Silverstone's Flagship: Temjin TJ06 PC case

Want to talk about one of the articles in SPCR? Here's the forum for you.
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Post by MikeC » Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:37 pm

This is way off topic, but....
The internal diode measures the temperature of the core. Any probe you use can only measure external temperature. Many BIOS don't report the temperature accurately. Without proper calibration, the best you can expect is relative temperature differences.
The interesting thing about Intel's thermal specs in their tech docs for the P4 is that they don't mention the thermal diode temperature. Instead, they refer to...

Processor Case Temperature... the temperature measured at the center of the top surface of the IHS. (integrated heat spreader)

This temp is obtained via a thermocouple epoxied to the top surface of the IHS of the CPU, and a groove machined into the heatsink base to allow this thermocouple to be routed from the center of the heatsink without altering the IHS for heatsink attachment.

For the record, Intel's spec for the max safe operating case temp of a P4-2.8C is 75C.

Intel makes no attempt to correlate casing temp to the Thermal Diode reported temps. Reading between the lines of their docs, they imply that the Thermal Diode is not really that accurate. It is possible that the cool corner location of the thermal diode in the die, may be an effort by Intel to have the thermal diode approximate the center casing temperature.

FWIW.

Edit: There is a second thermal sensor in the P4 die. This one is "used for the Thermal Monitor and for THERMTRIP#... which shut down the processor when the silicon temperature has reached approximately ~135 °C."

-----

Back on topic, could TJ06 users report on thermal performance in your systems -- and the conditions & components?

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Post by Bluefront » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:34 am

Mike's explatation of how Intel looks at the processor case temp, seems to affirm my own way of gathering CPU temp information.

In the case of an Alpha heatsink, I place an external temp probe at the base of the fins, exactly over the center of the CPU. And since the copper base transfers heat fairly quickly across it's whole area, a temp reading off the side edge of the heatsink base using my laser device, is also an accurate measurement.

With my Aerocool HT 101, the fins are attached to the base through heatpipes, and usually measure somewhat less than the base. With all temp measurements, there are no absolutes, and no perfect methods.

Just keep it under 75C...... :lol:

FWIW....At least one guy I know of, drilled a hole through the side edge of the base of an Alpha, and embedded a sensor in that location......trying to get a more accurate reading. :?

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Post by renegade44 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:11 am

slimeballzz wrote:
renegade44 wrote:3. The wind tunnel snaps that hold it in are easy to break. You can order a spare wind tunnel from Sundial Micro for twenty bucks

I broke one of the snaps a few days ago though it didn't really affect anything so I left it as it. But today I took the windtunnel out and put it on the floor and while I was sucking up the dust with the vacuum, phone rang and I ran to get it. Came back and CRACK! I stepped on it by accident :cry:

Anyways where can I get the spare wind tunnel on Sundial Micro site?
I'm having a hard time finding it on the site.. :?
E-mail the sales department

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Post by MikeC » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:38 am

Substantial Revisions to the review

I'd like to thank renegade44, slimeballzz and Bluefront for their comments. They have made me reevaluate the case, and incorporate changes in the article for what I think is a better balanced review.

The biggest changes are all in the last page. Esp. near the bottom... below the subhead TJ06 Vs. SPCR PSU INTAKE DUCT

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Post by mikellpp » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:25 pm

For me the biggest thing missing from this review is temperatures attained with a normal heat sink/fan combination. Judging from other reviews of this case that test it this way, it shows that the temps are within one degree with the wind tunnel in the case or removed. There is a review with the P4 2.8 using a Thermalright slk947/fan and accross the board the temps are within one degree. Which means the wind tunnel is not very helpful.

As far as ease of quieting a similar case, i use the common Chieftec Dragon case with a Seasonic Tornado p/s, one Panaflo 80mm/7volts rear exhaust and one Panaflo 80mm/5volts to cool the hard drive. I am running a AMD64 @ 2.4ghz and at full load this system draws 184 watts from the wall socket with CPU @ 50-55C. I am still using the stock AMD hsf because its very quiet at idle (~1800 rpm) and the Seasonic fan (~800rpm) is also quiet. At full load these ramp up to ~3000rpm & ~1000rpm, with a bit more noise.

I still may get the Silverstone case ( it looks great) but i dont expect it to cool any better or quieter (with or without the wind tunnel) than my Chieftec.

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Post by MikeC » Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:33 pm

A normal HSF will not benefit as much from the wind tunnel as one that has the right fin orientation. There will be little difference w/ or w/o the duct if you already have a dedicated fan blowing down on a tight finned HS with 50cfm @50 dBA... :lol:

We tested the case with the dedicated HS because that's the way it was intended to be used, it seemed only fair to follow the maker's guidelines in view of the unusual design. I would not personally use this case with a fanned HS -- that's taking away one of the big advantages of the case design.

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Post by mathias » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:01 pm

MikeC wrote:I would not personally use this case with a fanned HS -- that's taking away one of the big advantages of the case design.
I can see why this would be so with a heatsink blowing up or down, but wouldn't a tower type heatsink with a fan eliminate the need for those two 12cm fans? The only problem I see with that is if the fan fails, the CPU will be well done.

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Post by DocSilly » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:57 am

Hello,

first post, I just signed up to ask some questions regarding the TJ06 (but I've been secretly reading for quite a while).

I want to use the Asus A8N-SLI in that case, here's a pic showing the orientation of the socket: http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socket9 ... li-d_l.jpg
Are there any good passive HS that would work with that socket orientation? If not I'll have to go with the XP-120 and a quiet fan on a fancontroller.

p.s. I am well aware of the noise that'll be generated from the active nforce4 chipset cooler ... that's something I'll have to look into later.
I love how the airtunnel seperates the main heatsource (CPU) from the rest of the system. Add a videocard with nv silencer and the second biggest heatsource will also be taken out of the case (and it's also a quiet solution). I don't plan to go silent yet, I'll be happy with a quiet solution.

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Post by renegade44 » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:30 pm

mathias wrote:
MikeC wrote:I would not personally use this case with a fanned HS -- that's taking away one of the big advantages of the case design.
I can see why this would be so with a heatsink blowing up or down, but wouldn't a tower type heatsink with a fan eliminate the need for those two 12cm fans? The only problem I see with that is if the fan fails, the CPU will be well done.
I don't agree with Mike on this one so I'll try to get some data together and see what happens

Here is what I have and What I plan to do

Abit NF-7S
2500XP-M
SLK-900U
Silverstone 460W PSU
ATI 9800 hacked to pro
Wintv 250MCE
Audigy 2 ZS Platinum
2 WD2500JD
3 Maxtor Diamondmax9

2 enermax adjustable 120mm fans UC-FAB12
1 Thermaltake adjustable 80mm smartcase II fan
I still have the silverstone fans and may or may not put them back in for a test run.

I just bought a 92mm 120CFM fan for the SLK-900U rated at 57DB and a fan controller I need to install

I can read the rpm on the silvertone PSU which is thermally controlled

Temps read will be CPU socket and motherboard thermistors, at the moment this is written case is 24C CPU Socket is 41C and hard drive is 47C with no wind tunnel and side panels off

I do not have a DB meter or an Temp Probe.

Noise will be based on my calibrated ears

I have 5 hard drives in the HD bay in addition I have a WD800JB mounted in the optical bay I may put it in the 6 drive bay so I can get temp readings

I also have a SIIG 4-port SATA controller however I can't read smart data from more than one drive although all 4 drives are smart capable. Anyone have any ideas how i can correct that?

Once I get started I'll do a test with the tunnel on and with it off. The SLK900U fins are crossways from the direction of air flow in the tunnel i.e wind tunnel air will not flow through the fins

I'm working this weekend so maybe the middle of this week

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Post by renegade44 » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:36 pm

Mike

Have you received any feedback from Silverstone on this review?

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Post by Ridcully » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:25 am

If you have this case and and the silverstone heat sink is it able to shift enough heat if you use the silverstone fanless PSU as well ?

Has the potential for a quiet solution but concerned it may fry

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Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:25 am

renegade44 wrote:
MikeC wrote:I would not personally use this case with a fanned HS -- that's taking away one of the big advantages of the case design.
I don't agree with Mike on this one so I'll try to get some data together and see what happens
OK, I probably shouldn't say that. What I should say is that I'd definitely try and use a flow-through type HS w/ the correct orientation, and try a very quiet airflow fan blowing in the same direction as the back 120mm fan and lose the duct. That would increase cooling for the rest of the system and probably not change the CPU cooling.

No feedback from Silverstone.

No I don't think a fanless PSU in this case makes sense.

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Post by Bluefront » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:29 am

Mike...I suspect you could run this whole setup without that particular duct in place, while maintaining the same or lower CPU temps. It looks like it simply needs some tweaking....maybe a different duct. There is absolutely nothing wrong with ducting CPU heat directly out of a computer using a duct setup, but getting a particular ready-made duct to work properly with your own components is not easy. I am surprised Silverstone did not do their homework better.....maybe recommend a particular motherboard, maybe a dedicated fan control system.

After looking at the case further, I also suspect the area of the intake is too little and too restricted. I would open up another intake area somewhere.....providing the rest of the case (if the duct was used) with better airflow. And I would try to do something to improve the front intake airflow to the front CPU fan.

You realize if you run this case setup without a duct in place, you defeat the whole purpose of the up-side-down motherboard. And you then expose the rest of the case to heat rising off the CPU, heating up everything else in the setup.....much more so than a standard MB mounting. :?

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Post by renegade44 » Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:34 am

Bluefront wrote:You realize if you run this case setup without a duct in place, you defeat the whole purpose of the up-side-down motherboard. And you then expose the rest of the case to heat rising off the CPU, heating up everything else in the setup.....much more so than a standard MB mounting. :?
Actually the outlet fan next to the cpu is going to suck out a lot of the hot air from the cpu with or without the duct

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Post by Bluefront » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:13 am

uhh...I'm thinking the front CPU fan is blowing into the case, supposedly through the duct, then blown out the rear by the rear duct fan.

That's why there's a filter setup behind the front bezel. Wouldn't make any sense to filter out-going air. :?

So if you remove the duct, hot air off the CPU goes straight into the case interior.....

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Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:07 am

If a HSF that blows towards the back exhaust fan is used, and the back exhaust fan is left on, then you have much of the push/pull effect of duct + dual 120mm fan setup. While the incoming air to the CPU HS might not be as cool as if the duct was used (it might come across the RAM only...), the pressure and air velocity across the fins would benefit from the close placement of the HS fan and so compensate for the absence of the duct.

This might cause more of the CPU heat to rise up into the rest of the case, but with the HS fan and back 120mm exhaust fan working in tandem, it probably would be a very small -- if any -- thermal change. There would also be the added benefit of the incoming 120mm fan airflow now spreading throughout the case rather than just through the duct.

------------------------

The possible restriction of the bezel drill was noted in the review. However, for the sake of curiosity, I studied the bezel very closely this morn.

The blade area of a 120mm fan with a 45mm hub (typical; applies to Silverstone fan) is 8777 sq mm.
The blade area of a 80mm fan with a 35mm hub (typical; applies to Silverstone fan) is 3612 sq mm.
Therefore the total intake area need to feed these fans without restriction is 12,389 sq mm.

The front bezel has 120 holes measuring around 3.5 x 23 mm. This results in about 9660 sq mm. However, the metal dust filter behind it is a simple pattern of small round holes with more metal around each hole than is ideal. I would estimate that the amount of restriction represented by this filter is at least 30%, maybe as high as 40%. This suggests that the total intake area is 7000 sq mm or less. It is perhaps 40% shy of the area needed for unrestricted airflow.

Then you have to add into the equation the small amount of grillwork that's directly in front of each fan. These are very minimal and subjectively don't really restrict the airflow, but it's probably another 10% -- 1240 sq mm.

So now we are down to half the intake area needed to feed the intake fans without restriction. :!:

The question is what impact this has.

1) Does it mean the fans deliver less than "free air rated airflow"? Yes. But how much less is hard to tell, this will depend on rpm. (pressure changes with rpm)
2) Does it mean air has to accelerate through the openings to get enough volume? Yes, at higher velocity, this is what happens, and the additional turbulence results in both increased noise and decreased airflow. Again, how great this effect is depends.

So Bluefront, your instinct about the front bezel appears correct. It is probably too restrictive.

The test rig at SPCR has long been dismantled, and there are other reviews in progress, so it's not available for more experimentation. But members who use this case could report on the result of this little experiment:

Record all the temps as best as you can after running full load (CPUBUrn or full system benchmarks) for at least 15-20 mins. Then open the bezel, remove the metal perforated filter behind the bezel (just need to undo a few screws), close it up and repeat the system stress exactly. After the same amount of time, record the temps.

That screen represents at least 30% restriction. In theory, removing it should improve all the temps at least a little.

EDIT: BTW -- the simple expedient of removing any of the exposed front drive bay covers increases the intake area to the front fans -- there is a 3/4" gap between the front bezel and the chassis front panel where the fans are mounted. So removing one or both floppy drive covers should have a noticeable cooling effect as well.

The metal screen removal, a floppy door removal (maybe stick the metal screen up there instead?), cutting away the inside fan grills (not needed for EMI anyway because of the front bezel) and then applying a better dust filter directly in front of the two fans would probably make the intake as unrestricted as it needs to be.

Alternatively you could cut out the bottom lip that's part of the frame between the front bezel "door" and the front steel panel. This is pretty thick, but it is aluminum...

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Post by josephclemente » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:09 pm

MikeC wrote:No contest against a Sonata -- the Sonata doesn't even come close for airflow or cooling or quality of fans. They're in different classes. The Sonata is a kind of starter piece but if you like to mess around or go for super quiet, you quickly outgrow it.
I'm seriously thinking about building a PC with a Sonata. Other than PSU and fans (which will be replaced), assuming it has all the drive bays needed, in what ways do people outgrow it?

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Post by Tibors » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:35 pm

You outgrow the Sonata because:
  • You can't suspend HDs in it.
  • The Antec logos let out to much noise.
  • The amount of work you have to do to get good airflow in it is quite large. (See the sticky in the Cases and Damping forum.)
I have two Sonatas and will never buy another one.

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Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:57 pm

Tibors wrote:You outgrow the Sonata because:
  • You can't suspend HDs in it.
  • The Antec logos let out to much noise.
  • The amount of work you have to do to get good airflow in it is quite large. (See the sticky in the Cases and Damping forum.)
One more thing: The stock PSU is not really that quiet.

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Post by josephclemente » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:23 pm

Tibors wrote:You outgrow the Sonata because:
  • You can't suspend HDs in it.
  • The Antec logos let out to much noise.
  • The amount of work you have to do to get good airflow in it is quite large. (See the sticky in the Cases and Damping forum.)
I have two Sonatas and will never buy another one.
Ah, excellent! Those are very minor issues - I can deal with those easily. :)

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Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:38 pm

But why bother when you can get better cases from the get go? The Antec 3000 + quiet PSU of your choice, for example, if you are into that Antec look.

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Post by Bluefront » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:50 pm

"I can deal with those easily"

Heh.....yeah but how do you deal with a right-side cover and top that are one piece and cannot be removed? Being able to access the right side of the case interior is of great benefit for modding, hiding wires, using screws to attach the right side of bay devices, etc.....

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Post by PPGMD » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:49 am

Any recommend powersupplys that have long enough leads for this case?

I currently have the Coolmax 120mm version, I don't think the wires are long enough.

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Post by Cams » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:36 am

This looks like an interesting case for my forthcoming upgrade. I'm planning a Winchester system for the new year and am considering a new case. The one may not be easy to find in Europe (I waited almost a year for my GMC to become available) but I'd really rather not get into too much modding and so this off-the-shelf solution might just be what I'm after.

Thanks for the review!

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Off the shelf... Not the best

Post by Prozzaks » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:39 am

After looking around and getting as much information as possible regarding quiet PCs, it's obvious that there is no PC case readily available that is really quiet. The case makers try to sell their products with other criterion than noise. When they do give sound pressure measures or claim that their product is quiet, the figures are not reliable.

I do believe that there are only two solutions for truly quiet PCs :
- A lot of carefully planned modifications to an adequate case
- Designing and building a case from scratch

I opted for the latter. I am in the design phase and within one week I should be able to post some rendered pictures of my planned computer chassis. When I do post them in this forum, I'm sure I'll get great insightful feedback from everybody here. :)

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Post by Thomc » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:56 pm

Boy did this review come at a good time for me! :o

I have been dithering for the past three weeks, trying to figure out the best case to use to try to build a tolerably quiet system using a 3.6 GHz Socket T system. :? I know this is a ridiculously hot :oops: processor, but it's what I've got, so I have to do the best I can with this as a starting place.

I was pretty sure I could get enough cooling with the TJ06, but I was afraid it would be too loud out of the box. Now, based on what MikeC had to say, it seems like the TJ06 would be a good place for me to start.

So - two questions for MikeC

1. What CPU heatsink would your recommend I use in the TJ06 with a Socket T processor? Unfortunately, the NT01 only works with the Socket 478 procs. I was thinking even if I had to use something like the Zalman CNPS7700 with the fan running (at low), the duct and 120mm fans would at least flush most of the heat out of the case before it could get the rest of the system.

2. I know there isn't room in the existing HD cage to suspend 3.5" drives. I had two ideas.

The first idea is not for actual suspension, but a soft mount. Since the drive cage is set up to use drive rails, there must be some space above and below the drives. I thought maybe the drives could be rested on some sort of soft padding, like silicone gasketing, below, and the drives could be prevented from falling over by running some type of elastic material vertically between the top and bottom of the cage - say three lengths between each drive space. This would keep the drives "upright", and they could simply sit on the padding below. Another length of elastic could be run across the front and the back of the drive case, thereby preventing the drives from scooting out the front or the back. The drive would not then be screwed in or hard mounted in any way.

My second idea depends on whether the bottom of the drive case is important to the structural strength of the case. If it isn't, I was thinking maybe the bottom of the drive case could be cut out. Then, assuming the last PCI slot is not in use, it seems like there should be enough space to suspend 3.5" drives from the top of the drive cage. The drives could be held apart either by use of some elastic between the rear of the case to the back of the external 3.5" drive cage, or by fasting some soft of foam bumper to the drives - something that would not touch the next drive when the drives were hanging straight down, but that wouldn't allow the drives more than about 3mm play.

If either one of these ideas would work, they would both isolate most of HD noise from the case - especially the last one. Then if a power supply like the Nexus NX-4090 is mounted, there should be good air flow past the hard drives.

So, MikeC - do you think either of these ideas would work in the TJ06?

BTW - thanks once again, MikeC, for the great service you provide. I was going nuts, trying to figure out what to do. I had read multiple positive reviews on the TJ06 - but it wasn't until I read yours that I really believed it was a quiet case out of the box. :D

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Post by MikeC » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:37 pm

Hi Thomc,

Well, as you may have gathered from the discussion up to this point, there are others who feel this case cannot be really that effective because of the reduced airflow for the upper portion of the case, and because of the somewhat restricted front vent (relative to the airea of the intake fans). The latter issue can probably be resolved as I described in one of my last posts.

As for HS, most big ones will fit in the duct as long as the socket placement is OK. For your CPU,I suggest getting the best you can find. I would look first at all the HS that blow air parallel to the board like the Aerocool ones, not up or down. A thermalright XP90 would probably fit (w/ Thermalright adapter), as would the Z7700 (I think!?) but maybe not the XP120 -- especially if you try to put a fan on it. Some of the cross-blow HSF made by Scythe are probably reasonable bets; they have fittings for 775.

One option I had not thought about before is to cut the duct really short -- so that it only covers the HSF to the back fan. You might have to use doiuble side tape or something to secure the cut end. This would still give you the benefit of insulating the CPU heat from the rest of the case. If you used a HS with a fan that would allow a push/pull airflow setup with the back fan, then the loss of all the direct outside air to the CPU would not be much of a loss. This would mean the front fan will also feed outside air to the whole case... AND the front bottom area behind the 120mm fan becomes open for HDDs to be placed/suspended.

Regarding the questions about your HDD bay options, yes, I think they are all feasible. Someone described removing the HDD bay and cutting a hole for a 120mm fan on the back panel just behind there. There are 2 cross beams that support the HDD bay, which is basically a sideways U bracket. Look at the detailed pics of that area in the review - p3? 4?

The NX4090 is not a good choice BTW, the cables are too short. The Seasonic Tornado's leads are long enough, so check its lengths (in the review) to see what you need.

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Post by Thomc » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:04 am

MikeC wrote:The NX4090 is not a good choice BTW, the cables are too short. The Seasonic Tornado's leads are long enough, so check its lengths (in the review) to see what you need.
Whoa Mike, this is sad news! :(

The NX-4090 was exactly what I needed otherwise - super quiet, 12cm fan on the bottom to provide air flow to the hard drives, and - most importantlly - it is ATX12V v2.0 compatible.

Am I correct that the only two cables that are too short are the mobo main power cable and the 2x2 12V CPU power cable - and do you know roughly how many inches short they are?

The main mobo cable requires an adapter cable to change it from 20 to 24 pins. If that adapter cable is not sufficient in itself, I might be able to make the adapter cable longer since I have the tools to work with Molex connectors.

Alternately, do you know of any other v2.0 power supplies that are quiet, have 12cm fans and have long enough cables?

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Post by MikeC » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:13 am

The Seasonic S. Tornado rev a3 used in the review. The 400w model is v2.0.

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Post by RaNDoMMAI » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:50 am

Thomc wrote:
Alternately, do you know of any other v2.0 power supplies that are quiet, have 12cm fans and have long enough cables?
you could always buy cable extensions. i had to do that when i tried moving my psu outside the case. but then the cables get to long...

~RaNDoM

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