The P180 simply isn't a quiet case - expectations too high?

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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davidstone28
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The P180 simply isn't a quiet case - expectations too high?

Post by davidstone28 » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:12 pm

I've been playing around with the P180 for the last few weeks now, and I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed. In essence, it doesn't strike me as a quiet case at all in stock form and its certainly not 'silent'.

The top and rear case fans even when set to the lowest setting are audible from over 2 metres away, and thats with the PSU chamber fan removed completely. The seeks from the HDDs (Samsung P80, Maxtor DM9 etc) are definitely noticeable, and the seek vibrations transmit themselves into the drive cage and chasis. The door magnet has already fallen off, the PSU cage is isn't ready for passive PSUs without modding, and one of the fans clicks intermittently.

The GPU cooler is just a dog's dinner of a design, there are clear sounds pathways from within the case to outside of the case, and the door is quite possibly the flimsiest thing I have ever seen (though it does reduce the noise from the optical drives slightly). Incidentally, whilst on the subject of optical drives, why didn't Antec silicon grommet the optical drive mounts? Why didn't they extend the depth of the case and try introducing a rear muffler? Why no sound deadening foam? Why are the fans hard mounted? Why is there is big hole in the top of the case to let sound out?

I have to say that I don't think its any quieter than my previous case - an aluminium (a big SPCR no-no) Lian-Li V2000 case - with suspended HDDs, Acoustipack Deluxe damped sides / HDD blocks, rubber screwed 2xNexus 120s + 1xNexus 80mm fans.

Maybe all of this is just the law of diminishing returns and I'm simply expecting too much? With the exception of the Zalman case, maybe there's no such thing as a 'silent' high performance desktop PC?

I hate to sound cynical but I'm completely unconvinced that Antec produced this case with the clear objective of producing something as silent as possible. Instead, its almost as if they didn't think that a case solely aimed at the silent market would sell in enough numbers and instead produced a 'silent' and 'high performance overclocking' hybrid of a case which must be a oxymoron in itself.

It seems to me that you have to do as much modding on this case and would have to with any other case. If you have to mod the case to the nth degree to achieve anything close to 'silence' then whats the point of buying the case in the first place? A person would be better off, building or modding a standard a case completely from scratch rather than paying £90-£100.

It seems to me that the only way to have a completely passive high performance PC is to go fanless and esentially caseless (A64, Ninja, 7800GT passive, A8N Premium etc) with some minor undervolting and mount the board horizontally to ensure that the hot components are exposed to the air. The P180 simply doesn't give me the impression that its going to make a significant or noticeable difference.

spolitta
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Re: The P180 simply isn't a quiet case - expectations too hi

Post by spolitta » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:13 pm

davidstone28 wrote:I've been playing around with the P180 for the last few weeks now, and I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed. In essence, it doesn't strike me as a quiet case at all in stock form and its certainly not 'silent'. .
you are right, I never understood why P180 was in the top of the SPCR list, specially since P150 is already out. P180 is a good case with lots of new ideas at once but its not for everyone. Its definitely not the best case for silent addicts but its an ok case for somebody who runs hot Intel dual cores, lots of hot HDs, high end SLi graphic card and yet doesn't even know HDs make noise in general.

davidstone28 wrote: The top and rear case fans even when set to the lowest setting are audible from over 2 metres away, and thats with the PSU chamber fan removed completely. The seeks from the HDDs (Samsung P80, Maxtor DM9 etc) are definitely noticeable, and the seek vibrations transmit themselves into the drive cage and chasis.
Nexus 120mm at 12v is very audible to me and tricool at LOW is even louder than that, so yes you are right the fans aren't for silent guys but they are very quiet for mainstream market.

Unfortunately the P180 HD cage isnt anything special and it actually takes the opportunity to do any DIY hd project. This was the main reason why I bought P150 only 3 weeks after P180.


davidstone28 wrote: The GPU cooler is just a dog's dinner of a design, there are clear sounds pathways from within the PC to outside of the PC, and the door is quite possibly the flimsiest thing I have ever seen (though it does reduce the noise from the optical drives slightly). Incidentally, whilst on the subject of optical drives, why didn't Antec silicon grommet the optical drive mounts? Why didn't they extend the depth of the case and try introducing a rear muffler? Why no sound deadening foam? Why are the fans hard mounted? Why is there is big hole in the top of the case to let sound out?
All those are evidence that P180 was never meant to be a serious quiet case. There are plenty of quieter cases out there.


davidstone28 wrote: Maybe all of this is just the law of diminishing returns and I'm simply expecting too much? With the exception of the Zalman case, maybe there's no such thing as a 'silent' high performance desktop PC?

I hate to sound cynical but I'm completely unconvinced that Antec produced this case with the clear objective of producing something as silent as possible. Instead, its also as if they didn't think that a case solely aimed at the silent market would sell in enough numbers and have instead tried to produce a 'silent' and 'high performance overclocking' hybrid of a case which must be a oxymoron in itself.
P180 is just a good case for very high end systems where noise is the last thing to care. Just look at its price, its defiantly not for everyone. After I installed my system in P180 and saw the result I could not believe I spend that much money on something that makes more noise and hotter temps than my previews case. Its unique design could only benefit systems that are really hot, Intel dual cores, SLi setup, 4-5 hot hard drives and things that go with that setup. I was very disappointed as you are now, but it made me use my brain a bit more in future instead of just reading posts and believing people saying that P180's lower chamber damps some HD noise.

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Post by 9000rpm » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:16 pm

I've had my Antec P180 case for a week now and I have to agree it's a mixed bag. The door is an insulting piece of crap. However, my system is reasonably more quiet than other systems I've heard so the design itself has some advantages. The finish and style of the case are generally good, too. I DO wonder how much quieter it is than other premium cases, probably only minimally and at the cost of the crappy door, I think I'd choose differently if I was choosing over again.

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Post by jaganath » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:31 pm

The top and rear case fans even when set to the lowest setting are audible from over 2 metres away
What's the lowest setting? (RPM and voltage) What kind of fans are they?
The seeks from the HDDs (Samsung P80, Maxtor DM9 etc) are definitely noticeable
The seeks (and idle) of a DM9 would be noticeable from space. Has your P80 got a JVC motor?
the PSU cage is isn't ready for passive PSUs without modding
In what respect? If for example you're thinking of using the Thermaltake Purepower fanless, I can understand you'd need to mod, as it's got a huge heatsink on the back. However the Silverstone ST30NF and Fortron Zen are normal PSUs in terms of size and shape.
there are clear sounds pathways from within the case to outside of the case,
Every air-cooled case has to have clear pathways from within the case to outside the case, otherwise how can the hot air be exhausted?
It seems to me that the only way to have a completely passive high performance PC is to go fanless and esentially caseless (A64, Ninja, 7800GT passive, A8N Premium etc) with some minor undervolting and mount the board horizontally to ensure that the hot components are exposed to the air.
It depends what you define as high-performance. Even running the above setup totally passive (ie fanless) might not be achievable depending on ambient room temperature. Some overclocked, dual-core monster is never going to run passive, no matter how hard you try. The key to easy silencing is not to choose components which force you to run uphill all the time (ie components that in stock form already put out a lot of heat). I think all of us must realise that the trend towards quieter computing has only really picked up momentum in retail computing in the last couple of years; silent pc components are still a very small part of the overall market.

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Post by davidstone28 » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:45 pm

jaganath wrote:
What's the lowest setting? (RPM and voltage) What kind of fans are they?
Noisy tri-speed ones.
The seeks (and idle) of a DM9 would be noticeable from space.
Yup. Stuck it in there to test. Idle is fine.
In what respect? If for example you're thinking of using the Thermaltake Purepower fanless, I can understand you'd need to mod, as it's got a huge heatsink on the back. However the Silverstone ST30NF and Fortron Zen are normal PSUs in terms of size and shape.
You try removing the double sided tape that Antec have superglued to the base of the PSU chamber.
Every air-cooled case has to have clear pathways from within the case to outside the case, otherwise how can the hot air be exhausted?
See General Gallery.

Steve_Y
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Re: The P180 simply isn't a quiet case - expectations too hi

Post by Steve_Y » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:41 pm

davidstone28 wrote:I've been playing around with the P180 for the last few weeks now, and I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed. In essence, it doesn't strike me as a quiet case at all in stock form and its certainly not 'silent'.
I agree, but I've yet to see a case that's particularly quiet without some modifications, the P180 requires a lot less work than most.
davidstone28 wrote:The top and rear case fans even when set to the lowest setting are audible from over 2 metres away, and thats with the PSU chamber fan removed completely.
I think Antec are aiming the P180 as much at overclockers as silent PC enthusiasts, so I can understand why they'd put in fans capable of high airflow rather than something as quiet as a Nexus. I don't see this as a big deal as fans are so easy to replace.
davidstone28 wrote:The seeks from the HDDs (Samsung P80, Maxtor DM9 etc) are definitely noticeable, and the seek vibrations transmit themselves into the drive cage and chasis.
Other than elastic suspension or maybe certain drive enclosures, are other HDD mounting methods significantly better? For a built in HDD silencing feature I think that the soft mounts in the P180 work quite well.
davidstone28 wrote:the PSU case is isn't ready for passive PSUs without modding


I'm not sure what you mean by this. If the PSU doesn't fit in the cage then you could always screw it in like with a normal case.
davidstone28 wrote:and don't even get me started about the door bulge....


The flimsy and poorly designed door is undoubtedly the worst thing about the P180 case, compared with the rest of the case it feels very cheap and nasty. Surely Antec should have noticed all it's flaws when they were testing it? According to a post in this forum Antec have updated the door with an aluminium panel on the inside of the door, I'm going to try to get a replacement from Antec and hopefully that will solve the problems.
davidstone28 wrote:The GPU cooler is just a dog's dinner of a design


The graphics cooling duct is completely useless for anyone who wants silent computing, but it's easy enough to remove so I don't really consider it a point against the case. The graphics cooling ducts and side panel holes in other cases don't seem much more useful for someone who wants low noise.
davidstone28 wrote:there are clear sounds pathways from within the case to outside of the case


Unless you're going to block much of the airflow in a case I think that's pretty much inevitable.
davidstone28 wrote:Incidentally, whilst on the subject of optical drives, why didn't Antec silicon grommet the optical drive mounts?


I've heard that soft mounting optical drives causes problems with accurately reading discs. With a layer of sound damping on the top half of the door and on the side panels at the side of the 5.25 bays you can block a fair amount of optical drive noise. One other thing that helped with optical drive noise was pushing some thin rubber washers under the rear of the drive. That fixed it in place more securely as the drive rails allowed a little movement and it definitely reduced vibration noise a little.
davidstone28 wrote:Why didn't they extend the depth of the case and try introducing a rear muffler?


Many people consider the P180 to be too large as it is, also I've heard that mufflers tend to reduce airflow. Low speed fans and as little as possible to block airflow is generally the best option in my opinion.
davidstone28 wrote:Why no sound deadening foam?


I imagine that would add to the cost significantly and I doubt that most people would consider it worthwhile. People here tend to be much more silence obsessed than the average PC user, yet most of the computers on display in the gallery don't have sound damping foam applied.
davidstone28 wrote:Why are the fans hard mounted?


Good question. It seems strange that Antec would put in soft pads to stop the case panels vibrating, yet then mount the fans in such a primitive way when many soft mounting options are available. Still, it's fixed easily enough so I don't consider this a big issue.
davidstone28 wrote:Why is there is big hole in the top of the case to let sound out?


It would be nice if Antec included a cover for the hole for the people who don't want to use it, but personally I think that the top fan hole was a good idea. It allows for excellent cooling for overclockers, I know someone who bought a P180 purely for the 2 120mm fans close to the CPU. Many people who are after a low noise PC may cover it and just use the rear fan, but I've seen some impressive configurations that do away with the extractor fans all together and leave the top hole open for convection cooling, have a look at these systems for example: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=24878 or http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=24654. I'm considering trying something like that for myself, it's nice to have that option without having to take a Dremel to the case.
davidstone28 wrote:I have to say that I don't think its any quieter than my previous case - an aluminium (an big SPCR no-no) Lian-Li V2000 case - with suspended HDDs, Acoustipack Deluxe damped sides / HDD blocks, rubber screwed 2xNexus 120s + 1xNexus 80mm fans.


If an unmodified P180 isn't any more noisy than a modified system like that then I think the P180 is doing pretty well. Put those soft mounted Nexus fans in the P180 and I think you'd notice a big difference compared with the stock Antec fans.
davidstone28 wrote:I hate to sound cynical but I'm completely unconvinced that Antec produced this case with the clear objective of producing something as silent as possible. Instead, its also as if they didn't think that a case solely aimed at the silent market would sell in enough numbers and have instead tried to produce a 'silent' and 'high performance overclocking' hybrid of a case which must be a oxymoron in itself.


I think Antec are pretty open about that fact, it is part of their 'Performance Series' after all. Personally I think Antec have done a very good job of making a case that's both easy to silence and overclocker friendly. There's obviously room for improvement, but apart from the door problems (which are mainly cosmetic rather than noise related) most of the issues you've listed are easy to fix and in my opinion quite insignificant.
davidstone28 wrote:It seems to me that you have to do as much modding on this case and would have to with any other case. If you have to mod the case to the nth degree to achieve anything close to 'silence' then whats the point of buying the case in the first place?


I totally disagree that other cases are just as easy to silence. The P180's layered panels block more noise than the sheet metal of other cases, not all cases have multiple 120mm fan mounts, and mounting the PSU and hard disks in a separate chamber away from the CPU would require quite a lot of modding (if it's possible at all) in most other cases. Overall I think those features are worth the money, I haven't found another case that equals it.

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Post by MikeC » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:07 pm

One thing the P180 doesn't do is let you ignore the first rule about cases in PC silencing which I stated many years ago in the Recommended Cases article: Cases don't make noise by themselves. In fact, a case is silent until you put things that make noise inside it.

The P180 definitely has flaws -- like every case I've come across. Some are errors in execution; others are due to lack of experience with new materials/techniques.

I agree that the VGA duct is a failure -- I am relieved to say it's one part of the case I had nothing to do with. It was a total surprise to me when I came across it in the first prototype that was shipped to me. By then, I think they'd already invested too much time/money in tooling to eliminate it altogether. It had been developed for the Sonata II, I believe, and Antec wanted to use it in all their new designs, the then-shelved P150 included.

Execution errors:
1) maybe the Tricool fans are too noisy; they definitely should not have been hard-mounted. I don't know why they chose not to soft-grommet them. This definitely makes a difference.
2) The opening / cable management between the two chambers could have been better done.
3) It would have been nice to include blocks to cover the top vent and the extra vents around the PSU.

Design Problems
4) The case did not anticipate SLI/dual vidcards w/ power upwards of
100W, and the complex duct helps not at all in this regard.

Unanticipated problems:
5) Temperature variance effects on the dual-layer front panel. The warping door never showed up as an issue in the several samples I saw (and still has not in any of the 4 samples that have passed through my hands). I am not sure that this could have been anticipated without much more rigorous testing, which maybe shouold have been done.

In retrospect, the multi-layer panels may have been overkill. They worked in the small panels of the Antec Aria, but they might be too expensive and not quite effective enough in the large panels of the P180. Certainly the multi-ply construction seems to have caused niggling issues all along. Now that Antec has played with plastic damping on steel panels (P150), this may be the way they'll go in future. It seems simpler, cheaper and perhaps effective enough, acoustically.

Facts:
1) The case was never designed specifically with fanless PSUs in mind, and 80mm fan PSUs were commonplace when it was being developed. There were no high power fanless PSUs then. I am still not a fan of fanless PSUs, I've always held this position: You have to be very careful and very good (as a system builder) to get good use out of them.
2) the top vent is an integral part of the design -- a key goal being quiet cooling for VERY HOT CPU systems (particularly Intel). With a super hot CPU, the thing still runs pretty quiet when equipped with a decent HS. Compared unmodified against other top cases released at the same time (and since), I think it compares well in this regard. You might get as quiet or as cool, but not both.
3) the complexity of this case, especially the multilayer panels, makes it very costly to build. AFAIK, some of the online prices I've seen are below the price I can buy it for (they granted me the option to buy at "best wholesale" prices). No idea how/why they do this... I guess they're hoping for repeat traffic or something... There does not seem to be much margin for anyone involved in the distribution/sale of the P180.... but this is conjecture.
4) Ultimate silence was never a singular goal, this was expressly stated in my very first info article about the P180. It always was meant to serve both the OCer and the silencer.

Finally, I think better cases will come, and maybe your expectations are too high. This case really is too complex for many, yet doesn't go far enough for others. The P180 is a step in an evolutionary process, and jaganath is dead on when he says the industry is still early in this move towards quieter computers. (Even though you may feel you've been at it a long time -- and I've been at it for nearly 6 years now). It may never become truly mainstream; as long as noise is not seen as an important design goal by engineering, marketing and management it will not be.
Last edited by MikeC on Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by JazzJackRabbit » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:12 pm

davidstone28
I disagree with you. I think P180 is a very good choice for a quiet case. Consider this, how many cases cost stock as much as P180 but are quiter then it? There are plenty of cases that are both more expensive and a lot more louder than P180.

Stock fans, true, they are way too loud even at low. But since you want silence, what did you really expect? Stock fans are always loud, that's why ppl replace then with YL or Nexus. Seeks from HDD are audible? They are going to be audible in any system quiet enough because even if properly decoupled from the case there is still airborne noise. Personally I found P180 drive cage an excellent solution. While I haven't tested how much seek induced vibration is transmitted to the case, but it completely dampens vibrational noise. There is slight vibration in the drive cage, but I'm not sure is that's from the hard dries or from the soft-mounted fans.

GPU duct? Throw it away, it will only take 2 minutes to dismantle it, big problem. I agree with the door though, it is flimsy and bulge problem is quite ugly. Why no silicon mounts for the optical drives? Because it's bad for CD/DVD writing, the optical pickup has harder time focusing on the track. Personally I'm quite happy they hardmounted OD. I agree with you on the foam, rear muffler and top vent issues, but once again, how many cases come with both rear muffler and foam installed already?

Compared to your previous case, consider how much you had to do to silence it, you had to dampen the sidepanels, you had to soft mount HDDs, you had to soft mount fans. If P180 stock is slightly worse than V2000 it's good sign. Throw in some Nexuses, cover top air vent, softmount fans and you got yourself a very nice system with minimum effort.

Zalman TNN cases provide no cooling for HDDs, I wouldn't dare use anything but 2.5 laptop HDDs with that case due to the overheating issues, and consider than it costs near a grand, you are limited with the CPU and GPU choice, it's definitely not a case for high performance desktop PC. It simply doesn't have enough cooling potential for the latest hardware. Not to mention you must have airconditioning otherwise your system goes south during the summer.

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Re: The P180 simply isn't a quiet case - expectations too hi

Post by UnitedConfusion » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:15 pm

davidstone28 wrote:It seems to me that the only way to have a completely passive high performance PC is to go fanless and esentially caseless (A64, Ninja, 7800GT passive, A8N Premium etc) [...]
That's the entire point -- a case offers the foundation for silence. It does not produce silence by itself. The primary goal of my latest build was silence while maintaining performance. This was due to my previous, extremely obnoxious build, detailed under 'recent example'.

To that end, I ordered the following:
Antec P180
ASUS A8N-SLi Premium
AMD Athlon 4200+ X2
Scythe Ninja
SeaSonic 430
2 x Nexus 120mm fans -- undervolted using SeaSonic's included cable fan cable
eVGA 7800GTX


Initially, I could not hear the system. However, I soon adapted to the level of noise, and the graphics card revealed itself as the most prominent source. It was the one 'risk' I took during my build. With a passive card, it would virtually silent; though, I'm sure I'd start hearing the hard drives or the PSU eventually. With the replacement of each "loud" component, a softer but equally annoying source is likely to reveal itself sooner or later.

Recent example:
Antec P150 w/ stock PSU
Intel P4 3.0ghz (Northwood)
Scythe Ninja
1 x Nexus 120mm fans + 1 x case stock fan -- both undervolted
eVGA 128-A8-N304-LX Geforce FX5200 128MB (passive)


The Ninja replaced Artic Cooling's Freezer 4; the P150 replaced an old, all aluminum Cooler Master case and associated PSU (cannot find model #). The eVGA 128 replaced an ATi 9800 -- extremely loud, as the fan always ran @ 100%. Total: ~$300. Worth every penny.

Result? Quieter than my P180 system. The old Cooler Master case, while very pretty, proved to be vibration city (obnoxious). These system were built and/or updated based solely on the recommendations of the SPCR reviewers, and I personally believe the results speak (sound?) for themselves. Thus, SPCR is on the short list of websites that I actually trust for hardware reviews.

I'd recommend using a combination of SPCR reviews -- Case, case fan, heatsink, harddrive and PSU -- as a solid foundation for a near-silent computer. Don't expect a case alone to work it's magic.
Last edited by UnitedConfusion on Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by nici » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:19 pm

My comlaints about the P180 are the bulging door and size, its HUGE on the outside but still it has very little room to do any custom stuff inside.

I just installed everything i had in the P180 into a P150, except for the PSU, and HDD idle noise is lower though still not inaudible. Temps are almost exactly the same, some are even lower than in the P180. But i think thats because i still have the stock tri-cool at low in the back, wich moves more air than the CoolerMaster fan as it was undervolted.

The NeoHE seems to work just fine and is almost inaudible when i have the tricool stopped, the character of the noise is very good too. The noise of the Neo is lower or at least very close the idle noise of the HDDs. Im psoting tired again, and i´ve noticed my hearing gets much poorer when im tired.

Now P150 or P180? I´d get the 50, even if they vere both the same price and had no PSU.

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Post by MikeC » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:46 pm

nici wrote:Now P150 or P180? I´d get the 50, even if they vere both the same price and had no PSU.
With your components this may well be true. Go to a 3.8 GHz Prescott or a hot Intel dualcore, 4 HDDs and a red hot vidcard. I'll put my money on the P180 for both cooling and noise if we're talking unmodded to unmodded. Even with modding, the P180 would be easier to keep cool/quiet with such a system.

It's not a clear either/or. There is really no one best for all systems/situations , and you have to admit both of these cases must be high on the short list for anyone interested in making a quiet computer.

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Post by spolitta » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:20 pm

MikeC wrote: 4) Ultimate silence was never a singular goal, this was expressly stated in my very first info article about the P180. It always was meant to serve both the OCer and the silencer.
Yes it wasn't, neither antec's marketing was aimed at total silence, but for some strange reasons SPCR forum members started thinking that P180 was the ultimate quiet case. When I first started reading SPCR forum it was about 4 months before P180 was released, I don't know you remember but every case related question was ended up with this phrase "wait for the P180". Maybe it was the SPCR version of the case that made some think P180 was the ultimate silent case, or maybe the fact that it was on the top of the recommended list (even after P150 was released).


Maybe in the review conclusion should have been said that this case might not be for everyone. and I quote myself "Its unique design could only benefit systems that are really hot, Intel dual cores, SLi setup, 4-5 hot hard drives and things that go with that setup."

There are still usual people out there thinking they should get P180 while they really have a basic non-OCed setup. I usually respond to such threads by saying P180 is overkill for them. I don't want people to lose money and time on P180 like I did.

At the end I hoped Antec could have used Mike's knowledge on a case that would be better for silent ethuasists than OCers. Maybe you should collab again but this time go for the ultimate quiet case, but then again there is the naughty P150.

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Post by nici » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:49 pm

MikeC wrote:
nici wrote:Now P150 or P180? I´d get the 50, even if they vere both the same price and had no PSU.
With your components this may well be true. Go to a 3.8 GHz Prescott or a hot Intel dualcore, 4 HDDs and a red hot vidcard. I'll put my money on the P180 for both cooling and noise if we're talking unmodded to unmodded. Even with modding, the P180 would be easier to keep cool/quiet with such a system.
I totally agree with you on this one. But since im not planning on going Intel dual core and SLI with seven Raptors, ill stick with the fifty :) The P150 is probably a better choice for most people, assuming that most people run something else than the latest and greatest components. Its a case id choose if i was to build a computer to a friend for example.
MikeC wrote: It's not a clear either/or. There is really no one best for all systems/situations , and you have to admit both of these cases must be high on the short list for anyone interested in making a quiet computer.


Ain´t saying the P180 is bad, i still think its a good case but as said earlier it depends on what you put in it. For a system like mine the P150 is better. I´ve built, or mostly rebuilt, systems a lot and the 150 is by far the easiest case to work with, the cablehooks are great, i didnt cut meself once, and the sleeved modular cables on the Neo are great. I think the cables just vanished when i put it together, no need for a bag of zipties even :) Now if it only was black... :lol:

Oh and it would be really nice if i could open the front panel without opening the side first.

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Post by MikeC » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:56 pm

Its unique design could only benefit systems that are really hot
Nonsense. The P180 is equal to the P150 acoustically with every type of system -- except in HDD noise. The elastic suspension of the P150 is better than the silicon rubber grommets of the P180, so unless you have a very low vibration drive the P150 will damp this noise better. But any fan cooled PSU is quieter in the P180 under a wider range of conditions than in any other case. This is clearly an advantage for any system in which you want unvarying quiet. You may recall Ralf Hutter, who wrote the P150 review, mention how the PSU ramped up in his P150 system... until he built a PSU fresh air intake duct for it. This generally does not happen in a P180 until you get well past 200W load in typical <25C room ambient.

Both the P150 and P180 are very well optimized for housing low noise systems; each has a strength the other doesn't, and the P180 is able to maintain low noise with a wider range of systems (read: hotter) as well.

In any case, the benefits of the P180 are available in any type of system -- YMMV based on your own expertise & understanding of quiet computing.

mathias
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Post by mathias » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:15 pm

Although running 4 or more hard drives is generally bad for silence, I don't see any problem with having 4 or more hard drives. Whether it's for a spare OS, data backup, or storing stuff you don't need to have access to all the time.

But 4 laptop drives should still be very quiet. And AFAIK 4 80 gig spinpoints are much cheaper than 2 160 gig momentuses.

An additional benefit from the 2 exhaust fan slots: one can be ducted to the CPU fan while the other has an extra fan running at a very low speed.

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Post by josephclemente » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:05 pm

I have been very happy with the P180. I have owned a number of cases and have made all of them very quiet, but the P180 is by far the easiest case I've ever used to reach my goals.

This applies to any case: if anyone is having problems with hard drive seeks transmitting to the hard drive cage or chassis, double check the cables. Even with suspension or soft mounting, all it takes is a SATA or power cable header to touch something else and cause some annoying chatter.

gbeichho
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Post by gbeichho » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:12 pm

OK, so I just finished moving my old machine to a P180. The objective of this machine is to be my file server. Super quiet, relatively low power, and lots of big HDs -- that's why I went w/ P180 -- way more HD space.

Firstly, this SITE ROCKS. I've been reading for over 3 years and if it wasn't for you guys, I'd be leaking radiator fluid all over my floor in my futile attempts to silence my computer (I still own a hydor pump... anyone interested... never used)

Here is what I changed immediately:

1) removed VGA duct -- no sweat there, I didn't waste any time after reading the reviews -- actually the 2 screws holding the VGA duct work well for mounting Zalman Fanmates
2) Replaced the fans w/ Nexus 120mm and Zalman Fanmates running at lowest setting so they'll start up
3) Taped up the surrounding PSU ducts and VGA duct

Basic Machine:
Scythe Ninja, AMD64 3000+, 3 HDs (2 x 7K50 Hitachi, 1 Seagate 160GB), AIW 9800 Pro w/ VGA silencer, SS400 PSU

Here are my observations:
1) I never though my computer could get so quiet!
2) That HD mounting works really well (2 Hitachi 7K50 and 1 Seagate 160). Not as good as suspended, but damn close. I have to disagree with Ralf's note on another thread. Those silicone grommets work really well especially if you just hand tighten the screws.
3) I am running Prime 95 for hours now, no accelerated PSU, CPU @ 48C
4) I ran 3dMark03 and still no PSU ramping -- my VGA silencer is on low, and the video card didn't overheat.
5) My furnace duct is louder as is my work laptop

My Main Complaints:
1) Warped door -- O well, I don't care so much about looks
2) No cover for the top hole (if I leave it uncovered, it sucks air -- I left the tricool there, but not running, I've used it to tie some wires to hold the ninja up -- I never like the weight of that sucker)
3) No soft fan mountings... O well, if I could find a good Canadian source for EAR grommets I'd be all set.
4) What happened to the chassis speaker? Call me old school (I still have a floppy too) but I want a chassis speaker -- have you ever tried buying one of those... Can't find any retailers for that yet --> I should take the one from the AMB3800
5) It Weigh's a TON fully loaded. It should really have some built in handles, because the weight combined with the really nice sticky feet make it impossible to move around.

Things I learned that I haven't seen posted here:
1) Don't assume that round floppy/IDE connectors are better -- I couldn't figure at first out why Ralf still used the ribbons when clearly they are bigger -- ribbons bend a lot easier and can be bent/moved to smaller places
2) I needed that PSU fan when running 3 HDs down below. My burning hot Seagate was up over 50C with just my SS400 pushing air. Now it's at 41 with the Nexus.
3) BEWARE, Nexus 120MM don't start on lowest fanmate setting!
4) Don't use WD40 to take off old thermal grease -- I lost 2 hours researching how to get the WD40 residue off
5) SATA connectors SUCK -- they are flimsy, break easily, and slip off easily, though I still use them
6) eSATA rocks -- anyone know a Canadian retailer selling eSATA brackets?
7) No matter how big the case is, it isn't big enough if you have a Ninja :)
8 ) If you have large fingers, get someone else to put together your computer
9) Head band flashlights are the best for fiddling in cases
10) Thank God I'm not a cable Nazi. I have no idea how Ralf get's his cases looking so nice!

Now I'm waiting for my backordered P150 to arrive so I can build my new main machine (2 HDs only, AMD64 X2 4400, Thermalright XP-120).

I think that ANTEC has done a fantastic job with cases overall. I will certainly keep buying their stuff.

gstar42
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Help! I am totally confused now! P150 or P180?

Post by gstar42 » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:16 pm

I'm trying to build a fairly quiet media pc but I don't expect total silence.

I am going nuts deciding between the Antec P150 and P180 (with the same Antec Neo430 PSU). I'd really like to use the P150 since it's smaller and sounds much easier to build but I'm worried about the heat and therefore causing all the fans to ramp up.

What should I do? :?:

I already have Intel D945PSN board and Intel D 820 processor (dual core) and Seagate 300GB SATA drive. I don't plan on changing any of these. I don't plan on overclocking.

I plan on replacing the stock CPU fan with a Zalman CNPS9500 LED and adding a DVD writer (Benq 1655?), Video PVR (Hauppage WinTV-PVR-150?) and a generic PCI Express video card (recommendations?) that can ouput HiDef to my Sony tv (inputs: video, S video, conponent video (1080i, 480p, 480i), and 2GB DDR2 memory. I may add an additional large SATA but don't expect to have more than 2 drives.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions...

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Post by computergeek22 » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:25 pm

Since there are incompatibilities with certain mobos and the neohe, I would personally go for the p180 and spend the extra $25 on some nexus 120mm fans.

gbeichho
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Post by gbeichho » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:33 pm

What OS do you plan to run? If you're going to use Windows, I would consider the AIW series, as it will come w/ tuner and I believe the component output you're looking for. I suspect you can get a model that won't burn up your system. Then you won't need the Hauppauge card.

If it's Linux, you pretty much want to go with NVidia + Hauppauge. I know that you can get fanless LOW POWER FX5200 cards (no gaming, this is what I just bought), but no component output.

The higher power video cards will obviously draw more power, and add more heat, even if they are fanless. I think your case choice could be swayed by your video card selection. I definately feel that the P180 has a much better chance at keeping the PSU fan running slow and quiet. How loud is the room going to be?

Excerpted http://htpcnews.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9263
If you are going to use an ATI component adapter you need a Radeon 8500 or a Radeon 9500 or higher (this includes the 9550, which is really a 9600 GPU clocked lower), this also includes the x300 and x600 series for PCI Express. For the 8500 or 9600 All-in-Wonder cards you need the VGA to Component adapter, for all others ATI requires the DVI to Component adapter. For quick guide on using the ATI adapter see this guide.
The All-in-Wonder 9700 series, 9800 series and the newest generation of ATI cards (x700 and x800) have a multipurpose DIN connector that can carry s-video or component via a breakout cable, so the aftermarket adapter is not needed. Be aware that not all manufacturers choose to enable the component output, the DIN may be s-video only.

NVIDIA is now shipping cards with native component output. The most common cards are GeForce 6600 or 6600GT based cards. They have a multipurpose DIN connector that can carry s-video or component video via a dongle. Be aware that not all manufacturers choose to enable the component output, the DIN may be s-video only. XFX 6600GT and all ASUS cards are known to NOT have the component output. Some models by AOpen, Chaintech, Gigabyte, and Jaton may also not include the output adapter. So please double check!

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Post by ronrem » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:43 pm

The Antec and Artic Cooling cases made SOME effort to be a bit quieter than usual. Are they ideal? Hell,I can take an old junkyard full tower,spend a LOT of design and construction time and end up with a much quieter case. ...also a lot bigger and heavier.

I have a huge OLD case,seems to have been a server for a 486 based system with big (size not capacity) SCSI drives,has wheels and a handle for pulling it around. Inside I can put 2 full systems,if at least one is mini-atx. I likely will do it with just a single system,for now. I keep changing the plans around...so I don't know when it will get done.

I got another large case I may mod,as it's a simpler layout. It came in a package,and I wanted the CD burner and scanner...everything cost $25.
By the time I do a vent system,double walls,special inlet vents,a front door etc,i likely put in enough labor that a P180 would seem cheap.

davidstone28
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Post by davidstone28 » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:35 am

ronrem wrote:The Antec and Artic Cooling cases made SOME effort to be a bit quieter than usual. Are they ideal? Hell,I can take an old junkyard full tower,spend a LOT of design and construction time and end up with a much quieter case. ...also a lot bigger and heavier.
spolitta wrote:
Yes it wasn't, neither antec's marketing was aimed at total silence, but for some strange reasons SPCR forum members started thinking that P180 was the ultimate quiet case. When I first started reading SPCR forum it was about 4 months before P180 was released, I don't know you remember but every case related question was ended up with this phrase "wait for the P180". Maybe it was the SPCR version of the case that made some think P180 was the ultimate silent case, or maybe the fact that it was on the top of the recommended list (even after P150 was released).

Maybe in the review conclusion should have been said that this case might not be for everyone. and I quote myself "Its unique design could only benefit systems that are really hot, Intel dual cores, SLi setup, 4-5 hot hard drives and things that go with that setup."
I think the P180 has been massively overhyped by alot of people on this forum. Thread after thread, long review after long review. To be fair to them the hype was probably inadvertent - its understandable that everyone got excited by this case (I certainly did) given its a new design, new type of materials used, interesting innovations etc.

But the P180 simply is not a quiet or 'silent' case and its moves the silencing game forward very little, if at all. A large bucket of very cold water needs to thrown on the idea that the P180 is going to help in producing a 'silent' system for those seeking ultimate quietness.

What I would have liked to have seen more of, are comments similar to those make by Spolitta ie it can reduce the noise of a already ultra hot/noisy Prescott type system by improved cooling but isn't going to do anything to reduce the noise of an already quiet system.

Maybe it would be a good idea to have some sort of weighting scale for products to give people a clearer idea of what sort of impact a particular component would make on overall system noise? For example, a passive graphics card/CPU cooler is likely to make a significant difference so that might socre 'high impact', whereas a case would have a 'low impact' on overall system noise etc
Last edited by davidstone28 on Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

Shadowknight
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Post by Shadowknight » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:09 am

The only reason I got the P180 was because of
1. Thicker panels to help block noise
2. Separating the PSU and CPU zones

Problem with it:
1. No cap for the top of the case
2. Wiring in the bottom for the hard drives is slightly difficult - but that's because I use a Smartdrive on foam and am a cable nazi, so instead of plugging things in and let them be, I have to have funky twists and turns to keep them out of the way - my own fault
3. VGA duct; useless.

Otherwise, never seen the big deal over this case, really. Panels are FAR better than the 3700AMB, and I've put Acoustipack on both. Actually, the P180 panels undampened are still better than the 3700AMB WITH dampening.

As for the P150
1. Can't afford it right now
2. I have a fanless PSU I am happy with, so I don't need another
3. Need confirmation the PSU compatibility issues have been fixed so I'm not screwed in the future. More importantly, I currently have an Asus board which is the company that's motherboards won't work with the current version of the Neo anyway.
4. I use a Smartdrive for my Samsung drive, and may get another in the future - for HARDCORE silencers, this makes the suspension option useless - if you don't enclose, it's a nice option to include, but for those seeking the quietest system, it's not going to be used
5. Cable system sounds... okay, but I haven't really been impressed by it in reviews. Careful cabling can get the same effect without the need for hooks.
6. Plastic paneling - no idea how effective it is compared to the P180
Last edited by Shadowknight on Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MikeC
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Post by MikeC » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:33 am

davidstone28 wrote:What I would have liked to have seen more of, are comments similar to those make by Spolitta and MikeC above ie it can reduce the noise of a already ultra hot/noisy Prescott type system by improved cooling but isn't going to do anything to reduce the noise of an already quiet system.
:roll: You got it wrong, I didn't say that. Build a system with super quiet components in another case. With the same components, I'll build a quieter, cooler system in the P180 with less effort. Yup, that's a challenge.

mathias
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Post by mathias » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:53 am

If the P180 isn't a quiet case, then what is?

How can you be making judgements on how good a P180 is for an ultimate quiet system when you don't even use notebook hard drives?

Aris
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Post by Aris » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:25 am

the problem is, is too many people just buy whatever, not thinking things through from a thermal standpoint BEFOREHAND, throw it all together and then complain that its loud and that the enclosure doesnt work good for them in their specific situation.

key word "specific situations". no manufacturer is ever going to design cases for individuals, its just not cost effective with todays current technology. now you may get lucky and have the mainstream mindset that just happens to coencide with the release of an enclosure that fits exactly what you want. but that wont be true for most silent enthusiasts on this forum.

because of this nature of "specific situations", it thus requires the individuals to make individual changes to his/her case to accomplish their specific goals, both acoustically and thermally. AKA: modding.

the p180 has some strong points in its favor. i think antec did a fairly good job at comming up with a full size tower that will be good for both the hardcore overclocker as well as the noise concious. i dont believe however that it is a good case for silent enthusiasts at all. it implimented some good new techniques and changes, but the overall design concept just doesnt have "quiet" as its #1 priority. i think alot of people get "thermal design" and "acoustic design" mixed up. granted they effect each other, but they are still seperate design concepts. the p180 does a great job thermally, just not acoustically. its a very fine line that is hard to mass produce. i dont know if i've ever seen a case do it perfectly.

----------------------------------------

me personally, i dont like the p180 at all. i think its a huge step backwards to a time where monolithic cases were all the rage, and you could never have too many optical/hard drive or expansion slots.

/start-rant
think about it, how many optical drives do you REALLY need? me personally, i only use my optical drives to install software, and occasionally rip some music. 99% of the time they just sit in their doing nothing. then theirs hard drives. i dont know about you, but my 120gb drive only has 40gb of data on it, and now i can get notebook drives that are just as big or larger at a fraction of the size/noise/heat. the ONLY things i can think of that would fill the large capacity hard drives being produced today is video content, very large amounts of mp3's, or a large file server. even then, 2 hard drives can get you up to a terabyte. lastly theirs expansion slots on the motherboard. there was a day not to long ago when i would never buy a board with onboard ANYTHING! the motherboard industry has done very well since then and i believe most onboard devices are very good. the only exceptions being video and sometimes audio. right now i have a full atx mobo, and i have 1 card in it, and its a video card. the onboard audio is good enough for me. even if it werent, that would be a max of 2 expansion slots needed.

so what does that leave us with? 1 optical drive to install software, a notebook hard drive, and 2 expansion slots on the motherboard (mabey 1 if the audio is good). you can slim the size down even more if you move to a slim optical drive. so what form factor fits this new hardware requirments? mini-itx. 6.7"x6.7" mobo with 1 expansion slot. the biggest thing knocken mini-itx in the past was the lack of a video expansion slot. industrial technology and mainstream technology has finally merged however. PCI and AGP are both being replaced with the same expansion slot: PCI-Express. you can now get mini-itx motherboards with a high speed 16x pci-express expansion slot. they make boards that support everything from low power cpu's like VIA and Pentium-M's all the way up to the heat-monster P4's.

so why waist all that space on a huge monstrosity like the p180 when you can get the exact same performance and usability out of somthing 1/15th the size?
/end-rant

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Post by Shadowknight » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:44 am

so why waist all that space on a huge monstrosity like the p180 when you can get the exact same performance and usability out of somthing 1/15th the size?
/end-rant
The 4 5.25 bays are common from any case manufacturer. As to the usage: I use a fan controller and 2 optical drives. On occasion I'll do a direct copy from drive to drive, or it's more efficient for me to be able to reference information from two CDs/DVDs at the same time. Moreover, some people get those soundcontroller things like with the higher end Soundblaster, LAN devices that hold extra screws and an ACTUAL cupholder!

The CM Stacker exists for a reason; some people really do need all of that space and it has a popularity in some circles because the people really do need the space

As the the P180 size, because the PSU is in the bottom to separate the thermal zones, the case MUST be bigger than a normal one. Like it or hate it, that's the reason it's so big. My CPU temps are a bit lower because it's no longer next to my passive PSU, and having ANY PSU separated from receiving heat from the components beneath it will keep it cooler, and cooler components tend to have longer lives than ones that are run at higher temps.

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Post by Ralf Hutter » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:07 am

Aris wrote: /start-rant
think about it, how many optical drives do you REALLY need? me personally, i only use my optical drives to install software, and occasionally rip some music. 99% of the time they just sit in their doing nothing. then theirs hard drives. i dont know about you, but my 120gb drive only has 40gb of data on it, and now i can get notebook drives that are just as big or larger at a fraction of the size/noise/heat. the ONLY things i can think of that would fill the large capacity hard drives being produced today is video content, very large amounts of mp3's, or a large file server. even then, 2 hard drives can get you up to a terabyte. lastly theirs expansion slots on the motherboard. there was a day not to long ago when i would never buy a board with onboard ANYTHING! the motherboard industry has done very well since then and i believe most onboard devices are very good. the only exceptions being video and sometimes audio. right now i have a full atx mobo, and i have 1 card in it, and its a video card. the onboard audio is good enough for me. even if it werent, that would be a max of 2 expansion slots needed.

so what does that leave us with? 1 optical drive to install software, a notebook hard drive, and 2 expansion slots on the motherboard (mabey 1 if the audio is good). you can slim the size down even more if you move to a slim optical drive. so what form factor fits this new hardware requirments? mini-itx. 6.7"x6.7" mobo with 1 expansion slot. the biggest thing knocken mini-itx in the past was the lack of a video expansion slot. industrial technology and mainstream technology has finally merged however. PCI and AGP are both being replaced with the same expansion slot: PCI-Express. you can now get mini-itx motherboards with a high speed 16x pci-express expansion slot. they make boards that support everything from low power cpu's like VIA and Pentium-M's all the way up to the heat-monster P4's.

so why waist all that space on a huge monstrosity like the p180 when you can get the exact same performance and usability out of somthing 1/15th the size?
/end-rant
Amen bro! I agree 1000%.

Now, start looking for a mini-ATX sort of case that is constructed decently, and has good airflow. I haven't been able to come up with anything that I'd be comfortable using. The closet contenders are the In-Win mini-ATX cases, and they're fairly cheaply constructed, and look sort of cheesy as well.

The best thing I've come up with so far is the P150. It's about as small as you can get for a "full" ATX case, is built like a brick shit-house and is well designed.


Oh, and back OT. MikeC's original reply to davidstone28's dissing of the P180 is right-on. I can't think of anything else to add, other than to reiterate two points: 1) All cases are silent until you put components inside of them, and 2) Antec did not design (nor market) the P180 as the ultimate silent case. It's a compromise. IIRC, the Antec Rep himself stated this.

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Post by davidstone28 » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:25 am

MikeC: Post edited. No need to get so defensive, fella.
mathias wrote: How can you be making judgements on how good a P180 is for an ultimate quiet system when you don't even use notebook hard drives?
Because the P80s, whether suspended, on foam blocks or enclosed, aren't anywhere close to being the noisiest thing in my system. The P180 makes minimal or no difference to an already quiet system. That's what I've saying throughout the entire thread. I'm not saying its a bad case, I'm simply saying that it doesn't advance the silencing game.

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Post by Steve_Y » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:46 am

davidstone28 wrote:The P180 makes minimal or no difference to an already quiet system. That's what I've saying throughout the entire thread. I'm not saying its a bad case, I'm simply saying that it doesn't advance the silencing game.
That may be true when it comes to your system, but for other people the difference can be significant.

Switching to the P180 cooled down my PSU significantly, it's virtually inaudible in the P180 while I could clearly hear it before. The door and case panels have noticeably reduced noise from the optical drives and hard disk. I can run the CPU and case fans at a slower speed in the P180 due to it's superior cooling compared with my old case. My system was already quiet, now it's almost silent from a few feet away, I don't consider that an insignificant difference.

Far from being over-hyped I think the P180 deserves all the praise it has recieved in the reviews on this site and posts on this forum.

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