up the batteries.

I hope this material helps and doesn't muddy up the waters.

Good luck in your endeavours.

TerryW

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:58 am

have a UPS sized for the worst-case scenario, plus 20%. I.E. PSU = 300 Watts, monitor = 200-Watts, synthesizer = 100-Watts, plus 20% means the UPS needs to be a minimum of 750-Watts.

Or get two smaller ones. I use two of these 525A/300W jobbies by CyberPowerfor 2 mid-PCs, 2 19" monitors, cable modem, router, a few wall warts. Really cheap, around US$50. The line goes all the way to 1500VAC for ~$200? I got these because that's what I found when I was looking in a rush -- right after data loss with a power outage. I think they're sold rebadged as well.

3 UPS outlets and 3 line filtered outlets on each -- the large # makes it really convenient, I can move them around, not rely on a single AC outlet. Worked fine for over 2 years -- though I've really only had one or two outages. In Vancouver city, the AC supply is really stable & pretty clean.

TerryW · Post by **TerryW** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 8:29 pm

Oops!

Why didn't I think of that?

Cheerio

TerryW

Keyz316 · Post by **Keyz316** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:15 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:This is the one I've been using to get me through all the SoCal power crap we've been dealing with for the past 2 years ...... the LS-700 that would probably work better...

I noticed on that model and similar there's a major difference in the "filtering" value... "5% IEEE surge let-through" compared to the "0.3% IEEE surge let-through" of models like the APC Smart-UPS 620VA mentioned above. Is the "filtering" the line-conditioning feature? If so, how dramatic of an effect do those different models have? (i.e. is the conditioning on the cheaper LS series "good enough" or is it useless by comparison?).

TerryW wrote: Generally speaking, the "VA" (Volt-Amperes) ratings is interchangeable with Wattage (though the VA may be a higher rating than the Watts). I would suggest adding up all the Max Wattages or VA for each product and add maybe another 20% (fudge factor).

..I would suggest you have a UPS sized for the worst-case scenario, plus 20%. I.E. PSU = 300 Watts, monitor = 200-Watts, synthesizer = 100-Watts, plus 20% means the UPS needs to be a minimum of 750-Watts.

FYI - Can you modify the power supply module for the synthesizer and run it from batteries instead?? Then have a trickle-charger topping up the batteries.

I'm still having a bit of trouble calculating this properly. Is there an equation to convert it or something? Some of my gear says VAC, some V, some W... here's my "attempt" at adding it up (I included any units specified on each device)... hoping you can help me calculate it accurately...

On surge/conditioning
--------------------------
120VAC - Studio Monitor L
120VAC - Studio Monitor R
120VAC - 25W - Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO mixer
= 360VAC (dont know how many watts?)

On battery/surge/conditioning
------------------------------------
120V - 28 W - Yamaha Motif 8
240V - Viewsonic 19" monitor (also says "AC 100" - what's that?)
300W - Nexus PSU (computer)
= ?W ?VAC

... In regard to your suggestion to modify the power supply module for the synthesizer... can't do that -- it's a very large/expensive keyboard (in the ballpark of $3000) and if I understand you correctly that would void my warranty on it

One other thing I noticed was that on some of the APC spec pages it lists their "Audible noise at 1 meter" as 45dB..... is it really that loud? What about those CyberPower ones you mentioned MikeC? - can you hear them? I'm hoping that 45dB is only during an outtage hehe ... speaking of the CyberPower ones.... that sounds like a plausible solution - though I couldn't find any details on their power conditioning... do you happen to have any info on that?

Thanks all for your help on this.... I was totally not expecting to run into this kind of troublesome issue right now - but the buzzing in my monitors and power outtages have become too much hehe

Peace.

BaconTastesGood · Post by **BaconTastesGood** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:27 pm

Keyz,

Nothing to offer here, just wanted to mention that you and I have almost identical setups, almost eerily so!

3U rack moutn case
AMD Athlon XP1800 w/ SLK-800 + Panaflo
HP DVD/CD-ROM combo drive
Seagate HDD
Echo Mia
Matrox G450 dual head w/ 17" Envision EN7100e LCD panel

I use a Triton Pro, Mackie LM3201, and Mackie HR824 monitors though.

Keyz316 · Post by **Keyz316** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:42 pm

hehe cool

.... /keyz drools with envy over those Mackie HR824's.....

I would have got them if I could... but $500/pair was as much as I could afford for studio monitors at this point (for those who don't know, those HR824's are about $600 each hehe)... I have to stop hoarding gear and save some for another year of college lol. I may be monitor-less for a while though since these new Yorkvilles may already have a problem heh.

Out of curiosity since you also have a Mia... what OS do you use, and what is your Programs->Accessories->Entertainment->Volume Control-> "Wave Volume" slider set to? Some program messed mine up from default and I'm not sure where it's supposed to go.. Mia freezes/controls the Line Out volume, but not Wave for me. I called Echo support and they were extremely rude and didn't help at all.

Anyhow.... peace

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:47 pm

What about those CyberPower ones you mentioned MikeC? - can you hear them? I'm hoping that 45dB is only during an outtage hehe ... speaking of the CyberPower ones.... that sounds like a plausible solution - though I couldn't find any details on their power conditioning... do you happen to have any info on that?

They don't make any noise. No moving parts. Basically a big battery. Can't recall what kind of noise they make when triggered -- some kind of beeping I think. I recall during lightning storms when lights flickered ever so briefly, the UPS would trigger -- also ever so briefly -- suggesting they work fast enough. No idea what kind of power conditioning they have.

powergyoza · Post by **powergyoza** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:56 pm

Keyz316 wrote:I'm still having a bit of trouble calculating this properly. Is there an equation to convert it or something? Some of my gear says VAC, some V, some W... here's my "attempt" at adding it up (I included any units specified on each device)... hoping you can help me calculate it accurately...

On surge/conditioning
--------------------------
120VAC - Studio Monitor L
120VAC - Studio Monitor R
120VAC - 25W - Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO mixer
= 360VAC (dont know how many watts?)

On battery/surge/conditioning
------------------------------------
120V - 28 W - Yamaha Motif 8
240V - Viewsonic 19" monitor (also says "AC 100" - what's that?)
300W - Nexus PSU (computer)
= ?W ?VAC

... In regard to your suggestion to modify the power supply module for the synthesizer... can't do that -- it's a very large/expensive keyboard (in the ballpark of $3000) and if I understand you correctly that would void my warranty on it

One other thing I noticed was that on some of the APC spec pages it lists their "Audible noise at 1 meter" as 45dB..... is it really that loud? What about those CyberPower ones you mentioned MikeC? - can you hear them? I'm hoping that 45dB is only during an outtage hehe ... speaking of the CyberPower ones.... that sounds like a plausible solution - though I couldn't find any details on their power conditioning... do you happen to have any info on that?

If you haven't tried this already, the APC UPS selector may of some help to you. If it were me, I'd go for BackUPS Pro, LS or SmartUPS - depending on budget. They seem to have more efficient inverters (the UPS component that converts the battery power to AC) than the cheaper models - thus longer run times for the same VA rating. Off the top of my head, I think you can probably power your computer, monitor + keyboard with one of the better 500 VA models, but check the selector to be sure.

As for the noise rating, the more advanced models (like the BUPro, LS and SUPS) do make noise whenever they're powered on. I know this b/c I used to own a BUPro280. If I recall, the noise was minor, and could be an issue for you, but since you can reposition it more easily than a computer or monitor, should be a non-issue. For sure, they're louder when the power is out (and when there's a brown out/minor spike).

Keyz316 · Post by **Keyz316** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:43 pm

Thanks... yeah I tried the selector, but it seems to give me pretty much the same models all the time no matter what I options I choose hehe... and it seems to leave out a ton of their products

Is the Smart-UPS line the only one with good line-conditioning? It's the only one that I found that says "Network-grade line conditioning: Full time EMI/RFI filters prevent line noise from causing data errors".....
Would it be possible to plug my gear into a dedicated power conditioning unit like the rackmount Furman PL-PLUS and plug that into one of the plugs on one of the less-expensive UPS units? Or does it have to distribute the load between all the available plugs on the UPS? I need to get a rackmount conditioning unit for gigging anyhow... so maybe that could be an option for me? (well if it's possible hehe).

/keyz digs himself ever so slightly deeper into debt... hehe

Thanks!

hyum · Post by **hyum** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 1:44 pm

basically: VA is AC power. watts is DC power, or AC power at unity power factor (PF=1). watts and VA is interchangable if your load is non-reactive (another way of saying PF=1).

PF of non-PFC ATX power supplies is typically around .6-.7. i think some generics can be as bad as .5 though. use the simple formula below to figure out watts to VA or vice versa.

watts = VA * PF

tm · Post by tm » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:38 pm

Keyz316 wrote: So I'm interested in getting one of those UPS (uninterruptible power supply) units, preferably with some added line conditioning capabilities built in. Trouble is I really don't know which to get or how powerful of one I need. And the part that I'm most hoping you guys can help with is suggesting one that also is QUIET hehe.... well it can make noise while the battery is going... but the rest of the time I'm hoping for something 100% silent. I have an ooold UPS that a friend gave me, but it's quite weak it seems (says 120VAC on the back), and it always emits a slight high-pitched wine when switched on (when on battery power a noisy fan and loud motor sound kicks in as well hehe).

Definitely look to get a new UPS. Batteries on UPSes degrade with time, and most modern UPSes have no fans at all (maybe the larger rackmount units might). The only noise they (should) make is the beeping to inform you to things like "we're on battery power", "battery low", "too much load", "eject! eject!". I find that "UPS as line conditioner" works pretty well.

Plus, I too would advocate multiple small UPSes. Easier to rearrange furniture that way

For example, I have three. One (500 VA) for my linux server which is on 24/7, but needs the auto-shutdown capability. One (300 VA) for my iLamp and assorted network switches, and a small one (< 300 VA) for the DSL router (yes, it's overkill, but the cordless phone plugs into it as well). The DSL router is plugged into one of the small APC units that are basically glorified power strips with a battery, which might be good enough for your synth. The objectives for me were to be able to ride out any brownouts, filter any crap coming down the wire, and automatically shutdown the linux box when it deems that the power isn't coming back on for a while. Of course, I need to configure the linux box for that last bit

Justin_R · Post by **Justin_R** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:56 pm

I could be wrong, but doesn't "VAC" mean "Volts AC" (as in what kind of power source to plug it in to) while "VA" means "Volt Amperes" (as in how much power it draws). So when keyz writes:

On surge/conditioning
--------------------------
120VAC - Studio Monitor L
120VAC - Studio Monitor R
120VAC - 25W - Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO mixer
= 360VAC (dont know how many watts?)

isn't the wrong kind of thing being summed?

hyum · Post by **hyum** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:31 pm

that is correct.

Keyz316 · Post by **Keyz316** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:30 am

Thanks guys... I'll keep trying to figure it out... maybe I'll call APC sales and have them add it up for me haha

Though can anyone comment on my idea about using something like a Furman PL-Plus for line conditioning, in addition to a few of the cheaper APC UPS's (since none of the more-affordable APC stuff seems to have adequate conditioning)? Would I be able to safely plug the UPS's into the PL-Plus and still have line conditioning benefits?

Thanks!

TerryW · Post by **TerryW** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:46 am

To Keyz,

From my understanding of electrical appliances in North America, each manufacturer is to provide their product model number, reference serial number, the operating voltage (VAC) and the wattage or VA ratings.

The math is simple: add up all the wattages together, add a 10 to 20% fudge factor. Pick a UPS & conditioner that has the closest (highest) capacity.

As for whether the conditioner is up fron then the UPS, I don't believe it matters. Most UPS's have some form of internal conditioning to protect their products from transient energies, etc. However, you might want to talk to the expects @ APC.

It is my opinion to place the UPS first and then the powerline conditioner. Most UPS's need a good electrical connection to the wall outlet.

My 2-bits worth.

TerryW

hvengel · Post by **hvengel** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:18 am

I have a system very much like yours. But I don't have your concerns about keeping the keyboard powered during an outage. I have an APC BackUPS 700 with the PC, monitor (19"), printer (Epson 1270) and film scanner on backup with everything else on the conditioned lines.

When I go into the software for the UPS it says that I should be able to run for about 15 minutes during an outage and shows an AC power draw of about 250 watts. The added 23 watts from your keyboard should only reduce this by a minute or two. This unit cost me about $80 + tax as Sams Club about a year ago. Sams Club now has 1000VA units available. I don't remember the exact price but I beleive that it was about $150 or so.

I also live in California and have seen several power outages/brown outs since installing the unit. So as far as I am concerned it has paid for itself several times allready. The UPS industry should send Gray Davis a large political contribution as he has given that industry a big boost.

It is silent when the AC power is OK. It beeps when there is a power problem and when the power is restored to normal. There is also a buzz when the power is out and the unit is on battery. The buzz is louder than I would like and might be on the order of 45db. The beeps are louder than the buzz but very short.

hyum · Post by **hyum** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:02 am

you can always go out and buy a kill-a-watt for $40 bucks. it's a great toy to have anyway. it'll tell you your wattage, AND PF so you can figure out your VA.

Question about UPS powersupply/conditioning units...

Question about UPS powersupply/conditioning units...

Re: Question about UPS powersupply/conditioning units...