Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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205rally
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Location: Belgium

Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello all,
The (old) website and this forum have been a great source of pc build information to me over the years so i was hoping it could be so again.
My current build is:
Define R6
Ryzen 7 5800x
Noctua nhd 15 (1 fan)
Gigabyte b550 vision d
RTX 2070s evga ftw3 ultra ( 301.925 mm long)
2 4tb wd red
2 Noctua NF-A12x25 2 front ,1 rear NF-F12
5,25 Disc burner
I mostly game and do CAD
Im looking to change to a case with better airflow since i am not super happy with the thermals or noise, mainly gpu since the fans arnt the quietest under light load.
Doing some research i realised i really dont like most modern cases.
My criterias are,
Good airflow
Good build quality
Can store 2-4 3,5 hdd and a couple of ssd's.
Preferably 1 or 2 optical bays
Classy understated look
I would prefer a bit smaller or same size as the R6
Preferably no glass and most preferably no window at all (although could live with it)
Currently i have come up with these:
Silverstone ft-01 (only 1 180mm fan enough?)
Silverstone ft-02 (big and hard to build in?)
Silverstone ft-04 ( not the best build quality?)
Fractal Design torrent (very big, no 5,25 would need mod for better hdd cage)
+ Silverstone alta f1 (glass )
+ A few older lian li cases like the PC-9F, PC-7N,PC-10N a
Any feedback or other options i should look at? I dont have a set budget, and i would be willing to buy new fans if there are some with a better sound profile.
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by 205rally on Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:37 am

I just can't believe that you have problems with airflow or noise with your configuration, so I suspect that changing the case won't change much in terms of temperatures and rather for sure will make things worse in terms of noise. I have similar configuration in Define 7 with e.g. way worse 2070S.

Did you try to open the door and remove top cover? It will simulate what you can expect from changing the case for airflow-focused one without any tweaks with components. (here topic of buying new case should end)
Did you play with fan curves of GPU and CPU? 80C is reasonable max temperature for both. Anything other like undervolting?

CA_Steve
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by CA_Steve » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:14 am

Welcome to SPCR as a poster :)

Some baseline idle/load temps for your case/CPU/GPU under typical applications would be a great start. Along with fan profile information.

205rally
Posts: 11
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Location: Belgium

Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:35 pm

Thank you for your replies, much appreciated.
Here are the temps and fan speeds.
I am using custom fan curves for case and cpu fan.
At idle all closed i have:

Cpu 46c 40% 700rpm
Gpu 48c 1 fan at 22% 670rpm other 2 at 0%
Front lower fan 40% 960 rpm
Front Top fan 40% 1000 rpm
Back fan 40% 641 Rpm

This is nearly inaudible, so im pleased with this.
Under a synthetic load i have :

Cpu under load 78c cpu fan at 73% 1150rpm
Gpu under load 86c gpu fans 72% 2100rpm boosting to 1815MHz
Front lower fan 75% 1700rpm
Front Top fan 75 % 1600 rpm
Back fan 55% 1200 Rpm

This is where it starts to get too loud,
compare this to same load when the case is opened (top removed door open (using a less restrictive filter already))

Cpu under load 67c cpu fan at 48% 840rmp
Gpu under load 73c gpu fans at 46% 1300rpm boosting to 1950MHZ

Front lower fan 55% 1100 rpm
Front Top fan 55 % 1200 rpm
Back fan 43% 700 Rpm

Looking at a combination of realistic load, matlab, solidworks, comsol, gaming, etc cpu and gpu load:
Closed:
Cpu under load 75c cpu fan at 63% 1000rmp
Gpu under load 77c gpu fans at 65% 1900rpm boosting to 1950MHZ

Front lower fan 55% 1100 rpm
Front Top fan 75 % 1600 rpm
Back fan 55% 1200 Rpm

Open:
Cpu under load 68c cpu fan at 48% 840rmp
Gpu under load 66c gpu fans at 30% 900rpm boosting to 1950MHZ

Front lower fan 43% 1000 rpm
Front Top fan 43 % 1100 rpm
Back fan 43% 700 Rpm

The load level sound is too much for me, mostly the gpu.
I also have struggled to get the gpu fan curve right as at a medium load the fans will turn on and off repeatedly which makes a very annoying noise. This seems to be quite reliant on ambient temps as i have had to keep adjusting the curve through out the summer. Ive ended up using the gpus "overclocking" bios stock fan curve as it will keep 1 fan running at all time (and doesnt seem to be any more loud than my many custom curves) , which seems to have somewhat helped.

The big difference in open and closed temps leads me to think i need something more airflow focused? The noise level at load is also alot more pleasant.

I am also not sure how great the hdd mounting is as it is only supported on 3 corners.
Maybe i should look back at a R5, better hdd mounting, no psu shroud (i would imagine this has an effect on gpu cooling), side fan option.
Unfortunately my gpu has some coil whine under load after my cpu upgrade, so some dampening foam might be needed in any new case.
Any opinions on the other cases i mentioned?
Thank you again!

Abula
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Abula » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:17 pm

I agree with Japanese Capacitor, open the R6 frontal door and remove the filter, thats as good as it will get in any of the airflow oriented cases. If you are not happy with your temps and noise like that, a new case wont fix your issues. Personally i reach the point where i cant cool a 5950x quietly on my daily tasks, so im moving to water, but a 5800x with a D15 you should have a good headroom.

You can relax more the CPU temperature graphs, 78C with 1150rpms, the 5800x can take more heat easily, it wont lose boosts till 95C, so let the ramp later on. You are exchanging quiet operation for hotter running cpu, this is a trade we all do here. Just keep it below 90c and it should be fine.

ON the GPU, RTX 2070s evga ftw3 ultra, EVGA is not known for quiet operation or design, given that its not the best time, but i would try to get RTX3070 Asus STRIX or MSI Gaming Trio, both are much quiet operation GPUs. Even a Powercolor 6800XT Red devil would be great if you can manage to get one.

Now if you still want to get a new case, with better airflow than the R6, the Lian Li Air Cool 215 is one that always is on gamers nexus top charts for airflow, but no filters, something that i personally dont recommend, so i would suggest to take a look into BeQuiet DX500.

I no longer run mechanical hdds, i moved all my drives to a unRaid server. My suggestion is look into a Synology NAS and take it out of hearing range and run it on the network, they are really nice and easy to use, something like Synology DiskStation DS420+ is a solid option with intel J4025 that can run plex transcoding among other things.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:17 am

The difference in temps and rpms between open and closed configurations is just suspicious. I tried it few times with my config (9700K, Scythe Ninja 5 + 2070S Gaming OC) in games, so realistic scenario and with door open, no front filter and top removed ( I don't keep top dust filter, so it made one big hole) the best I once achieved were dwo degrees less on CPU and one less on GPU. Their fans slowed down just a little, but pc was way louder due to all sounds escaping.

But generally your temps and rpms are fine, but there's something wrong ;) I mean realistic load ones, no point of talking about stress testing. What is confusing is again the difference between open and closed options. There may be be various reasons for that like you keep your case in some limited space or you don't clean front filter too often, but my first suspects are these case fans fan curves. Roaring during idle for no reason when your computer produces almost no heat, during load it's just some complete chaos (one 1000 rpm, secound 1600, another 1200). I have never tried something like that, maybe it's not that bad, but just plug these fans to case's hub, set them to run the same speed (let's say 1200 rpm) and constant (0-100C). Then do your games or other real-life load.

Turning on and off of GPU fans means reaching temperature border, where GPU comes from passive to active cooling. Just move this point like three degrees further.

As you can see, you can just open the door and top to achive better results, so I don't see a point of changing the case ;) It can only make things worse in terms of noise. Airflow cases look best on reviews, during hardcore stress testing, but it's unrealistic, not similar to any real-life usage. Example of real differences: https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/chassis/ ... ct/?page=3 Config similarly hot to yours, tested during encoding and gaming.

205rally
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Location: Belgium

Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:23 am

Abula wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:17 pm
I agree with Japanese Capacitor, open the R6 frontal door and remove the filter, thats as good as it will get in any of the airflow oriented cases. If you are not happy with your temps and noise like that, a new case wont fix your issues. Personally i reach the point where i cant cool a 5950x quietly on my daily tasks, so im moving to water, but a 5800x with a D15 you should have a good headroom.

You can relax more the CPU temperature graphs, 78C with 1150rpms, the 5800x can take more heat easily, it wont lose boosts till 95C, so let the ramp later on. You are exchanging quiet operation for hotter running cpu, this is a trade we all do here. Just keep it below 90c and it should be fine.

ON the GPU, RTX 2070s evga ftw3 ultra, EVGA is not known for quiet operation or design, given that its not the best time, but i would try to get RTX3070 Asus STRIX or MSI Gaming Trio, both are much quiet operation GPUs. Even a Powercolor 6800XT Red devil would be great if you can manage to get one.

Now if you still want to get a new case, with better airflow than the R6, the Lian Li Air Cool 215 is one that always is on gamers nexus top charts for airflow, but no filters, something that i personally dont recommend, so i would suggest to take a look into BeQuiet DX500.

I no longer run mechanical hdds, i moved all my drives to a unRaid server. My suggestion is look into a Synology NAS and take it out of hearing range and run it on the network, they are really nice and easy to use, something like Synology DiskStation DS420+ is a solid option with intel J4025 that can run plex transcoding among other things.
Thank you for your input.
Yes with the case "open" the noise and temps are acceptable, although would i think something like the FT-04 or FT-02 might do better in terms of noise as the fans are directly in view?

My cpu is not really a problem even at closed it is quiet enough (although it seems the fan has started to tick, maybe time for a replacement fan), its really the gpu and especially as i plan on adding a sas or sata card ( have run out of ports).
I did look at the Msi gaming trio 2070s when i was buying, but ive had terrible experience with msi's support in the past so didnt want to buy from them. Not really planning on getting a new gpu anytime soon though, especially at current market.

I was looking at cases without a psu shrouds below the gpu as i imagine they hurt gpu temps(anyone know if it has been tested?)? Any opinions on the cases i listed?
I am definitely wanting filters. I replaced the stock r6 filter which i found useless in both dust and airflow, with a less restrictive one.
I also use a blue ray burner for offline backups so a optical bay is preferable.

I do have a self built nas running truenas , however i found i still need the hdds in my pc as my network is not fast enough, and i move between two countries with my pc every couple of months (for work) .

205rally
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 5:41 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:18 am

Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:17 am
The difference in temps and rpms between open and closed configurations is just suspicious. I tried it few times with my config (9700K, Scythe Ninja 5 + 2070S Gaming OC) in games, so realistic scenario and with door open, no front filter and top removed ( I don't keep top dust filter, so it made one big hole) the best I once achieved were dwo degrees less on CPU and one less on GPU. Their fans slowed down just a little, but pc was way louder due to all sounds escaping.

But generally your temps and rpms are fine, but there's something wrong ;) I mean realistic load ones, no point of talking about stress testing. What is confusing is again the difference between open and closed options. There may be be various reasons for that like you keep your case in some limited space or you don't clean front filter too often, but my first suspects are these case fans fan curves. Roaring during idle for no reason when your computer produces almost no heat, during load it's just some complete chaos (one 1000 rpm, secound 1600, another 1200). I have never tried something like that, maybe it's not that bad, but just plug these fans to case's hub, set them to run the same speed (let's say 1200 rpm) and constant (0-100C). Then do your games or other real-life load.

Turning on and off of GPU fans means reaching temperature border, where GPU comes from passive to active cooling. Just move this point like three degrees further.

As you can see, you can just open the door and top to achive better results, so I don't see a point of changing the case ;) It can only make things worse in terms of noise. Airflow cases look best on reviews, during hardcore stress testing, but it's unrealistic, not similar to any real-life usage. Example of real differences: https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/chassis/ ... ct/?page=3 Config similarly hot to yours, tested during encoding and gaming.
Yes im sure there are flaws in my testing, but anecdotally my gpu fans are alot quieter when the case is open and generally apart from slightly more coilwhine and hdd noise, the pc is quieter.
Each fan curve is based on a different component temp, so lower fan is the max gpu /cpu, top fan is max cpu temp same for the top, the rear fan is cpu temp based. I tried this after reading about the new mac pro doing something similar (although it may not work as well without shrouding ), i will try setting them to 1200 rpm.

Yes i do move the point , however it seems to be very ambient temp based, so from one week to another or even day to day i will have to ajust it, which is a pain.

If the solution is really just to leave my case opened, then i would rather move to a different case.
Thank you for your comment.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:33 am

Leave this Apple idea - that's rather some marketing bs. Optimum Tech tried it with Define 7 and results were dissapointing, but it's ofc not fully comparable. Whole goal of this approach - according to Apple - was not about cooling, but noise. They stated that fans running different speeds when providing the same airflow as all running the same, are percieved as quieter, more pleasant to ears or whatever. If I remember that all well, but you can watch this video.

If you don't make your pc's life harder with working conditions like mentioned restricted space, dust, terrible cable management etc, I suspect the problem are here your fan curves. Try what I told you in case of having this possibility checked. Maybe you have some motherboard's or whatever software, which let you control fans speeds from Windows? It's comfortable during such experiments.

You seem already fixed on buying new case, but that's bad idea. Really, if I were you I would think about what possibly disturbs your pc ventilation, experiment with fan curves or fan placement (I would prefer to have three front fans and one rear exhaust and use top closed).

205rally
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:24 am

I did notice that running the fans at different fan speeds does get rid of any resonances from the fans, this was especially useful when i was ruining front nf-14.

I already use Argus monitor to control fan speeds so i will def give what you suggest a try.

Yes i am leaning towards buying a new case, not only for strict performance reasons either. I should maybe have mentioned this more in my post. This is why i asked about the cases i mentioned, wondering if they are still good in 2021. I still do thin (although i want to test somehow) that psu shrouds reduce gpu cooling.
I will add a front fan and try what you suggested!
Any suggestions for a case fan? I like the NF-A12x25 but they are abit pricey, and i don't have the stock fans around anymore.
Thank you.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:31 am

Every fan running in closed space with various speeds hits the frequencies resulting in resonant noise. You just need to set your fans to avoid these.

I forget your thought about shroud and GPU cooling in previous posts. It happenes that I tested it in the past :D Not with Define 7, which has unremovable shroud, but also ATX case with similar distance from GPU to shroud and even this one was not perforated, so possibly worse: Silentium PC Armis AR7. Result was no impact on temperatures, but definitely on acoustics: way louder and irregular movement of air inside the case. Maybe small distance to shroud or PSU may be a problem when it's really small. Let's say Define Nano S, where PSU sits super close to card. Generally case airflow doesn't cool your components - it reduces the temperature inside the case, which can affect more or less your components temps. The better cooling solutions of individual components, the less they are affected by temperature inside the case. E.g. undervolting your card or reducing it's Power Target in software like Evga Precision work like making it having better cooler. I generally recommend one of this way as a must for unsatified, uv is this better, but demands more work and patience.

Don't you already have four fans? I meant to use two or three front ones, one rear exhaust. Placing one of such four as top exhaust should shave you few degrees compared to what I recommended, but I would prefer to avoid using open top due to big hit on acoustics. NF-A12x25 are more radiator fans, but they are also decent case ones. I can recommend you some, but I so much doubt that changing the fans or the case are ways to solve your problem.

205rally
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:25 am

Interesting, when i used the define r4 i had a fan placed where the green box is, and that helped gpu thermals.
https://imgur.com/JbgVlZ2
maybe i should try similar in the r6, orange is where i currently have fans and i could try putting one in the green box. and adding another fan to the front
https://imgur.com/fd9rfMY
But again i think im looking for a new case ;)
Last edited by 205rally on Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:16 am

I can't see your images.

I completely don't understand, why you even can think about new case. Main attraction of Define series is, these are silence-focused cases, but with options to open the door or using ventilated top they transform into airflow cases and still are quiter thanks to e.g. sound-deadening material on the walls or noise-blocking front grill. As I told you, you seem fixed on getting new case instead of trying to make things right, but fine, that's your thing ;) My recommendation is Meshify 2 as imo the best airflow case on the market. It also fits most of your given criteria. You will need to buy yourself USB disc burner and open construction combined with lack of sound-deadening material means no coil-whine, HDD or whatever noise reduction. Looking at what I wrote few sentences above, my recommendation looks like changing things for worse, but it's exactly what you want ;)

205rally
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:00 am

Fixed the links

I can see why you wouldn't understand, but really, ive tinkered with the fans curves for days, ive changed fans, ive changed the filter, changed case layout and still i cant get the cooling i want. I will try the suggestions ofc.
The performance issues are the main driving factor for a new case, however i do also want to change the case for other reasons, like looks, better hdd mounting(?), more optical bays, different airflow options (like 180mm fans), different layout, etc.
I still want it to be silent focused, which is why i was looking towards the ones i mentioned, most of them also have sound dampening, closed constructions etc.
Ill be adding 1 or 2 pcie cards soon and that can only hurt gpu temps so maybe i do have to sacrifice some hhd noise, coil whine to have acceptable gpu noise.

I did look at the meshify 2, not really a fan of the looks, and im abit meh about a open top panel, and the lack of optical bays, i will still consider it.
I might even just go to a r5, built in them a few times always got decent performance out of them (side fan is a great feature imo).

Thank you :D

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:09 am

Now I see the photos :] I have never tried such kinda air-channeling (no intake or exhaust) fan placements, but it was quite popular in times of whole front filled with HDD cage. Generally every case and configuration is different, so something what worked for mine, may not work for yours. People used to install bottom fan in older Define cases and it was helping with GPU temps, with mine it just changed nothing, but e.g. I don't use storage layout.

Your criteria are generally hard to meet - there're many, most of them fit more cases from different era and they don't produce such cases anymore, mixing it with looks make it even harder (I would put anything else above looks and especially main functions of the case: cooling, low noise and dust filtration). Check which of typed SilverStone cases are even available to buy, because they have few on their site you just can't buy anymore. Maybe check Phanteks - they are solid company and still sell their quite old cases.

CA_Steve
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:00 am

The crazy amount of temperature delta between open and closed case conditions makes me wonder about a couple of things:
- Is the less restrictive front filter actually more restrictive than stock? (what do temps look like w/o the filter?)
- Is there some intentional or unintentional overvolting going on causing what would normally be <400W stressed load power to be much greater? Causing more internal heat than the three 120mm fans can adequately get rid of at a reasonable rpm.
- As the biggest problem is the gfx card, perhaps it's time to go with a liquid cooler for it and use a top mounted radiator. The lower rpms and an open top will be quieter than the current solution.

And, just to be complete, although unlikely: Have the CPU and gpu cooler heat sinks been cleaned of accumulated dust? I noticed my gfx card fans spinning up a month or so ago and realized it was time for a deep cleaning.

205rally
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:22 pm

They don't really drop when removing the filter unfortunately, no dust either all heatsinks are clean.

I swapped the bottom noctua 120 mm with a 140 nb eloop and it actually helped quite a bit, it seems with how the mounting is i cant get the 120mm low enough to get air properly under the gpu. Its still not much better, but dropped the gpu fan speed by about 10%. The nb eloop has a unfortunate noise when being used as a intake however so will be looking for other options.

I might try and move the hdd mount vertical plate back to make the layout the "open " layout, wonder if that will help at all.

I did just try moving my entire pc to the meshify c , ofc similar temps to the define 6 with top and front removed, but significantly more coil whine and hdd noise.

Currently im leaning towards getting a define r5 and using the bottom intake and a bracket to force more air towards the gpu, like puget systems did:
https://imgur.com/a/cTKV1n3

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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by CA_Steve » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:21 pm

nod.

Do take a look into both your motherboard settings and the gpu's profile. Even a slight drop in core voltage can mean a lot for reducing power/temps as power is proportional to V^2*f.

205rally
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by 205rally » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:04 am

Alittle update, i ended up swapping into a old antec p183 i found, and used my r6 for a server build.

While i was rebuilding my pc i decided to crack open the gpu and check out the thermal paste application.
I should have taken pictures, but it was the WORST application i have ever seen on a gpu, barely a quarter of the gpu die was covered, i replaced it with a useful amount and ive seen a 7-10c drop at load, and a significant drop in gpu fans speeds.
It seems this was the main problem.
I probably wont keep my pc in the 183 as much as i like this case its hard to work in (very little space behind the mb) and unfortunately the side panel mounting seems to be a weak point and a few of the clips on mine have snapped off. (in hind sight steel might have been better)

Im looking at the the define 7 or define R5, not sure which would be better at this point. One key feature of the r5 i like is the ability to add a top rear fan and a bottom fan, ive found having a top fan really helps drop temps without letting too much noise out. Although maybe a stronger rear fan would have the same effect (140mm maybe??)

The silent base 802 also seems very good, according to cybernetics labs (https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?op ... &manfID=22) the sound dampening is better than the d7, unfortunately it doesn't have any 5,25 bays.

Any feedback is welcome

Thanks for all the help

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Help find a R6 replacement with better cooling

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:01 am

Cybenetics' soundproof measurements of SB802 and D7 were taken with different equipments.
https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?op ... anfID=9999
Email them if you are more interested in such details - they respond nicely and fast. Testing soundproff of windowed versions is also kinda meh.

Imo D7>D5>802. From all of the tests online comparing these cases (D7 and 802) I've seen, it looks like D7 is quieter and comparably to better ventilated than 802 with closed panels. Using mesh = option to slow down front fans when giving the same airflow, but bye bye to sound-dampening (making your computer sound nicer and less intrusive) and all sounds escaping from the case. Btw there was the guy on our fourm who replaced Define R4 or 5 with Silent Base 601 (kinda the same as 802) and his impression was, this case seemed to make things worse in terms of HDDs' noise. D7 is also better than D5 with having more fans and with quieter bearings or ergonomics. I personally chose D7 over anything else due to finding it the best on the market and today I would do the same :]

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