Silent Grizwald

Show off your quiet rig.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

CA_Steve
Moderator
Posts: 7471
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:19 am

To all participants: Please dial down the combativeness and dial up the civility. Posting rules.

Nec_V20
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by Nec_V20 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:27 pm

edh wrote:
Nec_V20 wrote:There is a difference between arrogance and being right.
:lol: I suppose next you're going to tell us that you're also the most attractive person on this forum and that you're also the world's greatest lover...

Your system:
idle: 28C at 460rpm
load: 61C at 800rpm

My system:
idle: 26C at 300rpm
load: 52C at 500rpm

No problem with VRM temps, they're mid thirties max.

OK, the CPU TDP is 30W higher but that doesn't go all the way to explain it. Basically your cooling setup is wasting the airflow generated by the front fan as it doesn't pass directly through any components.

By a big tower cooler I meant one with a 120mm fan like the Ninja 4 that I have. You should try it rather than comparing with a 92mm tower cooler. Actually tell you what, just for giggles and as money is no object to you to have a spare computer, why not buy a Metis and a Ninja 4, rebuild your system in it properly and compare?

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a new Colm!
Hell no, I have a face made for radio. Back in the day I was young and handsome, now I'm just "and". There was a day when someone would come up to me and ask, "Have you got a match", I would reply, "Not since Errol Flynn died".

With regard you your claim of not having temp problems with regard to VRMs or Caps, how would you know? You said yourself in your post that you couldn't monitor system temps under Linux (maybe you can now) and I would have installed Windows where I could have.

If you took a couple of minutes to think instead of whatever you do in that process's lieu then the answer would be obvious.

At some point the penny will drop. You even mentioned it in your post that you linked to.

Suffice it to say though that the cooler ambient air is going in and the much warmer air from the case is coming out, and it is silent in the process.

This one is another classic:
Basically your cooling setup is wasting the airflow generated by the front fan as it doesn't pass directly through any components.
This is on a par with Adaptec back in the day when they offered "Hardware Downloads" on their website.

Aside from the radiator, which is having air "pass directly through", I don't generally have any other hardware in the system which could be considered porous aside from the PSU to an extent. The air generally flows around the components, both those in the top half of the case and those in the bottom half of the case.

I apologise to you if English isn't your native language, my first language is German.

I compared the NH-U9S, with the NH-L12 that I have and that's the only comparison I made. I was considering a Corsair H100i AIO, or the H60 AIO I have spare, for cooling the CPU but that would have meant noise.

It would never, in a month of Sundays, have occurred to me nor, now that you mention it would I envisage, bunging a cooler like the Ninja 4 onto the CPU in my system. Putting a Ninja 4 into the Raijintek Metis wouldn't instil me with any confidence with regard to the longevity of any system in there - just because you can do it doesn't mean you should, I consider it to be a dumb idea.

Aside from that I really just don't like the case - the fact that it is aluminium is a deal-breaker for me for reasons I have stated before. I don't like the very limited expandability with regard to drives. I also don't like the foutery involved in building in such a case, which is not skookum - after a few decades the bashing to fit nature of computer builds just loses its lustre; been there, done it, not interested (one time that comes to mind is over three decades ago when I had to use a hacksaw to a case to fit and affix an HD with string and then had to cut matchsticks to get the RAM to fit for my cheapskate dumpster-diving friend; fair enough the computer ran for about three years).

I have the spare computer I do, because it interested me to build it and I have a number of uses for it, not the least of which is using it as an OS test platform, media server should I be OTG, a client should I decide to convert my main machine into a corporate network (including individual DNS, E-Mail, SQL/Oracle, NAT servers and a DMZ) which I have done in the past. It's a backup machine should the main one go down for any reason of course and it is no problem bunging 0.016 PB of the 0.026 PB (which I will be upgrading to at least 0.04 PB this year) of storage I have in my main machine into it - although then it would be noisy.

So there are other things that I would do for giggles - actually nearly anything else - before I would consider replicating your Frankenbuild.
Last edited by Nec_V20 on Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Nec_V20
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by Nec_V20 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:30 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
edh wrote: :lol: I suppose next you're going to tell us that you're also the most attractive person on this forum and that you're also the world's greatest lover...

Okay, fellas, put the rulers away... seriously, don't play down at his level, edh (I guess you'd have hard times to best his patology).

Moreover you have different ambient and different noise level (that rig sports some moving parts more than your one, and he didn't declared how fast the 200mm fan is actually spinning).
DOH! Actually I did state how fast the 200mm fan was spinning.

And it is "pathology" not "patology".

quest_for_silence
Posts: 5275
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Location: ITALY

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:57 pm

Nec_V20 wrote:I apologise to you if English isn't your native language, my first language is German.

I guess perhaps you missed the previous moderator's warning: *Please dial down the combativeness and dial up the civility*.
As far as I know it wasn't of little account, so be careful.

Nec_V20 wrote:DOH! Actually I did state how fast the 200mm fan was spinning.

In the somehow obscure walls of text you used to write in this thread, I didn't get it: would you mind to make an abstract of the different scenarios?

Nec_V20 wrote:And it is "pathology" not "patology".

I stand corrected (grammatically), though probably that won't make any (practical) difference.

Nec_V20
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by Nec_V20 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:50 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
Nec_V20 wrote:I apologise to you if English isn't your native language, my first language is German.

I guess perhaps you missed the previous moderator's warning: *Please dial down the combativeness and dial up the civility*.
As far as I know it wasn't of little account, so be careful.

Nec_V20 wrote:DOH! Actually I did state how fast the 200mm fan was spinning.

In the somehow obscure walls of text you used to write in this thread, I didn't get it: would you mind to make an abstract of the different scenarios?

Nec_V20 wrote:And it is "pathology" not "patology".

I stand corrected (grammatically), though probably that won't make any (practical) difference.
To point one, you really do leave no stone unturned when it comes to trying to find something negative.

If what was written was in a person's native language then they deserve any kind of slagging they get if they get something hilariously wrong; however if they are making a best faith effort to communicate in a language which is not native to them and I make fun of the person, then the shame is on me, which obligates me to apologise.

To point two, if you don't bother to read anything I write then you have no reason for any criticism. You cannot categorically state something when you have not checked to make sure that you are right. It's not my fault that the first thing I did when I started with computers was to teach myself to type with nine fingers (everyone I know eventually settles on one thumb to hit the spacebar with) and thus feel comfortable with having an actual discussion rather than being constrained to "Death by Powerpoint" bulletpoints.

There are two things which made me bring up the spelling mistake neither of which primarily had anything to do with grammar.

1) It was the second time you had made that mistake in two different posts

2) It sounds like a word that should actually exist which drew my attention to the "mistake":
a) Patology, the study of Irish drinking norms
b) Patology, the study of the "first base"
c) Patology, the study of condescending gestures
d) Patology, the love of ground meat spreads (or Pâtéology if you like)
e) Patology, the study of baldness
f) Patology, when the Internet connection in your home turns Russian and you have an Internyet connection and a Nyetwork.

Those are just a few of the things that went through my head when I saw that you had written "Patology" instead of "Pathology".

plundh
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:52 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by plundh » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:22 am

Thanks for sharing your build. It's good to have another data point for this case since it doesn't seem to be that widely used. I will likely be using it for my next project, since we don't need it to be super small, and I'd rather have it be roomy and easy to build in, so my girlfriend (who's not a techie) can add parts in the future without hassle. Has that been your experience building in it?

To those critiquing this build, what combination of fans and cooler type would you suggest instead for optimal airflow? 140mm in front and no outtake? Inntake on one side panel, and outtake on the other?

quest_for_silence
Posts: 5275
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Location: ITALY

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by quest_for_silence » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:59 am

Nec_V20 wrote:To point one, you really do leave no stone unturned when it comes to trying to find something negative.

I don't understand what you wrote, so I won't answer to this initial sort of rant.

Nec_V20 wrote:To point two, if you don't bother

I didn't write "I don't bother", I explictly wrote that "I didn't get": so, pardon, would you mind to summarize the specific point?

Nec_V20 wrote:There are two things which made me bring up the spelling mistake neither of which primarily had anything to do with grammar.

That's instead something I really don't bother: I don't bother about your misinterpretations, as it doesn't worth any effort to clear them (I guess that's an aspect/consequence of your pathology).

Nec_V20
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by Nec_V20 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:56 am

plundh wrote:Thanks for sharing your build. It's good to have another data point for this case since it doesn't seem to be that widely used. I will likely be using it for my next project, since we don't need it to be super small, and I'd rather have it be roomy and easy to build in, so my girlfriend (who's not a techie) can add parts in the future without hassle. Has that been your experience building in it?

To those critiquing this build, what combination of fans and cooler type would you suggest instead for optimal airflow? 140mm in front and no outtake? Inntake on one side panel, and outtake on the other?
To be honest if I were to nitpick the build it would be the following:

1) The side panels of the Corsair 250D are a bit on the thin side and I managed to get a bend in one of them and I have not managed to flatten it again (whenever I get the bend out of one bit I put a bit of a bend on another bit) and they are a bit of a PITA to put on properly if you don't pay attention (which is how I think I got the bend in the panel in the first place).

2) I just don't see the point in the connections of the Super Flower Leadex 550W Platinum PSU lighting up when something is plugged in. I actually plugged in one more cable than I needed just because the arrangement of what was lit up irritated me (probably an autism thing).

3) I had to buy a separate Noctua 80mm fan (NF-A8) because the 92mm fan supplied with the Noctua NH-L12 cooler just (and I mean by just a small margin) wouldn't clear the RAM. One could just leave the fan off and still have really good cooling for the system, but I was being anal in that I really wanted to see what difference a second fan would make (marginal on the APU temp but a tad more noticeable on system temp) and I only had an older spare Noctua 80mm fan which is not as quiet as the new ones.

4) Getting SATA and power cables onto an SSD is fianagly if the drives are in the bay. The best bet is to pull the cables out through the back, connect them and then push the drives in. Considering where the drives are located, this just screams to have some kind of hotswap connection implemented (however that would interfere with airflow, so that is a bit of a toss-up).

5) This may be a deal-breaker for you, but it wasn't for me, is the fact that I had to remove the 5.25" bay entirely to fit the Noctua NH-L12 cooler. I had no intention of putting an optical drive into the machine in the first place. With the 5.25" bay fitted it is a lot harder to route the cables so that they are clear of the airflow of the 200mm fan. There is however no problem with the 5.25" bay if you fitted the Noctua NH-U9S which I also bought and tested (though that is audible when you crank up the fans and you really would need to buy a second Noctua NF-A9 fan for a push-pull (the cooler comes with a second clip for mounting) if you wanted to run the fans silently and still have good cooling of the APU under load.

6) The motherboard only has four SATA connectors, so if you did want to put in an optical drive then you would have to leave out a hard drive.

7) The motherboard only has two fan headers.

What I call nit-picking others, with other priorities, may consider to be deal-breakers. I was aware of the fact that I would have to remove the 5.25" bay to have the system configured the way I wanted it from the outset and this was no hardship for me.

The case itself is an unobtrusive shoe-box and all in all it is really easy to work in. I would like to see how it performed in a sound lab, but to my ear, with it pressed up against the vent of the case, the system is silent. It is the kind of thing which you could use as a low power (I mean consumption not performance) HTPC or media server, set it and forget it aside from doing updates for the hardware, and leave it running 24/7 for years.

The combination WiFi and Bluetooth on the board works really well and at quite a long distance so controlling or communicating with the system wirelessly is not a problem (I have tested it with a little mini bluetooth keyboard with mouse pad and it works flawlessly from across the room). I also have a Corsair Voyager Air external HD which has WiFi and I have to go pretty far away to lose connectivity if it is streaming a video (though I have to move carefully because if I jar it even ever so slightly when walking the HD inside shuts down).

The 200mm fan pumps enough air into the system that it causes enough of a positive pressure in the case to expel the warm air produced inside the case out of the sides and both levels of the back of the case. The only thing I will be doing is putting some mesh on the rear two 80mm fan mounts in case the 120mm fan is sucking in some air (and of course dust) from the back, although it appears that only warm air is being expelled, from the smoke test I have done. I got rid of the 120mm exhaust fan on the side of the case and didn't see a need to populate any of the 80mm exhaust fan mountings on the back. Any heat being produced in the case is being carried out by the air which is pumped in by the 200mm fan.

A normal "cheap" price for the components would be over £650; however the parts are pretty readily available in the UK and if you have time and go hunting for the specific parts then over the course of a couple of months or so you will be able to get the parts cheaper. The total cost of the system to me after hunting for the parts, and buying only from vendors I know to be reputable, was just under £500 (that includes any and all shipping costs)
Last edited by Nec_V20 on Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

Nec_V20
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by Nec_V20 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:13 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
Nec_V20 wrote:To point one, you really do leave no stone unturned when it comes to trying to find something negative.

I don't understand what you wrote, so I won't answer to this initial sort of rant.

Nec_V20 wrote:To point two, if you don't bother

I didn't write "I don't bother", I explictly wrote that "I didn't get": so, pardon, would you mind to summarize the specific point?

Nec_V20 wrote:There are two things which made me bring up the spelling mistake neither of which primarily had anything to do with grammar.

That's instead something I really don't bother: I don't bother about your misinterpretations, as it doesn't worth any effort to clear them (I guess that's an aspect/consequence of your pathology).
First of all I don't think the word "Pathology" means what you think it means, especially not in the way you use it in regard to my being autistic.

You obviously didn't bother to read my posts otherwise you would have seen that I did explicitly mention the RPM of the 200mm fan in my system. Personally what I think you did do was read the comments of others commenting on my post and then commented to me based on their comments, and not based on what I had actually written. In other words your posts to me are more like a game of Chinese Whispers or Telephone.

Also it was not a rant, it was an observation, which I then went on to clarify.

You seem determined to see the comment I made to you about it being "Pathology" and not "Patology" as some kind of insult or snide remark of some sort. If I had wanted to have a go at you I would have written something along the lines of, "You do realise that spell-checking doesn't involve just moving your lips when you read".

I also only mentioned it because it was the second time you hadn't spelled it correctly in two different posts. There was nothing nefarious intended by my comment (which takes me back to, "you really do leave no stone unturned when it comes to trying to find something negative").

The word "Patology" did jog some associations in me which I mistakenly thought you might find amusing - more fool I.

edh
Posts: 1618
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:49 pm
Location: UK

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by edh » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:40 am

plundh wrote:To those critiquing this build, what combination of fans and cooler type would you suggest instead for optimal airflow? 140mm in front and no outtake? Inntake on one side panel, and outtake on the other?
For a simple build like this (only the CPU is a major heat source) you would be best off focussing purely on CPU cooling and designing the system around this. Fit a big tower cooler (120mm fan), keep the airflow laminar through it and you would require no further fans and could do this at only a few hundred RPM. That's what I run.

The case is not ideal as it's cooling ability is wasted if you don't have lots of hot components (particularly graphics card). By using a relatively low profile (and it is) top down cooler you are not maintaining a clear path of airflow but instead expecting the air to make a turn through the cooler. What is most of the airflow through the case going to do? Bypass the CPU heatsink! This is inefficient and the use of 2 CPU fans and a case fan is therefore wasted. A single, well placed fan on a big tower cooler will be better.

I will not respond to the OP himself anymore as he is very set in his ways and will not read/understand what is put to him.

plundh
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:52 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by plundh » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:29 am

Appreciate the input, Nec_V20 and edh :)

Nec_V20
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by Nec_V20 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:17 pm

edh wrote:
plundh wrote:To those critiquing this build, what combination of fans and cooler type would you suggest instead for optimal airflow? 140mm in front and no outtake? Inntake on one side panel, and outtake on the other?
For a simple build like this (only the CPU is a major heat source) you would be best off focussing purely on CPU cooling and designing the system around this. Fit a big tower cooler (120mm fan), keep the airflow laminar through it and you would require no further fans and could do this at only a few hundred RPM. That's what I run.

The case is not ideal as it's cooling ability is wasted if you don't have lots of hot components (particularly graphics card). By using a relatively low profile (and it is) top down cooler you are not maintaining a clear path of airflow but instead expecting the air to make a turn through the cooler. What is most of the airflow through the case going to do? Bypass the CPU heatsink! This is inefficient and the use of 2 CPU fans and a case fan is therefore wasted. A single, well placed fan on a big tower cooler will be better.

I will not respond to the OP himself anymore as he is very set in his ways and will not read/understand what is put to him.
"Keep the airflow laminar through it". I think you picked up that buzzword "laminar" somewhere and are determined to use it whether it is appropriate or not.

I made the mistake of thinking in the beginning that you actually had a clue about what you were talking about, but looking into it, I see that you are using the term totally inappropriately. Laminar flow in fluid dynamics (and air is just a "fluid" with a very, very, very low viscosity, meaning the concept of laminar flow only really applies to air at very high speeds) refers to the smoothness or roughness of the airflow through or over an enclosed space. With regard to air (and this is where I heard the term "laminar flow") it was with regard to wings of supersonic jet aircraft.

The only laminar flow effects a CPU cooler experiences is with regard to the fan blades when they rotate, not the air going into or coming out of the fan. This reference to laminar flow refers EXCLUSIVELY to how loud the fans are for the speed at which they rotate. The air out of the fan or into the fan does not possess any magical "laminar" properties. The science is what happens to the air as it is accelerated inside the fan casing and how it is focussed with regard to an obstruction (the radiator) to maximise the airflow and minimise the noise.

Needless to say the concept of laminar flow has nothing, but absolutely NOTHING to do with the system I built or the system you have built as regards air travelling through the radiator.

In fact although it is miniscule the laminar flow through my thinner radiator is smoother (and therefore better) than the laminar flow through your much thicker one.

The only high flow air current is produced by the 120mm fan on the top of my cooler blowing in (and the 80mm fan on the bottom pulling out). The 200mm fan has absolutely no influence on this whatsoever. The only thing the 200mm fan does is to carry the warm air away from the cooler and out of the case so that it is not recycled and to supply cooler ambient air for the 120mm fan to use.

I notice you have a dearth of info about your solution and in your post you whinge about Linux not having the drivers to supply that info. It is the easiest thing in the world to install Windows, load the drivers, and then put on a torture test benchmark like OCCT 4.4.2 on it with the AVX capable Linpack running for an hour and see where the temps go.

You don't do that because you know your temps will go through the bloody roof and if you let the benchmark run for about an hour or so you will quite likely blow one or more of the caps around your CPU socket. Sure you will see really great temps for a few minutes with your massive Ninja 4 cooler when running the system under load because the massive heatsink itself is absorbing the heat. When the heatsink itself becomes saturated and the excess still being pumped into it by the heatpipes has to be syphoned off is when the efficacy (or in your case lack of it) of the cooling solution comes into play.

You gloss over that in the thread you pointed me to viewtopic.php?f=14&t=68832 and hope that nobody notices.

And no, doing any kind of benchmark testing with the case open is not going to cut it, because your temperature problems will be totally exacerbated when the case is closed by the fact that you have such a relatively speaking HUGE cooler in such a confined space if you ran any kind of REAL CPU benchmark running on the system for an hour. I would predict that running OCCT 4.4.1 on the system for just ten minutes would see your CPU thermal throttling like mad.

The reason for this is simple; you will reach a point of diminishing returns as the the air being sucked into the radiator becomes increasingly hotter because it is pre-heated by the inadequate cooling of the radiator itself on five sides of it. The cooler, or in this case heater, heats up the ambient air in the case to an ever greater extent and it is then that you are pulling air through it. Unless of course you have the fan set up to draw cooler ambient air into the case in which case you have the air being heated up and not really having much of anywhere to go and making the situation even worse.

After running OCCT 4.4.2 for half an hour (most likely much less) you will notice that the aluminium case will get uncomfortably warm, because your cooler will be using the aluminium case itself as a heatsink to try to dissipate heat. As you may surmise this does not bode well for other components of your system that are trapped inside that oven of your own making.

I thought you had learned your lesson and that you didn't need me to articulate your inadequacies this openly. All through this thread I have restricted myself to answering questions and merely touching on this, thinking that you would get the hint without me having to rebuke you outright.

You though, bolstered by a buzzword and the confidence of your ignorance and imbued by some kind of "seniority" due to your over 1,400 posts here, have to go out of your way to try to discredit me to someone new to this forum who merely addressed a question of what I thought the downside was of my choice of computer case and by extension my system was, which I answered as forthrightly as I could with no self-serving apologia.

I on the other hand can quite happily run the benchmark for days or even weeks on my system and not have to worry about having any temperature problems whatsoever.

You were gabbering on about the 200mm fan delivering more air but at a lower pressure - well DUH! - as if you had handed out a knockout blow and were expecting a cookie. Of COURSE the lb/in^2 (pressure) from a 200mm fan will be less than that of a say 140mm fan delivering the same CFM of volumetric airflow.
Last edited by Nec_V20 on Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

LongJan
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:06 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by LongJan » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:27 pm

edh wrote:Fit a big tower cooler (120mm fan)
Since max height for CPU-cooler is 95mm that will be kind of difficult :o

CA_Steve
Moderator
Posts: 7471
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Silent Grizwald

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:42 pm

I don't think furthering this thread will add value to the community.

Locked