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LongJan
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Location: Sweden

Sweet Little Computer, upgraded with 8800GT

Post by LongJan » Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:08 pm

This is my first post. However, I have been a regular reader for several years. Most of my knowledge about silent computers comes from these pages.

I started this build, not because I needed a new computer, but because I needed something fun to do, as I retired from work a few months ago. Having a lot of time to spare, I didn't want it to be all that easy. Therefore I decided to build something slightly different. Perhaps, a little bit to the contrary of what is typical around here. If I got it all wrong, I could start all over again.

Some initial thoughts:
  • No doubt, Antec P182 and Solo are both very nice cases, but why not try something else, for a change?
  • Shouldn't a mATX case be of sufficient size, for a General Purpose PC?
  • Don't use a big heavy CPU-cooler, but a medium sized one, with secure mounting (I don't like pushpins).
  • Instead of minimizing the number, try if many slow spinning fans can work together, silent enough.
  • Mount a quiet sleeve bearing fan in the PSU (yes I know, horizontal) and feed it from my own fan control.
  • Let the airflow go the 'wrong' way around. Back intake and front exhaust, giving the PSU some fresh air and hopefully keep most of VGA and CPU heat away from it.
  • It must be dustproof. I do not want it filled up with dust in a few months.
Components:
- Silverstone Temjin TJ08
- Asus P5K-VM mATX Intel G33 chipset
- Intel Core 2 Duo E4400
- Noctua NH-U9F with Noctua 92mm fan (*)
- Corsair HX520 with Noctua NF-S12-1200 120mm fan (*)
- Corsair TWIN2X PC2-6400 (4096 MB)
- Asus Geforce 8600GT with Zalman VF900-Cu (hardwired to 5V)
- Hitachi Travelstar 160GB SATA 2.5"
- NEC AD-7170S SATA
- Nexus 120mm Real Silent - back intake (*)
- Nexus 120mm Real Silent - front exhaust (*)
- Akasa AK-FC-03 fan control

(*) connected to fan controller



For the full story and more pictures, please visit my HomePage:
Building a Pretty Little Computer



Image
Yes, I know, no cables are supposed to be seen in pictures like this, but there isn't too many places
to hide them in this small case. Especially not, since I removed the drive cage. Besides, I don't think
it's that important to hide cables that don't obstruct airflow.


Image
Of course, pretty or not, is a matter of opinion. Noisy picture, because it's impossible to prevent this
automatic camera from turning up ISO-value in weak light.


Image
The Noctua mounted in the PSU. The wire marked F comes from the fan, the one marked C comes from
the fancontrol. If you put them together the PSU will control the fan as it is supposed to do. However,
I intend to feed it from the Akasa fancontrol. Only the the future can tell how long this fan will last in
this environment.

More about this PSU and whining ADDA fan
Thank you, for reading my limping English...
Last edited by LongJan on Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sheninat0r
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Post by sheninat0r » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:06 pm

That's a nice build, congrats.

How did you get the Noctua into your PSU?

djkest
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Post by djkest » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:32 pm

Many power supplies use standard size fans. A fan swap may be as simple as popping off the cover, removing the stock fan, and replacing it. Now of course, you have to be careful not to shock yourself silly. :p

Techno Pride
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Post by Techno Pride » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:54 pm

Hiya,

how is the Z4? Did you have the chance to compare it with other speakers?

many thanks.

LongJan
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Location: Sweden

Post by LongJan » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:50 pm

Hi!

sheniatOr
As djkest says, swapping the fan is very simple. The hard thing is to know what to put in there. I am not quite sure about the Noctua. It works fine so far. Silent and sufficient cooling at 5V for my low power system. However, I wouldn't recommend it for high power systems, let's say max 200W.

And you can raise questions about longterm stability in that evironment. A Scythe S-FLEX is perhaps a more secure choice. I used one of them in a Seasonic S12, connected to PSU fan control. It has been running for a year now. Still, by far, more silent than original ADDA.

djkest
I think that risk for shock is a bit exaggerated:
- I was measuring around with a mulitimeter and couldn't find a tiny volt anywhere.
- If I don't remember wrong, the main capacitor was marked 500 uF, and that can't store much current.
- There is a light-emitting diode, always shining on my motherboard, but it goes out in a couple of seconds, if you switch the PSU of, so at least that circuit is out of current.

Techno Pride
The Z4 is fine, but I don't listen much to music. Bought it mainly because it's dead silent. :?
My old cheap speakers were buzzing more than the computer.

Moogles
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Post by Moogles » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:49 am

I like it!

But then again, I have nearly the same computer (TJ08 with HX520, Nexus fans and notebook drives). Mine is black though.

I see you encountered the same problem of mounting a harddrive in the TJ08. Since I move my case around every once in a while I couldn't simply let it rest on foam or rubber blocks on the bottom of my case which is by far the most silent option. I'm forced to use the standard drive cage (although the notebook drives are enclosed in 2.5" Scythe Quiet Drives) but due to the lightweight nature of the case I can hear them during intense seek operation.

Why did you end up going for the TJ08, and not Silverstone's latest SG03 which doesn't have the lame harddrive mounting conundrum?

Shobai
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Location: Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia

Post by Shobai » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:06 pm

well, regardless of what volts you didn't see anywhere - volts don't kill you. have a look around the net for "how much current can kill me" or something - you will find that it is an insanely small amount!! it all depends on how you touch things, and where the current flows. as for 500µF caps, check the voltage rating they have on them before writing them off - the more stored charge they have they bigger they'll hit you =]

personally, i would have toned down some of the specs you've used [iem the PSU, unless that thing is insanely quiet and efficient at the small load you're putting on it] and potentially even blocked off the rear case fan opening and ducted the PSU exhaust through the cpu. then, relying on incoming air through your expansion slots for the GPU, you'd be good to go.

LongJan
Posts: 163
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Location: Sweden

Post by LongJan » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:28 pm

I did consider the SG03 very much. It's a very nice case. In a way, divided into three separate temperature zones.
  1. For the PSU taking fresh air directly from side vent, blowing it out back.
  2. Upper zone for CPU, cooled by upper front intake fan.
  3. Lower zone for VGA, cooled by lower front intake fan.
Or perhaps, with positive air pressure build up by two intake fans, let some air escape through a passively cooled PSU (eg Fortron Zen).

However, I chickened out of these reasons:
  • The only after market CPU-coolers that fits below the PSU, is Zalman flower models and they aren't very quiet. Of course, Silverstones own NT06 also fits, but then, all heat from the CPU have to go into the PSU.
  • Very crowded in there, with PSU and CPU-heatsink in place. Can you even get a hand in to route the cables?
About the harddrive mounting.
I never planned to use the drive cage. Don't move the case around much, but the shoestring holds the drive in place pretty well. I can lay the case down on it's side without any problem. I don't think I have heard any seek operations.

LongJan
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Location: Sweden

Post by LongJan » Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:20 pm

Shobai
Definitely, it's current that kills you, but current needs volts to get around (Ohms law).

Being an old man, I must admit, that I don't know much about modern power supplies, but isn't still the cap sitting on the low voltage side of the transformer? The rating doesn't tell you more than how much the cap can take.

I still doubt that 500uF can keep enough current to kill you at any voltage. However, I wouldn't take any risks. Fortunately, that's not needed for a fan swap. Don't touch anything else but the fan connector and use only one hand.

I know that I am heavily overpowered, but I wanted detachable cables and the price was not too bad.

Shobai
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Location: Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia

Post by Shobai » Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:13 am

Larfs, you're exactly right - the ratings only give you a clue as to what's going on in circuit, but even that clue is handy :) . because the caps sit [like you quite correctly point out] on the low voltage side of the fairly high efficiency supplies, they are subject to lower voltages but higher currents [hence the efficency :D ]. that's why leakage resistors are put in circuit, to drain off the stored charge when the power's off and make it safer to work.

i think your advice is great - if you're mucking around inside a PSU and you're worried, just use one hand. if you haven't supplied power to the beast in the last few days, you might be ok.

larfs, i'd have gone the other way and said that current requires a resistance to generate a voltage, but it's all the same :lol:.

after all that, i fully understand your reasoning with picking up your supply. in fact, that's pretty much the reason i went with mine [see updated sig] - modularity, price and air path for me. i was actually going for the 430W, but the shop had no stock the week i ordered. oh wells!

tonschk
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Post by tonschk » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:02 am

LongJan , why you computer have the direction of Airflow back to front ,I think must be the opposite " front to back" , are the three fans pushing the Airflow to the same direction ?

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:22 pm

Since I have a slow spinning fan in the powersupply, I tried to keep as much hot air as possible away from it. With this setup, the coolest spot in the case is around the PSU intake. Almost all hot air from VGA and some from CPU is exhausted by the front fan.

As a bonus I got a very cool VGA card thanks to the airflow across it (from side intake and open PCI slots to front exhaust).

Image
Blue arrows shows cold air, red warm. The three yellow/red spots represents temperature sensors and the numbers the temperatures they report under load (all fans at 5V, ambient 23C).

_MarcoM_
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Post by _MarcoM_ » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:46 pm

Very nice job. I like it, really, you have given me some ideas for my P150 build :)

SHare
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Post by SHare » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:15 pm

I bet it'll be cooler if you reverse the fans. Heat rises so there is little chance that exhaust fan is doing all that much exhausting, most likely is that you are cooking you dvd drive and the heat is just escaping through the upper front of the chassis. I could be wrong though.

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:08 pm

--- MarcoM
Thanks for the kind words.

--- SHare
I can assure you that plenty of hot air is escaping through the front fan. I sometimes use it to warm my cold feets. I don't think any air is escaping through the upper front, since air pressure in the case is negative.

But you are right, there is not much airflow in that corner. However, the case feels quite cool to the touch, up there, it's much warmer down at the exhaust. I am afraid, reversing the fans, will result in hotter VGA and hotter PSU intake.

Igelkott
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Post by Igelkott » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:57 am

Does the Noctua S12 1200 work well in the HX520?

My calculations tell me that the noctua 1200rpm should max out (11v) and still do the job fine at aprox 300w usage. It probably wont spin slower then 900 rpm at anytime.
A Scythe SFF21E would work about the same at 300w but be stalled until the psu heats up a lot - no good idea.

But thats calculations - does anyone know for sure?

SHare
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Post by SHare » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:06 am

LongJan wrote: --- SHare
I can assure you that plenty of hot air is escaping through the front fan. I sometimes use it to warm my cold feets. I don't think any air is escaping through the upper front, since air pressure in the case is negative.

But you are right, there is not much airflow in that corner. However, the case feels quite cool to the touch, up there, it's much warmer down at the exhaust. I am afraid, reversing the fans, will result in hotter VGA and hotter PSU intake.
Interesting, I might do some messing around with airflow in my P182, maybe positive pressure being pushed in from the top and rear.

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:10 am

--- Igelkott (Hedgehog). I guess you are from Sweden, why keep it a secret?

It works fine in my case, but I never use 300W. Probably no more than 100-150W. At that load and an intake temp of 28C, the PSU fan control never puts out more than 3.8V.

Don't expect silence with the Noctua running above 900 rpm. At 1200 rpm, in that environment, it becomes rather noisy. I doubt it's meaningful to swap fan if your system routinely pulls over 250W.

Bluefront
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Post by Bluefront » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:09 pm

LongJan.....unless I'm mistaken, a sleeve bearing fan should be longer-lived if it is mounted vertical, at least from what I understand. I've never experienced a 120mm fan failure however, no matter how it was mounted.

Ball bearings are supposed to handle higher temperatures better.....hence their use in power supplies.

walle
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Post by walle » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:14 pm

Delete please, thank you in advance.

Igelkott
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Post by Igelkott » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:30 pm

LongJan wrote:--- Igelkott (Hedgehog). I guess you are from Sweden, why keep it a secret?
Sweden yes :D
LongJan wrote:It works fine in my case, but I never use 300W. Probably no more than 100-150W. At that load and an intake temp of 28C, the PSU fan control never puts out more than 3.8V.

Don't expect silence with the Noctua running above 900 rpm. At 1200 rpm, in that environment, it becomes rather noisy. I doubt it's meaningful to swap fan if your system routinely pulls over 250W.
I see. Thanks. You're probably right about it not beeing meaningful, since I can't make sure the hot air stays away from the psu as you have, and also I will use the G35 chipset.

Are you undervolting your E4400 anything?

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:27 pm

No, it's cool enough anyway.

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:04 am

Updated CPU-temperatures:
Idle - 40C
Load - 56C

I wasn't aware that SpeedFan reported 15C too low values for the on-core thermal sensors. Perhaps, this new values seem a bit high, but then you must keep in mind, that they come from core sensors, not from some simple thermal diode on the motherboard and that they are related to tJunctionMax, which is 100C for this processor, so it's still pretty cool.

Solid Snake
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Post by Solid Snake » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:17 am

djkest
I think that risk for shock is a bit exaggerated:
- I was measuring around with a mulitimeter and couldn't find a tiny volt anywhere.
- If I don't remember wrong, the main capacitor was marked 500 uF, and that can't store much current.
- There is a light-emitting diode, always shining on my motherboard, but it goes out in a couple of seconds, if you switch the PSU of, so at least that circuit is out of current.
Whether you'll find any voltage in a supply when you yank it depends on its design and how it was last powered down. Don't assume that just because you couldn't find any voltage, that none will be present in another supply.

It takes very little current to kill you, and at 160v, 500uf will do the job several times over.

Live heatsinks are not unusual either.

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:25 pm

Solid Snake wrote:It takes very little current to kill you, and at 160v, 500uf will do the job several times over.
This is a bit complicated, finally I have done some research:

-AC passes through a cap, DC is stopped and charges the cap.
-1 Farad cap, loaded with 1V, can discharge 1A for 1 second.
-AC is about twice as dangerous as DC.
-10mA is perfectly safe, 50mA AC or 100mA DC that goes through your heart (one hand to another), will probably kill you.
-Current running between two fingers on the same hand, can hurt your fingers, but not kill you.
-Resistance through the human body is ~3 kOhm (with wet fingers, more if dry).

Now we can use Ohms law (I=U/R) for some calculations:
24V / 3000 Ohm = 8 mA - no harm done :D
220V / 3000 Ohm = 73 mA - very dangerous, specially if AC (but caps can't store AC) :shock:
220V / 10000 Ohm = 22mA - keep your hands very dry or use gloves and you will live longer :roll:

The big question is, how many DC-volts can it be over these caps?
Last edited by LongJan on Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:21 pm

Upgraded with XFX 8800GT + Accelero S2 + Noctua 120mm.

Temperatures and noise almost unaffected.

oxygen200000
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Post by oxygen200000 » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:39 am

It would have been better if you had used S1 instead of S2... 4HP (S1) instead of only 2HP (S2), means more cooling power...

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:49 pm

As said in that link:
1. Couldn't find S1 in stock anywhere.
2. More space with S2, in my mATX case, especially around SATA-ports.
3. Never mind how many heatpipes, as long it's cool enough. Now I am playing World in Conflict with 61C GPU-temp. Had it been more fun to play at 55C?

Copyright
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Post by Copyright » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:30 pm

I had been looking for this post for a while... I assume a 1200 rpm fan is ideal for the PSU replacement? I am about to do the same to my Corsair 550VX with a Scythe S-flex 1200rpm fan. Think this will be ok?

LongJan
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Post by LongJan » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:56 pm

Yes, I am sure it will. I used that fan in my previous build, in a Seasonic 430W. Much more quiet than original ADDA, when controlled by the PSU. Of course, that was a low power system, so the fan never ramped up.

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