Can't decide between P183 and Fortress 2, advice?

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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teiresias
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Can't decide between P183 and Fortress 2, advice?

Post by teiresias » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:38 pm

Hi all. I've lurked here off and on before but never posted for whatever reason. Anyway, just some background: I built my own PCs through college and up through 2007. That year, for some good forsaken reason, I got it into my head to try out a Mac so I bought an iMac. I've missed just plain tinkering and messing around with the innards of my own machine so I'm back to building my own PCs.

I only relay this to indicate that I've been using the relatively quiet iMac for three years. I know I'll never get an SLI-equipped i7 machine as quiet as an iMac (which is essentially a laptop), but the last PC I built I got relatively quiet using a Kingwin KT-424 (without a window) and replacing all the fans (I can't remember with what now), in fact my dad still uses that PC.

Anyway, today I have the following build in mind, for general use, Lightroom 3, Photoshop, and gaming:

Intel i7-870
Gigabyte P55A-UD4P mobo
8GB RAM (2 x 4GB)
Some 80GB-120GB SSD
Corsair AX850
Coolermaster Hyper 212 Plus (probably put a Scythe on that D or E, not sure yet)

For graphics I'm going to see what AMD has in the next few weeks, if it's not interesting the plan is to SLI two Gigabyte GTX460s.

I'm not planning to overclock anything, but I can't rule it out. I doubt I'd do any overclocking with the GPUs though, if I did any it would just be CPU overclocking.

In any case, I simply cannot get a handle on which of the two noted cases I should go with. The P183 saves me some money, but I get the impression from just reading about it that perhaps the FT02 will better handle an SLI setup while the P183 may need to increase noise output to do so. I've read about the P183's top panel fan hum.

On a completely aesthetic level I like the looks of the Fortress 2 better, but the P183 isn't repulsively ugly or anything, and the P183 is a little smaller which is somewhat appealing (though obviously impacts cooling). I'm definitely up for changing out fans in either of the cases, so that's not really an issue.

Does anyone have an opinion on this? I've listed to the SPCR sound files and watched videos and read reviews, etc, but am just having a tough time sorting it out. Thanks for any opinions you all have!

rotor
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Post by rotor » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:02 pm

It sounds like you've pretty much decided already (for the FT02). I own the FT02, and am incredibly happy with it. I love the positive pressure concept, it's really well built, simple and understated, very easy to work with, and super quiet.

quest_for_silence
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Re: Can't decide between P183 and Fortress 2, advice?

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:38 am

teiresias wrote:Does anyone have an opinion on this?

I don't have a P183, but I know the P-182 and currently I have both a P-180 Mini and a SS Raven (the FT brother).

That's I can tell is the Raven is really huge compared to the Antecs, and that I almost always had to swap the fans in "any" case, as Scythe, Nexus and so the like cannot be matched with regard to quietness.

kevral
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Post by kevral » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:21 am

I upgraded from a P182 to a FT 02.

That is, I moved all the internals over because the former was running too hot for my liking. That P182 had 4x Scythe S-Flex fans on temperature control, running between 800 and 1200 RPM depending on CPU temp. When I put in a second 5850 graphics card the temps and noise skyrocketed. After leaving a game, the GPU fans would need roughly 30 secs to even start clocking themselves down, and then another roughly 30 secs before they were back to idle speeds.

After changing over to the FT02 (using all stock fans, with the 180mms temperature controlled and running at 700 RPM most of the time) the GPU fans would drop right back down to idle speed within a matter of seconds after leaving a game. The CPU/Mobo/NB/SB temps all dropped by between 5 and 8 degrees across the board.

Suddenly the noisiest component in my machine is the HX 850 PSU. Being enclosed inside the bottom compartment of the P182 I didn't hear it at all; now I hear the fan spinning (and a slight clicking). I suppose the reason is that the fan is now directly exposed to the outside.

On a whole, really pleased with the FT 02.

Anatorax
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Post by Anatorax » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:43 pm

Whoa, I was planning to respond to this thread for a week now. Finally...

I have the FT02 case myself and I love it. It looks really good, better than on pictures and the cooling performance is extremely good. I have AP181 fans in there and they are silent on 5V (but start getting loud on 7 V), however there is no reason to go past 5 V either :)

What may be tricky here is that FT02 does not offer much sound isolation, as to me. The top is full of holes and PCI slots, so if you have loud graphics that would be probably much noticeable than in Antec, but your cards will also be much much hotter in P183. I don't know much about P183 sound dampening, but I doubt it can offset the faster fans. For Crossfire FT02 is unmatched - there is no other case with 180 mm fan blowing along the cards. If you have quiet hardware inside, it shouldn't be a problem: you can forget about high CPU temps with this case (and CPU cooler) and since you have SSDs, it all really comes down to how quiet your video cards are. Overall, I would choose FT02 (as I did).

danimal
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Post by danimal » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:08 pm

i really like the positive air pressure setup on the ft 02, but for what i do, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages:

1) ft 02 costs ~$75+ more than a p183
2) for serious overclockers, the non-standard rotation of the coolers may slightly lower the overclocking capability of the cpu &/or video card(s)
3) noise coming out the top of the case will be more noticeable than noise coming out of the back
4) can't easily check the dust filters

one of the big reasons to get a p183 is the antec cp-850 psu, which, at $120 shipped at amazon, has an xlnt noise to performance ratio.

the p183 isn't perfect, no case is, but it's very hackable... here is what i've been experimenting with to fix the airflow issues on my overclocked gtx 460 sli setup... my settings for gaming are 4.4ghz/4.35v on the i7-920(hyperthreading off), and 865mhz/1730mhz/2150mhz/1100mv on the 460's.

i was able to shave off over 10 degrees on the video cards, by using two layers of double-back tape to attach a mugen2 fan to the back of the video card slots... it works so well that i can probably eliminate the two internal fans that are blowing on the cards:

Image

rotor
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Post by rotor » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:41 pm

danimal wrote:1) ft 02 costs ~$75+ more than a p183
It looks like you've spent more than $75 just on fans!! =)

rotor
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Post by rotor » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:46 pm

kevral wrote:After changing over to the FT02 (using all stock fans, with the 180mms temperature controlled and running at 700 RPM most of the time) the GPU fans would drop right back down to idle speed within a matter of seconds after leaving a game. The CPU/Mobo/NB/SB temps all dropped by between 5 and 8 degrees across the board.
When you say "temperature controlled", have you got them all running off the CPU PWM fan header? I'd be keen to see what you've done here.

I replaced the top 120mm fan with a Noctua FLX running at the middle speed (~900 RPM I think) which is quieter than the provided 120mm "golf ball" fan. I'm using the Seasonic X-650 power supply, and as far as I can tell, the fan has never kicked in.

rotor
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Post by rotor » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:52 pm

danimal wrote:2) for serious overclockers, the non-standard rotation of the coolers may slightly lower the overclocking capability of the cpu &/or video card(s)
3) noise coming out the top of the case will be more noticeable than noise coming out of the back
4) can't easily check the dust filters
2) Not sure I follow. Heat rises, so there is literally no better configuration than what the FT02 provides.
3) Agreed. The tradeoff is that the case itself is close to silent; it is up to you to focus on the silence of the internal components you install.
4) Agreed. This is my one very minor complaint about the FT02. I am looking to buy some magnetic filters that would stick to the bottom of the case which are removable without taking the side off the case. Having said that, removing the top grille, unscrewing two thumb-screws and removing the side every couple of months isn't the end of the world either! =)

danimal
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Post by danimal » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:09 pm

i bet that i have spent $75 or more on top-notch fans, but now that i know what i'm doing, it could be done for a lot less :-0 these days i'd be looking hard at fitting those $15 thermalright ty-140's into the case, they weren't on the market when i started this project.

heat rising can't overcome airflow, so it's irrelevant... you'd have to feel the hot air coming out of the sli exhaust fan, to appreciate how much work it's doing... it cools better than having the side off of the case, with a 12" table fan turned on full, blowing directly on the cards.

i have three intake fans in the upper compartment, and my air filters clog up as often as every three to four weeks, under really heavy use... the surface area of those big fans in the ft 02 would be a definite advantage there.

120mm x 5 = 600mm of overall fan surface area

teiresias
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Post by teiresias » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:10 pm

All this is great input, thanks guys.

I would be interested in how kevral has his case fans hooked up. I suppose you could just do a Y-cable from one of the case fan headers on the mobo, though I'd want to do the math on the wattage/current needs of the case fans to make sure the header could source enough current to power all three of them off one header.

The noise out of the top is something I was considering. The noise is of less concern to me when under a gaming scenario, as I tend to use headphones when gaming anyway. I'm more worried about noise when I'm doing something that would tend to keep everything at idle temperatures - writing, browsing the web, photo editing - where I'm less likely to be wearing headphones (and quite frankly sometimes welcome a little white noise in those instances anyway :lol: )

I'd also forgo getting the FT02 with the window and get the one without, so that the amount of sound dampening material in the case would be maximized (I'd assume the window may increase the risk of the side of the case vibrating, as well, but I'm no mechanical engineer!).

rotor
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Post by rotor » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:40 pm

danimal wrote:heat rising can't overcome airflow, so it's irrelevant... you'd have to feel the hot air coming out of the sli exhaust fan, to appreciate how much work it's doing... it cools better than having the side off of the case, with a 12" table fan turned on full, blowing directly on the cards.
Definitely don't agree. It's all about the intake air temperature. In a vertical case (like the FT02) the intake air that the GPU fans are pulling in is always going to be fresh and cold, as it hasn't passed anything hot on its way up from the bottom of the case, whereas for example in a horizontal case, the hot air coming off the bottom GPU is going to be sucked into the top GPU.

It would be really easy to test, and would be very interesting to see the results. Run Prime95 and Furmark for half an hour on you machine and check the temperatures. Then rotate the case 90 degrees, without blocking the intakes (which should now be at "the bottom" of the case) and check the temperatures again.

Anatorax
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Post by Anatorax » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:36 am

The noise out of the top is something I was considering. The noise is of less concern to me when under a gaming scenario, as I tend to use headphones when gaming anyway. I'm more worried about noise when I'm doing something that would tend to keep everything at idle temperatures - writing, browsing the web, photo editing - where I'm less likely to be wearing headphones (and quite frankly sometimes welcome a little white noise in those instances anyway )

I'd also forgo getting the FT02 with the window and get the one without, so that the amount of sound dampening material in the case would be maximized (I'd assume the window may increase the risk of the side of the case vibrating, as well, but I'm no mechanical engineer!).
As I said, it all really comes down to your GPU setup. I had an egg cooled 5770 and could hear it a bit (but it was kinda nice sound, better than HDD). The HDD was louder however. The best possible way ever would be to get a good aftermarket cooler for your VGA and use it with some slow-spinning fans. For example, 5870 with Accelero S1 cooler and 1-2 slow Scythe fans would be effectively silent. And cool. There is nothing you can do wrong with such a setup. With SLI it would be harder, since there are fewer aftermarket coolers for them (most of the coolers are for long cards like 470, 480, 5850 etc.).

The sides won't vibrate, they are thick and heavy enough.

kevral
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Post by kevral » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:22 am

rotor wrote:When you say "temperature controlled", have you got them all running off the CPU PWM fan header? I'd be keen to see what you've done here.
My motherboard (Crosshair IV Formula) has a lot of fan headers;
- the CPU fan header that I have controlling both fans of a Noctua NH D14 on the supplied Y-split
- 3 case fan headers that can be controlled according to CPU temperature independently of the CPU fan (but not independently of each other) that I have hooked the 180mms to
- 3 case fan headers that can be tied to each of 3 temperature probes (that I haven't tried) or set to a fixed speed between 40 and 100 %
- 1 PSU fan header that can be set to a fixed speed

Each of the fan headers can handle 12 Watts, or a total of 84 Watts, if I remember correctly. So I'm willing to risk running the 180mms off the motherboard headers.

cordis
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ft02

Post by cordis » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:59 pm

I have an ft02, I like it a lot. It may depend a lot on your environment, though. Will it be under a desk, on the desk, up against a wall? With the FT02, it helps to have some empty space above it to exhaust the heat. I have mine under my desk in an ikea computer table leg thing, so it doesn't have quite outflow on the sides, so it got a little too hot to keep a gtx 295 and gtx 275 in it. I had it working fine with dual gtx 260s, so dual 460s should probably be ok in most placements. If you're only running the gpus while gaming with headphones on, that should be the only time they spin up, and if you only do normal productivity stuff without the headphones, then the FT02 will be plenty quiet and cool for you.

danimal
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Post by danimal » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:56 pm

rotor wrote:whereas for example in a horizontal case, the hot air coming off the bottom GPU is going to be sucked into the top GPU.
all of that air is under pressure from the gpu cooling fan, it's not rising because of the heat... it's being blown out on all sides of the video cards... plus, i have a fan blowing directly into one end of the cards, and a vacuum cleaner on the other end... rather similar to the airflow in the ft 02, but probably even better.

many nvidia cards have a fan vent hole in the pcb, towards the power supply connector end... the pressurized hot air from that vent is being blown into the intake fan of the "top" card, regardless of whether the orientation is horizontal or vertical, the only thing mitigating it is case airflow.

easy enough to prove, one way or the other, by looking at the gpu temp differences between cards, in an sli ft 02 setup... i'm running about 9-11 degrees difference between the cards, with a serious load, under max overclocking conditions, the ft 02 numbers are ???

rotating the case is an interesting idea, but putting the gpu heat pipes at a non-standard angle could lower the cooling potential.

120mm x 5 = 600mm of overall fan surface area
180mm x 3, + 120mm = 660mm of fan area, with 180mm behind the hdd cage

Vetotat
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Post by Vetotat » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:14 am

danimal wrote:easy enough to prove, one way or the other, by looking at the gpu temp differences between cards, in an sli ft 02 setup... i'm running about 9-11 degrees difference between the cards, with a serious load, under max overclocking conditions, the ft 02 numbers are ???
In SPCR's own test of the FT-02/RV-02, a Crossfire X setup with 2 HD4870 cards have a temperature difference between the cards of 4*C. The stock fanspeed is 1600/1800rpm respectively. The P183, on the other hand, has a temp diff at 10*C (like your case) and fan speeds at 2400/3000rpm (seems like the upper card is heated from the lower one).

To me, the FT-02 seems to be the superior case for CrossFire/SLi systems.

rotor
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Post by rotor » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:38 am

Vetotat wrote:
danimal wrote:easy enough to prove, one way or the other, by looking at the gpu temp differences between cards, in an sli ft 02 setup... i'm running about 9-11 degrees difference between the cards, with a serious load, under max overclocking conditions, the ft 02 numbers are ???
In SPCR's own test of the FT-02/RV-02, a Crossfire X setup with 2 HD4870 cards have a temperature difference between the cards of 4*C. The stock fanspeed is 1600/1800rpm respectively. The P183, on the other hand, has a temp diff at 10*C (like your case) and fan speeds at 2400/3000rpm (seems like the upper card is heated from the lower one).

To me, the FT-02 seems to be the superior case for CrossFire/SLi systems.
That was easy. =)

Thanks!

KayDat
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Post by KayDat » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:27 am

Best to quote MikeC in the other thread asking about P183, in comparison to the R3:
MikeC wrote:The difference between these cases seems relatively subtle when you haven't had them side by side. But when you've built systems in both, it's pretty clear. The Fractal gives you lots of the right features for a very modest price. It's kind of flashy in that way. But look a little beneath the skin and you find the bones aren't that sound. The P183 shows its age and original purpose -- video cards were cooler than CPUs when it was designed. But the basics are so much sounder, the sheer weight and quality of the build ensures better sound containment. For the silencer, it's the more rewarding case even if it's a little harder to work in.

The fans in both are only OK and can be much better.

Both cases are flawed. Which flaws are more acceptable depends mostly on whether you want maximum cooling (for hotter video cards) or minimum noise (for a bit cooler video cards).

danimal
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Post by danimal » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:10 pm

Vetotat wrote:In SPCR's own test of the FT-02/RV-02, a Crossfire X setup with 2 HD4870 cards have a temperature difference between the cards of 4*C
apples to oranges... that old data still has some good value for a stock p183, but i didn't post a stock p183.

i posted a case that can be easily and cheaply hacked into something that it wasn't designed for... for instance, what would the card temps have been with a cheap exhaust fan taped to the card slots, like i did? it could easily knock each of 'em down by 10 degrees.

i think that you are right about the rv-02 being a better overall choice for serious crossfire/sli, tho.
rotor wrote: That was easy. =)
only for those who can't tell the difference between apples and oranges =)

rotor
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Post by rotor » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:20 pm

danimal wrote:only for those who can't tell the difference between apples and oranges =)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. =)

Your case has nine or ten fans, plus the ones on the video cards (so 12 - 14 fans total?). It has pieces of cardboard hanging out the back. It has bits of foam and double-sided tape. I have to assume (I hope!) that all of those fans are running at less than 700 RPM, otherwise that is going to be one loud machine, and you wouldn't be posting on this forum.

With all due respect, a) what you've done to that case is not what it was originally designed for and aesthetically is not the best (a matter of opinion, I know), b) there are better stock solutions out there, and c) not everyone has the desire or the ability to hack a case like that. And you say cheaply, but all those fans you've added aren't cheap.

I'm not doubting that your solution works... for you. But you yourself said there was a 10*C difference between the top and bottom video cards. The Fortress FT02, and indeed any vertical case, doesn't have this problem, simple as that.

I think MikeC summed it up well (paraphrasing): "each case has its flaws, pick the case with the flaws that you care least about". Both cases are fantastic, really high quality cases. But what I value about the Fortress FT02 --the vertical design, the 180mm fans, the positive air pressure-- makes it the perfect case... for me.

danimal
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Post by danimal » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:29 pm

rotor wrote: I'm not doubting that your solution works... for you. But you yourself said there was a 10*C difference between the top and bottom video cards. The Fortress FT02, and indeed any vertical case, doesn't have this problem, simple as that.
if the vertical layout is so superior, why did the horizontal antec 1200 have only a 3*C difference between the cards in that spcr test?

it must be that darn apples vs. oranges issue again =)

you'd understand cardboard and hacking and experimenting with extra fans better if you were a performance overclocker... which, btw, mikec is not, his favorite case is the solo?

i wasn't planning on going sli, the ft-02 wasn't on the market back then, and i got the p183 for $124, on sale... pretty much a no-brainer then, but after this thread, and all my hacking, i'd really like to experiment with sli in an ft-02.

Vetotat
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Post by Vetotat » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:57 am

danimal wrote:if the vertical layout is so superior, why did the horizontal antec 1200 have only a 3*C difference between the cards in that spcr test?
The cards in the Antec 1200 case has higher temps on both cards, and higher fan speeds. The whole system is also 4 dBA louder.

FT02 - Antec 1200: 1-0

Anatorax
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Post by Anatorax » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:08 am

Just for the note: Antec 1200 with all those fans and meshes will clog up with dust within few months. I had a similar case and had to clean CPU and GPU heatsinks with compressed air (and interior too) once every couple of months. In this aspect, FT02 is flawless.

danimal
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Post by danimal » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:53 pm

Vetotat wrote: The cards in the Antec 1200 case has higher temps on both cards, and higher fan speeds. The whole system is also 4 dBA louder.
perhaps you'll recall the claim that i made earlier: "heat rising can't overcome airflow, so it's irrelevant"... which we can now all agree was a correct statement, thanks to you bringing up the spcr test =)

for those of you new to sli... one video card will always run hotter than the other, because it handles the overhead.

the ft-02 costs $260 shipped at newegg right now, $100 more than the 1200, so it had better be a better case! what would happen to the gpu temps in the 1200, if all of the fans were blowing inwards?

teiresias
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Post by teiresias » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:20 am

Well guys, went ahead and bought the FT-02 last week. I got most of the components for my build in last week as well, but unfortunately came down with a major sore throat, which turned out to be strep, so I haven't exactly felt like dealing with doing the actual build yet (plus I haven't gotten a monitor so it will have to hooked up to my HDTV to start - anyone have a way to get a Dell U2711 for $750? :lol: ).

Anyway, LOVE the case, feels built like a tank. LOOOOVE the 180mm fans on the bottom, though I didn't get one that came with the AP181 fans like some have. I'll see how it goes with the older fans and only upgrade if I feel it necessary to do so. I also do like how everything comes out of the top. I didn't think about it until I actually looked at it, but I'm about to work with a local woodworking guy to design and build a standing desk workstation, and I think this will work well because since the exhaust is mainly out of the top I can basically make a "hole" to just lower the unit in that sits off to the side and completely hide the front of the case (though it's so pretty I'm not sure I'd even want to do that), obviously need holes for the bottom intakes though.

We'll see how the actual build goes. Lack of a removable motherboard tray doesn't really bother me, since I've only owned one case in my life that had one, so doing builds in cases without it isn't a big deal to me.

Anatorax
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Re: Can't decide between P183 and Fortress 2, advice?

Post by Anatorax » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:00 am

Great! Welcome to the FT02 owners club!

Hayate19XX
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Re: Can't decide between P183 and Fortress 2, advice?

Post by Hayate19XX » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:03 am

Thinking switching from an P183 to an FT02 myself, just sad that here Europe you can't get any version of the silver with window :/

Modo
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Re: Can't decide between P183 and Fortress 2, advice?

Post by Modo » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:20 am

Hayate19XX wrote:Thinking switching from an P183 to an FT02 myself, just sad that here Europe you can't get any version of the silver with window :/
True that. Funny enough, I found an Polish online shop carrying the Black+Red+Window limited edition. ;)

Hayate19XX
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Re: Can't decide between P183 and Fortress 2, advice?

Post by Hayate19XX » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:40 am

Quite tired of that red color wish they began using blue (or other colors) instead :cry:

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