Quiet P4 3.2....possible?

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:49 pm

So I'm supposed to build a quiet powerful computer.....Intel based. The thing will be used for number crunching and little else. The intel on-board graphics will be fine. Only one small hard drive, one cdrw, one floppy drive....that's it.

The work it will be doing requires maximum CPU usage for extended times....like sometimes over-night. It'll get hot. And he wants it reasonably quiet. Cost is of little concern...maximum performance is.

So where to start with a case? I'm thinking something like a Super Lanboy with a 120mm Fortron-type PSU would be cool enough with the right CPU heatsink/fan combo.....but how quiet would it be? I am not willing to make many mods, since it's not for me.

Any ideas? Remember....cost is not a consideration. A P4 3.2 with 1 gig ram, on an Intel board is all he specifies. Hummm....

Oh...no water-cooling.

JimK · Post by **JimK** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:01 pm

I think the 3.0 and 3.2 have the same power requirements and lots of folks around here run 3.0s with a gig of memory so that should not be a problem.

On board video may be a problem as the 865G Springdale is the most powerful Intel chipset with built-in video. For the apps you need to run on this system would an 875 Canterwood buy you something? Then add a nice passive cooled 2-D card like the Matrox G-550 which would do beautiful graphing of results.

Didn't answer the case question, did I. But then I don't know much about cases.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:29 am

The "System 2" in my sig is pretty darn quiet and according to Intel's specs the 3.2 puts out the same amount of heat as the 3.0 in my system so you should at least be able to duplicate what I've got, if not make it quieter if you're willing to work a little harder at it than I did.

First off, I wouldn't use a Super Lanboy. They're noisy in two different ways. First, they have a completely open front bezel which lets all the interior noise escape, and second, the aluminum resonates in a rather annoying way.

I'd go with a good 'ol steel standby like the Evercase 4252 (the 120mm fan version from ARM) or a 3700AMB-BQE/6A19/D8000. Either of these has very good airflow plus well designed front bezels and the quietness of steel construction.

My setup is quite stock. I'm using an SLK900 with a 8-ish volt 92mm L1A, a single 120mm L1A @ 5V as the case fan, a quiet SS400 PSU and the case is lined with AcoustiPack foam. I'm sure this system is quiet enough for anyone but the most die-hard SPCR'ers and it runs in the high 50°C range at full (2xPrime95) load during the hot (95°F+ ambient) summer/fall so it should have plenty of headroom for what he needs.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:51 pm

Thanks for the reply, Ralf. Of course I have seen the 3700BQE....there's a place near me that sells them, and I know that case is a favorite around here. But I'm sorry to say it just doesn't impress me from an airflow viewpoint. I had a Lanboy, and the steel version (2600). They both have similar case construction in the front lower section. And they work well with an 80mm fan in front.....but when you cram a 120mm fan up front, there is just not enough intake area with the small louvers, and the bottom intake hole. That's why the Super Lanboy looks to be a much cooler running case. Sound is another matter.

I've spent countless hours searching for a case with a 120mm intake fan that has good airflow....without the noise. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and determine to mod a standard quiet case to suit my own specs. The main problem here is I am not willing to build a high-power computer that runs with CPU temps in the high 50s under load. Actually I think I can build a computer to his specs....reasonably quiet, that tops out under 50. It just looks like I cannot buy a case that will work well without a re-design of the intake. I've come up with a new design to do the trick, simpler than some of my other projects.....we'll see.

I am still willing to listen to any more ideas....

There is one thing I've considered.....A 3700BQE with the rear fan as an intake, blowing ambient air directly on the CPU heatsink. With that setup, I think you could get by with a smaller front fan to cool the hard drive. With that setup the PSU would be the only exhaust fan.....it'd work, but how well is the question.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:13 am

Bluefront wrote: The main problem here is I am not willing to build a high-power computer that runs with CPU temps in the high 50s under load.

Why not?

It's perfectly safe and well within Intel's thermal spec.

I strongly suspect (and we've batted this around before) that Dell's CPUs are running in the 50's/60's under load and they certainly have no problem with building and selling thier machines with that type of hardware setup.

PorBleemo · Post by **PorBleemo** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:16 am

Ralf Hutter wrote:
Bluefront wrote: The main problem here is I am not willing to build a high-power computer that runs with CPU temps in the high 50s under load.
Why not?

It's perfectly safe and well within Intel's thermal spec.

I strongly suspect (and we've batted this around before) that Dell's CPUs are running in the 50's/60's under load and they certainly have no problem with building and selling thier machines with that type of hardware setup.

Another thing to consider is that Intel's chips have very good thermal protection. If the processor heats up too much the processor will underclock itself or turn itself off. However temps need to get into the warning zone for that and your temps arn't even there yet.

-Por

mond · Post by **mond** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:29 am

Ralf, how much do you offset the core-temp by relative to the one reported by the asus sensor?

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:15 am

mond wrote:Ralf, how much do you offset the core-temp by relative to the one reported by the asus sensor?

I add 8°C to the reported CPU sensor temp.

Talz · Post by **Talz** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:49 am

Shouldn't and intel board be using the on die cpu sensor?

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:07 pm

Well I can answer the temperature question easily.....It's not my computer. It has to be stable and reliable, with the ability to run wide-open, un-attended, for long periods. To build a computer for someone that you know will be on the edge of over-heating constantly......is folly. Particularly so because I know it could run cooler, if slightly noiser.

Now if this was a computer for myself.....it would be different. I have never built a computer that will run this hot for long periods, so I'm building it on the careful side.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:38 am

Bluefront wrote:Well I can answer the temperature question easily.....It's not my computer. It has to be stable and reliable, with the ability to run wide-open, un-attended, for long periods. To build a computer for someone that you know will be on the edge of over-heating constantly......is folly.

High 50°C is not anywhere near the edge of overheating by any stretch and, as PorBleemo mentioned, the P4's throttle themselves back if their temp gets over 70-72°C.

You really can't damage these CPU's by overheating, it's a non-issue.

The issue with these high-end P4's is that they dissapate a lot of heat and it's difficult to quietly get rid of it without resorting to more exotic cooling methods than a simple case fan. Since you say you're not willing to do that sort of thing you'll have to live with what you get using "standard technology". You can only move so much air quietly, so you'll have to decide what sort of balance between noise and CPU temp you're willing to live with. If you want load temps noticeably cooler than what I've been talking about you're going to need more fannage, or a free-er breathing case. Either way, you'll be adding noise to the system.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:25 am

All right...here's what I've come up with, still subject to modification. A Black Knight, with one major modification to the case. I will close off the stock intake hole in front. I'll cut a 120mm hole in the bottom of the case, just behind the hard drive cage. This 120mm fan will blow out, the case being raised about 4" off the floor with a platform and castors.

The rear 120mm fan will blow in, directly at the cpu/heatsink with a simple duct. A Fortron 120mm PSU will blow out, of course. There will be no cards in this case, so airflow through the case will be un-impeded.

I'll use the built-in fan controller to control the intake and the lower exhaust fan, as well as the CPU fan. The PSU fan will take care of itself.

This case/setup has several advantages....

Steel case with a front door over the drives.

Comes with a multi-speed 3-fan controller.

Has a temp monitoring LED....visible with the door closed.

It comes with two 120mm fans.

There will be no fans sounds from the front of the case.

And the fan speeds will be easily adjustable for different conditions.

I think it'll work...

sorenbro · Post by **sorenbro** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:11 am

You mention that cost is not an issue, that the computer has to be reliable and that you do not wish to spend too much time modding the computer, so why not go with an ARMS computer?
They use highly reliable components and have warranty. Plus you can decide which parts you want in the computer meaning you only spend a minimum of time, you only have to configure the computer and have it sent.

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:24 am

I have to chime in here about aluminum cases: Don't do it! They do make more noise, and it takes more effort to get rid of that noise. I've gone through a half dozen al. cases recently and they ALL had that higher freq hummy noise, which gets under your skin after a while. Regarding airflow, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a BQE, only the Evecase might be slightly better.

But the airflow in any half decent case can be improved by just popping open the cover of an unused 5.25" bay. I am starting to use these as "spot coolers". In one system, I opened up the bottom one of 4 optical drive bays. The 3.5" bay below was filled and there was a CD rom drive above, so there was a kind of natural duct, leadsinhg straight to the space just above the VGA & below the CPU: The CPU temp dropped almost 3C in 5 mins! And because all the fans (as usual) are running 6V or less, when I lined the underside of the CD drive with some foam, there was no added noise with the cover off.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:17 am

sorenbro wrote:You mention that cost is not an issue, that the computer has to be reliable and that you do not wish to spend too much time modding the computer, so why not go with an ARMS computer?
They use highly reliable components and have warranty. Plus you can decide which parts you want in the computer meaning you only spend a minimum of time, you only have to configure the computer and have it sent.

Now there's a good idea!

Look at the P4 3.2Ghz ARM system that MikeC just reviewed. There's a kick-ass system and you can configure it however you want (i.e. strip it down to a basic configuration with inexpensive vidcard, no other PCI cards etc) and let ARM build it and deliver it for you.

The warranty work (if any is needed) would also be handled by ARM so you wouldn't be getting any calls at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night saying "help , I can't seem to....". Believe me, that alone would be worth it.

Think of all the time and energy you'd be saving yourself by not having to buy the hardware, mod the case, build it and support it afterwards. Seems like a win, win, win situation for all involved.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:44 pm

Well I did look at the Arm system, as well as a large number of others. The guy who is financing this project decided it would be better to custom build the system.....even the Arm has limited choices.

The case is the only sticky point. That Black Knight seems to be the best on paper.....if you're willing to do some mods. I showed him the pictures and he agreed with me. He has bought three systems from me before, so I know any maintenance won't be a big deal. Plus....he knows I can get computers repaired much faster than a computer company, small or large.

Most important to me....I'll make a few more bucks doing it this way.

NullObject · Post by **NullObject** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:52 pm

Bluefront, a few quick notes:

I find it odd that you ask for help and then ignore all the suggestions that people give you, especially someone as experienced and knowledgeable as Ralf Hutter.

If cost is no object then you should use good hardware based solutions for auido/video/networking, etc. Onboard will use more cpu cycles, leaving less for that number crunching you keep talking about.

Also Intel boards, while reliable and stable, are usually not the best performers.

If cost is really no object I would suggest the Zalman TNN500A case. I'm not sure if its for sale yet, someone here would probably know the answer.

Do you know if the "number crunching" software works with SMP? If so get a dual Xeon rig for more power...quieting it might be an issue though. Or a quad if money is really no object.

Also why would you make a hole in the bottom to blow out and the top rear to blow in? This will lower the effectiveness of your cooling since your airflow would fight against normal convection currents. I believe that having the cool air blow on the CPU first will raise ambients too.

It sounds like you are telling your client that it would be better to build a custom system(maybe to line your wallet since you mention that being the most important point) instead of buying a system. I see nothing in what you have said that would make it *special* enought to REQUIRE a custom build.

ARM systems is experienced at building powerful quiet computers. If you didn't find anything that suited your super special p4 3.2, 1g ram, small hd, floppy, optical and an intel board with onboard video needs, they could customize for you. From what I have seen on this board, they provide great service and support.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:47 pm

Well I have already looked into the cases mentioned by Ralf and others. But since I have had some experience with similar Antec cases, the 3700 series doesn't impress me....not enough to build an expensive computer around it.

As far as SMP goes.....this prog he runs only works in Win 98, so a single processor will have to do.

I suppose that Zalman case you mention is the one with total passive cooling, heat-pipes everywhere? Interesting but too experimental to risk that much money on a case.

And I seriously doubt an on-board graphic chip will slow down a non-graphic application. The man specified an Intel board....so I'm following his wishes on that one.

I've constructed several systems with an airflow system like I suggested....the CPU runs extremely well with ambient air blowing on it, cooler in fact than any other method I've tried. The only problem I ever had was constructing a good filter setup for a rear case fan location. This new setup I'm building will not require filtration, so it should work, even with a P4 3.2.

PretzelB · Post by **PretzelB** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:59 am

It sounds like you've made up your mind but I find it hard to imagine that the Antec 3700 or it's Compucase counterpart isn't a better option than that case you've picked.

You're going to cut a brand new hold in the case and add a duct when you didn't want to mod very much. With the 3700 and it's cousin cases you only need to remove the grills. If you really think intake is an issue I'm sure you could make some small cuts in the bezel to open it up. Or you could do as someone suggested and remove one of the drive covers and replace it with some foam.

You also said you want it cool and the cpu to stay below 50 but you're very focused on the case temp. The best you can do with case cooling is to get it close room temperature. The cpu temp will benefit from running at room temp but the major factor for cpu temp is the heat sink. I'm not familiar with intel heat sinks but if money isn't an issue you should be able to get some really great heat sink to bring that temp down.

I guess I'm confused what you're objection is to the other cases. The Antec 3700, Compucase, Antec Sonata, Evercase 4252 and even my Chenbro 611 can give you a case temp very close to room temp with little or no noise. That's the best your case can do. The rest is your hsf, which hasn't even been discussed really and I can't help with now.

Also, I agree with the other poster and if noise is really a consideration then you really need to go with steel.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:35 pm

PretzelB.....I'm not following you here. I am concerned about CPU temps above all. In order to keep the temp below 50c, I purpose to blow ambient temp air right onto the cpu/heatsink, using the rear 120mm case fan. The PSU fan and the lower case fan will exhaust the air. What's the problem?

That Black Knight is a steel case by the way. I'll only need to cut one hole in the bottom for the new fan location. No big deal. If I could find a case that makes effective use of a front 120mm fan (quietly)....I'd consider it. That's why I started this thread.

As far as a pre-built system is concerned....how do you suggest I make any profit on it? I don't build stuff for people for my health....heh. I can buy an HP computer at Sam's loaded to the gills for under 2k. But this guy doesn't want that sort of thing. He even scoffed when I suggested dual-booting Win98 and XP. He wants Win98 on a new machine because his programs only run on DOS. Too much for me.

ruprag · Post by **ruprag** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:43 am

According to a friend of mine the onboard graphics do cost CPU power !!

He had a nvidia board (not an intel, true) but he claimed up to 50% better seti@home performance when he put a separate GPU in the machine.

Now I am not sure that his numbers were correct but this is still something to think about.

PretzelB · Post by **PretzelB** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:59 am

Bluefront wrote:PretzelB.....I'm not following you here. I am concerned about CPU temps above all. In order to keep the temp below 50c, I purpose to blow ambient temp air right onto the cpu/heatsink, using the rear 120mm case fan. The PSU fan and the lower case fan will exhaust the air. What's the problem?

I guess the duct will work but I just didn't think it was necessary. Many of the favorite cases on this site do a fine job of getting the case temp close to ambient without a duct. You seemed to think the intake airflow was insufficent on all the suggested cases which I was puzzled at. Also I wanted to point out that even with no mods practically all the cases suggested should give you a case temp near ambient. Once your case gets you a temp near room temp then only thing left is to look at the cpu hsf.

Bluefront wrote: That Black Knight is a steel case by the way. I'll only need to cut one hole in the bottom for the new fan location. No big deal. If I could find a case that makes effective use of a front 120mm fan (quietly)....I'd consider it. That's why I started this thread.

I'm glad the Black Knight is steel. That should help a lot with noise. I don't know what I thinking but for some reason I was convinced that case was aluminum.

If you think the mod for cutting the hole is no big deal then go right ahead. I thought I read you didn't want to make any mods but it looks like that must have been a different thread.

Post pictures when you get it all assembled!!

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:26 pm

One reason to use on-board graphics is airflow. Without the AGP card in place, there is a straight shot for airflow in either direction. This system won't have any cards, which gives many options for unobstructed airflow.

Every quiet case I've ever built, has had an in-case ambient temp at least 4c over outside ambient. Doesn't sound like much.....but when blowing on a hot CPU, it matters. I've built several systems with room ambient blowing directly on the CPU. Can't be beat for an air-cooled system....

boardsportsrule · Post by **boardsportsrule** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:21 am

well since cost isn't important get a lian li pc-65B
a enermax 431 psu and a
zalman 7000a-alcu heatsink/fan
that will give u a nice looking, quiet setup

lian li are expensive, but nicest case i have used...EVER

aphonos · Post by **aphonos** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:40 pm

boardsportsrule wrote:well since cost isn't important get a lian li pc-65B
a enermax 431 psu and a
zalman 7000a-alcu heatsink/fan
that will give u a nice looking, quiet setup lian li are expensive, but nicest case i have used...EVER

boardsportsrule, Welcome to SPCR!

My apologies if this seems curt, but I would recommend that you read through (or perhaps re-read, since I learn something new just about every time I've re-read them) the Recommended Components articles. Your recommendations do not seem to be in line with the info in those articles.

The Lian-Li case has two vents right on the front bezel that will let out sound into the user's listening environment, let alone, reiterating MikeC's remarks above regarding the resonant nature of aluminum cases. Not recommended for a quiet system, though I'm glad to hear that you're quite pleased with yours.

Again, referring to the Recommended PSU article, the Enermax, despite its "ultra quiet" marketing misnomer, is a 2-fan PSU. Not recommended. There are quieter options with just as much "juice"--if juice is really what one needs.

The Zalman is a good choice.

boardsportsrule · Post by **boardsportsrule** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:44 pm

yes, but i own a enermax psu, and it is very quiet, and i currently have a lian li similiar to the one posted but bigger and it's dead quiet (watercooled tho) thanks for the welcome!!! been on other forums a long time, but i like my computers quiet so i figure i gotta get a silent forum

boardsportsrule · Post by **boardsportsrule** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:54 pm

oh yeah btw: i have just switched from a cheiftec dragon to lian li pc-71 and the pc-71 was way quieter...i dont know...it's true tho!

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:27 pm

As usual we have the unavoidable issue of what is quiet to one may be too noisy for another...

boardsportsrule, I trust you tell it as you hear it, but I suspect our reference points are not the same. It doesn't really have to do with your hearing (and I assume yours is not damaged), merely what you are used to, what you expect to hear, what you have heard. Many of us here seek SILENCE (zero dBA), think 25 dBA is pretty good and 30 dBA only just acceptable. A 21-dBA rated Panaflo 80L at 12V is considered too loud by almost everyone, and only at 7~8V when it is down to ~15 dBA is it considered OK. My own PCs are inaudible.

That's a quick intro to SPCR reference points & standards...

boardsportsrule · Post by **boardsportsrule** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:33 pm

ohhhh wow, yeah, im talking still in the 20's that's what i go for, everything in low 20's i have a buncha bgi fans but at 7 volt

LA1's are fine....damn, if ur like this then here's what i would say,

1)case- i dont know, some heavy steele one with built in noise dampening...
2) zalman 7000a-ALcu/CU
3)zalman 400 watt psu, SILENX 14dba psu, FANLESS PSU(forget model etc.) or seasonic psu...

aphonos · Post by **aphonos** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:41 pm

Mike, you're always so much more diplomatic than I. Thanks for saying what I was trying (err...needed) to say in a much nicer way.

boardsportsrule wrote:1)case- i dont know, some heavy steele one with built in noise dampening...
2) zalman 7000a-ALcu/CU
3)zalman 400 watt psu, SILENX 14dba psu, FANLESS PSU(forget model etc.) or seasonic psu...

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

('cept the Zalman may be a tad on the noisy side

)