Carbon-Fibre Computer Case

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nici
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Post by nici » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:07 am

Nice to have you back Mr. Jefe :lol:

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Post by spookmineer » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:59 pm

Density is one of the factors that matter.
Another one is stiffness. Completely stiff material (not realistic) will not resonate from the particles (sound) which will try to set it in motion. If a material doesn't move, it will not produce sound to the outward environment.

These properties both contribute to the same goal. Density will prevent a wall (or anything else) to move from the sound induced to it, by sheer mass.
Stiffness will also prevent this.
Lead isn't stiff, but has density. Carbon fibre doesn't have mass, but it's stiff.
Maybe a carbon fibre case padded with MLV will do the trick.

Aluminium is crappy because it is light weight and it has no stiffness.

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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:19 pm

know what also is stiff?

I'll give you one hint. and it's all because of nici

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Post by spookmineer » Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:13 pm

It might be too small to pad the inside of my case with it.

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Post by mr. poopyhead » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:06 pm

Filias Cupio wrote:They make a case out of expensive, light weight material - so their target market should be weight-conscious consumers, right? Then they produce a very large tower, with space for 12(!) disk drives.

The logic escapes me.

(Well, not entirely - their market is people with more dollars than sense. A good market, if you can tap into it.)
it's the same concept as a "fuel efficient" SUV...
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Post by andyb » Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:21 am

Mr Popyhead you are quite right.

The "concept" is the part that is interesting, and not the implementation.

The sheer fact that someone has actually mass produced a Carbon Fibre case is good news for the industry, as other companies will follow, and there will be more CF cases. Some of these cases will be aimed squarely at us silence fanatics, and will no doubt be quite excelent.

The fact that the first mass produced CF case is made by Ultra and is huge is not my point. The only reason why I even posted this news is that it is/was news. News is something we didnt know, and it is interesting, just as if someone started mass-producing a lead case, that would be NEWS.

However lead is expensive, very heavy - thus impractical, and is a little dangerous. Just shipping a lead case would quadrouple the cost of the item.

Lead cases will never exist regardless of how quiet they are, because they are totally impractical. If someone was to use lead they would probably sandwich a thin slither between 2 pieces of CF.

CF will one day be used in a composite case just like the P180 uses aluminium which is a bad product for silence enthusiasts. However mixing aluminium with plastic is great. Using CF with plastic, aluminium, lead, gold, steel, or even other CF will produce a great case, and I expect that Antec will be the first company to exploit this thew case material with sucess, as we know that Ultra's product is a "fuel efficient SUV" as mrpoopyhead pointed out.


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Post by jaganath » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:07 am

Carbon fibre is too expensive to be used in any reasonably mass-market case. This case occupies the same niche as the Mercedes SLR (another carbon fibre creation), for people with more money than sense. Those expecting some kind of carbon fibre revolution which will lead to lighter, better sound-insulated cases will likely be disappointed.

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Post by nici » Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:36 am

Carbon fibre isn't that expensive, it's working with it that is expensive. This case has flat panels with holes in them that are screwed to aluminium profile. They can just make huge, flat sheets of cheap CF and then cut it into size, im pretty sure the composite panels on the P180 are much more expensive to manufacture than these. Since a computer case isn't exactly a critical product to the survival of the human race, they can make it out of the cheapest carbon fibre available and still have the finish of it look ncie enough.

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Post by mr. poopyhead » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:20 pm

nici wrote:Carbon fibre isn't that expensive, it's working with it that is expensive. This case has flat panels with holes in them that are screwed to aluminium profile. They can just make huge, flat sheets of cheap CF and then cut it into size, im pretty sure the composite panels on the P180 are much more expensive to manufacture than these. Since a computer case isn't exactly a critical product to the survival of the human race, they can make it out of the cheapest carbon fibre available and still have the finish of it look ncie enough.
i've read that most of the low cost carbon fibre out there is probably made in china or some other asian country since the process for making carbon fibre creates some really foul by-products. and we all know in that in china you can just dump these wastes into the yangtze river until it stops freezing in the winter.

i'm willing to bet my lunch that the carbon fibre used in these cases is made in taiwan and polluted like hell, just like everything else in the computer industry.... RoHS? in asia? hahaha... fat chance.

a guilt-free, made in U-S-and-A carbon case will surely be expensive...
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nici
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Post by nici » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:46 pm

Im pretty sure it wont be mabe in the states.. Stuff that used to say "Made in U.S.A.!" now say "designed in U.S.A.!" with a huge flag right beside it. Or just a huge american flag with "made in indonesia" under it.

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Post by Devonavar » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:54 pm

Since RoHS is largely related to reducing the use of lead, I don't see that it would prevent Carbon Fibre cases from being produced even if China did adopt it. It might prevent that lead case from being developed though...

Besides, even if China doesn't adopt RoHS, any products they manufacture for the European market do have to adhere to RoHS. And, since it's very expensive to maintain two production lines side by side, that effectively means that the whole world ends up getting RoHS products. The only products that don't are made by smaller companies that cater only to the Chinese market. The biggest polluters have to comply if they want to remain big.

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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:22 am

I was talking about lead usage in consumer products to my father a chemist of about 35 years.

he said that even if sandwiched, it would pose a serious health risk. he said it is difficult to get pure lead to not leech out somehow to the user.

I think that if it was like dipped in plastic, then like coated in rubber, sandwiched between carbon fibre, yes, this is rediculous, but would make a sick case.

probably weigh like 50 lbs easily too :)

just dropping it or bending it could leak tiny amounts of lead is the only problem. rohs doesnt like lead but i think it would freak knowing it wasnt contained within amalgums (spelling?) or within circuits.

im all for it though :twisted:

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Post by jaganath » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:02 am

Lead is a great sound insulator but toxic. A more practical example would be a double-walled case with the cavity filled with rockwool or mineral wool, which they use for sound and thermal insulation in houses.

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Post by sareiodata » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:21 am

jaganath wrote:Lead is a great sound insulator but toxic.
You could always use gold instead of lead...same weight...not toxic...great for heat transfer ... a little on the expensive side, but what don't we do for a silent PC... :).

Probably a thick plate of steel (something like 2-3 mm) would have enough mass not to vibrate under the influence of a fan...even directly mounted. I've noticed the difference going from an old and ugly steel case which did not vibrate to a really thin aluminum case which used to vibrate like hell when I first installed my system...
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39383

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Post by andyb » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:15 pm

A gold case is not going to make it any cooler, feel free to search the forums for a scientific reason as to why it wont make a difference. People also think that aluminium cases are cooler, and black cases are hotter, its just not true.

Sorry to burst your bubble.


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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:21 pm

ah, disagree. it supposedly does work to approximately one degree in difference. there was a review of that 2 years ago.

not that it makes a difference actually as i realized max temps dont matter so long as sustained temps are stable and within reason. (zalman water system showed me that)

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Post by Devonavar » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:52 pm

I think that case conduction does not play a significant role in removing heat from a case ... until suddenly, it does.

What do I mean by this? Conduction comes into play when there is a significant thermal differential across different sections of a material. In a case with proper airflow, the internal temperature should rarely be more than 10°C higher than the external temperature, so conduction doesn't come much into play. However, if the forced air cooling isn't doing a good enough job, the internal temperature rises and the temperature difference increases, bringing conduction into play. However, by the time it does come into play, the internal temperature is probably too hot to be safe.

The verdict: Case conduction is not a significant source of cooling in an adequately cooled system. It is a significant source of cooling in an undercooled system. I conclude that, if case conduction is making a difference in your system, your system is inadequately cooled.

I came to this conclusion on the basis of examining several cases with poor airflow, notably the Silverstone LC-12 and Zalman's HD-135. Both of these were noticeably warm to the touch during testing, and both had heat problems. I should add that the Zalman HD-135 was no longer warm to the touch when we fixed the airflow problems by adding a fan.

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Post by sareiodata » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:37 pm

andyb wrote:A gold case is not going to make it any cooler

Andy
It was more of a joke ... There will never be a commercial real gold case, and probably no one will build such a case for it's thermal properties and instead it will have a decorative roll :) .
Some ventilation holes will probably have a bigger effect on the inside of the case temperature without letting to much noise out. (Presumably if there is really bad air flow inside the case. In the case of good air flow some holes could disrupt it, even could result in hot air pockets.)

Also about air pockets! Are there wind tunnel tests done with cases? They could be done if you are using 1:1 scale Plexiglas case so you could see the air flow!!! That would really be nice and the results could help us improve air circulation, reduce turbulences and build really silent system.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39383

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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:31 pm

I want to see someone build a silent system with a dual core chip, 2 gigs ram, and a r600 ati card (the new one comming out soon)

supposedly that card has a 240 watt draw on it ! :shock:

I dont even know if my zalman blue tower could compensate for that.

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Post by Maviryk » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:10 am

CF case eh...

Question: How hard is it to cut holes into CF to mod the case?

I'll pass.

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Post by spookmineer » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:03 pm

Maviryk wrote:CF case eh...

Question: How hard is it to cut holes into CF to mod the case?

I'll pass.
It's very easy to work with.

Behaves like wood, be careful of splintering

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Post by andyb » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:36 am

One of the more interesting things about Carbon Fibre is that you can make it in almost any shape conceivable, which is not so easy with Steel or Aluminium. This would be of interest to some people, especially the modding crowd, it is also possible to DIY a CF case from scratch, as one of the SPCR forum members has already done, and has sat outside on his balcony :lol:


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Post by Aris » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:27 am

im not impressed.

theres alot of things that go into making a great case, materials used is only one aspect of it.

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Post by One » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:13 pm

If you want shielding you could cover the case with carbon fiber paper like this guy: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthrea ... 316&page=9

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Post by jaganath » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:41 pm

Sorry, but that guy is nuts. I also severely doubt the paper does anything, in the way that he has applied it.

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Post by One » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:46 pm

jaganath wrote:Sorry, but that guy is nuts. I also severely doubt the paper does anything, in the way that he has applied it.
Nuts how? I have listened to his system (we live in the same vessel) before and after he put the paper on, it sounded better with the paper.
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Post by MikeC » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:38 am

Just a quick note from an environmental perspective:

The production of carbon fiber is very energy intensive. Not exactly a "green" material, thought it's not toxic like PVC -- at least as far as we know now.

Steel remains the least energy intensive common building material -- 59 MJ (megajoule) is required to make 1kg of steel.

Compare this to aluminum: 214 MJ/kg. Good thing AU is 1/3 the density. (Still requires more energy to make a typical case from aluminum than steel.)

Most plastics are 84 MJ/kg.

Not sure exactly where carbon fiber falls here; way higher than plastics, tho.
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Post by Reachable » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:18 pm

MikeC wrote:Just a quick note from an environmental perspective:

The production of carbon fiber is very energy intensive. Not exactly a "green" material, thought it's not toxic like PVC -- at least as far as we know now.

Steel remains the least energy intensive common building material -- 59 MJ (megajoule) is required to make 1kg of steel.

Do these megajoule figures include the entire process from mine to ingot or just what goes on in the steel mill?

Lots of energy required to make these materials, n'est-ce pas?

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Post by jaganath » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:31 pm

Lots of energy required to make these materials, n'est-ce pas?
Is it really though? 60MJ is about as much as is in 2 litres of gasoline.

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Post by Reachable » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:58 am

jaganath wrote:
Lots of energy required to make these materials, n'est-ce pas?
Is it really though? 60MJ is about as much as is in 2 litres of gasoline.

Hmmm. If you look at it that way, the energy required to make the materials for a car is what? 10%, 15%, 20% of what it will use to operate during it's life.

I was surprised by the figures because 58 MJ is equal to about 16 kilowatt hours of electricity. You can do a lot with that.

Anyway, we need the materials. Let's not torment ourselves over it too much. :)

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