I've got a Lian-Li PC-60USB and I've done some math on the front grille..
In each grille there are 100 holes, each 4mm in diameter. That's 1256mm2 in total area..
An 80 mm dia. hole (less the 35mm dia core of a fan) would have an area of 4064 mm2.
Therefore only about 30.5 percent of the possible area is used for airflow.. probably even less because the holes are small and have sharp edges.
So.. how's about cutting out the holed grille and replacing it with a chrome wired grille?
On the plus side airflow will be tripled (ergo slower fans) but on the down side it'll probably let noise out.
Any thoughts about this? anyone try it? Does it let more noise out?
DonP.
Cutting out front fan grilles (specifically Lian-Li PC60)
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MikeC
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Personally, I think that would ruin the look of the case -- and aren't looks mostly why you bought it? If it is at all feasible, cut out the bottom lip of the bezel. As long as the bottom of the bezel has ~1" clearance from the floor, you'd get much better airflow. Here is an example of what I am talking about, from the Silencing a P4-1.6 oc'd to 2.0 article
Yeah, I know, it would be uglier, and looks were part of the reason for buying this case. I've already cut out the stamped grille in the back and the result is much less heat going into the PSU (Antec TruPower 380W) and so the PSU fans run much slower and quietly (can't say for sure how quiet.. ATM there are other fans which are louder).
As to your suggestion of cutting the hole in the bottom - unfortunately I can't - I have USB ports there. Cutting slots in the sides of the front panel would be ugly.
But after all of the calculations (on the SPRC fan spreadsheet) of possible airflow with new fans I now realise that the front grille impedes airflow by 70%!! So I'm currently waiting on quiet fans and a few other bits.. when I get them then I'll contemplate cutting the holes, if I do then I'll report my findings (and pictures) here.
Thanks,
DonP.
As to your suggestion of cutting the hole in the bottom - unfortunately I can't - I have USB ports there. Cutting slots in the sides of the front panel would be ugly.
But after all of the calculations (on the SPRC fan spreadsheet) of possible airflow with new fans I now realise that the front grille impedes airflow by 70%!! So I'm currently waiting on quiet fans and a few other bits.. when I get them then I'll contemplate cutting the holes, if I do then I'll report my findings (and pictures) here.
Thanks,
DonP.
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sgtpokey
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I have the same case, and I'm curious, the front fans for me are not primary noise culprits (and my case temps are fine) so I haven't worried about cutting the front grill. What I have done, however, is:
* I assume you have the two front fans' speed setting to low?
* Note that there's an inside grill that keeps the filter in place.
* Note that this inside grill ALSO is also restricting airflow, also the holes don't match up with the holes on the front grill!!
* Now note that you don't actually need that inside grill, the filter can happily sit in roughly the same area if you remove that grill.
* So if you remove that grill, and I'm not sure if you've already done that, then you've reduced the impedance by roughly 50% right there.
No cosmetic change, but hopefully a small difference in airflow and noise.
* I assume you have the two front fans' speed setting to low?
* Note that there's an inside grill that keeps the filter in place.
* Note that this inside grill ALSO is also restricting airflow, also the holes don't match up with the holes on the front grill!!
* Now note that you don't actually need that inside grill, the filter can happily sit in roughly the same area if you remove that grill.
* So if you remove that grill, and I'm not sure if you've already done that, then you've reduced the impedance by roughly 50% right there.
No cosmetic change, but hopefully a small difference in airflow and noise.
My front fans aren't necessarily my main noise culprits either, but the fans inside and my temps are higher than I want.. therefore I want to increase airflow... and to me it's shocking that the front grille blocks 70% of airflow!
What's the point of the Excel spreadsheet on SPCR for "2 in 2 out" if it's only really "0.6 in"?
Yes, the fans are set to low.. I'm contemplating quieter fans (but they really are pretty quiet already) - maybe I'll get better airflow for the same noise.
About the grille holding the dust filter.. I don't know if you mean removing both the filter and filter grille but I definately want to keep the filter.. the filter grille in my PC60 is actually quite small and unobtrusive.
Earlier the PC was doing some stuff so I couldn't mess but now I've had a chance to mess around a bit and found that without the front panel
the temp deltas (MBM measured temp less ambient of 22C) are like this:
With filter, with panel: case 8.5C, CPU(loaded) 28.5C
With filter, no panel: case 8.0C, CPU(loaded) 28.0C
No filter, no panel: case 7.4C, CPU(loaded) 27.4C
All measurements on low fan setting, probable only accurate to +-1C.
So I guess it isn't much of a difference.. and that's weird because I can actually feel an increase in airflow in the rear fans when I remove the front panel (leaving the filter).
Anyway, I think I'll leave it for now - when things become really dire with airflow (I install a gfx heatpipe, mod the PSU fans and install noise absorbing foam) then maybe I'll reconsider.
Thanks everybody for all the advice!
DonP.
What's the point of the Excel spreadsheet on SPCR for "2 in 2 out" if it's only really "0.6 in"?
Yes, the fans are set to low.. I'm contemplating quieter fans (but they really are pretty quiet already) - maybe I'll get better airflow for the same noise.
About the grille holding the dust filter.. I don't know if you mean removing both the filter and filter grille but I definately want to keep the filter.. the filter grille in my PC60 is actually quite small and unobtrusive.
Earlier the PC was doing some stuff so I couldn't mess but now I've had a chance to mess around a bit and found that without the front panel
the temp deltas (MBM measured temp less ambient of 22C) are like this:
With filter, with panel: case 8.5C, CPU(loaded) 28.5C
With filter, no panel: case 8.0C, CPU(loaded) 28.0C
No filter, no panel: case 7.4C, CPU(loaded) 27.4C
All measurements on low fan setting, probable only accurate to +-1C.
So I guess it isn't much of a difference.. and that's weird because I can actually feel an increase in airflow in the rear fans when I remove the front panel (leaving the filter).
Anyway, I think I'll leave it for now - when things become really dire with airflow (I install a gfx heatpipe, mod the PSU fans and install noise absorbing foam) then maybe I'll reconsider.
Thanks everybody for all the advice!
DonP.
I have a Lian-Li PC10 (not sure they make it anymore) which is very much like the PC60, but is beige with a plastic front bezel. The noise of the air going through, and being obstructed by, the intake area was pretty annoying. I located a place that cut out the intake area, replaced it with two 80mm wire grills set in clear acrylic, so it's pretty much what you're talking about. Running two L1A's at about 7v. for intake, there was a very noticable decrease in the sound that I found annoying, although probably some increase in interior noise escaping. I found that I could get the same case temps running the intakes at a lower speed, and that the net result was much better from the quiet perspective.
Re cutting holes...
o Cutting holes in alloy/steel
---- best way is a hole punch (Q-Max)
---- yet they are expensive, but shop around
---- alternatively bounce them around clubs and such for 1ukp/hole
---- remember to lube them before each use tho
o Cutting holes in plastic
---- holesaw which fits concentrically on the mandrel
------- most don't resulting in an ovoid hole & a mess
---- it helps to cut a hole where the edge is directly under a grill ring
------- that masks the hole definition
---- ideally paint the grill to match the case plastic & find a flat-grill
------- putting the grill flush against the case masks the hole definition
---- if the area behind the grill is then unsightly, use a wide open mesh
------- ideally 68% free air or better (4R5 in perforation IIRC)
------- easy enough to paint the mesh similarly
Agreed, most cases have very poor air inlet c/sectional area and
remember axial fans produce very little static pressure - and so very
little suction. Not a lot of airflow thro small holes if a bigger hole nearby,
and so a deweighting of small air hole needs to be applied as a result.
Hence positive pressure cases on many PCs with intake matching exhaust
cfm often STILL have air drawn in thro every hole - because c/sectional
area of the intake is insufficient so actual intake cfm is <<< exhaust cfm.
One final comment:
o If you can fit your case on castors
o You may have a lot of free metal on the base for air-intake
---- this will suck in a little more dust
---- but you can use multiple 80mm inlets or a 92mm fan inlet
---- 120mm fan inlet will work, but for silence 92mm can match 120mm
Many cases are unstable on castors unless weight is near the bottom.
Unfortunately, few cases are like this, so worth bearing in mind.
Treat it as an industrial design project and take your time.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan (Ebay)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.br ... anaflo.htm (Direct Prices)
o Cutting holes in alloy/steel
---- best way is a hole punch (Q-Max)
---- yet they are expensive, but shop around
---- alternatively bounce them around clubs and such for 1ukp/hole
---- remember to lube them before each use tho
o Cutting holes in plastic
---- holesaw which fits concentrically on the mandrel
------- most don't resulting in an ovoid hole & a mess
---- it helps to cut a hole where the edge is directly under a grill ring
------- that masks the hole definition
---- ideally paint the grill to match the case plastic & find a flat-grill
------- putting the grill flush against the case masks the hole definition
---- if the area behind the grill is then unsightly, use a wide open mesh
------- ideally 68% free air or better (4R5 in perforation IIRC)
------- easy enough to paint the mesh similarly
Agreed, most cases have very poor air inlet c/sectional area and
remember axial fans produce very little static pressure - and so very
little suction. Not a lot of airflow thro small holes if a bigger hole nearby,
and so a deweighting of small air hole needs to be applied as a result.
Hence positive pressure cases on many PCs with intake matching exhaust
cfm often STILL have air drawn in thro every hole - because c/sectional
area of the intake is insufficient so actual intake cfm is <<< exhaust cfm.
One final comment:
o If you can fit your case on castors
o You may have a lot of free metal on the base for air-intake
---- this will suck in a little more dust
---- but you can use multiple 80mm inlets or a 92mm fan inlet
---- 120mm fan inlet will work, but for silence 92mm can match 120mm
Many cases are unstable on castors unless weight is near the bottom.
Unfortunately, few cases are like this, so worth bearing in mind.
Treat it as an industrial design project and take your time.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan (Ebay)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.br ... anaflo.htm (Direct Prices)
I have a Lian-Li PC60, fan noise from the front intake fans is not an issue for me, although I've got the variable fan switch on the lowest setting, 5v I assume?
However last night I cut out the rear fan grille and replaced it with a wire grille, I also used rubber grommets to act as fan isolators. The fan is a low volume 80mm panaflo with a zalman fan mate, at the moment running close to the maximum speed. Got the idea from this link on adding a second exhaust fan to the PC60:
http://www.virtual-hideout.net/articles ... print.html
Now when placing my ear close to the back of the case, the noise level seems to have been reduced, namely there's less air turbulence, and the only real noise is of the actual fan mechanism.
However what I really noticed was an increase in air flow, obviously this is very subjective, but I can feel more air flow when placing my hand behind the rear grille.
Anyway I'm happy with my newbie style mod, hell it even looks better than standard
Next step is to mod the HD cage, so I can thread some bungee cord and suspend my Cuda…
However last night I cut out the rear fan grille and replaced it with a wire grille, I also used rubber grommets to act as fan isolators. The fan is a low volume 80mm panaflo with a zalman fan mate, at the moment running close to the maximum speed. Got the idea from this link on adding a second exhaust fan to the PC60:
http://www.virtual-hideout.net/articles ... print.html
Now when placing my ear close to the back of the case, the noise level seems to have been reduced, namely there's less air turbulence, and the only real noise is of the actual fan mechanism.
However what I really noticed was an increase in air flow, obviously this is very subjective, but I can feel more air flow when placing my hand behind the rear grille.
Anyway I'm happy with my newbie style mod, hell it even looks better than standard
Next step is to mod the HD cage, so I can thread some bungee cord and suspend my Cuda…
Wire fingerguards are effective at protecting fans whilst minimising
resistance and airflow turbulence - the open area is very large, >80%.
o Most "punched metal" circular grills are only 45-55% free air
o The "perforated hole grill" can be as little as 35-38% free air
Most people vastly over-estimate the free-air area of grills.
On big speakers with black "wire 4mm hole" steel mesh, which
have just a thin wire of thick steel wire to define the hole, the
free air is still just 68% - the second largest common-mesh.
Only the square hole is better at 73%.
Frequently overlooked obstruction to airflow, and noise source.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.br ... anaflo.htm
resistance and airflow turbulence - the open area is very large, >80%.
o Most "punched metal" circular grills are only 45-55% free air
o The "perforated hole grill" can be as little as 35-38% free air
Most people vastly over-estimate the free-air area of grills.
On big speakers with black "wire 4mm hole" steel mesh, which
have just a thin wire of thick steel wire to define the hole, the
free air is still just 68% - the second largest common-mesh.
Only the square hole is better at 73%.
Frequently overlooked obstruction to airflow, and noise source.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.br ... anaflo.htm
Second case fan in Lian6085a
Well,
Just built a high spec machine P4 3ghz, Sapphire 9700Pro Ulti, sata raid seagate barracuda V 120gbx3 etc in Lian 6085 which has been covered with acoutipack delux all sides bar front and rear - yet to finish.
Found that case temps were fast approcaching 40degC after an hour of surfing higher if 3D gaming.
Found this thread and decided to mod the rear of the case by removing the punched grill on the rear fan mount and cut an additional hole for a rear fan immediately below. Added two YSA Tech silent (21dba) fans using fan covers and found not only the air turbulance severely reduced but the case temp drop by approx 7degC! Also found the Nexus runs quieter or seems too!
Need to decide what to do about the top fan - it appears to make little difference.
Got to say I'm getting a little addicted to silencing this thing -
Nexus3000 power supply
Zalman 7000alcu
Zalman fan controller (5 1/4"bay thing)
Sapphire 9700 ProUlt
3xSATA Raid 120gb disks
Pioneer A03 DVD-RW
MSI 52 CD-RW - noisy thing but only used occasionally!
3xYS tech silent fans (2 rear, 1 top)
2x?? front fans (as supplied with case) runnign at low setting (5v)
Running out of things to mod!!! Perhaps I should just use the thing rather than keep taking it apart!
Paul
Just built a high spec machine P4 3ghz, Sapphire 9700Pro Ulti, sata raid seagate barracuda V 120gbx3 etc in Lian 6085 which has been covered with acoutipack delux all sides bar front and rear - yet to finish.
Found that case temps were fast approcaching 40degC after an hour of surfing higher if 3D gaming.
Found this thread and decided to mod the rear of the case by removing the punched grill on the rear fan mount and cut an additional hole for a rear fan immediately below. Added two YSA Tech silent (21dba) fans using fan covers and found not only the air turbulance severely reduced but the case temp drop by approx 7degC! Also found the Nexus runs quieter or seems too!
Need to decide what to do about the top fan - it appears to make little difference.
Got to say I'm getting a little addicted to silencing this thing -
Nexus3000 power supply
Zalman 7000alcu
Zalman fan controller (5 1/4"bay thing)
Sapphire 9700 ProUlt
3xSATA Raid 120gb disks
Pioneer A03 DVD-RW
MSI 52 CD-RW - noisy thing but only used occasionally!
3xYS tech silent fans (2 rear, 1 top)
2x?? front fans (as supplied with case) runnign at low setting (5v)
Running out of things to mod!!! Perhaps I should just use the thing rather than keep taking it apart!
Paul
Yes, I have it on the lowest setting.. about 5.45V calculated.. but on medium setting (8.27V) the temps only drop 0.6oC.. very small dropelitezoid wrote:I have a Lian-Li PC60, fan noise from the front intake fans is not an issue for me, although I've got the variable fan switch on the lowest setting, 5v I assume?
I've actually done this too - ages ago.. first thing I did when I got the case.. but my 40oC case temps are with this mod already!elitezoid wrote:...However last night I cut out the rear fan grille and replaced it with a wire grille, I also used rubber grommets to act as fan isolators.
I use a Papst 8412NGML as the rear fan.. also rubber grommet mounted. I'm contemplating those EAR vibration isolators as i can still feel a lot of vibration in the rear panel. Might use them for the front fans too.Agreed - temp drops were quite big in my case too - can;t remember what they were.. but it _is_ a very worthwhile mod. Will probably cut out a second rear fan hole eventually.elitezoid wrote:...However what I really noticed was an increase in air flow, obviously this is very subjective, but I can feel more air flow when placing my hand behind the rear grille.
Anyway I'm happy with my newbie style mod, hell it even looks better than standard
I've done this too - my WD800JB is only _just_ audible.. I have to put my ear 10cm from the front fans and then put the computer in "suspend" mode (shuts down HDD but leaves all fans running).. you can just about hear the disk spinning down.elitezoid wrote:Next step is to mod the HD cage, so I can thread some bungee cord and suspend my Cuda?
Be careful how you cut your holes.. I regret suspending my HDD in the very middle because now it'll be harder to add holes/suspension for a second disk.
From what I've seen Cudas can get pretty hot.. good thing the disk is right behind the fans.. but if you want to leave it in the drive cage without suspending it then maybe some benefit will be gained by isolating the drive cage from the case with some rubber or something? Dunno - speculation.
Ciao!
DonP.
I thought like that for a bit too but then I realised that something may fall into the blades.. a pile of books falling over, or something.. and stop the fan.. and since I leave my computer unattended at times I felt it was better to use a grille.Radeonman wrote: Since I don't have small children, and the cat seems to have learned, I don't feel the need for wire grill guards. Besides, those NMB fans can't do much damage anyway. Now if I was running a delta with those sharp blades... that could hurt.
DonP.