Is Antec P180 best case for silence?

krille · Post by **krille** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:40 am

For low-noise systems? HTPC? High-end systems? Etc?

Thanks ~ Kris

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:30 pm

It's a good choice if you don't mind ending up with a big heavy expensive box. It doesn't come with a power supply; many people pair it with an Antec Phantom. The fans that come with it are rather loud; most people replace them, typically with Nexus or Scythe.

The Antec P150 (which does come with a power supply) is fairly popular here, too.

krille · Post by **krille** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:19 pm

cmthomson wrote:It's a good choice if you don't mind ending up with a big heavy expensive box. It doesn't come with a power supply; many people pair it with an Antec Phantom. The fans that come with it are rather loud; most people replace them, typically with Nexus or Scythe.

The Antec P150 (which does come with a power supply) is fairly popular here, too.

Thanks for your reply cmthomson!

I think I'll go with the Antec P180. Probably the SPCR Special Edition (black looks better and I'm supporting SPCR while I'm at it - $40 more expensive though). I may even purchase a second one for my dad.

A big heavy expensive box doesn't bother me at all, as long as I won't have to move it around too much (it's a small tradeoff for silence). And I've already got a suitable PSU (Seasonic S12-600) and it does just fine (it's quiet too!). I'm a bit sceptical to passive PSUs overall (and as I understand, once the 80mm fan of the Antec Phantom spins up, it's actually louder than the Seasonic S12-series). As for fans, I've already bought enough Nexus fans for two cases (I plan on only using a single 120mm for exhaust per case).

I don't know anything about the Antec P150 though. What would be the reasons to go P150 over P180? What are the advantages P150 has over P180? Disadvantages? Differences?

Thanks!

~ Kris

BigA · Post by **BigA** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:10 pm

Please refer to the SPCR reviews of these cases for details on each. Some of the more significant differences between the P180 and the P150 (besides styling) are:

P180:
* Composite side panels minimize vibration
* Separate airflow for PSU, requires longer power cables than traditional ATX implementations.
* Larger case than P150
* Overall, airflow and damping can make the P180 the quietest mainstream case available.

P150:
* Side panels are damped with foam
* Includes Neo HE power supply (a good power supply if it is compatible with your system -- search the forum for discussions about the P150 power supply).
* Elastic drive suspension minimizes vibration
* Probably not quite as quiet as the P180, but an awfully quiet case.
* Standard ATX implementation creates a more straightforward build.

If you're a purist and want a challenge, go with the P180. If you prefer convenience and are willing to compromise just a little bit, the P150 is an excellent choice which is also very quiet. A new version of the P150 is coming out which does not include the power supply (the "Solo").

I currently have a P180 with which I am very happy, however, I expect my next build which I will be doing for a friend will be done with the Solo if I can get my hands on one in a couple months.

Good luck with your build.

krille · Post by **krille** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:32 pm

Thank you ever so much for the breakdown BigA!

Here are the main things that interested me.

P180: * Composite side panels minimize vibration
This definitely is a plus! Hard to do this yourself.

P180: * Larger case than P150
I need the space!

P150 * Side panels are damped with foam
The foam damping of the P150 should easily be countered by using Acousti-Pack Deluxe V2 on the P180, no? This should be an easy mod to do yourself, no?

P150 * Elastic drive suspension minimizes vibration
This is a major advantage of the P150. I'll definitely have to look into this one. How much better is the elastic drive suspension of the P150 compared to the simple silicon grommets of the P180? I could really use the extra space of the P180, but if this would make P150 a quieter case then I'm definitely having second thoughts. Maybe one of each? Hmm... Ultimately I am looking for the quietest case here, allowing the most silent build.

The other points aren't really of any concern to me, and yes, you're quite right I'm a purist. I've already built one setup in a P180 so doing it again won't be too much of a hassle I think, since I've realized I need to plan a lot more beforehand this time. (First time, I just dug right into it. Bad decision.)

What can I realistically expect from going from a Cooler-Master Stacker (original version) to an Antec P180 anyway? Mainly noise-wise, but also any other concerns as well (such as cooling capacity, limited space etc)? I think my Stacker is extremely noisy so I'm definitely changing that one out, but how much will a case change improve this, since ultimately cases don't generate any noise by themselves?

Thanks again! ~ Kris

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:52 pm

krille wrote:I've already got a suitable PSU (Seasonic S12-600) and it does just fine (it's quiet too!). I'm a bit sceptical to passive PSUs overall (and as I understand, once the 80mm fan of the Antec Phantom spins up, it's actually louder than the Seasonic S12-series).

You can run a Phantom 500 passive in a P180 (I did this for a while with my 250W+ system) but to do that you have to put the disks in the upper chamber or they cook. The best arrangement I found was the disks and Phantom in the lower chamber with a Nexus @ 5V (545 RPM). The supply fan never turns on and the Nexus contributes no noise at all. The disks average about 35C.

I have a pair of Samsung SP2004C disks using the P180 grommet mounting. They vibrate a lot to the touch, but none of that is transferred to the case. There is no hum or buzz, only a faint hissing of the bearings.

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:20 pm

BigA wrote:Please refer to the SPCR reviews of these cases for details on each. Some of the more significant differences between the P180 and the P150 (besides styling) are:

P150:
* Side panels are damped with foam

incorrect. It's dampened with vinyl sheets. Foam will suck up cavity resonance, this won't

* Elastic drive suspension minimizes vibration

There's been a bunch of reports on this forum about the elastic failing, so I would be iffy about using this. Someone needs to contact Antec and see if they've fixed this problem yet.

krille · Post by **krille** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:34 am

cmthomson wrote:The best arrangement I found was the disks and Phantom in the lower chamber with a Nexus @ 5V (545 RPM). The supply fan never turns on and the Nexus contributes no noise at all. The disks average about 35C.

Excellent idea! So a single Nexus (120mm I assume) at 5v takes care of the heat of 2 HDDs and renders the Phantom 500 noiseless? Just excellent. This would probably be the perfect setup for my dad. Myself, I'll stick to my Seasonic S12-600 for now.

Good to hear about the silicon grommets doing their job, myself I have one 2504C and I'm thinking of purchasing a WD1500 Raptor as well. So that would be two drives. My dad uses two drives as well. (My sig is outdated, I can't stand my 4xdeskstars and 2xcudas anymore, so I unplugged them. Performance hit is real bad though, that's why I'm considering a WD1500 Raptor.)

Shadowknight wrote:incorrect. It's dampened with vinyl sheets. Foam will suck up cavity resonance, this won't
* Elastic drive suspension minimizes vibration
There's been a bunch of reports on this forum about the elastic failing, so I would be iffy about using this. Someone needs to contact Antec and see if they've fixed this problem yet.

Good info! Thanks, I guess I'll stay away from the P150 till we know for sure there aren't any issues with its elastic drive suspension.

Btw, Acousti-Pack (as we discussed in the other thread) DOES suck up cavity resonance no? Rendering it superior to these vinyl sheets? Since I intend to use Acousti-Pack in a P180 anyway.

Thanks ~ Kris

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:25 am

krille wrote:Btw, Acousti-Pack (as we discussed in the other thread) DOES suck up cavity resonance no? Rendering it superior to these vinyl sheets? Since I intend to use Acousti-Pack in a P180 anyway.

Thanks ~ Kris

When I had fan resonance in various parts of the P180, AcoustPack foam didn't help. What did help was switching to fans that didn't resonate (Nexus).

IsaacKuo · Post by **IsaacKuo** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:28 am

krille wrote:
cmthomson wrote:There's been a bunch of reports on this forum about the elastic failing, so I would be iffy about using this. Someone needs to contact Antec and see if they've fixed this problem yet.
Good info! Thanks, I guess I'll stay away from the P150 till we know for sure there aren't any issues with its elastic drive suspension.

The P150 also comes with standard drive sleds with rubber grommets like the P180. If you're nervous about the elastic drive suspension, that's no reason to avoid the P150.

The P150's horizontal drive sleds would be great for a sorbathane strip suspension also.

krille · Post by **krille** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:44 am

IsaacKuo wrote:The P150 also comes with standard drive sleds with rubber grommets like the P180. If you're nervous about the elastic drive suspension, that's no reason to avoid the P150.

The P150's horizontal drive sleds would be great for a sorbathane strip suspension also.

Well, basically the only reasons I'd go P150 over P180 are:

a) Elastic hard drive suspension
I'm not worried about this myself really, since I currently have soft-mounted my hard drive (2405C) using elastic. But I wouldn't use risk using it for my dad's PC seeing these reports. Also I could use the extra space of the P180. People seem to hint at P180 allowing for a more silent build and I suppose you can always suspend your hard drives again yourself in the P180, correct?
Just thought it was a very convenient nifty little feature it being built-in and all. Why did they skimp on this in the P180? Would have made the choice so much easier.

And maybe
b) the vinyl sheets
But as far as I understand you can apply those yourself to the P180 and then the P180 has both the triple-layer alu-plastic-alu wall AND the vinyl sheets (or perhaps AcoustiPack foam?)making P180 the winner handsdown? Is this correct?

cmthomson wrote:When I had fan resonance in various parts of the P180, AcoustPack foam didn't help. What did help was switching to fans that didn't resonate (Nexus).

I don't think fan resonance is equivalent to cavity resonance though. So question still stands, does AcoustiPack foam help against cavity resonance ultimately making it better than using vinyl sheets?

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:23 am

krille wrote:So question still stands, does AcoustiPack foam help against cavity resonance ultimately making it better than using vinyl sheets?

yes.

krille · Post by **krille** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:37 am

MikeC wrote:
krille wrote:So question still stands, does AcoustiPack foam help against cavity resonance ultimately making it better than using vinyl sheets?
yes.

Excellent. I believe that's all there is to know before making the move.

Btw, Mike, I decided to go with the SPCR SE version of the Antec P180 instead of the cheaper standard and black versions as a way to express my gratitude for all the excellent help and advice I keep receiving here at SPCR. It's a first-class community you've managed to create Mike!

Big thanks to all other contributors as well!!

~ Kris

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:39 pm

krille wrote:
cmthomson wrote:When I had fan resonance in various parts of the P180, AcoustPack foam didn't help. What did help was switching to fans that didn't resonate (Nexus).
I don't think fan resonance is equivalent to cavity resonance though. So question still stands, does AcoustiPack foam help against cavity resonance ultimately making it better than using vinyl sheets?

The issue I faced was both: the fan hub resonated with a pure tone (typically about 400 Hz), and this in turn excited a cavity resonance, which had the effect of amplifying the fan noise. The foam obviously did not change the fan resonance, and it also seemed to have no effect on the cavity resonance.

krille · Post by **krille** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:12 pm

cmthomson wrote:
krille wrote:
cmthomson wrote:When I had fan resonance in various parts of the P180, AcoustPack foam didn't help. What did help was switching to fans that didn't resonate (Nexus).
I don't think fan resonance is equivalent to cavity resonance though. So question still stands, does AcoustiPack foam help against cavity resonance ultimately making it better than using vinyl sheets?
The issue I faced was both: the fan hub resonated with a pure tone (typically about 400 Hz), and this in turn excited a cavity resonance, which had the effect of amplifying the fan noise. The foam obviously did not change the fan resonance, and it also seemed to have no effect on the cavity resonance.

Perhaps one could use silicon between the fans and the P180 surface in order to dampen and bring vibrations to a minimum? Much like the P180 natively has silicon towards the PSU on the mounting bracket?

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:11 am

krille wrote:
cmthomson wrote:
krille wrote:I don't think fan resonance is equivalent to cavity resonance though. So question still stands, does AcoustiPack foam help against cavity resonance ultimately making it better than using vinyl sheets?
The issue I faced was both: the fan hub resonated with a pure tone (typically about 400 Hz), and this in turn excited a cavity resonance, which had the effect of amplifying the fan noise. The foam obviously did not change the fan resonance, and it also seemed to have no effect on the cavity resonance.
Perhaps one could use silicon between the fans and the P180 surface in order to dampen and bring vibrations to a minimum? Much like the P180 natively has silicon towards the PSU on the mounting bracket?

The silicone actually made it worse. It let the fan hub vibrate more freely.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:46 am

krille wrote:P150 * Elastic drive suspension minimizes vibration
This is a major advantage of the P150. I'll definitely have to look into this one. How much better is the elastic drive suspension of the P150 compared to the simple silicon grommets of the P180? I could really use the extra space of the P180, but if this would make P150 a quieter case then I'm definitely having second thoughts. Maybe one of each? Hmm... Ultimately I am looking for the quietest case here, allowing the most silent build.

As already mentioned, the silicone grommets do a VERY good job. However, it's only a matter of drilling some holes in the lower drive cage, if elastic shows up to be needed. There's a thread about it somewhere on this board. Should be relative easy to find, something like "p180" and "elastic"...

krille · Post by **krille** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:50 am

cmthomson wrote:
krille wrote:Perhaps one could use silicon between the fans and the P180 surface in order to dampen and bring vibrations to a minimum? Much like the P180 natively has silicon towards the PSU on the mounting bracket?
The silicone actually made it worse. It let the fan hub vibrate more freely.

Huh... so it would be unwise to invest in any of these?

What about these?

Acousti Ultra-Soft Fan Mounts 8-pack (Black)
Bitspower Anti-Vibration Screws 12-Pack
Cooltek Anti-vibrations kit this one looks very similar to the Nexus Anti-Vibration Mounting Kit - which one is better?
EFS Vibrationdampers for Fans (4-Pack)
TIGER ELASTIC FIXING 4-PACK
Antec PC Noise Killer Kit (there is a 120mm version as well)

What would be best to use to damp the vibrations and kill the noise of a Nexus Real-Silent 120mm at 5v, 7v and 12v in the rear of a P180, for a more pleasant experience?

What would be best for the other positions in the P180? What would be best for cases and fans in general?

Thanks

~ Kris

Actually I believe this question deserves its own thread in the Fans section, no?

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:21 am

krille wrote:
cmthomson wrote:The silicone actually made it worse. It let the fan hub vibrate more freely.
Huh... so it would be unwise to invest in any of these?
Anti-vibration Soft Silicone Fan Gaskets

Acousti Products Acoustifan Anti-vibration Gel Fan Mounts 4 Pack (AFM01C)

Noise Isolator Vibration Damper for 120mm Fans

Wrong conclusion. I really like the Acousti silicone fan gaskets. The origin of my problem was the AcoustiFan DustProof fans. When I soft-mounted Nexus fans, there were no resonances.

krille wrote:What would be best to use to damp the vibrations and kill the noise of a Nexus Real-Silent 120mm at 5v, 7v and 12v in the rear of a P180, for a more pleasant experience?

What would be best for the other positions in the P180? What would be best for cases and fans in general?

At 5V, a Nexus doesn't need damping. Some would say the same at 7V.

To attack the last bit of noise, cut out the grills: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=15810

krille · Post by **krille** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:44 am

cmthomson wrote:Wrong conclusion. I really like the Acousti silicone fan gaskets. The origin of my problem was the AcoustiFan DustProof fans. When I soft-mounted Nexus fans, there were no resonances.

At 5V, a Nexus doesn't need damping. Some would say the same at 7V.

To attack the last bit of noise, cut out the grills: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=15810

So you believe the Acousti silicone fan gaskets would yield the best fan noise reduction then. I wonder if you could combine it with those soft silicone-like mounting "screws"?

I will run my Nexus exhaust fan at 7V. I doubt a single Nexus fan at 5v is able to exhaust all the heat my hardware produces (see sig) even in the P180. I think that's the most silent way to cool the PC (and block of the top inlet). Or do you think 5v may actually cut it?

I intend on placing my hard drive(s) in the lower drive bay and remove the upper drive bay entirely. I think the Seasonic S12 can handle the heat output of a hard drive or two.

Would love to cut out the fan grills, but I'm worried about EMI leakage. Will cutting out the fan grills really do that much for silence?

Thanks

~ Kris

krille · Post by **krille** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:17 am

Just got a brilliant idea: Wouldn't a fan shroud do the same trick without letting all the EMI loose?

(Btw, I followed the link you provided and it seems fan grills are REALLy, REALLY nasty. Sigh.)

~ Kris

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:30 am

Would love to cut out the fan grills, but I'm worried about EMI leakage. Will cutting out the fan grills really do that much for silence?

Most fan grills actually aren't very good at containing EMI. To be a good Faraday cage (EMI blocker) the conductive surface has to have holes that are smaller than roughly 1/10 the length of the wavelength of the radio frequency that they are intended to block; most fan grills have holes substantially larger than this.

Faraday Cage

RF Shielding

The enclosure may be made of an unbroken conducting sheet, like the metal box surrounding a sensitive radio receiver, or a wire mesh, like that in the door of a microwave oven. Any holes in the box or mesh must be significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation that is being kept out, or the enclosure will not effectively approximate an unbroken conducting surface.

I personally always cut out fan grills; it really does improve your airflow.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:33 am

krille wrote:So you believe the Acousti silicone fan gaskets would yield the best fan noise reduction then. I wonder if you could combine it with those soft silicone-like mounting "screws"?

I will run my Nexus exhaust fan at 7V. I doubt a single Nexus fan at 5v is able to exhaust all the heat my hardware produces (see sig) even in the P180. I think that's the most silent way to cool the PC (and block of the top inlet). Or do you think 5v may actually cut it?

I intend on placing my hard drive(s) in the lower drive bay and remove the upper drive bay entirely. I think the Seasonic S12 can handle the heat output of a hard drive or two.

Would love to cut out the fan grills, but I'm worried about EMI leakage. Will cutting out the fan grills really do that much for silence?

I didn't try other soft-mount kits, so I can't compare. The Acousti gaskets seal the air flow around the fan shell, and also provide silicone suspension of both the shell and the screws (the screws come with silicone washers).

If you're only using one of the two case fans, I'd suggest putting it in the top and sealing the back. This will let convection work for you, and also let you cut out the top grill, then cover the hole with the spoiler. I don't know what fan speed you will need; you'll have to experiment. You might consider automating with an NMT-2 or NMT-3.

As for EMI, don't sweat it. the entire top of the P180 is plastic, so there's already a giant EMI hole in the case. And lots of people run with their cases open. The motherboards are designed to meet FCC regulations in a plastic case.

krille · Post by **krille** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:07 am

jaganath :: Interesting... so you are saying I won't get me one of them brain tumours or otherwise cook/fry myself, my brains or my eyes, etc if I remove the fan grills, eh? I'm really tempted to do this, however my guardian won't let me out of fear for the invisible enemy (EMI).

cmthomson :: Indeed I bet they do seal the air flow around the fan, much like a shroud or other air duct would.
However, in the SPCR review AcoustiProducts Vibration Dampers Devon Cooke writes:

Devon Cooke wrote: Anti-Vibration Fan Gasket AFG80B

With the fan gasket installed, the fan's buzz was slightly muted. The difference was most noticeable from the front and sides of the case, and disappeared entirely behind the case where there was a direct path between the fan and my ears. The difference in noise quality was very small, but it was enough to swap the roles of the buzz and hum: Instead of the buzz being muffled by the motor hum, I would characterize the noise as motor hum disrupted by a low buzz.

Anti-Vibration Fan Mount AFM02B / AFM03B

Both the retail and OEM mounts were tested, but they sounded the same so I will describe them together.

These fan mounts were more effective than the fan gasket, and the difference was audible from all angles rather than just in front of the case. As with the fan gasket, only the buzz in the noise signature was affected â€” the motor hum stayed the same. In fact, the buzz disappeared almost entirely, changing from the dominant source of noise to a background rattle that was only audible within a foot or two of the case. The motor hum was still present as a pure tone around 200 - 300 Hz, but most of the resonant buzz was eliminated. This indicates that the fan mounts were doing their job effectively.

Clearly Devon Cooke favours the Anti-Vibration Fan Mounts over the Gaskets. That's why I was wondering if there's any way to combine the best of both worlds? So I'm not quite sure what to make out of this... shrouding capabilities of the Gaskets or the lower buzz the Mounts bring?

Good idea on the top and convection though, however, my concern is, wouldn't that be a very direct way for noise to escape from the case directly to your ear? As compared to the rear exhaust? The very reason I was considering sealing the top fan grill was to reduce overall perceived noise (coming from inside the case).

I will have to look into the NMT-2 and NMT-3 gizmos though. Sounds interesting.

And don't tell my dad about the plastic top of the P180 or - WOE - he surely won't let me buy one.

Btw, guys, are the fans grills on the P180 reattachable after they've been removed? Or is it permanent and irreversible?

Thanks

~ Kris

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:37 pm

krille wrote:Clearly Devon Cooke favours the Anti-Vibration Fan Mounts over the Gaskets. That's why I was wondering if there's any way to combine the best of both worlds? So I'm not quite sure what to make out of this... shrouding capabilities of the Gaskets or the lower buzz the Mounts bring?

There are three things that make that conclusion dubious for your situation: he used a small fan, a crappy undamped case, and higher RPM. With an undervolted Nexus 120mm fan, the amount of vibration being damped is miniscule. When I added the gaskets to my system, I was using AcoustiFan DustProofs, and I couldn't hear any hum, but I could feel it in the case.

I suspect the reason for the difference Devon observed is that his fan was vibrating a lot -- enough to be heard. Of course the gasket would transfer more of this to the case than the studs, because of the increased surface area of contact.

krille wrote:Good idea on the top and convection though, however, my concern is, wouldn't that be a very direct way for noise to escape from the case directly to your ear? As compared to the rear exhaust? The very reason I was considering sealing the top fan grill was to reduce overall perceived noise (coming from inside the case).

I put my system on the other side of the desk, so there is no direct path.

krille wrote:And don't tell my dad about the plastic top of the P180 or - WOE - he surely won't let me buy one.

You encounter thousands of times as much EMI driving by a cell phone tower, and many times as much operating a vacuum cleaner, than you get from a PC. The P180 is hardly unique in not being a Faraday cage; hardly any cases even come close. And as jaganath pointed out, the big holes in the case fan grills won't stop high frequencies.

krille wrote:Btw, guys, are the fans grills on the P180 reattachable after they've been removed? Or is it permanent and irreversible?

I guess you could reattach them with duct tape or bathtub silicone... Or install an aftermarket grill.

Trunks · Post by **Trunks** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:19 pm

krille wrote:
Clearly Devon Cooke favours the Anti-Vibration Fan Mounts over the Gaskets. That's why I was wondering if there's any way to combine the best of both worlds? So I'm not quite sure what to make out of this... shrouding capabilities of the Gaskets or the lower buzz the Mounts bring?

Install the soft gasket backwards, so the lip hangs off the fan. Then soft mount. It seals up the little gap the soft mount creates.
Have not tried this...

krille · Post by **krille** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:46 pm

Trunks wrote:
krille wrote:
Clearly Devon Cooke favours the Anti-Vibration Fan Mounts over the Gaskets. That's why I was wondering if there's any way to combine the best of both worlds? So I'm not quite sure what to make out of this... shrouding capabilities of the Gaskets or the lower buzz the Mounts bring?
Install the soft gasket backwards, so the lip hangs off the fan. Then soft mount. It seals up the little gap the soft mount creates.
Have not tried this...

It's only for one fan or so, so I guess I could just buy both and try my luck.

I guess you could reattach them with duct tape or bathtub silicone... Or install an aftermarket grill.

Since only the rear fan grill (I assume?) should have to be removed, cosmetics won't be much of an issue. Was asking just in case... will have a look at the case when I get it and judge for myself. That'll probably be the best thing today.

Just to be certain, we're only discussing the removal of the rear fan grill, huh? As I (currently) don't intend to put a fan in the front, as I read in the SPCR P180 reviews it was best to put any fans in the back of the case.

Will have to considering, however, the possibility of perhaps running two 120mm Nexus Real-Silent at 5v in rear and top exhaust, as two fans pushing the same CFM are quieter than one. I just hope this won't cause any airflow/turbulence issues compared to rear-only and sealed shut top.

~ Kris