Sonata III --- beginner

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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mrinsane19
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Sonata III --- beginner

Post by mrinsane19 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:55 pm

Howdy,
Beginner here, I've read all the fan reviews etc.. but just don't get some bits.

Current setup is Sonata III, stock rear case fan only on low
Q6600 w/Tuniq 120 (lowest settting on the dial)
x1950pro with reference cooler (stock clock/fan settings)
500w earthwatts (stock)

all stock.. you can see i am not a tinkerer.

With the q6600 stock temps were high (65c+ under TAT) hence the addition of the tuniq. Has brought it down to a happier level but not really significantly cool either.

Southern hemisphere summer is kicking in and temps are on the way up, I want to add the front/middle (depending on your thinking) fan... but I don't want it to get loud either. I've read up and basically decided on 2x Nexus 120mm....

My questions, going from 1x tricool on low, to 2x Nexus is noise going to increase? And obviously with the aim being lower temps without noise increase (hopefully quieter) .. Scythe I've written off as 1200rpm may be too loud (please correct me) and 800rpm sounds like a lucky dip as to whether you get ticking or not.

1000rpm on the noctua (If I've done my research correctly) is this loud? Should I be investing in a basic fan controller? And if so... what should I look at for a budget solution. Just something to turn it down with is fine, don't need monitoring etc (door is shut 99% of the time anyway).

TIA..

alfhenrik
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Post by alfhenrik » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:19 pm

First of all:

Welcome to SPCR!

What you could do is, get 2 Nexus 120mm fans, hook them up to your motherboard and then control the speed of them using Speedfan, this way you can set them to spin at lower RPMs so that they become inaudible (or close too) and still get decent airflow through your system.

I have 3 of them in my system, 2 controlled by Speedfan to spin between 45-55% depending on CPU temp. I can't hear them over my hard drives (I can't even hear them if I unplug my hard drives)

Thanks.

mrinsane19
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Post by mrinsane19 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:25 pm

Another Brisbanite! So you know what I mean about summer rolling on ;)

Cheers, will give that a go.

Now just how to get the better half's a bit quieter... stupid mobo has no extra fan headers :/ (so no speedfan) CPU only IIRC. Another topic for another day though...

Will hit up PCCG.

alfhenrik
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Post by alfhenrik » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:24 pm

PCCG has these cables
12V to 7V Fan Power Reducer or these
QuadSilencer 4pin to 4 x 3pin Reducer UV Blue

These will allow you to run your fans at 5v off a normal molex connector from your power supply, highly recommended if you don't have fan headers on the motherboard.

Yes, I know what you mean about the summer heat is coming, was 35*C over the weekend in a house without aircon...*hot,hot*

Das_Saunamies
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Post by Das_Saunamies » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:28 pm

Sonatas really aren't the greatest for airflow - awfully restricted intake with sideways HDDs and sold with 80mm PSUs that don't do much for exhaust. The front fan will help little if at all, you'd gain more by revving up the rear fan and opening up bay covers. A controller is a must, as you can't expect cooling to match your needs otherwise.

I got my Sonata II both cool and quiet after installing a 1200 Noctua for proper exhaust and swapping out the PSU for a 120mm one. Now the cool air gets drawn in properly and the hot air gets out. 1000 RPM is noticeable with the Noctua, but you shouldn't need it unless gaming. Your case may differ because of the puny PSU fan.

mrinsane19
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Post by mrinsane19 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:30 pm

Do those 7V adaptors have issues like the 7V mod? (ie, needing to add a 5V load)? Or the 2nd one might be the go... is a CM Centurion with 2x 120mm and 1x 80mm... kill a few birds with one stone, just need to check it has a spare header to start with (assuming things won't be happy if I run it off the CPU header).

System temp I have not checked but imagine it would be low, hers is only an E2160 @ stock with an active cooled 7600GS... with all those bloody fans :P

No a/c here either :(

alfhenrik
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Post by alfhenrik » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:37 pm

I'm running several 7v-trick connectors and I have not had any issues what soever with them so I'd say that they are safe (but don't quote me on it...). If you're worried about it then go for the second one.

Your CPU probably won't be to happy if you don't run it's fan :wink: unless you are running it off the PSU...

My other systems are all old gear that I have managed to silence just by slowing down the fans running in the case, mainly I've done this with 7v connectors but also with the Zalman Fanmate 2...works a treat and my house is near silent at 3am in the morning...

mrinsane19
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Post by mrinsane19 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:57 pm

Nah I meant plug it into the CPU connector, run the CPU fan off that plus all the case fans,,, but I imagine the smart monitoring would trip out :P

Just had a peek and TOH's pc only has CPU_FAN header... nothing else. Case fans are all just running off molex connectors @ 100%.

Hers seems to have more of a fan "buzz" (prob the 80mm in the side panel)... mine has more of a "whoosh".. but a bit louder than hers...

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:38 am

You could of course just buy a better case, but I think the money would be better invested in a new PSU, proper fans and some control. Doubt the Sonata III came cheap, and it's not a bad-looking case.

mrinsane19
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Post by mrinsane19 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:28 am

Nah I do like the Sonata... And at AUD$180 inc PSU yes you are right it's not exactly cheap :P (although still alot less than say a HX-520 + decent case).

PSU serves my purpose... it's not being stressed at all and is not noisy, being the EarthWatts rather than the notorious SmartPower in the previous model, I have no issue with it at all...

Proper fans, I'm definitely working on. It sounds like it's going to be 2x Nexus 120mm and possibly down the road a new fan for the Tuniq, although it sounds like this is going to take some proper research... I am thankful that it looks like it can be replaced without removing the sink - it's a bugger!! (to give you an idea, I need to take the rear case fan out to access one of the mobo mounts... agh)

Das_Saunamies I have to apologise I did not see your earlier post. I'm well read up as of today on the limitations of the case, I'm happy with the case still despite this. I'm not seeking perfection, just a decent combination of near silence and some improved cooling (with the addition of the extra fan).

On to the next note... I ripped apart the case and re-cabled the lot... it was very obvious it was my first build and quite frankly it was a horrible mess. Probably didn't help the situation. Also found that the case fan (TriCool) was mistakenly set to medium which probably played some part in my unhappiness with the volume. Now down to a very mild humming/gushing.

Updated pic... shoulda taken a before pic.. but that would just scare you now :P

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/ ... CF1361.jpg

alfhenrik
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Post by alfhenrik » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:14 am

mrinsane19 wrote:Nah I meant plug it into the CPU connector, run the CPU fan off that plus all the case fans,,, but I imagine the smart monitoring would trip out :P
The quad connector plugs straight onto your powersupply, so you could still run your CPU fan of the CPU fan header...this one would probably be the easiest one seeing as you have more than 1 fan that you need to silence :P

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:41 am

No problem - and you have an admirably tidy case, components kept to a minimum and everything tucked away nicely. :)

That huge tower sink is certainly blocking flow in that space, so a 120mm PSU would help you more than a front fan - although the PSU would then intake hot air. Whether or not that would result in a noise penalty would depend entirely on how hot that thing gets, what PSU you would get et cetera, but all a front fan can hope to accomplish is cooling HDDs - it will only harm your VGA as it will push back the cool air that would otherwise flow in from the rear vent! Your RAM doesn't even have heatspreaders so I assume it's doing just fine, and the chipset looks sturdy enough to fend for itself.

Front fan in a Sonata I/II/III is not worth the noise and clutter tradeoff, in my opinion. I've owned I and II, and the front fan has never helped component temperatures, just HDD cooling(I have 3, so it's crowded in there). You'll also run into trouble with such a long VGA and the rear-mounted connector. I wouldn't get it if I were you. :wink:

And I know the installation pains, more often than not I have to remove my exhaust fan to tinker with mobo or CPU.
--

This is just my opinion, but the CPU cooler doesn't look to be too good a match for that case. There's not enough space around it for dissipation, and the rear is so close to the case's back wall that there's bound to be pressure issues. In other words: even though it's a powerhouse when it comes to taking heat away from CPU, it has nowhere to put it so it probably just keeps heating up. :idea:

You've tried the stock cooler and apparently that wasn't very good, but how would you feel about investing that 20 EUR = ?? AUD(Nexus 120mm), plus whatever you save by not getting a new PSU, into one more cooler purchase? I'd be willing to bet that something less colossal with a better flow structure would improve cooling more than just adding mismatched pressure in the case with new fans.

Zalman fans are rather awkward, but their cooler design is solid. I have a 9500 AM2 that improved case airflow(no more RAM crashes!) and was small enough to accommodate comfortably in a mid-tower like Sonata. Even during Battlefield 2142 the fan RPMs stay low enough to not become an issue or even an annoyance. The main advantage is the way the cooler keeps cooling mobo components whereas towers usually don't. It's also slightly smaller than either the Mini Ninja or Tower 120.

If you'd rather have SPCR-approved, how about a Scythe Ninja Mini - good for low-flow, only 3/4 of the Tuniq's size and weight? I'm not sure how an Ultima-90 would fare with low airflow.
--

Image
Pic of my 9500, no clutter or blockage.

mrinsane19
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Post by mrinsane19 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:35 pm

Retype... I am not going to edit again when I change my mind :P have cut this down to as logical as I can make it.

CPU Cooler - Ninja seems to have issues with LGA775 mount, not keen on lapping CPU. Besides, people report higher temps than Tuniq which I do not want. Even if the tuniq is somewhat retarded I still can't see enough value or additional performance in changing it. There just doesn't seem to be anything that can bring down temps garanteed.

Fan - I'm stumped. The best fans I can get locally are the Scythe S-Flex D/E/F or the Nexus Real Silent. Neither of these (at 1000/1200RPM) seem to offer much over the TriCool. Staying at the same noise levels I can at best get an exta 9CFM (30% more) with a Scythe 1600RPM @ 7v (I would use speedfan though). This is nice but not sure how significat this will be (input pls!!)

Instead of the front case fan (since reportedly it's pretty crap) I could look at something like a Scythe Kama Bay but would need to leave the front door open. Not sure on the noise claims either... seems low. Plus if it's the 800RPM model it may be subject to ticking.

RAM - Not interested/not needed

PSU - Too expensive quite simply. If I were to change I'd probably go a HX-520 with the 120mm fan and also cut down cable clutter but these are about $165, almost as much as the sonata + psu cost me.

GPU - Interested in the Accelero S1, but would have to first confirm the make of my card to see if these issues apply. Additionally would have to ensire enough airflow over the card - certainly not happening at the moment.
alfhenrik wrote:
mrinsane19 wrote:Nah I meant plug it into the CPU connector, run the CPU fan off that plus all the case fans,,, but I imagine the smart monitoring would trip out :P
The quad connector plugs straight onto your powersupply, so you could still run your CPU fan of the CPU fan header...this one would probably be the easiest one seeing as you have more than 1 fan that you need to silence :P
Will check the PSU has the 4 pin connector (we're talking fan 4 pin and not molex aren't we??). If so this seems good.. If I end up making a PCCG order I'll get one chucked in.

Conclusion

So for now - I think I will remount the Tuniq with some AS5, standard stuff didn't seem amazing and was also my first time mounting a HSF - I have no idea if I botched it or what. All the filters etc in the case got cleaned last night when I did the cabling so that is no issue. I will try figure out what exactly is making the most noise... I have a couple of other tricks up my sleeve for getting the cables even tidyer but that will have to wait for a PCCG order.

Any other input... please let me know! I'm trying to keep costs down, so nothing extravagant at this point please... but any tips or tricks with fan placement in this case, stuff like that would be awesome :)

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:23 pm

Said it once, saying it again: a CPU cooler isn't all about size and pipes, it's also about dissipation efficiency. If it can't dissipate, the heat keeps building up, resulting in higher temperatures.

What an S-Flex or a Nexus offers over Tri-Cool is better noise character. Quite possibly they'll be less annoying at more RPM, which means more CFM. In your current setup you need a whole lot of exhaust RPM because your exhaust is blocked, and there's only a single 120mm effectively doing it. Doubt there's enough pressure being generated to form a flow from bottom to top that would cool the GPU and provide cool air for the CPU cooler. An added front fan might just hamper that flow even more.

A Kama Bay or any other intake will just increase positive pressure - it won't help the fact your case is not exhausting properly. You can try to cram in all the cool air you'd like, but heat will defeat it in the end. You'd need a very open case structure for convection and positive pressure to work.

I'd rather pick a Zalman GPU cooler. Proven designs, even if the fans aren't the best. With proper adjustment the fan will hardly be a problem though, depending on GPU.

Conclusion: If you installed per manufacturer instructions I doubt you can improve temperatures much even if you use a 'better' paste. Someone link that toothpaste thing please. :D I'm rather convinced it's just because airflow is messed up and the CPU cooler can't dissipate properly. Would have to see temperature graphs and hear comparisons from other Q6600 users though.

mrinsane19
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Post by mrinsane19 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:53 pm

I absolutely get what you're saying about the cooler! It's just hard to quantify how much it's being retarded by lack of exhaust - hence hard to tell what will actually cool better than this thing... this is my problem. I don't have the money to throw away on taking a chance with a cooler. I *suspect* I'm out about 10c becuase of the poor exhaust. I'll have a play tonight and see if different settings on the tri-cool make a significant difference to CPU temps.

I know you've suggested the Ninja Mini or Zalman 9500.. I have a bad feeling about the mini, will do some more reading on the 9500. The TT Ultima-90 caught my eye but going on your theory of less is more (in regards to fins) it seems to be out for the count... being just as dense as the Tuniq.

Will skip the GPU cooling for now I think... till I get the CPU cooling going. Front fans I will not add for now also, as per your recommendation.

What would be your pick for a rear fan... Nexus @1000RPM or Scythe S-Flex E (1200RPM)?

And THANKYOU! for your help and advice so far! As you may have noticed I tend to get way ahead of myself sometimes ;)

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:27 am

You're welcome, glad my experiences with Sonatas can be of some use. :)

The Ultima-90 would leave more room for air to circulate, so fin density would only be a problem if you wanted to have a low-RPM fan on it. I can't really say what a Ninja Mini or an Ultima-90 would be like, I have only used Zalmans, and have been completely satisfied - even if the noise has been rough at times(before I learned that I didn't actually need anywhere near the RPM I was using).

SPCR testing as well as other reviews suggest the N-Mini and Ultima-90 are just as good at dissipating heat as the heavier sinks, so they are a rather safe bet. Unless it's a superhot chip or heavily overclocked, the smaller versions hold their ground against most of the bigger sinks in terms of noise and cooling power.

Just so you know, the 9700 seems constantly worse in all areas when compared to the 9500. Just check SPCR reviews for some examples.

Front fans in Sonatas have only worked to cool my 3 HDDs. GPU temperatures have always gone up or been the same and chipset cooling hasn't improved either. The case is so awfully restricted that the fan just can't pull in enough cool air to make a difference if the exhausts are proper.

I'd rather take the 1200RPM S-Flex if those are the only choices. There's more leeway for experimentation with the extra RPM. I also prefer medium-speed fans for exhaust because that way the pressure balance is right as I use low-speed fans for intake.

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Post by mrinsane19 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:43 pm

Stuffed around last night with the bios... ditched the back plate fan controller and went purely bios control.

Seems to have a lower minimum RPM... getting down to 550RPM when IIRC the controller was 1000-2000RPM. Temps not really any different... but neither is the noise really.

Current setup - TriCool on medium seems to be the sweet spot. Temps drop by 4-5 at idle and 2-3 at load. High setting just seems to jump around more, indicating the case probably just can't draw in enough air at once (same thing at idle and load). Maybe replacing this for a similar flowing Scythe S-Flex E will do the trick... and be a whole lot quieter. It seems however that the case is the limitation. At peak loads it just can't feed enough air into the cooler/case fan.

Zalman 9500 - I'm not sure that on low fan speed it's going to bring my temps down enough... it's good - but I'm not sure it's quite that good. It's like a "good" HS performing well, compared to an excellent cooler (lets ignore noise for now) performing poorly. Even despite the setbacks - the Tuniq still does compare ok to more moderate solutions.

Ninja RevB - also had some thoughts about this but at the end of the day the LGA775 mounting issues scare me off.

I totally get what's being said about the Tuniq - I think the new fan should at least partly solve that and keep noise down. However I still can't see a cooler that's going to perform that much better - at low noise/fan speeds - to justify the expense. The Ninja is possibly the one exception but it sounds like too much of a lucky dip. A new case is the other alternative but way way more $$ than I am prepared to throw at this right now. A Solo with no PSU is $135.. ouch.

A few things I will try with the Tuniq...

Matched Scythe "E" fans both on the case and in the tuniq. Within the Tuniq this seems to offer the same performance as the "low" setting but should ideally be quieter. Plus with the matched fans it should remove alot of the backpressure. The case fan should perform much the same as the TriCool on medium which as previously stated seems to be the sweet spot for flow... and will be quiet also. For reference, the tuniq doesn't seem to perform that much better with the stock fan on high, just makes alot of noise. The Scythe E caps out about the same performance as the low setting but given I was happy with this before I don't see this being an issue. If it becomes problematic I can put something else in later (1600RPM eg).

This cuts the two main fans to near-silent fans, leaving just the GPU which I can evaluate later.

Thoughts?

(and sorry to keep banging on about the Tuniq, I just really want to avoid chucking it).

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:16 pm

My thoughts: Tuniq is great, case and space are not, so it can't perform to the full extent of that greatness. :D

The time for discussion is over I think, we've pretty much exhausted all options. You should try and find data of a Q6600 being used with different coolers in a Sonata, see if the results differ from yours.

One last metaphor: you can use an 18-wheeler to move house, but it'll have a tough time fitting through city streets, whereas a van may not be as powerful or spacious, but will be able to better use its capacity. :wink:

mrinsane19
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Post by mrinsane19 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:48 pm

I've had a bit of a look... the temps are on the high side for a B3 but plenty of others reporting similar. A few reporting less and obviously the G0 does much better. So overall it's probably not an issue with the install, just a bad combination.

Basically comes down to (probably in this order) -
1) the fans (I can swap those as soon as I get them). Worst case scenario temps stay the same and fan noise drops... best case it might even out the air flow and drop things very slightly. I'm happy with just a noise reduction though (not getting hopes up :P).

2) Undervolting. I'm not planning on an o/c and apparently the C2D/C2Q line can take a nice vcore drop and still be absolutely stable. I hear of some people running Q6600's undervolted and overclocked to 3ghz too + running somewhat near stock temps. Sooo.. that will be a weekend project... sometime.. but I am fairly confident in doing that myself.

3) Lapping. One review I read made some remarks about the base of the TT120 and weren't impressed with it. TBH I didn't really look at it before I throw it on. I will give this a shot on the tuniq but definitely not on the CPU..

4) AS5. I wasn't confident with the goop Tuniq supplied.. it was quite thick and I have no idea if I applied it correctly or not, it was pretty tricky stuff to get applied. I'll remount with AS5 after the lapping.

By the sounds of things... this should a) reduce my noise to near silent (some users report the Scythe E as silent even) and b) hopefully get load temps under 60.

Will report back on each step hopefully :) Might start a gallery page or something with a progress log so it doesn't get lost... might be a useful reference and steer someone away from this case/cooler combo :P

Thankyou for your help all, most specifically Das_Saunamies!

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:40 am

Heh, you're welcome. :)

Hope you find a way to make the best of it!

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Post by mrinsane19 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:27 pm

Well as it turns out I was able to try undervolting last night - with good success. I was able to reduce to the CPU's minimum VID (short test stable only at this point, haven't run long term).

Temps down 7c so far... should be sub 60 as of this morning with a lower ambient - last night was quite warm inside.

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:41 pm

Sounds good to me, sometimes a little software trickery is the best option.

Just out of interest, how'd you go about spreading the TIM?

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Post by mrinsane19 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:59 pm

Old credit card... it was a thick sticky grey goop, more solid that liquid...

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:25 am

In that case the AS5 + pressure trick might yield better results. It's easier to get right for a first-timer.

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Post by mrinsane19 » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:45 pm

That's what I'm thinking :) Pretty hard to stuff it up if it spreads itself.

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Post by Das_Saunamies » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:29 pm

Yes and no... as you can't see what's happening, you have no idea if the spread has been successful. :wink: It's pretty much foolproof though, as long as the amount is right.

I've got the original AS, and I've been using the credit card method so far with good results. I gave the pressure method a try, and the temperatures are now just as good. Initially I used the uncooked-grain-of-rice amount, but the spread wasn't as even as with the credit card method. Had I botched the positioning or pressure application I might've missed the core some. I reapplied with just a bit more and got a firmer seating - getting the lever system to cooperate was still a bitch though. :D

Pressure is fine and hassle-free, but old credit cards still have their uses.

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