Asus Eee PC Seashell 1005HA netbook

Want to talk about one of the articles in SPCR? Here's the forum for you.
DAve_M
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:58 am
Location: UK

Post by DAve_M » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:32 pm

rpsgc wrote:I mean, it consumes what, 10W?! That's just lazy engineering TBH. Really, a fan running all the time for a 10W device?
The 945GSE based atom platform has a total TDP of 11.8W (CPU + NB + SB). But some netbooks use the 945G, that alone can consume 22W.

And as for lazy engineering, did you know that my soldering iron is only rated for 18W and that reaches well over 200*C? The chipset inside a netbook will use less than 18W I expect, but that heat is trapped inside and it must be dissipated into the outside world some how othewise it will probably get a lot hotter than you may think.

For all I know, most users may like the fan. It stops the netbook from getting too hot and if it needs a fan it must be faster than a netbook that doesn't have a fan. :roll:

I'd love to see netbooks with an aluminium chassis. I bet you could dissipate a decent amount of heat and stay fanless. CULV should be no problem then.

rpsgc
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:59 am
Location: Portugal

Post by rpsgc » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:21 pm

I obviously must be seeing things then because I clearly see System (as in total) power consumption at 10W idle and 14W max load.

Image
Fractal Define R4 | Corsair AX750 | MSI Z97 Gaming 5 | Intel Core i7 4770K w/TRUE 120 Rev. C | 16GB G.Skill Sniper DDR3-1866 | Sapphire Nitro+ RX 480 8GB OC | Crucial m4 128GB + Crucial MX100 512GB + WD Blue 1TB + WD Red 4TB | JVC HA-RX900 | Dell U2312HM + BenQ G2400WD | Asus Echelon Mechanical Keyboard | Logitech G400s

DAve_M
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:58 am
Location: UK

Post by DAve_M » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:40 am

What is your point? I don't think the word total should apply to power consumption since it is watts which is energy used per second.

qviri
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Post by qviri » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:21 am

DAve_M wrote:What is your point? I don't think the word total should apply to power consumption since it is watts which is energy used per second.
I think the point is that for this netbook system, the grand total it has to be designed to dissipate is 16 W (14 W in power savings and hopefully quiet mode).

Bit far from 22 W.

Yes, in the absence of better (more expensive) passive dissipation techniques, it might need a fan, but it could perhaps be quieter considering how little it has to deal with compared to even full-blown laptops.
Thinkpad X200 – aging fan, T60p – Core Duo whine :(
Nothing endures but change

ATWindsor
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:53 pm

Post by ATWindsor » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:58 am

MikeC wrote:
ATWindsor wrote:Frankly i find 24 dBA at 0,6 meter to be pretty bad for a unit with such a minuscule power draw. It should be pretty easy to do better.
sigh... have you actually listened to what 24 dBA/0.6 sounds like? This is ~19 dBA/1m. Trust me, it's quiet.
Whats up with the attitude? Yes, I have on numerous occations listened to what 24 dBA can sound like. Just because people doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean thet have a lack of knowledge. 24 dBa at 0.6 meter is in fact slightly worse than my not particualry quiet thinkpad. And when you know how little power this machine draws, coupled with the fact that machines with similar power draw that runs fanless have been/are available, I am not very impressed.

AtW

RoGuE
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Post by RoGuE » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:53 am

qviri wrote:
DAve_M wrote:What is your point? I don't think the word total should apply to power consumption since it is watts which is energy used per second.
I think the point is that for this netbook system, the grand total it has to be designed to dissipate is 16 W (14 W in power savings and hopefully quiet mode).

Bit far from 22 W.

Yes, in the absence of better (more expensive) passive dissipation techniques, it might need a fan, but it could perhaps be quieter considering how little it has to deal with compared to even full-blown laptops.
In no way can you compare power consumption to the need for a fan or not without understanding in detail the design of this netbook. As a mechanical engineer with experience with defence electronics, I can testify that there is a reason the fan runs all the time.

There are many factors to consider. This is a netbook right? Therefore you want it to be as light as possible right? Well, if you dont have any mass to work with, you also don't have any thermal mass to work with (in the way of heatsinks). This means that the boards and chips have hotspots that, despite their meager power consumption, can and do overheat past their spec without airflow over them.

I can almost guarantee that engineers at asus chose lightweight and thin form factor over dead silence, and reasoned that having a small fan going (which is pretty freakin quiet) was better than having a considerably heavier and bulkier unit.

I'm going to have to side with Dave_M on this one.

qviri
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Post by qviri » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:34 am

Nothing in your testimony seems to contradict what we're saying. That this isn't engineered for silence or extreme quietness is exactly the point, and I can see why. I just wish it was; it wouldn't be particularly hard or add any overwhelming amount of weight or cost.
Thinkpad X200 – aging fan, T60p – Core Duo whine :(
Nothing endures but change

RoGuE
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Post by RoGuE » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:06 am

qviri wrote:Nothing in your testimony seems to contradict what we're saying. That this isn't engineered for silence or extreme quietness is exactly the point, and I can see why. I just wish it was; it wouldn't be particularly hard or add any overwhelming amount of weight or cost.
Seriously..?

the whole thing contradicts what people were saying about a fan-less design! I think you missed my entire argument, and that was that making the this notebook dead silent or fanless would involve making the unit heaver and making it a bigger form factor or "thicker" if you will.
qviri wrote:I just wish it was; it wouldn't be particularly hard or add any overwhelming amount of weight or cost.
And yes! yes it would be particularly hard and add weight and cost to make it fanless. Try designing an enclosure for electronics that is both thin and lightweight and then get back to me...

cloneman
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 9:48 am

Post by cloneman » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:38 am

I've drawn the line for notebooks/netbooks.

Any notebook who's fan comes on before 60C I have absolutely no interest in whatsoever. Gotta have standards :)
Of course, the absence of CPU whine is a given.
If dell can do it, so can everyone else can. No fan when I firefox. Period!

Having said... I might just snip the fan cables on an Asus and take my chances...
[size=75]P4 2.8 w/ Ninja - HIS Radeon 9800 Pro - Fortron Zen 300W fanless - BQE Case Fan @ 12V, Sflex @ 5V[/size]

ATWindsor
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:53 pm

Post by ATWindsor » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:27 pm

RoGuE wrote:
qviri wrote:Nothing in your testimony seems to contradict what we're saying. That this isn't engineered for silence or extreme quietness is exactly the point, and I can see why. I just wish it was; it wouldn't be particularly hard or add any overwhelming amount of weight or cost.
Seriously..?

the whole thing contradicts what people were saying about a fan-less design! I think you missed my entire argument, and that was that making the this notebook dead silent or fanless would involve making the unit heaver and making it a bigger form factor or "thicker" if you will.
qviri wrote:I just wish it was; it wouldn't be particularly hard or add any overwhelming amount of weight or cost.
And yes! yes it would be particularly hard and add weight and cost to make it fanless. Try designing an enclosure for electronics that is both thin and lightweight and then get back to me...
The dell mini 10 is fanless as far as i know , and of similar thickness and weight as the asus. The Dell x300 also was fanless in its time, en thinner and lighter than most competitors.

AtW

RoGuE
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Post by RoGuE » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:35 pm

older/different netbooks can't be compared to easily. Did you take into consideration that newer cpus and chipsets tend to get hotter in return for faster processing?
MikeC wrote:sigh... have you actually listened to what 24 dBA/0.6 sounds like? This is ~19 dBA/1m. Trust me, it's quiet.
I couldn't have said it any better myself.

DAve_M
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:58 am
Location: UK

Post by DAve_M » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:53 pm

You are forgetting that then Dell mini 10 uses different hardware. It's has a TDP of only 5W for CPU + NB + SB. That's well under 1/2 the power consumption of the usual atom based netbook.

The Dell mini 10v uses the standard netbook internals of a N270 + GMA950. Is the mini 10v fanless too? If it is, how do they do it? Anyone have some pics to show of the internals? I expect it uses a large but very thin heat spreader that runs over the components and underneath the keyboard.


qviri, you miss understood. 22W was the TDP of the NB in some netbooks. Not sure what ones but probably would be 1st or 2nd generation netbooks.

qviri
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Post by qviri » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:02 pm

RoGuE wrote:older/different netbooks can't be compared to easily. Did you take into consideration that newer cpus and chipsets tend to get hotter in return for faster processing?
The Dell Mini 10v, with choice of Atom N270 or N280 CPU and a 945GSE chipset (exact same as the 1005HA), configurable with a classic hard drive, is fanless. The 3-cell battery model is around 1.14 kg and slimmer if very slightly deeper than the 1005HA.

See review at http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/29 ... _mini_10v/ although they don't have pictures of the interior. There are a few of those here: http://www.blackmonktech.com/DellMini10v/ though you can't really see much.
Thinkpad X200 – aging fan, T60p – Core Duo whine :(
Nothing endures but change

sneaker
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:37 pm
Location: Australia

Post by sneaker » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:36 pm

I don't get it. Netbooks even more so than notebooks are meant to be used anywhere and everywhere, which means frequent handling and varied light conditions. But manufacturers are making them least suitable for their intended use - shiny surfaces that highlight every fingerprint and scratch, and mirror-like screens that reflect everything.

It doesn't appear based on consumer demand because, at least when it comes to the display, every poll I can find indicates a majority prefer matte. So what is driving this trend?

At least these disadvantages were pointed out several times in the SPCR review instead of being glossed over (haha).

cloneman
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 9:48 am

Post by cloneman » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:22 pm

Dell 10v, Dell 9, Dell 10, Dell 12 are all fanless, for those who were asking.
Atom Cpus have a TDP of 2~3W afaik, not sure about the northbridge.

The 160gb seagate on the 10v is also awesomely quiet, for the little while that I used it, I had to really try to hear it, and I'm very picky.

it can be replaced by any choice of awesome 2.5" hard disks or SSDs i think
[size=75]P4 2.8 w/ Ninja - HIS Radeon 9800 Pro - Fortron Zen 300W fanless - BQE Case Fan @ 12V, Sflex @ 5V[/size]

ATWindsor
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:53 pm

Post by ATWindsor » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:58 pm

RoGuE wrote:older/different netbooks can't be compared to easily. Did you take into consideration that newer cpus and chipsets tend to get hotter in return for faster processing?
MikeC wrote:sigh... have you actually listened to what 24 dBA/0.6 sounds like? This is ~19 dBA/1m. Trust me, it's quiet.
I couldn't have said it any better myself.
I find it hard to belive that the x300 uses less power than an atom-based notebook (at least on the CPU-side, it uses a pentium M 1.2 Ghz), the atom tends to use less power than older CPUs for netbooks, not more (if you don't go waay back).

Anyway tha asus doesn't have to be fanless either, but I am not really impressed by 24 dbA at 0.6 meter. If fanless isn't an option, at least a more quiet fan should be.

AtW

rpsgc
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:59 am
Location: Portugal

Post by rpsgc » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:48 pm

RoGuE wrote:Try designing an enclosure for electronics that is both thin and lightweight and then get back to me...
Thin? This is not thin.

Image


THIS is thin!

Image


It's an enclosure for electronics that is both thin and lightweight, yes, and now I am getting back to you. Well?

And it has a Core 2 Solo or a Core 2 Duo, not a puny underpowered Atom.
Fractal Define R4 | Corsair AX750 | MSI Z97 Gaming 5 | Intel Core i7 4770K w/TRUE 120 Rev. C | 16GB G.Skill Sniper DDR3-1866 | Sapphire Nitro+ RX 480 8GB OC | Crucial m4 128GB + Crucial MX100 512GB + WD Blue 1TB + WD Red 4TB | JVC HA-RX900 | Dell U2312HM + BenQ G2400WD | Asus Echelon Mechanical Keyboard | Logitech G400s

DAve_M
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:58 am
Location: UK

Post by DAve_M » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:45 am

Can you give the dimensions of those 2 laptops?

The one on the bottom looks thinner than it is for 2 reasons. 1) It has aggressively tapered edges at the sides, and 2) it's proportions are very different making the asus netbook looks chunky. Also, I bet the 2nd one is a lot louder under load (unless they managed to fit a large heatsink in there)


Going back to matt vs gloss. I guess every poll that shows peoples preference, does not include the general public that would be buying these things. I am assuming it is only tech sites that have these polls. People can be easily impressed by a shiny new machine in the shop I guess.

Imagine if everyone in the world buying a netbook went for the dell mini 10v simply because it was fanless. You can guarantee that every new netbook released will be fanless too. Same can be said if everyone bought matt displays...
Last edited by DAve_M on Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

RoGuE
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Post by RoGuE » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:46 am

rpsgc wrote:
It's an enclosure for electronics that is both thin and lightweight, yes, and now I am getting back to you. Well?

And it has a Core 2 Solo or a Core 2 Duo, not a puny underpowered Atom.
I was talking about a FANLESS enclosure. The laptop in your picture (unlabeled) most certainly has a centrifugal fan blowing over the cpu and gpu.

ATWindsor
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:53 pm

Post by ATWindsor » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:33 am

RoGuE wrote:
rpsgc wrote:
It's an enclosure for electronics that is both thin and lightweight, yes, and now I am getting back to you. Well?

And it has a Core 2 Solo or a Core 2 Duo, not a puny underpowered Atom.
I was talking about a FANLESS enclosure. The laptop in your picture (unlabeled) most certainly has a centrifugal fan blowing over the cpu and gpu.
How about the good old dell x1?

Image

Its a bit older, so the screen is thicker, but the enclosure itself is fanless and seems to the no thicker than the asus.

AtW

RoGuE
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Post by RoGuE » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:12 pm

Everywhere you can show me a fan-less design, I can show you reasons why. The fact remains that Asus weighed their options, and chose to include a fan to keep temperatures in check.

Comparing different net-books doesn't help your argument. Like I said earlier, different chip-sets, different mass and form factor requirements all require different cooling solutions. Do you think the engineers at Asus would include a fan if it could have been done with a small, very light heatsink? The fact is, this particular configuration meant forced air convection was necessary to keep temps in check (and comfortable on your lap I might add).

But I digress... have you actually heard what 24dB sounds like? I don't own this netbook, but I think i'll take Mikes word on it....its quiet.

MikeC
Site Admin
Posts: 12283
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Post by MikeC » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:36 pm

RoGuE, DAve_M, rpsgc, ATWindsor --

Please, let's just agree to disagree. I think both sides have made their valid points abundantly clear.

My assessment of the 1005HA was on its overall merits, not only noise, which I felt (and still do, having used it earlier this morn) is quiet enough even though it could be quieter.

My Lenovo Thinkpad x300, a high end corporate "road warrior" product that retailed originally for >$2000, is quieter. But it has an SSD, and its fan does go off/on periodically if it's used for more than 10 mins continuously. I wonder if the periodic off/on is more annoying than the somewhat louder but steady noise of the Asus. I'm not sure yet.

I think there's little doubt the fanless Atom netbooks run hotter -- they just have to if they are fanless. Whether that means shorter lifespan probably can't be known w/o tapping into product return stats over a long period of time. But it would surely be less comfortable for in lap use.
Mike Chin, SPCR Editor/Publisher
Support SPCR by buying your gear through this link: Amazon

ATWindsor
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:53 pm

Post by ATWindsor » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:08 pm

RoGuE wrote:Everywhere you can show me a fan-less design, I can show you reasons why. The fact remains that Asus weighed their options, and chose to include a fan to keep temperatures in check.

Comparing different net-books doesn't help your argument. Like I said earlier, different chip-sets, different mass and form factor requirements all require different cooling solutions. Do you think the engineers at Asus would include a fan if it could have been done with a small, very light heatsink? The fact is, this particular configuration meant forced air convection was necessary to keep temps in check (and comfortable on your lap I might add).

But I digress... have you actually heard what 24dB sounds like? I don't own this netbook, but I think i'll take Mikes word on it....its quiet.
Nobody is contradicting that aus weighed their options and chose to include a fan. However i think you are exaggerating the downsides of fanless, The way i read your posts i get the impression that you men a fnaless design would cause a pretty big penalty in thickness and weight. (considerably heavier and bulkier unit). There has been shown several fanless designs with the same type of internal components (dell 10v), or more power-hungry ones (dell x300 or x1). tha are fanless, and of similar thickness and weight.

I think the main reason for the design is that its easier and somewhat cheaper to have a unit with a fan, Asus probably felt they would make more money overall with a fan-based unit.

And as i said earlier, i have a good picture of what 24 db from a computer sounds like, i have measured several.

AtW

ATWindsor
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:53 pm

Post by ATWindsor » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:19 pm

MikeC wrote:RoGuE, DAve_M, rpsgc, ATWindsor --

Please, let's just agree to disagree. I think both sides have made their valid points abundantly clear.

My assessment of the 1005HA was on its overall merits, not only noise, which I felt (and still do, having used it earlier this morn) is quiet enough even though it could be quieter.

My Lenovo Thinkpad x300, a high end corporate "road warrior" product that retailed originally for >$2000, is quieter. But it has an SSD, and its fan does go off/on periodically if it's used for more than 10 mins continuously. I wonder if the periodic off/on is more annoying than the somewhat louder but steady noise of the Asus. I'm not sure yet.

I think there's little doubt the fanless Atom netbooks run hotter -- they just have to if they are fanless. Whether that means shorter lifespan probably can't be known w/o tapping into product return stats over a long period of time. But it would surely be less comfortable for in lap use.
I have no problem with disagreeing, a fanless (or less noisy fan) desgin has its pros and cons. However i think there is something to be learned from the discussion. Noise is a highly subjective quantity, some people care less about it, some people care more, one persons quiet is another persons loud. Personally i have a pretty low threshold for machinery noise i know can be engineered away, or at least reduced, but i don't get bothered by the noise of people on their way to a party or talking in the street, my girlfriend is the other way around.

The point is that I have every reason to belive that you find a 24 dBA notebook quiet, but i also know that I personally wouldn't find it very quiet. Maybe because of a combination between actual noise, and the fact that i know they can do better.

AtW

sneaker
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:37 pm
Location: Australia

Post by sneaker » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:25 pm

RoGuE wrote:The fact is, this particular configuration meant forced air convection was necessary to keep temps in check (and comfortable on your lap I might add).
I'd also be curious how the fanless netbooks perform in hotter temperatures. People in milder North American and European climates are often somewhat oblivious to the fact that 35-45C summer days are not uncommon in other highly populated, netbook-using parts of the world.

FartingBob
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:05 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by FartingBob » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:13 am

Well im typing this onmy new 1005HA Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee(!!!)PC. Very happy with it. The keyboard is fairly easy to adapt to for someone like me who has never used a small laptop keyboard before. The fan does run all the time, but as MikeC said its very quiet. When it ramps up you do notice it, but it only seems to do so when im doing something CPU taxing, i can use it to watch SD xvid videos or use the internet all day and it doesnt ramp up the fan. The underneath gets a bit warm quickly but all laptops do that, so isnt really a big issue.
It feels snappy and getting it up and running was as simple as slotting in the battery (which only came 40% charged) and turning it on. For some reason the driver disc (which i havent needed yet) for some reason came on a CD, which is a bit useless since the eeepc doesnt have a CD drive. A USB stick would have seemed a far better choice for any extra programs which came with it.
I have no signature!

MikeC
Site Admin
Posts: 12283
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Post by MikeC » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:46 am

http://cpp.in/dev/eeectl/ --

eeectl is a tiny yet powerful program for Asus EEE PC series, it runs on Windows® and allows you to control & overclock your EEE PC on the fly.
Current features:
- FSB speed control.
- PCIE speed control.
- CPU voltage control.
- Temperature monitor.
- Fan speed control(incl. used-defined automatic mode).
- Screen backlight control(twice brighter!).
- Highly configurable, hotkeys, etc.

It works, haven't experimented extensively, lowest fan speed is "30%".
Mike Chin, SPCR Editor/Publisher
Support SPCR by buying your gear through this link: Amazon

K.Murx
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:26 am
Location: Germany

Post by K.Murx » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:27 am

Regarding the power draw/fan issue: The old 900A (with SSD) draws 14W writing this, and 16W playing a flash video which shall qualify as "load" for the time being.
The fan is off completely unnoticeable @14W (but kicks in pretty loud later). This may serve as an example that it is possible to design a (almost) silent product in this power/size range.

Regarding the SSD issue: Who cares about the performance qualities of these things in a netbook? It is not like you would use them to run a database on, or do your photoshop work. My point was that they are more likely to stand up against mechanical abuse... Especially with users (kids ,students, ...) which are not as careful as MikeC ;)

DAve_M
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:58 am
Location: UK

Post by DAve_M » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:42 am

MikeC wrote:It works, haven't experimented extensively, lowest fan speed is "30%".
Is that lower than it runs out of the box?

tallphil
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:58 am
Location: UK

Too noisy for use as a bedside radio ??

Post by tallphil » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:22 am

Many thanks for this review and discussion. I am considering the 1005HA. Among many other uses, I want to use a netbook as a bedside Internet headphone radio.

I listen on headphones in the dead of night with my wife asleep beside me. She is intolerant of noise (for example, in a hotel room she will remove the batteries from the wall clock).

I do not know what 24 dBA/0.6 sounds like. But is it likely to be a problem? Should I be looking at the Dell fanless models instead?

Many thanks for any advice, Phil.

Post Reply