Aesthetics and practicality: Antec, Centurion, or . . . ?

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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nightmorph
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Aesthetics and practicality: Antec, Centurion, or . . . ?

Post by nightmorph » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:40 pm

First, let me mention that what I would really like to build is a micro-ATX system, either with a shoebox/toaster-style case or tower; either one is fine. However, seeing as no one has yet made an nForce 500-series mATX board for AM2 (much less one that works properly in Linux), I'm stuck going with the larger ATX form factor -- if anyone's made, say, an nForce 570 ultra mATX board, speak up! Case cost is not really an issue; I'm not going to spring for a case over $150 though.

So my goals in picking a case are now threefold: 1) smallest possible ATX case, yet one that's got a good design so that things can be placed/wrapped in it without extreme difficulty. 2) A design that doesn't fight against proper acoustics and thermals (can't be loud and hot in and of itself). 3) Aesthetically pleasing!

1) I'm trying to find cases that are under 17 inches high, maybe closer to 15 inches. So far, there are enough varieties of Centurions to do this, and the Antec Solo/P150 both seem reasonably small. I don't want a huge tower; in fact, I would prefer to have a desktop mATX case, but, well, maybe it'll end up on the floor. Smaller, the better. But, I hear that Centurions are notoriously difficult to work in, while Temjin's TJ-0X line is a step up, and the P150 is better still, especially for cable management. And the Antec cases have built-in drive suspension for all three of my HDDs, a big plus. I think the TJ-07 is just way too frickin' huge for my needs, so that one gets ruled out.

2) To me, a case has the best cooling potential when there's a more unrestricted front-to-back airpath, which means no case doors. I hate 'em anyway. Sure, I might end up getting tin snips and cutting out a few grills, but I'd like to do as little of that as possible. Also, 120mm fan mounts are important, or at least 92mm like on the Solo/P150. It'll be Nexus fans all around, so I think any of these cases can accomodate the fans with ease. However, despite the separate reviews I've read, it's been hard to find a review that stacks any 2 of the 3 against each other for noise levels and temperatures, so drawing conclusions as to which one is definitely better is tricky, to me.

3) Lastly, the thing needs to look good! I absolutely hate the "refrigerator" look of the P180, which is why you don't see it on the list. the P150/Solo get almost uncomfortably close to this look, but maybe I can deal with that. I'm a big fan of grilled fronts (the better for airflow, in theory), which is why the clean fascia of the TJ-06/08 and Coolermaster Centurions make my list. I'm also really a fan of curves and smooth, simple lines. Not so much a fan of anything that resembles 80s VCRs or boomboxes -- no hard sharp edges or corners for me, thanks.

In fact, I actually really like the smooth aluminum contours of Apple's MacPro/PowerMac cases. Not too sharply edged, but nicely curved and very smooth. Avoids the fridge look, and preserves the dignified grille. Another is the Shuttle "shoebox" type look, or a similar minitower. Very cute, worthy of desktop status. For sheer sexiness, I'd die to build a system around a Hoojum Cubit, but that's just a little smaller than my needs. ;)

I'm drawn to designs that feature subtle curves in the right spots, like Apple/Hoojum's aesthetic, or the mix of soft and hard contours in the Centurions. Colors -- eh, I can deal with any sort of color, as long as it's not the basic black/silver front of the Solo. I'm very much into the brushed aluminum (or even chrome) look.

So yeah, if you stuck with reading this whole thing, you've probably got a sense of how conflicted I am. The problem is that there's a lot of either functional or pretty cases available, but almost none on the market that have the right balance between the two. So, given all the above criteria, what would be some good, similar recommendations?

Thanks.
Last edited by nightmorph on Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

qviri
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Post by qviri » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:02 pm

Well, I can comment on my Centurion 5. There's a link to a thread-ful of its pictures in my signature.

1) According to the SPCR review, the case is 17.12 inches tall. That's higher than what you specified, but to be honest I don't see many places to shave more than say an inch. If you want 15", I think it's gonna get cramped with full ATX. Maybe you should wait for the mATX mobos if that's an option.

I haven't worked in any other brand-name cases, so I cannot comment on how they compare to the Centurion. I can tell you that it hasn't been a pain at all for me, coming from no-name cases or indeed no cases at all.

2) As I'm sure you've seen, the Centurion 5 has an open grill through most of the front. Doesn't get much more open, although there's just one 80mm fan mount up front and one 120mm in the back. You can, however, mount an extra 120mm in the front bays after removing the blanks, using the Scythe Kama Bay or some other homemade device.

3) I personally think that the Centurion is pretty good looking. The new versions in stores now (sans-PSU) have Intel-mandated vent holes on the left panel, which quite frankly makes them a lot less attractive. Luckily, the two side panels are interchangeable, so I just put the one with the holes on whichever side is facing the wall / desk / is generally less visible.

Given that I think the front with its curved aluminium pieces could have been a bit more square for me, I think you'd like it :).

Any other questions? Fire away if needed.

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Post by nightmorph » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:54 pm

@qviri:

It doesn't look like there's room in that case to do any sort of 3.5" hard drive suspension, much less 3 of them, at least, not without giving up all the 5.25" slots. I haven't seen any pictures of anyone else attempting to do this with that case; do you think it's feasible for someone to try, or is there just no room, in your opinion?

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Post by nici » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:28 pm

There is the possibility of drilling out a few pop-rivets and removing the whole 3,5" thing so there's plenty of room :wink: That way you can stack a few enclosures on top of eachother, or make a suspension mount for HDDs with three pieces of wood, some hooks and elastic. Think of a U-shaped thing with HDDs in the middle. I prefer silicone string for suspension, 3-4mm thick.

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Post by qviri » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:29 am

Sorry, didn't notice the bit about three hard drives in the original post.

You can fit two hard drives suspended side-by-side vertically in the drive cage. Three theoretically would fit, but it would leave the setup with about 3 mm between each drive and the cage walls, so I wouldn't really recommend that.

Not to mention a bezel as open as Centurion's might be a bad idea if you have three hard drives, since all the noise will go right to you.

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:44 am

Well, you've definately put yourself into a challenge 8)

P150: There's case dampning included (vinyl-steel sandwhich type), which definately improve the quality of noise.

Open/messed front: It might look nice, and also be good for airflow. But it's also a "good" way for noise to escape...

What about doing a nice paintjob of the front of the P150? You could create some very nice curves...

/Flameshields on

What about Thermaltake Swing? http://www.thermaltake.com/product/Chas ... 000sns.asp

/Flameshields off

Thermaltake is usually ignored on this board, (thus the flameshield), but this case is steel-look, curvy, no door, 12 cm fans, 0,8 mm steel, and the HDD case shouldnt be too hard to remove. (I believe I Googled it once, and found it's only a matter of unscrewing some screws - but check for yourself)

If the HDD case is easily removed, it should be relatively simple to suspend the HDD's.

The front air intake is probaly too restricted, but that can be solved :wink:

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Post by Felger Carbon » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:12 am

Three HDDs in a very small case is a problem unless you have DIY skills.

Suggestions: first, consider consolidating your 3 hard drives into fewer larger drives.

Second, if you can afford $31 and change (plus shipping), look at the Ever Case ECE3505. Froogle "Evercase E3505B-53"; there are two sites selling in the low 30s. I have 4 of these cases. They're almost identical to the NSK3300 in size, have a 120mm exhaust (and a mostly-useless intake 120mm as well). They take a uATX mobo (of course) and, unlike the NSK3300, they accept a standard ATX PSU. Lotsa room for a Ninja. I like them a lot, but I have added some damping to them.

If you have DIY skills, one HDD can be mounted in one of the two external optical drive bays and two can be suspended in front of the intake fan.

edit: changed "Ever Case" to "Evercase. Ewiz sells the case for $29 even.

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Post by nightmorph » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:08 pm

The Evercase is okay. However, I do require three drives -- RAID 1 for my main system, plus an additional drive for testing and development, as well as alternative operating systems like FreeBSD and Solaris.

My ideal case doesn't have to be as small as possible, but 17" or less is what I'm shooting for.

Regarding the Swing . . . well, it's different, I'll grant you that. But I prefer my smooth roundedness to come in the overall shape of the case, not just one panel. Corners smoothed out and rounded, maybe with a bit of an extra gradient to really get the sides to flow into one another. The front of the Centurion gets close to this idea, and the cubit really nails it. Interestingly, the Mac chassis isn't necessarily all that rounded, but it does give the impression of it, which works for me. :) The P150 and Solo are tolerable; so far, they seem to have the most possibility for suspending the drives.

And front noise might not be as much of a problem with any case I go with; I have some pretty good ideas of what I'll be doing to dampen that noise. If anything, I might just stick the case down below the desk (sigh...) on the left side, since my left ear just isn't as sensitive as my right ear -- so I get a bit of a freebie on noise reduction because of slightly worse hearing on one side.

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Post by Thomas » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:31 am

I'm a little curious, can you please post a link to the particular Centurion you've in mind?

Do you know the Asus Vento? Very rounded and smooth, and very different 8) :wink: :D

nightmorph
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Post by nightmorph » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:13 am

Yeah, that Asus is hideous. I'm not looking for anything that remotely resembles a "gamer's case."

The Centurion 5, C5, and maybe even the 531 (though the blue is a little too overstated) are all decent cases. So are the 540 & 541, though unfortunately microATX isn't an option for reasons in the original post.

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Post by NeilBlanchard » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:48 pm

Hello,

You can get a second HD cage for the Evercase, that hold two more drives, for ~$9 plus shipping:

http://www.usereasy.com/product_5147.html

It goes down on the bottom of the case.

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Post by nightmorph » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:41 pm

I visited Fry's today -- side note, but this Fry's is amazingly crappy. Poor shopping experiences; it's literally the dump that all the other Fry's for 200 miles around send their extra/backstock to, on top of which they're always sold out of everything anyway.

Still, they actually had the Antec P150 and Solo on the display shelf. (Actually, they mostly carried just Antec, no-name, and Thermaltake products). I think I've ruled out the TJ-06; it was on display too, and it just seems way too big.

The Solo, though . . . was extremely nice. This was my first hands-on investigative encounter I've had with an ATX chassis that I actually intended to buy. It was the revised Solo with fabric straps to replace the rubber bands that some users reported snapping. Seems decently sized -- one thing that surprised me was how small ATX motherboards seem to be in real life (not magnified 50x in a review), so this case seems pretty roomy to work in. (The last time I did extensive hands-on work with hardware was in my old IBM 286; the one with a 2.5-foot wide motherboard and a 10-pound 20MB HDD!)

The P150 was nice, if $10 more than on NewEgg, and there's the useless PSU it comes with -- I'm getting a Seasonic. I'd almost get it and keep the PSU as a backup; I like the stealthed drive bays that much. :)

Cable management in the Solo looks trickier than all the nice pictures I've seen indicate though, so I'm trying to figure out ideas. The front isn't nearly as pretty as I'd hoped it to be, but I just may go with the Solo.

Two questions:
1) Does it really get enough air through the front vents? Sure, they go all the way around the sides, but they're small, and there's no direct path to the 92mm fans.
2) Do both 92mm slots need a Nexus in each to cool 3 drives, or is 1 sufficient?

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Post by hravn » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:17 pm

Well, I wouldn't call the NeoHE bundled with the P150 useless (unless you get one of the DOAs ;) ), it's very quiet and detachable cables are a big plus. Now Seasonic (NeoHEs _are_ seasonic made) might be a bit better, but I'm not sure if it will be noticeable.

Question 1: Yes, the front vents lets through enough air, depending of course of what kind of exhaust fans you are running (probably not enough for a high-speed Delta ;) ). But I haven't noticed my Nexus exhaust + NeoHE being starved for air.

Question 2: I'm running three hard drives in my P150, two IBM/Hitachi (160 SATA, 180GB PATA) and one Maxtor (250 SATA), so pretty old (and hot) drives. I'm having no temperature (HD-temps around 35C) problems at all without any 92mm intake fans.

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Post by Thomas » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:19 am

Yeah, hands on means a lot, when it comes to cases. I see what you mean about the Vento, although it's very nice, it's too much of a gamer.

The Centurion 5 is a very good balance of clean style, without being boring. However, I believe it'll be much easier to make the SOLO or the P150 quiet.

Regarding the Neo PSU, it might be an advantage, that there's no buttom fan. Thus it probably wont ramp up as much, since much less warm CPU/GPU heat enters the PSU. If you end up getting a P150, I suggest you try the Neo, before switching to a Seasonic.
nightmorph wrote: Two questions:
1) Does it really get enough air through the front vents? Sure, they go all the way around the sides, but they're small, and there's no direct path to the 92mm fans.
2) Do both 92mm slots need a Nexus in each to cool 3 drives, or is 1 sufficient?
In a P180 (front air intake quite similar to SOLO/P150), my single Hitachi HDD hoovers around 35 deg C in the lower chamber. Airflow is generated only by a Seasonic S12, whith spins nice and quiet at 800 RPM.

During more disk intensive tasks, like video capture for an hour, antivirus full disk scan, defragment, HDD sometimes climbs to 37/38. When the task is finished, the temp went down to 34/35 within 5 minutes or so. Amb. temp is around 21-23 C deg.

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Post by nightmorph » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:41 am

I guess I'll add two 92mm Nexus fans to my purchase list if I go with the Solo/P150, just to be safe. Unless someone knows the math for the cooling ability of a Nexus on hard drives. 8)

I'll be reevaluating the Centurion 5/C5, too. My wife really liked the blue aluminum highlights on the Centurion 5, but she also liked the black Solo, so that's a double aesthetic approval vote. :D

One thing I've noticed about all the Centurions is the vents on the side panel -- I'm not sure what those will do to the front-to-back airflow. The graphics card I'm getting (MSI NX7600GT-VT2D256EHD) is a quiet double-slot version that exhausts to the rear.

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Post by Thomas » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:45 am

You should try some more searching... That vid-card is an excellent HDD heater... Just serarch on "MSI NX7600GT" here on SPCR.

The side vent question is raised several times on SPCR. Usually not good, but easily worked around.

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Post by Aris » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:43 am

this is the smallest ATX case ive been able to find:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811200031

Front bezel is "eh ok" imo, but i really like everything else about it. Some of the vents are a bit excessive, but you can just put some acoustipak over the ones you dont want.

The psu airflow is completely isoltated from the rest of the case, and it takes a standard ATX PSU. So you dont have to worry about internal case temps making your PSU fan ramp up during load.

Its shorter than your desired hight of 15"
Dimensions: 13.8'' x 7.9'' x 18.5'' (H*W*D)

Case hight is as short as you can get and still fit an atx board inside. Case width is as thin as you can get and still fit a 120mm fan on the rear. Plus its still wide enough to fit a ninja heatsink on the CPU, with a 120mm exhaust fan right next to it for passive operation.
Depth is a bit more than i would personally like, but its not too bad.

3x 5.25" external bays
2x 3.5" external bays
1x 3.5" internal bay

steel construction to reduce vibration

Case airflow would pull in cool air from the side vents from negative case pressure of the rear 120mm exhaust fan. Me personally i would put acoustipak over the side vent over the CPU region, and have the air come in from the lower/rear side one so the cool air passes right over the video card. the lower/front side vent is for the PSU exhaust. PSU gets its airflow from below the case, and has an included air filter which you can opt to not use. The cutout for the PSU intake will support 120mm fans. Also the PSU is mounted on rubber grommets to further reduce any vibrations from the PSU fan.

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Post by nightmorph » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:52 am

Interesting, but it still looks like all the Acoustipack in the world couldn't keep the case quiet. That is really tiny, too; I've seen bigger microATX cases!

At this point, unless I see something else really interesting, I know I'm committed to the height, looks, and practicality of the Solo/P150 or Centurion 5 (blue).

Also . . . my desk itself is only 19 inches deep. So unless I snag a Shuttle or similar microATX system, the case will have to go on the floor. I realized this last night when I got out my measuring tape again. Otherwise, the typical 18.5" deep case will overhang the desk by the time all the cables get plugged in at the back. And I don't think there's quite enough room to try eoctanker's sideways orientation.

Besides, when it's 36-40 inches away from my ear on the floor, I figure that should be helpful in keeping perceived noise down, right?

Assume this is the Solo, and I've put it on the carpet next to the desk. At 39" from my right ear (the good one), a few quiet fans, a good quiet case, an extremely quiet PSU, am I really likely to hear anything at all, even under heavy CPU/HDD load?

My Linux work involves a lot of software compiling which involves heavy processor and disk usage, so that's probably what will generate the most noise.

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Post by Aris » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:01 am

im curious, what makes you think that case would be loud?

i could see an athlon 64 or core 2 duo system in it, with a passive ninja on it, and a passive 7600gs video card (2x for sli if you need the add'd framerates), and having just a single 120mm nexus fan on the back for exhaust, and then just the 120mm fan in the PSU. with the vent holes over the GPU region, the exhaust fan would pull in cool fresh air to keep the video cards cool, and with the 120mm exhaust fan so close to a ninja, the cpu would also stay cool. PSU heat is negligable because it has its own indipendant airflow from the rest of the system.

i really doubt a 2x fan system would be loud by any standards.

really the only thing you would have to worry about is hard drive noise, but there are ways to fix that.
Last edited by Aris on Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

nightmorph
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Post by nightmorph » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:06 am

Full of holes! Really thin steel, and the PSU placement looks questionable. I've a couple of old Pentium boxes now in storage, but they're more or less identical, except for placement of things inside the case. The one with the PSU up front, on the bottom, was definitely louder than the other one.

More to the point, all the loudest components are right up front -- hard disk drives, PSU, and CD drive. Trying to keep that lot quiet and cool would be a pretty tough challenge even for the best components. That is, if you're not extensively modding the case. Maybe creating separate thermal zones, like in the P180, would help, especially if you lined them with vinyl or acoustipack to further reduce the noise.

I guess it's possible to build a low-noise system with just a single drive, a low-power processor, and keep almost everything passively cooled, but that's a different challenge than the workstation I'm trying to build.

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Post by Aris » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 am

It does have seperate thermal zones, the PSU is completely independant from the rest of the case. With a typical system your PSU fan would never ramp up. Plus the fact that the fan is on the bottom, so there is no direct line of sight to the seated position for the PSU fan.

hard drives are always near the front of the case, thats just somthing your going to have to deal with unless you mod up some sort of custom internal enclosure and put it on the bottom of the case

as for the holes, you need an intake path for air somewhere. it doesnt just magically teleport into the case. having an open airway path over your video cards makes alot of sense. The only other way i could see passivly cooling your video cards with just an exhaust fan would be to open up all the unused expansion slots on the back of the case. plus acoustipak will easily remedy any vent holes you dont want.
idunno what makes you think the steel is abnormally thin, it looks like standard case steel to me.

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Post by nightmorph » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:44 am

Eh. The JustPC case is not on my planned buying list.

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Post by Aris » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:44 am

idunno, to me it just seems like your picking the greater of 2 evils.

changing the exterior deminsions of a case is nearly impossible. For a case to be the size you want it to be, with the ability to support the hardware you need, you have to make some comprimises somewhere.

the P150 is as small as your going to get "hight wise" if you keep the PSU in the default position at the top rear of the case. the only way to get a full atx case thats less than 15" is to move the PSU. where else would you move it? if you put it at the bottom/rear it will block PCI slots, if you put it in the top/front it will be even closer to the user, and then intake vents will make fan noise even more noticable. the front/bottom is really the only other place in the case that makes sense. so the PSU makes sense at the front/bottom to achieve the hight perameters you set. what about the ventalation holes for it? well you dont want cool air pulled straight into a psu just to be heated up and dumped into the case, so you need a way to exhaust the air out of the case. having the intake 120mm fan at the bottom would put it as far from the seated position as possible, and then your only choice is which side to exhaust to? the front, left or right. You'd have more percieved air turbulance noise if it exhausted out the front, so it goes out the side, like it does in this case.

As for hard drives and optical drives being at the front on this case, what cases are they not in that position? its not really a fair argument to say it will be louder than most cases because of an aspect that all enclosures share, even the ones your looking at.

so your only negative point left is really the side vent holes over the cpu and gpu region.

well to make your case the hight you want it to be, the psu has to be in the front/bottom, so you cant go with the typical front to back airflow, because the PSU would be in the way. So you have to have an intake SOMEWHERE on the side panel. The most logical place would be over the GPU region so the cool intake air from the negative air pressure of the rear exhaust fan would keep passive video cards from overheating, and also allow passive operation of the video cards to reduce noise.


So really, the only negative argument you could make about the case is the ventalation holes over the CPU region, which can easily be remedied by placing some tape over it. You could make it a bit more proffesional looking with some sound dampening material like acoustipak, but its not really necissary. All you need to do is block airflow and the direct line of sight noise from the rear exhaust fan.

------------------------------------------------------------

In the end its your decision and your money, but based on what you said your needs were it makes more sense to go with this case than a p150. closing up a single vent on a side panel is alot more plausible than chopping a few inches off the hight of a case.

Perhaps you just didnt think your needs through enough, and you really dont want a case under 15" high.

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Post by nightmorph » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:54 am

Ah, but a case around that height would be nice, provided it doesn't overhang my desk because it's too long. ;) I imagine that a 15"Hx15"D case could be constructed, as long as you move the drives and PSU out over the motherboard, which would make the case pretty wide.

Since the Solo/P150/Centurion has to be on the floor anyway (unless I can clear off enough deskspace to set it sideways), having a really short case like the JustPC now becomes a disadvantage: you have to lean over really far to work with the CD drive! :D

Besides, I don't like the look of the JustPC. For 90 bucks, I might as well get the Solo from ZipZoomFly. I appreciate the suggestion, though. It's not easy finding small ATX cases on Newegg that aren't HTPC cases.

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Post by Aris » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:10 am

yeah i see what you mean, i would like it not to be as deep also.

Most cases i see dont like to overlap drive bays with the motherboard region, which is why so many tower cases are as deep as they are.

i know what you mean about trying to find small cases. Its like an entire market segment is just missing, i cant believe no one has noticed it yet. The first company to make good quality, attractive cases for this segment will make a fortune. just like shuttle did when they stumbled across SFF barebones.

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Post by nightmorph » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:31 pm

Next question: what can be done about soft-mounting the PSU in the Antec cases? Judging by the SPCR review, hard-mounting the PSU definitely increases system noise. Is there room to put it on some sort of soft pad/weather stripping/washers, or would some kind of soft screw work? If these obstacles can be overcome, I'll probably choose either the Solo or the P150.

Yet still, the Centurion 5 is so easy on the eyes . . .

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Post by Shadowknight » Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:51 pm

I've done it with washers and one of those silicon PSU pad things. If I had to do it over again, I would just make sure the PSU is discharged, open it, and remount the fan with some Verax rubber sticks. That takes care of the whole problem when it comes to fan vibrations.

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Post by nightmorph » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:31 am

Or, I suppose, just switching the NeoHE with a Seasonic would work?

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Post by Aris » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:11 am

If i had the choice of a Solo/P150 or a centurion, i'd go with the Solo.

Remember the Solo is basically just a black version of the p150.

As for PSU vibrations, id decouple the fan inside the PSU instead of trying to decouple the entire PSU itself.

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Post by nightmorph » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:29 am

I think I'll go with the Solo at this point.

I've heard the Centurion is difficult to clean and lets in much more dust -- that's certainly plausible, given the pretty but perforated bezel. To be honest, I find it far prettier than the Solo (which is too slablike for my tastes), but the innate quietness and well-thought out interior (especially the hard drive cage + built-in suspension) push me over the edge. Actually, I could live with the suboptimal HDD cage placement in the Centurion if only it had drive suspension built in. As it is, I've no idea how I would go about properly modifying it with no tools for the job.

Practicality just barely wins 'gainst aesthetics this round.

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