Another Wood Case - update: Temps

Show off your quiet rig.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

Post Reply
Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Another Wood Case - update: Temps

Post by Palindroman » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:25 am

I've been thinking about making a wood case for a long time now and finally decided to give it a go. I will post my proceedings here so people can have a look and advise me here and there (I haven't worked out a few things yet), but most of all: I want to have this done by the end of the month and posting it here will motivate me to work a bit quicker.

The reason I I'm doing this is that I'm currently selling low power desktops in the Netherlands and a wood PC case has all kinds of advantages: It makes my computers 'greener', I have a lot of trouble finding suitable SFF cases, almost all cases come with a redundant PSU (I use PicoPSU) which I have to sell afterwards (such as the EA-380 from the NSK3480), it could be a great way to promote my project, which is making energy efficiency a dominant factor in computer business. In short: I'm considering to sell wood PCs, but as there's a hell of a lot involved with that, I first want to build a prototype and see how that is.

For now I can say what the size of the prototype will be: 28,5 cm x 28,5 cm x 15,5 cm (11" x 11" x 6"). And this is the stuff I'll be using:

Image

I'll make an inner casing out of sheet metal (for RF radiation and backplate) first and post a picture when I'm done. After that comes the wood.

Wish me luck. :)
Last edited by Palindroman on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bluefront
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 5316
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:19 pm
Location: St Louis (county) Missouri USA

Post by Bluefront » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:36 am

If you're going to make an internal casing out of steel, and then apply an outer wood covering, just how is that going to be any "greener"? I guess for advertising purposes you could claim to be selling a "wood computer". :)

100% wood construction is possible, but difficult and much more costly to produce. As a specialty item with limited production....maybe. Frankly I don't see much profit in such a project.

And is that the extent of your tool collection for this project? If so you're in for a challenge for sure..... :?

regal196
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Post by regal196 » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:41 am

I would have to agree with Bluefront, making any case is time consuming. I made a wood case, it took a while to design and to produce and it is still not up to my standards. It takes a good workshop and know how to produce a good produce.

If you really want to make a wood case fast, use aluminum bar stock as framing and attach wood panels to the bar stock. If you are really concern about EM, take metal mesh and attach it to the inside.

-Pennell

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:20 am

From a manufacturing point of view, both of the above reply's are spot on, its just not easy or cost effective as it takes so long.

You might want to take a look around some home stores (places that sell home furnishing and shit like that, Ikea would be a good start), to see if there is anything thats already made, that is easy to modify.

Such as this, it might look like a small wall mounted cabinet, but....... It could also be a decent place to start, hinged lids/sides with a writing board might catch on :lol: its slightly bigger than you want, but its already made, all you need to do is modify it. And you get some bits of wood from the inside to re-use.

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/80034299

Now why didnt I think of doing that before :roll:


Andy

PS: Remember to check the inside dimensions.

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:13 pm

andyb wrote:From a manufacturing point of view, both of the above reply's are spot on, its just not easy or cost effective as it takes so long.
I know it isn't but I just want to see how long it takes me to build one. If I could make it in one day I would make about the same amount of money I do with my regular work (freelance translating from home). But first I have to see exactly how much work it is and if the result will be pleasing to the eye and mind. I'll see what happens. If it fails I'll have learned something.
You might want to take a look around some home stores (places that sell home furnishing and shit like that, Ikea would be a good start), to see if there is anything thats already made, that is easy to modify.

Now why didnt I think of doing that before :roll:
Okay, I'm closing this thread and run off to the patent office. :lol:

No seriously, I think that is a very good idea! Very good and very funny. People could hang their PC on the wall. If this project doesn't work out I will consider it.

On-topic:

Today I had my first experience with tin snips and sheet metal. It wasn't a big success as was to be expected. First I cut off a strip of 12 cm wide and 100 cm long, folded that and ended up with four sides of 25 cm each. So far, so good. After that I wanted to cut out an exact copy of the backside of a case (holes for I/O backplate and four bracket holes) but found out it's hard to cut out a hole with a cheap tin snip and no experience. I ended up cutting out two large rectangular chunks and will hopefully be able to cover up most of it with wood. And besides, it's the back of the case.

Image

After that I wanted to cut all the wooden sides out of a pinewood panel but as predicted by Bluefront I lacked the proper tools. It's hard to make straight cuts with a jigsaw. My neighbour is a furniture maker but he wasn't there, so I decided to go to the DIY store where I bought the panel and let them saw all the pieces out of the panel. The first guy actually did all of it wrong (4 millimeters missing on all sides) so I had to go back later this evening. The second guy got it right.

Image

The metal sheet should fit in there. The idea is that it'll hold the glued pieces of wood together with screws, meaning no screws on the outside.

This weekend I'll be finishing all the wood pieces with my jigsaw, and then fit and glue them together. After that it's the venting holes and then the most difficult thing of all: power buttons and audio/USB.

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:38 am

The wood parts are more or less finished (I'll do the lid later). I drilled some ventilation holes as well. This is not the best wood to work with. It chips easily and is already slightly bent, but it has a great feel and look.

Image

It's quite a narrow fit. I hope I'll get the mobo in when everything's done. :)

Image

Thinking about the buttons is giving me a headache but I think I have a solution: Drill a 12 mm hole through the wood front panel, put the button in with the wire going through the sheet metal behind it and then make a teeny weeny button of 5 mm thick with a 3 mm hole in it that's also 3 mm deep. I'm also going to a recycling dump tomorrow or the day after to see if I can get a hold of a nice panel with audio and USB on it.

So far, so good!

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:32 am

Made a few mistakes today and a lot of crappy pictures. Will post some flash-less ones tomorrow. I think the button idea will work and look good.

Here's the only picture that looks 'OK':

Image

I had everything except the front glued together yesterday evening and then found out the sheet metal inner casing was 2 mm too big. So I had to cut out a new one tonight and it went much better than the first the time (experience is a lovely thing). Now everything fits perfectly.

Tomorrow I'll do the buttons, audio/USB and then make a nice venting hole in the lid. If all goes well I can start staining the day after!

ronrem
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Santa Cruz

Post by ronrem » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:40 pm

I'd have done the wood first. Wood that's 1/2" x 6"...really isn't. Then the cuts have to allow for the thickness of the blade.

A circular saw cuts faster straighter. You C clamp a straight edge-or at least a straight piece of wood in place so the base of the saw follows it.

Metal window screening is a pretty good internal emi screen. A heavy stapler puts it in place...its easy to bend and shape. Alum L channel can do your corners-inside or out. I find the self threading Fastex screws nice for a power driver if you can find them short enough.

A BIG deal with a custom woodcase is you get to break away from the usual ATX layout.....I also like the look of stained varnished wood....built my computer/DAW workspace out of Oak scraps I'd salvaged over a few years of construction/demolition jobs. Wish I'd had a Radial Arm saw.
A custom case can have airflow qualities better than normal.

For a desktop/HTPC type case-for instance...I'd have a 250 mm fan mounted UNDER the mobo with a bit of spacing,the air would pass around the edges of the board---where I want it,deflected in places. I'd use a Ninja , or a Mini Ninja for a Sempron-Sparta? with the main air-out next to it..so most air exits at the CPU heatsink.

HDD? In an external eSATA case built to be cool-quiet and 6" away...

ronrem
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Santa Cruz

Post by ronrem » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:49 pm

If you plan to built a lot of these....do a couple of great designs..build prototypes....then get some good woodworking gear,like a radial arm saw or table saw and probably a router.

Hunt around for some good "Parts" like switches,a panel-like you mentioned-for USB etc,sheetmetal or? for mounting your switch.

If there's a place where old Puters get scrapped--see if you can get old cases to scavange the rear, PCI slots. With a metal cutting blade on a circular saw you can part out old cases easy. Wear goggles..lotsa sparks.

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:32 pm

Thanks for the great pieces of advice, ronrem! I've got some great news in relation to that. Earlier in the thread I briefly mentioned my next door neighbor who is a furniture maker/carpenter. This morning I went over to him to borrow some tools as I was screwing things up mildly. When he saw my prototype he chuckled a bit of course, but after that he actually was insulted by the fact that I didn't ask him to do it. I felt embarassed asking him as he's a real professional, he renovates 15th century church pews and stuff like that. But it turns out he's very enthusiastic and has offered to build me a prototype out of real good material with the top class tools he has in his workshop (ronrem mentioned a few). I guess I'm a very lucky man. And he's my neighbor so if I get to work with him I don't have to use my car. ;)

Anyway, I did get to finish my protoype today and here are the pics:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


The hardware in this prototype:

Asrock NF7G-HDReady
AMD Athlon 3500+ (Lima-core, 45W)
PicoPSU
1024 MB 533 Mhz RAM
Samsung 60 GB 2.5" drive

The entire setup consumes between 17 and 18 watts at idle (my record). For the next prototype I'll be using a Gigabyte board however as I don't trust the quality of Asrock boards, although I do have to test it first (GA-M68SM-S2).


I posted a lot of pictures cause I'm sure there's a lot to improve. Like the venting holes on the side. Are they big enough or too small? Maybe they're redundant as the system should be very cool? I will test temperatures with this prototype somewhere this weekend. I also have to think of a way of attaching the notebook drive to the lid. I thought up something involving rubber mats: Attach the drive to a rubber mat, put another, bigger, rubber mat over that and attach that to the lid or the side. I'm quite happy with the buttons though I'll have to think of something else for the new prototype. I've given up on the idea of a USB/audio/(firewire)-panel in the front for the moment cause you just don't find that in a scrapyard and I don't know where to order it. But if anyone has any idea how I can solve that problem I'd be most grateful.

Right now I'm interested mostly in ventilation and airflow, so shoot and thanks in advance!

jaganath
Posts: 5085
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Location: UK

Post by jaganath » Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:42 am

The hardware in this prototype:

Asrock NF7G-HDReady
AMD Athlon 3500+ (Lima-core, 45W)
PicoPSU
1024 MB 533 Mhz RAM
Samsung 60 GB 2.5" drive

The entire setup consumes between 17 and 18 watts at idle (my record).
is that with or without undervolting (BIOS/RMClock)?

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:50 am

jaganath wrote:
is that with or without undervolting (BIOS/RMClock)?
That's with RMClock undervolting. People have obtained similar results with this board, and the Abit AN-M2 boards are also very efficient. I will test the Gigabyte board I mentioned, compare it to its Geforce 6100-predecessor and then report. But I think it won't be as efficient as the Asrock or Abit. 2-3 watts less efficient to be precise, but we'll see.

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:12 am

I had some time to test the temperatures in my wood prototype today. As could be seen on the pictures above, I have one large venting hole of 8 cm across above the CPU, on both sides there's two small 3 cm venting holes, and the PCI brackets in the back also let some air through. I tried a few different things to see what would happen and I compared the results to a fanless system in a NSK3480. Temps are measured by Speedfan.

Image

Ambient temperature for the NSK3480 was 21 degrees C, and for the Wood PC 20.5 degrees C. Oh, and without a dvd-burner power consumption went to 17.7 watts. :)

I recently received a beta BIOS update from Asrock with which you can put the CPU-fan at 10%, which by the way is still too loud for my taste (1250 rpm). Especially considering the fact that the CPU in the NSK3480 setup didn't get much warmer than 41 degrees at idle. If it's not too warm in a room it'll take quite a while for the CPU fan to spin up in an idling system, and even then it spins up to 'only' 700 rpm in the NSK3480 system. When I disconnected the fan it took a very long time for the CPU to reach 48 degrees. I think it would eventually reach more than 55 degrees after a few hours.

When I closed off the side vents and the PCI brackets at the back the system hardly got warmer. Does this mean the side vents are redundant? I put them there for the chipset and PicoPSU. Perhaps I could just make some venting holes at the back and that would be enough? It would make building the case a tad easier.

I really don't know much about airflow and if it's that important in a budget system such as this one. Anyone have any suggestions before I go make another prototype on Friday?
Last edited by Palindroman on Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

andyb
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 3307
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Essex, England

Post by andyb » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:46 pm

Well done Neven, I havent yet had a chance to read it all or look at all the pictures, but that wooden case looks nice and its cooling is very good with no fan, so you should be fine with a much slower and quieter fan/speed than the loud 1250rpm you tested with.

No wonder the system stays so cool with no fan or ventilation, it barely uses any power at all ~18W at idle.

I wouldnt mind knowing those same temps that you have measured running the CPU at 100%, and also playing HD video content.

On my system (in Sig) 50-65% @ 1,800MHz playing the following using "Media Player Classic":

Video: MPEG4 Video (H264) 1280x720 23.98fps [Video]
Audio: Dolby AC3 48000Hz 6ch [Audio]

42mins, 1099MB, thats 0.4361 MB/s total throughput.

Surely 640K or RAM is all that we will ever need (HAHA, and slightly misquoting), at 436KB per second, you wouldnt think it would take so much CPU usage to deliver the brilliant pictures and excelent sound. This might be due to my setup, or my refusal to use any media player made by Microshaft, I cant say for sure.


Andy

ronrem
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Santa Cruz

Post by ronrem » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:33 pm

I'd suggest putting feet on the case (rubber tipped) or a bottom chamber open to the rear- and have a fan,120 mm and 500 rpm,in the floor. Then you don't need the side hole. Furthur...using a Ninja on a Lima or Sparta single core 65nm may let you run the CPU cooler fanless. Noise from the fan/HDD won't have quite as direcy path to your ears. If 500 RPM is not enough...then try a little higher. I think you can do it at 800 rpm or less.

If you intend to turn this into a product...you should experiment further with this case,find the ideal cooling strategy so when you take the next step,in the woodshop-you have the layout and the hardware right and its just a matter of efficiently being able to make them in quantity and make them look good.

Look into small wood half round moldings for trim. That can give the front a more finished look. I've done the CD tray doors with them.

I'm partial to "Man-O-War" Spar varnish. I don't know if it's sold in Europe but it goes on easy and is very rugged.

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:46 am

ronrem wrote:I'd suggest putting feet on the case (rubber tipped) or a bottom chamber open to the rear- and have a fan,120 mm and 500 rpm,in the floor. Then you don't need the side hole. Furthur...using a Ninja on a Lima or Sparta single core 65nm may let you run the CPU cooler fanless. Noise from the fan/HDD won't have quite as direcy path to your ears. If 500 RPM is not enough...then try a little higher. I think you can do it at 800 rpm or less.
These are great ideas, and if I remember correctly Bluefront did stuff like this with his Rubbermaid-build. But the thing is I have to keep the design as simple and cheap as possible, so building bottom chambers etc is off limits (for now). As for the fanless part: A mini Ninja won't fit unless I make the case bigger (actually I think it's big enough as it is and am contemplating a low-profile build next), and anyway the setup will be more or less fanless. You see, I'll be using a Gigabyte board which has a tool called EasyTune with which you can turn off the CPU fan completely. It ramps up when needed.
Look into small wood half round moldings for trim. That can give the front a more finished look. I've done the CD tray doors with them.

I'm partial to "Man-O-War" Spar varnish. I don't know if it's sold in Europe but it goes on easy and is very rugged.
Good idea about the moldings. For now I think we'll make the edges rounded. As for the paint: I'll be using a transparent stain that is completely natural. You can actually throw it in the sink and it won't kill any fish somewhere as it's 100% biodegradable. It comes in different colours which people can pick out themselves.
I've given up on the idea of a USB/audio/(firewire)-panel in the front for the moment cause you just don't find that in a scrapyard and I don't know where to order it.
Okay, I found something from SilverStone: the FP-32 3.5" I/O front module.

Image

Now I have to think about incorporating that into the design. I have some ideas but I'll come back on that one. I think I'll combine it with a pair of Sata power and data cables coming out of the case somewhere which can be used for plugging a dvd-writer when needed. I have also figured out a way to suspend the hard drive. If that works out it'll be highly original, I suspect. ;)

Right now I'm testing the system under Orthos. After 1.5 hours the CPU is at 56 degrees. The fan is running at 1300 rpm. I will probably report on this later today.

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:00 am

I updated the temps with stress tests (Orthos). After 1.5 hours of an undervolted stress test the temperatures more or less stabilize, 57 degrees for the CPU. When not undervolted the system heats up quicker, all the way up to 63 degrees for the CPU. Which is quite high, I believe. On the other hand, who will be stressing his budget pc for such a long time? I have definitely chosen for the Sempron setup, so I will test that thoroughly when my neighbor finishes building the second prototype. That looks quite good for now. The wood is 12 mm thick, which means more than 1 cm off on all sides. It will be a very light case.


I have also thought up a solution for suspending the notebook drive. Perhaps this has already been done on the SPCR-forum, but here's what I did. I bought this isolation material for heating pipes:

Image

I cut a piece off the length of the drive, cut that in half and attached both pieces to the sides of the drive:

Image

There's a plenty of spacer left to drive screws through and attach the suspended drive to the wooden lid:

Image

I haven't decided where to put the drive in relation to the board over which it hovers at about 9 cm. Would it matter if I suspended it above the chipset or PicoPSU, or isn't that a wise thing to do considering the heat?

Palindroman
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 am

Post by Palindroman » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:19 pm

Okay, I'm back!


I finished the prototype my neighbor built. There are still a few problems to be sorted out, but all in all I'm quite content. I think I'm going to go through with it and bring it to the market (if only to gain attention for sustainability in ICT). Here are a few pics:

Image

Image

Image

I'll be busy writing press reports and getting this known but I'll write here about temps and other stuff that might be interesting for people who want to do a similar thing.

PASware
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:34 pm

Post by PASware » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:46 pm

Impressive Power consumption :)

First post for me on this forum :D :roll:

Post Reply