Diamond Radeon HD4850

Want to talk about one of the articles in SPCR? Here's the forum for you.
MikeC
Site Admin
Posts: 12283
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Diamond Radeon HD4850

Post by MikeC » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:49 am

Mike Chin, SPCR Editor/Publisher
Support SPCR by buying your gear through this link: Amazon

lm
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:14 am
Location: Finland

Post by lm » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:13 pm

Are you talking with the manufacturer or designer of the card about the high idle consumption? Honestly 50W idle is just plain ridiculous and I'm not going to touch it with a stick. It's almost an insult to nature.

Matija
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:17 am
Location: Croatia

Post by Matija » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:26 pm

Nobody really knows what's going on.

There's a theory that the 38xx and 48xx series were developed by two different teams at the same time, instead of the 48xx being a progression over the 38xx.

Time will tell if it's possible to lower idle power consumption. Modded BIOS files to downclock the card in 2D don't seem to help much, and it's doubtful that a voltage reduction would bring the 4850 to 38xx levels.

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:55 pm

I suspect (and hope) that the idle power consumption will drop a fair bit with the next Catalyst drivers, or another hotfix.

Its pretty lame to have a modern GPU that uses half of its max power whilst doing nothing, although @ 100W max usage I am quite happy as it shouldn't need a cooling fan on the S1.


Andy
Main PC, P180, CM Silent Pro 500M, i5 3570k @ 4.2Ghz, 8-GB @ 2,400MHz, 512GB 850 EVO, 500 Extreme II, 2x 2.5" drives, MSI 660Ti Twin Frozr.
Server, under reconstruction, 380W Enermax Pro82+, positive pressure only.

SebRad
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 1121
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:18 am
Location: UK

Post by SebRad » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:50 pm

I'm thinking I'd quite like one of these cards but I don't "need" one nor do I play that many games that would benefit from the performance. (none actually!) But then need isn't what it's about!
I find the power consumption figures to be a little concerning; then again my X1950pro will increase the AC usage by 50w when running ATI Tool so it's not so far off. I’m definitely going to hold off for a while and see how the idle power consumption pans out. The Accelero won't fit my case, I'd be looking at Zalman VF-1000, good idea? I’ve fan-swapped VF-900 so I can do that to it if needed.
Final thought: 100w DC usage for the video card? I built an E8400 (Core 2 Duo "wolfdale" 3GHz) system with HD3450 graphics that ran SMP Folding@Home at 100w AC, ~80DC!
Regards, Seb
i7 2600k under NH-C14 w/2xTY-147PWM fans, P8P67Deluxe, 8GB RAM, GTX560Ti OC w/TwinTurbo II and BIOS fanspeed mod. MX100 512GB & 2TB EARX in Scythe QuietDrive outside case. Antec Signature 650 fan swapped. CoolerMaster 201C with 2x92 + lower 92mm fan out rear, holes-in-floor and mesh top+front intakes.

Hypernova
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 2:33 am
Location: Australia

Post by Hypernova » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:32 pm

Matija wrote:Nobody really knows what's going on.

There's a theory that the 38xx and 48xx series were developed by two different teams at the same time, instead of the 48xx being a progression over the 38xx.

Time will tell if it's possible to lower idle power consumption. Modded BIOS files to downclock the card in 2D don't seem to help much, and it's doubtful that a voltage reduction would bring the 4850 to 38xx levels.
The team behind R7XX is the one behind XBOX's Xeno GPU. Hence the architecture is quite different.

As for the heat there is an issue with the GPU not down clocking during idle, if you search around many have modded the VGA BIOS to down clock and slightly bump the fan speed for a huge decrease in temps. Search around for Readon Bios Editor (RBE) on Xtreme Systems and the like.

Mr. Perfect
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: United States

Post by Mr. Perfect » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:06 pm

Just wanted to say thanks for doing such a thorough review of the heat, power and noise of this card. :) I know it's common practice around here, but is uncommon considering what I've seen in other sites' 4850 reviews. It seems that everyone was in such a rush to get a review out, that they just about skipped the entire heat, power and noise portion of their articles. *coughanandcough*

Matija
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:17 am
Location: Croatia

Post by Matija » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:04 pm

Hypernova wrote:As for the heat there is an issue with the GPU not down clocking during idle, if you search around many have modded the VGA BIOS to down clock and slightly bump the fan speed for a huge decrease in temps. Search around for Readon Bios Editor (RBE) on Xtreme Systems and the like.
That's the thing - downclocking the GPU doesn't seem to help much, we're talking about a difference of 2-3 degrees in idle, which hints to a couple of watts.

nutball
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1304
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:16 am
Location: en.gb.uk

Post by nutball » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:01 pm

Umm... am I reading those GPU-Z shots correctly, that the GPU clock at idle was 500MHz, memory at 750MHz? That's a fair way out of line with the modified BIOS settings (160/500) I've seen so there's certainly something screwy going on.

blackworx
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 601
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:04 am
Location: UK

Post by blackworx » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:55 am

Lawrence Lee wrote:it should have been equipped with a dual slot cooler
Are you sure about that? Going by the load temperatures, the cooler is perfectly adequate (if horribly loud). It seems to me that the excessive 2D power consumption is the reason for the high idle temps. It looks like the fan speed profile has been designed for a much lower thermal output at idle than is currently the case, which gives further credence to the suggestion that the issue will be resolved by the next Catalyst update.

Even if the current cooler wasn't enough, I'm sure the problem could be fixed simply by using a bigger single slot cooler. Taking up an extra slot seems excessive.

NeilBlanchard
Moderator
Posts: 7681
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
Contact:

Post by NeilBlanchard » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:16 am

Hi,

I gotta' say that the skull image is bad enough to make me not want to buy this card. I cringe when I look at it...
Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

blackworx
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 601
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:04 am
Location: UK

Post by blackworx » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:35 am

You're right Neil it is seriously cringeworthy. But in reality it's not as bad as the usual 3D-rendered-scantily-clad-faux-medieval-fembot-in-miniskirt-showing-sideboob-clutching-giant-sword-to-cleavage teenage wank fantasy we're normally subjected to.

rpsgc
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:59 am
Location: Portugal

Post by rpsgc » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:36 am

I'm pretty sure that Powerplay simply isn't working.
Fractal Define R4 | Corsair AX750 | MSI Z97 Gaming 5 | Intel Core i7 4770K w/TRUE 120 Rev. C | 16GB G.Skill Sniper DDR3-1866 | Sapphire Nitro+ RX 480 8GB OC | Crucial m4 128GB + Crucial MX100 512GB + WD Blue 1TB + WD Red 4TB | JVC HA-RX900 | Dell U2312HM + BenQ G2400WD | Asus Echelon Mechanical Keyboard | Logitech G400s

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:43 am

But in reality it's not as bad as the usual 3D-rendered-scantily-clad-faux-medieval-fembot-in-miniskirt-showing-sideboob-clutching-giant-sword-to-cleavage teenage wank fantasy we're normally subjected to.
:mrgreen:


Andy
Main PC, P180, CM Silent Pro 500M, i5 3570k @ 4.2Ghz, 8-GB @ 2,400MHz, 512GB 850 EVO, 500 Extreme II, 2x 2.5" drives, MSI 660Ti Twin Frozr.
Server, under reconstruction, 380W Enermax Pro82+, positive pressure only.

Shemale
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:25 pm
Location: România

Post by Shemale » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:26 am

Test Platform.....
...* ATI Catalyst 8.5 beta graphics driver
Anybody felt a modification in power consumption at idle with the leaked Catalyst 8.7 beta? Or registering lower temperatures?

thejamppa
Posts: 3142
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:20 am
Location: Missing in Finnish wilderness, howling to moon with wolf brethren and walking with brother bears
Contact:

Post by thejamppa » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:44 am

currently you can use HD 48x0 fan speed by creating a Catalyst Control Center profile after activating overdrive. After creating the profile you can change that target speed's and creating better temperatures.

Making the adjustment you need to open .XML file in Ati's ACE folder( courtesy of bretware from Guru 3D, thanks ). You need Excel or equal program to modify it:
if you make a profile in catalyst after turning on Overdrive( make sure clock and memory settings are correct). You can then go to the file "C:\Users\Bretware\AppData\Local\ATI\ACE\Bretware. XML. the xml file will have the same name as the catalyst profile you saved. right click and hit edit.

Code: Select all

<Feature name="FanSpeedAlgorithm_0">
<Property name="FanSpeedAlgorithm" value="Manual" />
</Feature>
<Feature name="FanSpeedRPMTarget_0">
<Property name="Want" value="0" />
</Feature>
<Feature name="FanSpeedPercentTarget_0">
<Property name="Want" value="65" />
Change the value to "manual" and Want value to "65"

Save the file then reload your profile in catalyst.
just remember you need to see hidden files and folders to see this. Profile can also be in: C:\Documents and Settinds\UserNameHere [or All users]\Application Data\ATI\ACE
If seeing is believing, how can blind person believe in anything?
Maturity is just not experience in life but also ability to make compromises.

Matija
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:17 am
Location: Croatia

Post by Matija » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:55 am

rpsgc wrote:I'm pretty sure that Powerplay simply isn't working.
Maybe it's not even there.

If high idle power consumption was a software issue, it would have been fixed already.

If it's a BIOS issue, something would have leaked. Apart from a MSI BIOS that does lower the clocks in 2D, there's nothing.

Tzupy
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1561
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:47 am
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Post by Tzupy » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:37 am

There's something missing in ALL the reviews I read on the HD48xx series, and actually in ALL reviews of gfx cards.
How much power does the GPU itself use and how much the rest of the components (memory, VRMs, etc)?
From the 101W (SPCR figure) or 110W (Xbitlabs figure, that I'll use in the following lines) for the 4850, how much does the GPU draw?
My guess is 80W for the GPU and 30W for the rest. But some people in the forums believe that it's more for the rest, because undervolting the GPU didn't provide much benefit, while undervolting the memory lowered power consumption more.
I'm interested in the following: to get a 4870, undervolt and underclock it to 4850 levels, and keep the stock cooler of the 4870 at ~50% of stock rpms (not 50% of max rpm). Since for me the performance of the 4850 is good enough, I'm willing to pay more for the 4870, and the 4870's cooler exhausts heat, it seems a good deal. I might reseat the stock 4870 cooler and add a HR-11 to prevent it form ramping up too much. Your thoughts about this?

Modo
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:32 am
Location: Poland

Post by Modo » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:57 am

blackworx wrote:Going by the load temperatures, the cooler is perfectly adequate (if horribly loud).
Longest oxymoron I've seen so far. ;)
Can you keep it down? I'm having trouble hearing the artillery.

Current rig
Old PC

blackworx
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 601
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:04 am
Location: UK

Post by blackworx » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:03 am

Modo wrote:
blackworx wrote:Going by the load temperatures, the cooler is perfectly adequate (if horribly loud).
Longest oxymoron I've seen so far. ;)
In which case it would be a contradiction in terms, not an oxymoron :P

I know what you mean though. Adequate in this sense doesn't necessarily mean "acceptable" - certainly not around these parts anyway :wink:

roadie
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 2:07 am
Location: Liverpool, UK

Post by roadie » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:19 am

I think I'll skip this round for the 40nm refresh. Gaming performance seems great, but I am happy with my 3870 at the moment.

I believe the voltage of the card is not being altered when idle, which results in the offensively high idle power consumption. I think a driver update, or at least a driver and BIOS update should be able to fix the issue, as a driver update was able to remove the stuttering I experienced with my 3870 in early driver sets. This was a result of Power Play changing modes when the card was under load.
I Customised Antec Solo I Antec NeoHE 550W I MSI P67A-GD65 I Intel i5 2500K @ 4.5Ghz I
I 8Gb Samsung @ 1866Mhz I Corsair Force GT 60Gb I Zotac GTX 670 I Dell SP2208WFP I Windows 8.1 x64 I

ryboto
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:06 pm
Location: New Hampshire, US
Contact:

Post by ryboto » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:44 am

Great review. Mike, I wonder if you considered testing the card with an aftermarket cooler? S1? HR-03GT? Passive testing would be great. Did you also consider attempting the BIOS mod?

one last question. If they do release an updated driver that "fixes" powerplay, will you retest? I'd be very interested to see the power figures.
[url=http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=userpage&teamnum=31574&username=rybot]F@H[/url]
[url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36172&highlight=][size=75]Oldest Setup[/url]
[url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48778]Old[/url]
i5-750 | TR AXP-140 | DFI MI P55-T36 | Lan-Gear mITX | HD5850 | Silverstone ST45SF[/size]

FartingBob
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:05 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by FartingBob » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:31 am

My 4850 arrived today, and rather than waste time testing out the stock cooler i threw my accelero straight on (with some new RAM heatsinks) and idle temps around the high 30's, with a 500rpm slipstream on. The stock cooler really isn't up to much, it does just enough to cool the card at stock speeds.
SPCRists can indeed still get fantastic performance without adding any noise. Horray!
I have no signature!

Lawrence Lee
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 1115
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:07 pm
Location: Vancouver

Post by Lawrence Lee » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:23 pm

ryboto wrote:Great review. Mike, I wonder if you considered testing the card with an aftermarket cooler? S1? HR-03GT? Passive testing would be great. Did you also consider attempting the BIOS mod?

one last question. If they do release an updated driver that "fixes" powerplay, will you retest? I'd be very interested to see the power figures.
I guess I'm Mike...

The card was actually purchased for my own personal use - the review was meant to be a one-off, since it's now sitting in my main rig at home. As such, I'm not going to risk completely killing it with a BIOS mod. If the power issue gets fixed with drivers I can share the before/after power figures as I do have an UPM power meter at home. We can extrapolate/guestimate what the difference would have been on the test rig in the lab.

I ended up putting a S1 on it (passive) and the temps are much improved. 50C idle and 65C load, IRC.

zoatebix
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:57 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by zoatebix » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:17 pm

I think I'm going the same route as Lawrence and Bob - I just got the Accelero S1 a few minutes ago and the card earlier today. Wish me luck!

ryboto
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:06 pm
Location: New Hampshire, US
Contact:

Post by ryboto » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:40 pm

Lawrence Lee wrote: I guess I'm Mike...

The card was actually purchased for my own personal use - the review was meant to be a one-off, since it's now sitting in my main rig at home. As such, I'm not going to risk completely killing it with a BIOS mod. If the power issue gets fixed with drivers I can share the before/after power figures as I do have an UPM power meter at home. We can extrapolate/guestimate what the difference would have been on the test rig in the lab.

I ended up putting a S1 on it (passive) and the temps are much improved. 50C idle and 65C load, IRC.
sorry, I just saw that Mike made the thread, silly me. Still, great review. Good to know the S1 can work passively with the card. Can you give us an idea of the airflow in the case when it was used passively?
[url=http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=userpage&teamnum=31574&username=rybot]F@H[/url]
[url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36172&highlight=][size=75]Oldest Setup[/url]
[url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48778]Old[/url]
i5-750 | TR AXP-140 | DFI MI P55-T36 | Lan-Gear mITX | HD5850 | Silverstone ST45SF[/size]

NeilBlanchard
Moderator
Posts: 7681
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
Contact:

Post by NeilBlanchard » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:20 pm

Great stuff!
blackworx wrote:You're right Neil it is seriously cringeworthy. But in reality it's not as bad as the usual 3D-rendered-scantily-clad-faux-medieval-fembot-in-miniskirt-showing-sideboob-clutching-giant-sword-to-cleavage teenage wank fantasy we're normally subjected to.
:lol:
Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

Lawrence Lee
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 1115
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:07 pm
Location: Vancouver

Post by Lawrence Lee » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:28 pm

ryboto wrote: Good to know the S1 can work passively with the card. Can you give us an idea of the airflow in the case when it was used passively?
Antec Solo, Seasonic S12II 500W, Yate Loon D12SL-12 @ 5V, Scythe 100mm @ 5V, one hard drive.

Tzupy
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1561
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:47 am
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Post by Tzupy » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:53 am

I wondered why the 4850 seems to be better cooled by the S1 than G92 nVidia products, despite it's relatively high power usage.
My guess is that the larger die area of the 4850 allows for better transfer of the heat through all 4 heatpipes.
Or, to put it in other terms, the heat / surface density is smaller than that of the G92 cards, making the 4850 GPU easier to cool.

zoatebix
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:57 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by zoatebix » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:48 am

I don't have any stick-on heatsinks on hand for the voltage regulation chips - will a quick trip to Microcenter do the trick?

Post Reply