Would a Server Rack that Reduces Noise Need to be over 25U?

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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Would a Server Rack that Reduces Noise Need to be over 25U?

Post by server_rack » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:44 am

Hi All,


Our company makes the XRackPro2 server rack that reduces noise. The tallest model we currently make is a 25U. We have been debating making a taller cabinet (full height 42U or 45U?) but we do not get enough requests for taller than 25U.

I am wondering if there are a lot more interested people that just do not give us feedback, so I am hoping to get some feedback on this forum.

Thanks for your help, it will be seriously considered, so please let me know.
[size=75]Ken

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75 views but no response, any help would be appreciated

Post by server_rack » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:30 am

I noticed 75 people viewed this, but no replies.

Even "gut" feelings or second hand opinions ("my co-worker thinks...") would be appreciated.


Thank you,


Ken
[size=75]Ken

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Post by Aris » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:16 pm

i dont really see many consumers rack mounting their PC's. I've seen it maybe once or twice ever. Its just too big. It makes your computer basically immobile. So yea it may quiet it, but it makes it so much more inconvenient to work on, or move it around.

So imo, you should look at going smaller not bigger. 4U sounds about right. Makes it tall enough that you can still fit a standard size tower heatsink on your CPU.

The problem though isnt the rack, its the enclosure. Theres not a lot of good 4U rack enclosures that are good from an airflow and noise reduction standpoint.

Maybe if you were to partner with antec, and get them to make some sort of rackmount enclosure that has similar characteristics as the P180.

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Post by shleepy » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:31 pm

Aris, I think these would be used more in a business setting (i.e., for servers, etc.), not by consumers...

That said, that's probably the reason for why you're not seeing any posts, server_rack. The vast majority of users on SPCR are end-user consumers who use their PC's for gaming, folding@home, HTPC purposes, internet browsing, etc., etc.

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Re: 75 views but no response, any help would be appreciated

Post by xan_user » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:56 pm

server_rack wrote:I noticed 75 people viewed this, but no replies.

Even "gut" feelings or second hand opinions ("my co-worker thinks...") would be appreciated.


Thank you,


Ken

To me servers are meant, by design, to be in their own room. so why bother?


(there are threads in the test forum with thousands of views ;) )

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Re: 75 views but no response, any help would be appreciated

Post by m^2 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:34 pm

xan_user wrote:
server_rack wrote:I noticed 75 people viewed this, but no replies.

Even "gut" feelings or second hand opinions ("my co-worker thinks...") would be appreciated.


Thank you,


Ken

To me servers are meant, by design, to be in their own room. so why bother?


(there are threads in the test forum with thousands of views ;) )
In small companies - not always.
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Re: 75 views but no response, any help would be appreciated

Post by psiu » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:28 pm

m^2 wrote:
xan_user wrote:
server_rack wrote:I noticed 75 people viewed this, but no replies.
Even "gut" feelings or second hand opinions ("my co-worker thinks...") would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Ken
To me servers are meant, by design, to be in their own room. so why bother?
(there are threads in the test forum with thousands of views ;) )
In small companies - not always.
But larger than 25U?
I forget who but someone on here had a smaller rack, maybe a 10U that he used to hold everything.

I would argue that the time and resources invested in making larger racks quieter would not make up for itself in increased sales.

But a line of more affordable smaller racks/cabinets for consumers that is designed to be easier to keep quiet might get a market. Problem with that is pricing, including delivery--shipping on something that large and heavy is always a pretty severe detriment. Kind of kills any "hey that case looks cool I'll buy it" sales. Another problem is then buying the cases themselves to put in the already expensive racks.

Maybe a solution that includes some affordable cases and a shelf or two and empty space would be better for the consumer market.
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Post by Vietor » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:01 pm

As mentioned above, I think the key is that if more than 25U worth of equipment is in use, it is likely that there will also be dedicated server space.

Off topic, but more importantly, is the fact that there is simple not enough information on your website to make any sort of reasonable purchasing decision.

Airflow details? Cable management diagrams? Interior pictures? More than one exterior picture?

It certainly looks like the sort of thing that could improve the quality of life in our testing room, but with the level of detail available there is no chance of a purchase at all.

Mostly joking now, but as these are the SPCR forums ... does your supplier of "4 Ultra quiet, high air flow fans" have Unicorns in stock as well? We could use some of those, the fans that is.

EDIT: Just to clarify. Fans which are ultra quiet, high airflow, and high static pressure (as then need to achieve that high airflow through filtration). It's a classic 'choose two' situation and devalues whatever other claims are made.
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Post by server_rack » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:36 pm

Vietor wrote:As mentioned above, I think the key is that if more than 25U worth of equipment is in use, it is likely that there will also be dedicated server space.

Off topic, but more importantly, is the fact that there is simple not enough information on your website to make any sort of reasonable purchasing decision.

Airflow details? Cable management diagrams? Interior pictures? More than one exterior picture?

It certainly looks like the sort of thing that could improve the quality of life in our testing room, but with the level of detail available there is no chance of a purchase at all.

Mostly joking now, but as these are the SPCR forums ... does your supplier of "4 Ultra quiet, high air flow fans" have Unicorns in stock as well? We could use some of those, the fans that is.

EDIT: Just to clarify. Fans which are ultra quiet, high airflow, and high static pressure (as then need to achieve that high airflow through filtration). It's a classic 'choose two' situation and devalues whatever other claims are made.
Thanks for the reply.

The XRackPro has been on the market for over 9 years and there has been thousands of units sold... just think if we did have better information :)

Seriously, we have been trying to do another revision of the web site, but we out grew our building and had to move to a much larger one. Then, we became even busier, so we hope to get back to that project soon.

And yes, the fans are pretty quiet "for the amount of air they move." Each fan is 76 CFM, yet only 30 db; so that is the reason for the claim.

Thanks again for the feedback, I will pass that on to upper management.

Ken
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Re: 75 views but no response, any help would be appreciated

Post by server_rack » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:46 pm

psiu wrote:
m^2 wrote:
xan_user wrote: To me servers are meant, by design, to be in their own room. so why bother?
(there are threads in the test forum with thousands of views ;) )
In small companies - not always.
But larger than 25U?
I forget who but someone on here had a smaller rack, maybe a 10U that he used to hold everything.

I would argue that the time and resources invested in making larger racks quieter would not make up for itself in increased sales.

But a line of more affordable smaller racks/cabinets for consumers that is designed to be easier to keep quiet might get a market. Problem with that is pricing, including delivery--shipping on something that large and heavy is always a pretty severe detriment. Kind of kills any "hey that case looks cool I'll buy it" sales. Another problem is then buying the cases themselves to put in the already expensive racks.

Maybe a solution that includes some affordable cases and a shelf or two and empty space would be better for the consumer market.

Thanks for your reply,

Your thought about the smaller racks is good, great minds think alike...we have a 4U and 6U model for the needs of someone with less equipment, then the 12U for more capacity.

You are right about shipping cost; since we use solid steel to get rid of low frequencies (and for a nice looking enclosure that can hold a lot of weight), shipping is more expensive than your average item shipped Fed Ex ground.

The shelf idea is right on, but because there are so many 3rd party shelves on the market already, we just direct people to purchase them online.

Great input, I appreciate the extra thought that went into that.


Ken
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Post by Vietor » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:09 pm

server_rack wrote: Thanks for the reply.

The XRackPro has been on the market for over 9 years and there has been thousands of units sold... just think if we did have better information :)

Seriously, we have been trying to do another revision of the web site, but we out grew our building and had to move to a much larger one. Then, we became even busier, so we hope to get back to that project soon.

And yes, the fans are pretty quiet "for the amount of air they move." Each fan is 76 CFM, yet only 30 db; so that is the reason for the claim.

Thanks again for the feedback, I will pass that on to upper management.

Ken
No surprise that it's a successful product. From the high level description provided on the website, it really looks like a useful piece of gear and I fully plan to look into it further the next time we upgrade our infrastructure.

The criticism was intended to be constructive, levity of the Unicorn comment notwithstanding. It is difficult to get excited about a product without being able to get lots of information about it, though perhaps that is just me. I'd suggest trying to get SPCR to do a review, but I can't imagine that they would have anything to put in it that would be anywhere near as loud as the fans ...

I can fully empathize about the website updates being ever delayed, as we can't exactly get up on a high horse about that one ourselves. However I also know that direct feedback from potential customers is useful, so as simply put as possible More pictures!'.

I'm not doubting that they are reasonable fans that provide a nice compromise between noise and airflow. I'm just pointing out that around here 'Ultra Quiet' is held to an almost amusingly high standard.
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Post by bonestonne » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:17 pm

It was JamesG who put his stuff in a rack (i only remember because that's my name too).

I work in an educational based radio station at my high school, and we tend to buy "cheaper" racks, to conserve money, but when it comes down to the servers that we once had running, I can't say they were noisy enough to warrant a "noise reducing rack." By no means can I say that a noise reducing rack wouldn't help out (being a radio/TV station, nearly everything is rack mounted, from power amps to mixers). But also, at the same time, a larger rack would definitely be more of a novelty type of item, simply because if there's so much on that rack that makes that much noise, it typically wont be around everything else. Similarly, in IMAX theaters, there are whole separate rooms for the many power amps used to keep all hundred whatever speakers going during the showings, it wouldn't be something you could have back behind the screen near the speakers at all.

From the perspective of handing lots of rackmount equipment, I'd say I'd find more use in tall racks that had fins on the sides, maybe not large ones, but enough to dissipate heat, as well as large blocks with heatpipes that fit between items to prevent things from basically toasting each other. In our main studio, because our transmitter is never on 24/7, we have the remote for our microwave link, our EAS receiver, and the interrupt unit in case the EAS ever goes off during a show without warning. All of these are kept powered on 24/7 just in case, and they definitely generate lots of heat. before silencing anything, I'd rather see something with the capabilities of cooling that with more than just rackmount fan units. Reason being is that the unit is inside the studio, so the noise floor needs to be kept at the absolute minimum, we use a pair of mics similar to the EV RE20's, but they aren't the RE20's, some other model (but they're EVs). With the amount of noise those mics pic up, it's horrible to have a ton of fans running in the studio. Granted the racks in there are maybe 20 units high, it's a bothersome size when we're working, much less actually broadcasting.

and on a side tangent, it would be really cool to see rack units start to come with built in cable management that doesn't cost a few extra zeros before the decimal point.

/rant
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Post by server_rack » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:41 pm

Vietor wrote:
No surprise that it's a successful product. From the high level description provided on the website, it really looks like a useful piece of gear and I fully plan to look into it further the next time we upgrade our infrastructure.

The criticism was intended to be constructive, levity of the Unicorn comment notwithstanding. It is difficult to get excited about a product without being able to get lots of information about it, though perhaps that is just me. I'd suggest trying to get SPCR to do a review, but I can't imagine that they would have anything to put in it that would be anywhere near as loud as the fans ...

I can fully empathize about the website updates being ever delayed, as we can't exactly get up on a high horse about that one ourselves. However I also know that direct feedback from potential customers is useful, so as simply put as possible More pictures!'.

I'm not doubting that they are reasonable fans that provide a nice compromise between noise and airflow. I'm just pointing out that around here 'Ultra Quiet' is held to an almost amusingly high standard.

I did take the criticism constructively, I apologize if it seemed different, I / we appreciate that.

We will try a review from the "Gods" themselves, it might be a good alternative. You can imagine that sometimes people are stuck with equipment that can not be modified for one reason or another and some other method would need to be used.

As far as the fans go, I know most people on this site are use to smaller, quieter fans for a single chassis. We use 120 mm size fans to move the kind of air required (70+ CFM each) to cool up to 25U of equipment, so limiting them to 30 db is stealthy with these big boys.

Thanks for the input :)
[size=75]Ken

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Post by edh » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:29 pm

I'm actually a bit interested in some rack mount equipment right now as it happens, but not in the standard server room way.

I'm thinking about putting together a system made up of lots of rack mount electronics and computers where the units would sit in a rack around 1m high with a big set of wheels on the bottom of it so that it can be moved into position for taking measurements in a lab. The rack mount trolley would have to be shrouded to keep things from being damaged although it doesn't have to be bomb proof. The front of the rack would have to be accessible so that various test cables can be rigged up to the system by a user.

A keyboard, a mouse and a monitor might then sit on the top.

Silence isn't vital for this application but being non-deafening is a big plus.

I've seen a few things like this before but can't seem to find a source. I've thought also of bolting half a rack under some kind of big trolley to get a similar effect.
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Post by server_rack » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:20 pm

edh wrote:I'm actually a bit interested in some rack mount equipment right now as it happens, but not in the standard server room way.

I'm thinking about putting together a system made up of lots of rack mount electronics and computers where the units would sit in a rack around 1m high with a big set of wheels on the bottom of it so that it can be moved into position for taking measurements in a lab. The rack mount trolley would have to be shrouded to keep things from being damaged although it doesn't have to be bomb proof. The front of the rack would have to be accessible so that various test cables can be rigged up to the system by a user.

A keyboard, a mouse and a monitor might then sit on the top.

Silence isn't vital for this application but being non-deafening is a big plus.

I've seen a few things like this before but can't seem to find a source. I've thought also of bolting half a rack under some kind of big trolley to get a similar effect.

I noticed you are from the UK, if you like our rack, we have 2 UK distributors and I can discuss this with you offline if you have questions...please visit our web site; all our U.S. and International distributors are listed on the site.


Thank you,


Ken
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Post by server_rack » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:29 pm

bonestonne wrote:It was JamesG who put his stuff in a rack (i only remember because that's my name too).

I work in an educational based radio station at my high school, and we tend to buy "cheaper" racks, to conserve money, but when it comes down to the servers that we once had running, I can't say they were noisy enough to warrant a "noise reducing rack." By no means can I say that a noise reducing rack wouldn't help out (being a radio/TV station, nearly everything is rack mounted, from power amps to mixers). But also, at the same time, a larger rack would definitely be more of a novelty type of item, simply because if there's so much on that rack that makes that much noise, it typically wont be around everything else. Similarly, in IMAX theaters, there are whole separate rooms for the many power amps used to keep all hundred whatever speakers going during the showings, it wouldn't be something you could have back behind the screen near the speakers at all.

From the perspective of handing lots of rackmount equipment, I'd say I'd find more use in tall racks that had fins on the sides, maybe not large ones, but enough to dissipate heat, as well as large blocks with heatpipes that fit between items to prevent things from basically toasting each other. In our main studio, because our transmitter is never on 24/7, we have the remote for our microwave link, our EAS receiver, and the interrupt unit in case the EAS ever goes off during a show without warning. All of these are kept powered on 24/7 just in case, and they definitely generate lots of heat. before silencing anything, I'd rather see something with the capabilities of cooling that with more than just rackmount fan units. Reason being is that the unit is inside the studio, so the noise floor needs to be kept at the absolute minimum, we use a pair of mics similar to the EV RE20's, but they aren't the RE20's, some other model (but they're EVs). With the amount of noise those mics pic up, it's horrible to have a ton of fans running in the studio. Granted the racks in there are maybe 20 units high, it's a bothersome size when we're working, much less actually broadcasting.

and on a side tangent, it would be really cool to see rack units start to come with built in cable management that doesn't cost a few extra zeros before the decimal point.

/rant

Thank you for the reply, I am hoping to get more like this.

Education is one of our bigger markets, but from the smaller racks as you thought. K-12 tends to have decentralized computer systems scattered throughout the grounds.

Higher Ed on the other hand, usually have more centralized systems, but there may be servers and RAID systems in every building with varying amounts of equipment...some of these locations have asked about taller racks with noise reduction.

By the way, our noise reducing racks use to have cable management included, but we found most people had a different idea of what they wanted. Customers usually wanted a different system than was included, so we stopped including it and just recommend customers choose a cable management system on their own.


Thanks for the input,


Ken
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Post by psiu » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:14 pm

As a side note--I'm in the IBEW on the low voltage side, and if you can make more of the comm closets we go into quieter, that's always appreciated.

Though we get into bigger stuff a lot, building the 4 or 2 post racks themselves, or if the cabinets are used they are generally part of the "system" we are installing if smaller (ie the phone system perhaps).

Healthcare, industrial, schools, commercial. Cable management is generally either specced precisely by the customer (like in a hospital, you will have blueprints for EVERYTHING and there is no deviation) or very loosely (retail store wants this many phones etc, company wins the bid and they spec the cheapest thing they can come up with) and we put in whatever gets dumped at the job site for us.

A big closet with lots of stuff running just won't be too quiet no matter how you slice it generally.
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Post by server_rack » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:16 am

psiu wrote:As a side note--I'm in the IBEW on the low voltage side, and if you can make more of the comm closets we go into quieter, that's always appreciated.

Though we get into bigger stuff a lot, building the 4 or 2 post racks themselves, or if the cabinets are used they are generally part of the "system" we are installing if smaller (ie the phone system perhaps).

Healthcare, industrial, schools, commercial. Cable management is generally either specced precisely by the customer (like in a hospital, you will have blueprints for EVERYTHING and there is no deviation) or very loosely (retail store wants this many phones etc, company wins the bid and they spec the cheapest thing they can come up with) and we put in whatever gets dumped at the job site for us.

A big closet with lots of stuff running just won't be too quiet no matter how you slice it generally.

Thanks

I/we never claim to be inexpensive and are in touch with reality, so I/we know the XRackPro2 is a niche product. Unfortunately, some companies, schools, organizations, etc. are almost forced to put computer equipment near people some times and that is where our XRackPro comes in.

There are other companies that make similar but different products, so we know it is not just our company thinking there is a need. Because they have mandates for noise reduction, the UK is where most our competition is located...we are hoping for mandates like that in the United States and the rest of the world of course. :)
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Post by xan_user » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:33 pm

Any talk of SPCR staff testing the same hardware in a standard rack and one in a XRackPro2?
8)

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Post by server_rack » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:34 pm

xan_user wrote:Any talk of SPCR staff testing the same hardware in a standard rack and one in a XRackPro2?
8)

I/we would like a review of the XRackPro2, does the staff monitor this section close enough that they would answer us?

There is a server rack review at http://weblog.infoworld.com/yager/archi ... _cu_3.html is you need one before we can arrange one here.
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Re: 75 views but no response, any help would be appreciated

Post by server_rack » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:01 pm

m^2 wrote:
xan_user wrote:
server_rack wrote:I noticed 75 people viewed this, but no replies.

Even "gut" feelings or second hand opinions ("my co-worker thinks...") would be appreciated.


Thank you,


Ken

To me servers are meant, by design, to be in their own room. so why bother?


(there are threads in the test forum with thousands of views ;) )
In small companies - not always.

Thanks for that short, but true, statement. Although, you would be surprised how many large organizations have smaller, decentralized computers throughout their locations.

Army, Navy, Air Force, etc. ...FBI, Homeland Security, IRS, etc. ...NASA, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, etc...you would not think of those as small companies but they are not only customers, but repeat customers, to name a few.
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Post by server_rack » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:08 pm

server_rack wrote:
There is a server rack review at http://weblog.infoworld.com/yager/archi ... _cu_3.html .
It looks like someone hacked Info World and took down our review (and just our review page only...hmmm); luckily the same review is posted on the Australian Sister web site TechWorld : http://www.techworld.com.au/article/216 ... _my_dreams
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