Shopping for high-end mobo: what do I look for?

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:05 pm

Do I need to say that I want the final result to be a quiet computer as well?

So...chime in guys. Pretend that you are building a high-end machine (intel or amd, doesn't matter which). What would you look for in a motherboard in terms of internet gaming?

UrbanVoyeur · Post by **UrbanVoyeur** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:20 pm

dual processor
8x AGP
lots of RAM slots
SATA

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:36 pm

dual processor
8x AGP
lots of RAM slots
SATA

Agreed on the dual processor, AGP, and ram slots (4 should be enough) but could stand to loose the SATA, replace it with U160 or U320 SCSI for your hard drive chains. Regular IDE is also needed since you can't get much in the way of SCSI optical devices.... Also dual embedded 10/100 ethernet and USB ports are useful.

I like the Tyan Thunder series of dual AMD boards, it's what I'll be using in my system.

Gooserider

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:55 pm

I wasn't really thinking along the dual-processor line.....but thanks for your input. I'll have to research that a bit.

If single processor, what would you guys advise?

den140 · Post by **den140** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:03 pm

Hi,

Sorry for the late post....

I was under the imprerssion that dual cpu's were only fully utilized by a few suitably written programs.

I actually thought the other cpu just sat there doing nothing while I played Quake?

I will have to clarify this conception I have. Would love Dual 3GB's if it was fully utilized.!

Post by **Rusty075** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:12 pm

Skip the dual-proc if its a gaming machine. No games that I know of are dual proc aware. And even if they were the performance of any 3D game is limited more by the GPU than anything else.

8X AGP won't get you any performance increase over 4X, but any high-end mobo is going to have it anyway, and I suppose it might "future proof" your board alittle more.

SATA is something I'd definitley look for. If a board didn't have that I'd rule it out immedietely. SATA-RAID would be worth having, even if your not planning on using it right from the beginning.

Your biggest choice is going to be chipset. At the moment the NForce2's are the AMD performance champs. I honestly have no idea what the Intel latest and greatest would be right now.

I'd put the Asus A7N8X-deluxe near the top of your investigating list. It's got:
NForce2 chipset, with fanless NB
AGP8X
SATA
LAN
1394 ports
Dual channel DDR400
etc,etc etc.
Basically everything you'd need

UrbanVoyeur · Post by **UrbanVoyeur** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:17 pm

if you want to throw a LAN party, consider the Netgear 1 Gigabit NIC cards. They are inexpensive and coupled with the Netgear 4 port or 8 port gigabit switch (also cheap) your LAN games will be riduculously fast.

As far as the dual proc, it's really not that expensive. Perhaps $200-$250 more for a second processor, and a $100-200 premium for the board. Less if you go AMD.

That's not much over the life of the computer, especially when you consider the gain in performance.

Noise wise, a dual proc system is only slightly louder.

Plan to put some bucks into a vid card if you want to play the newer games. And possibly more bucks into a quiet cooling solution for it.

You will also need fast quiet hard drives (seagate), quiet CD/DVD drives (toshiba), quiet fans, a fan controller, a high peformance CPU heat sink and a simply amazing number rubber grommets.

As far as SCSI vs SATA or IDE. I would go SATA because the drives are fast, cheap and quiet. SCSI is very fast, but neither cheap nor quiet and IDE is relatively slow these days.

UrbanVoyeur · Post by **UrbanVoyeur** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:17 pm

Also, plan on 2 GB of RAM

Post by **Rusty075** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:20 pm

den140 wrote:I was under the imprerssion that dual cpu's were only fully utilized by a few suitably written programs.

I actually thought the other cpu just sat there doing nothing while I played Quake?

You're right Den, mostly. Although if the program isn't dual-proc aware they'll both sit at 50%. It automatically balances the load between the proc's. Having dual-procs isn't a waste though, even if the programs you run aren't fully utilized. Having the extra proc will mean that you can run more programs at once without losing performance, compared to a single CPU. Of course people generally don't multitask while playing Quake, so for gaming it is a waste. For any game out today if your CPU is middle of the road or better your FPS is being limited by the graphics card more than by the CPU. Actually the FSB has a bigger impact than the Mhz of the processor.

UrbanVoyeur · Post by **UrbanVoyeur** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:26 pm

True that only some programs fully use dual proc, but that's only half the story.

Even if your game can't make use of both processors, your OS will. That means that while 1 cpu is busy with backround tasks, IO and generally keeping the system running, the other is more or less fully available to the gaming.

There will be fewer bottlenecks, much less competition for CPU cycles and your system will feel more responsive. Gaming wise there will be fewer lockup, freezes and deadly pauses.

Once you go dual, you won't go back.

Interestingly enough, a dual 1.4 P3 system will out perform just about all of the 400 Mhz bus P4 based Dual Xeons.

The P3's are beaten by the 533 bus because of optimzations in the core and the 3 GHz clock.

But the real dual champ is the Opteron. Same price as a Xeon or Athalon MP, but waaaay faster.

Post by **Rusty075** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:26 pm

UrbanVoyeur wrote:I would go SATA because the drives are fast, cheap and quiet. SCSI is very fast, but neither cheap nor quiet and IDE is relatively slow these days.

1. SATA is still IDE (a technicality, I know, but its best to avoid confusion)

2. SATA drives offer no performance or noise improvements over PATA (IDE) drives. SATA has a higher theoretical peak speed than PATA, 150 vs 133, but no drive even reaches 133 for sustained transfers yet. Any SATA drive out now or in the next 6 months essentially is a PATA with different chips stuck to the bottom. Eventually they have the potential to be faster, but not until a serious jump is made in the technology.

UrbanVoyeur · Post by **UrbanVoyeur** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:31 pm

You're Right Rusty. SATA is IDE, uses the same drives as IDE and is therefore no qiueter or faster on sustained reads than current IDE

SATA is faster for burst reads.

And for some reason, the SATA drives are $30-$60 less expensive locally than their IDE counter parts. Go figure.

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:37 pm

someone said opteron?

here take a look at this review with games on the opteron.:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1856&p=5

(i started at teh benchamrk page).

also the unreal engine will partially utilize 64-bit and ut2k3 is fully 64 bit compatable.

as well as possible folding advantages? (maybe)

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:41 am

If there is one thing the A7N8X Deluxe lacks, it is the possibility to undervolt. Wether this is a consideration to you Wedge, I don´t know, but it certainly will help in keeping the proc cool and make more quiet fans possible.

As for the proc, I would go for a Barton-core 2500+ with the AQXEA-stepping. Those are in essence a 3200+ proc with the FSB turned down (same multiplayer) and have been proven to be able to overclock past the speed of the 3200+. Unless of course, you do the other way around and undervolt it, which should be fairly easy to do, since it overclocks so well. Not to mention, it only costs a quarter of what the 3200+ does, which saves you an awfull lot of cash to put into your GPU:)

As for the GPU, if you have the money, go for the 9800Pro, if your budget is not realy THAT big, try to get a 9700 (pro or non-pro), since I believe that GPU gives the most performance/dollar in the high end market. And since there are manufacturers who doesn´t provide cooling for the memory, I´d say the Zalman heatpipe will reduce the noice of there fans dramatically:)

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:55 am

For an intel based board get a 865pe or 875 based mobo. I like the asus 865pe non deluxe which is only about $120. I would also get either a 9800pro, 9800 non pro, or 9700pro. The 9800 nonpro is a good choice on a budget.

mond · Post by **mond** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:54 am

don't think sata will offer any actual increased performance over ata100/133 and personally i would go for a raid0 setup using that interface, if raw transfer-rate is wanted. could off course be sata also, but not many boards offer sata-raid yet. sata is nice for "ergonic" reasons. most powerfull processor is no doubt the newer p4 with 800 mhz fsb, the 2,8GHz is the most economic i think, 3GHz and higher is way overpriced. either way the bottleneck is propably going to be your ram, 1gb is minimum and it's worth investing in quality such as OCZ or corsair. ddr400 is a nice match for the 800 mhz fsb. intel chipset should be 865 or 875 as mentioned, not much performance difference, 875 is more expensive.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:55 am

I would say the 2.4c is more economical. Also sata drives are faster than ide drives but not by a huge margin. Whatever ram you do get make sure that u get matching sticks to take advantage of the dual ddr. 512 or a gig would be best, but you have to make sure that the ram you get works right on the mobo you choose. Alot of the new 865 and 875 boards are having trouble with corsair ram. I would get a 865pe p4p800 non deluxe, you will lose ide raid and firewire so get the deluxe version if you need those features.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:01 pm

P4P800 only $129.80 at exotic.pc

Asus A7N8X-Deluxe only $139.99 at SVC.

1. What is the difference between the 865PE and the 865G chipsets?
2. Whatever happened to RD RAM-based boards?
3. What exactly does SATA drives do that IDE cannot?

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:12 pm

Wedge wrote:1. What is the difference between the 865PE and the 865G chipsets?
2. Whatever happened to RD RAM-based boards?
3. What exactly does SATA drives do that IDE cannot?

1. G has integrated graphics. It's usable if You don't play.
2. Ask Intel

3. Hot-swap, if paired with a controller that can do hot-swap. [Actually, You could do hot-swap w/ PATA also]

Cheers,

Jan

Post by **Rusty075** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:47 pm

Wedge wrote:3. What exactly does SATA drives do that IDE cannot?

SATA will eventually replace the current IDE drives. They offer higher theoretical data tranfer speeds, although the current generation is only marginally faster at best. Their data cables are only 9 wires, instead of the bulky ribbons of current IDE drives. The cables can also be much longer, up to a full meter without any performance loss.

But the main reason to get a board with SATA is that there aren't going to be any new IDE drives being introduced, so having that onboard will give you more upgrade options down the road.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:02 pm

Rusty075 wrote: But the main reason to get a board with SATA is that there aren't going to be any new IDE drives being introduced, so having that onboard will give you more upgrade options down the road.

Ah, ok thank you for that, Rusty. May have no use for it immediately, but it will keep me up to date should I need or want it in the not-so-distant future.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:16 pm

there aren't going to be any new IDE drives being introduced

Uhh.. considering the current installed base is 99.8% IDE (versus Serial ATA), I think there will be new IDE drives for quite a few years to come.. but yes, SATA connectors are not a bad thing to have for the future.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:28 pm

Pretend that you are building a high-end machine (intel or amd, doesn't matter which). What would you look for in a motherboard in terms of internet gaming?

Hmm. I think the first question to ask is, do you want to go water or air cooling?

Once you've answered that, the current best bang for the buck is the p4 2.4c (latest version w/800mhz bus and hyperthreading) and an intel 875 chipset mobo like the ABIT IC7.

Most 875 boards and the IC7 include everything you would possibly want.. integrated gigabit ethernet, usb 2, firewire, onboard audio, serial and parallel ata, 4 slots of dual channel ddr, etc etc etc.

Overclocking the 2.4c to 3.0ghz is almost 100% guaranteed to work, and quite easy courtesy of the many bus/memory ratios avalable on 875 boards. Or don't overclock (even underclock) if you want low noise as a priority over performance. Your choice!

As for video card. Buy this $249 128mb Radeon 9800 card, flash it with the 9800 pro bios, and poof.. you have a dirt-cheap card running the same exact clock speeds as the current high end 9800 pro.

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.a ... 14-102-292

Read user comments for success stories, I didn't post mine there, but I got better than 9800 pro clock speeds flashed into the bios and it is totally stable.

Post by **Rusty075** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:40 pm

wumpus wrote:I think there will be new IDE drives for quite a few years to come.. but yes, SATA connectors are not a bad thing to have for the future.

They'll end quicker than you expect. Once the current crop of IDE drives in development come out all new drives from the major makers will default to SATA. They'll make SATA to PATA adapters available for backwards compatibility. Sorta like the PATA to SATA adapters that are shipping now with most SATA drives.

In three years PATA drives will be in the same bins as 500mb HDD's and ISA video cards.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:54 pm

In three years PATA drives will be in the same bins as 500mb HDD's and ISA video cards.

it's ridiculous to think that far forward, though-- who wouldn't upgrade their system by then anyway?

If you were still using a 3 year old system today, you would have.. let me think.. a 32mb GeForce 2 GTS + an Athlon 1ghz (AMD irongate chipset) or P3 1ghz (intel BX/815 chipset). At best, meaning you bought bleeding edge components back in September 2000.

Post by **Rusty075** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 3:23 pm

In three years PATA drives will be in the dustbin.
A year from now Newegg won't be selling any.
6 months from now any new advancements in HDD's will be available only in SATA form.
I wouldn't pay big money for an IDE drive today.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:00 pm

wumpus wrote: Overclocking the 2.4c to 3.0ghz is almost 100% guaranteed to work, and quite easy courtesy of the many bus/memory ratios avalable on 875 boards. Or don't overclock (even underclock) if you want low noise as a priority over performance. Your choice!

I'll use my 7000Cu for CPU cooling, and I'll want things quiet. Does any amount of OCing of a 2.4C mean that the 7000Cu can't be left at it's lowest fan setting? Or does it depend on how much overclocking is done?

i.e., taking the 2.4C to 2.6 would necessitate an increase in the 7000Cu fan speed from its lowest setting of the fanmate? I know nothing of overclocking so I have to ask novice-like questions.

Also, I'm wondering about motherboards with integrated 5 and 6 channel sound. Are these on par with the popular gaming sound cards (Soundblaster Live, Audigy)?

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:05 pm

Jan Kivar wrote:
Wedge wrote:1. What is the difference between the 865PE and the 865G chipsets?
2. Whatever happened to RD RAM-based boards?
3. What exactly does SATA drives do that IDE cannot?
1. G has integrated graphics. It's usable if You don't play.
2. Ask Intel
3. Hot-swap, if paired with a controller that can do hot-swap. [Actually, You could do hot-swap w/ PATA also]

Cheers,

Jan

Thanks for that Jan

....about to write Intel now.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:08 pm

Also, I'm wondering about motherboards with integrated 5 and 6 channel sound. Are these on par with the popular gaming sound cards (Soundblaster Live, Audigy)?

The CPU usage will always be higher for the on-board sound-- that's why they are inexpensive, they have no DSP.. the CPU does all the work. While this isn't a big deal for 2D sound and MP3, it gets to be a problem for 3D sound engines, which do require a lot of processing. Like so..

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multim ... n71_7.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multim ... nd_10.html

Bottom line, if you are a gamer, get an Audigy. Don't get the Live, it has too many PCI-ish issues. I am no fan of Creative but there really isn't any other choice for decent, *fully* EAX compatible hardware accelerated multi-channel 3D sound these days. RIP Aureal!

Does any amount of OCing of a 2.4C mean that the 7000Cu can't be left at it's lowest fan setting? Or does it depend on how much overclocking is done?

You'll have to experiment, really. It is amazing how cool P4 chips run at idle, much much cooler than Athlons in my experience. Of course under 100% load they are just as hot if not hotter.

Again the advantage of the p2.4c / i875 setup is how flexible it is wrt over/underclocking. I'm sure you will be able to find the right balance for your system.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:12 pm

wumpus wrote: As for video card. Buy this $249 128mb Radeon 9800 card, flash it with the 9800 pro bios, and poof.. you have a dirt-cheap card running the same exact clock speeds as the current high end 9800 pro.

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.a ... 14-102-292

Read user comments for success stories, I didn't post mine there, but I got better than 9800 pro clock speeds flashed into the bios and it is totally stable.

Wow! Thanks for that too wumpus. The non pro from Newegg is the exact card I had my eye on. Glad to hear your's is stable.

Actually, this whole idea of building a gaming PC came when deciding to get a 9800 pro or np. I don't have a machine that runs over 1.7ghz and many gaming enthusiasts were warning that to get the full benefit of the new card with the upcoming games (HL2, Doom3) I would need a higher-end machine. So, I'm thinking a minimum of 2.4, but perhaps as high as 2.8.

But, as usual, quietness is imperative.