Lone Industries Mini-ITX prototype

[xan_user]

-Micro review-

I put a p8h77-i with a sandy i3 w/ HD3000 in the delorean, and used a pico with a small, cheap 6A brick.
I wanted to run this with just one fan, so I had to come up with a shroud/duct to force air through in the proper direction.
this is what a came up for a ghetto mock up test, before i make a permanent solution..



(yes that is a coolermaster gemini 2 m4, that was panned by SPCR in a review. - i found that if i shimmed the fan with some rubber between the heatsink surface, it tightened the retention clips it eliminated any vibrations between the heatsink and fan)

with the cover on and running prime 95 got it up to 66* with fan at quiet 1000 rpm, and is essentially silent at 600rpm when at idle. it drew about 72 watts peak, 20 watts idle and .9 watts in standby.

I did need to increase the airspace under the case quite a bit by putting it on 3/4" electiral tape rolls as spacers. ( the isolate feet i had were not tall enough, so i have to order something bigger.)

if i ever put a GPU in it I will need to cut/drill some vents in the lid over the CPU to keep it cool.

its a very well built case.
-my main gripe is the fact that the bottom intake area is smaller than the exhaust and that the feet are much too small. I really wish the bottom grill area was as big as possible. I would love to see the bottom vent look just like the top, with mounting provisions for 2 80mm fans there as an option..this would also allow for the option of a GPU with a larger heatsink, or additional space for drive(s).

before i make a permanent shroud/duct I want to try and get the power brick in there as well and see how hot and loud it might get.

Thanks lonestar, really nice job!

PS, how many of these cases did you make so far?

[laststop]

This is really an impressive job done for a quiet HTPC case. I would say since you are limited to a low profile radeon 7750 as the fastest possible gpu you can put in there I would just totally skip the dedicated GPU option. Gaming on a 7750 is just not enough for a true gamer. Silent and high quality gaming and slim design does not exist currently. You can only choose 2. You can have a slim + high quality gaming design that isn't silent, you can have a silent + slim design that is not very good at high quality gaming or you can have silent + high quality gaming that isn't a slim design. What I think would be extremely nice in this case is if you can get a motherboard with one of the intel cpu's with the iris pro 5200 gpu with the embedded 128MB video ram right on chip. I know you would have to buy one of those intel mobo's with the chip already soldered on. But with that integrated GPU you wouldn't be missing the dedicated GPU. It will do everything you want from an HTPC except high quality gaming (but neither will the 7750). Will bring the power down and the heat down allowing even slower fans if you just go with one of the pre soldered iris pro 5200 solutions. Can still have quick encoding and decoding with intel quick sync. Which is even quicker and better on the 5200.

I also recommend a BDXL compatible blu ray burner on the HTPC. Blu ray discs have been coming further and further down in price and i can't say when but in some years blank bd discs will be like blank dvd discs and really huge 128GB bdxl discs will be like dvd dual layer discs (both in price i mean). When you start recording a ton of stuff off the tv in 1080p it will be very handy to be able to store 128GB of video per disc. That's pretty insane 8 discs per 1TB. This will really come into play for 4k video. I'm already struggling to store blu ray images on hard discs. It's going to get very expensive HDD wise to start storing all the 4k video. BDXL discs can technically be scaled to 2TB per disc though I'm not sure we will see it but I think we will eventually see 1TB per BDXL disc.

It will not be economical to store massive archives of 4k video on HDD. But by that time the BD discs will be so cheap it will be MUCH MUCH more economical to store your library of video on large 512GB BDXL discs or something like that.

My dad got a 25GB 16x BD-R (50GB 14x BD-R DL) (100GB 12x BDXL-R TL) (128GB 8x BDXL-R QL)write speed 16x DVD-R (16x DVD-R DL) write speed 48x CD-r write Speed drive for 90 dollars from microcenter which has BDXL support built in. That is really not a bad price for the fastest BD-r burner you can get. The cheaper ones are all 12x and 14x and dont have BDXL support and they aren't even that much cheaper. And at 16x you are writing at 72MB/sec. That means 5 minutes 54 seconds to record a full 25GB (around 6 minutes 30 seconds total from disc starting to tray popping out for a totally full 25GB BD-R. That's not too bad at all.

I think you should drop support for the pci-e card completely and let the air flow more unrestricted throughout the case and remove that source of heat. Unless you plan on using it for a high quality low profile audio card for 7.1 surround. While integrated audio has come a long way when you switch to a discrete card the audio quality takes a noticeable jump. You can hear the increased clarity and increased power. When I switched my amd phenomII x6 1100t from the built in motherboards audio to an auzentech x meridian i was able to get cleaner louder output from a volume setting 3 notches lower than the internal audio. The Asus DX 7.1 is a good low profile sound card that comes to mind.

[jamese]

@xan_user, Thanks! Very interesting, and inventive duct work. When I first started working on a case design a couple years ago, I originally wanted a single fan design. It sort of evolved though. I know you're only wanting a single fan system, but if you can, you should give a good undervolted 80mm fan a try. Thank you also for the feedback, there's some good ideas there. I think we're thinking along the same lines, so you may actually see some of these ideas incorporated into a new design at some point in the future.

[Mankey]

I would say since you are limited to a low profile radeon 7750 as the fastest possible gpu you can put in there I would just totally skip the dedicated GPU option. Gaming on a 7750 is just not enough for a true gamer. Silent and high quality gaming and slim design does not exist currently. You can only choose 2. You can have a slim + high quality gaming design that isn't silent, you can have a silent + slim design that is not very good at high quality gaming or you can have silent + high quality gaming that isn't a slim design.

You definitely have a point, but I feel that you're being a bit fatalistic in your declaration that this cannot work for a gaming PC. Many games that are hugely popular do not require a ton of horsepower, and I know from experience that the 7750 can be more than adequate (as it is light years past integrated).

Many of the most popular PC games run just fine on a 7750:
Counter Strike GO
Mass Effect 3
Bioshock
Civilization
Walking Dead
Devil May Cry
WoW
Maple Story
...

Not all "gamers" need to be running Crysis at max resolutions - many have fun playing more simple games that need more oomph than integrated video can provide, but less than a 680sli setup.

[xan_user]

@xan_user, Thanks! Very interesting, and inventive duct work. When I first started working on a case design a couple years ago, I originally wanted a single fan design. It sort of evolved though. I know you're only wanting a single fan system, but if you can, you should give a good undervolted 80mm fan a try. Thank you also for the feedback, there's some good ideas there. I think we're thinking along the same lines, so you may actually see some of these ideas incorporated into a new design at some point in the future.

i might try and take the large fan off the heatsink (keeping the duct work) and use two undervolted 80's, which would open up more room between the heatsink and case lid for more intake breathing room. - I just wanted to see first if the coolermaster was as bad as spcr said it was. for the $22 i spent on the m4, im really pleased with its performance.

build is shaping up nicely, put a wifi card in it and attached a 7dbi antenna below power button. I tried putting the brick inside, but it got too hot for my liking, so i figure i will stick it on the back of the case between the wifi antenna and the power input socket. also added a hdd activity led..and might add a power led too. its really hard to tell when its on!

another thought for v 2.0;
it would be awesome if the top and bottom vents were identical, so the case could be run with pcie slot on top or bottom. for cosmetic reasons youd have to figure out how to make the screw on plate, that is now the bottom panel, instead be the rear panel. eliminating the screws ect. on the bottom would also make it more visually appealing to run this case on its side, like a htpc.

at those here (and in the other thread) saying theres no point in a half height pci slot, dont forget there are some good tv tunner/dvr cards out there that would fit this case well. besides how powerful of a gaming card do you think you can run with a pico?

[jamese]

build is shaping up nicely, put a wifi card in it and attached a 7dbi antenna below power button. I tried putting the brick inside, but it got too hot for my liking, so i figure i will stick it on the back of the case between the wifi antenna and the power input socket. also added a hdd activity led..and might add a power led too. its really hard to tell when its on!

Need some pics!

How about making a mount for the brick that attaches to the underside/back of your desk?

another thought for v 2.0;
it would be awesome if the top and bottom vents were identical, so the case could be run with pcie slot on top or bottom. for cosmetic reasons youd have to figure out how to make the screw on plate, that is now the bottom panel, instead be the rear panel. eliminating the screws ect. on the bottom would also make it more visually appealing to run this case on its side, like a htpc.

Thanks for the feedback. I would like to make it even more suitable for laying horizontally. It's pretty difficult with the current design though. Maybe if I stare at it long enough I'll figure something out.

[grant2]

Awesome work jamese. Let me know if I can visit and buy you a soda when I'm back in town. I might even be in the market to buy 1 or 2 when I'm there.

How about making a mount for the brick that attaches to the underside/back of your desk?

I wonder if there's a way to make a mount to attach it to the outside of the case? just a thought.

I would like to make it even more suitable for laying horizontally.

Tricky business- i suspect the right solution is to create sliding panels that screw in only on the back, like in conventional cases.

----
2 more thoughts:

A) I look forward to seeing what you come up with the CPU vent. You should definitely keep mounting holes as part of the design- it will allow people to put their preferred big fan over any generic heatsink instead of some proprietary HS/Fan combination.

B) I think the ideal world you would end up with a modular case. You can ship people 6 different sides a-la-carte:

- People can order a "left" or "right" backplates to fit different motherboards
- CPU side panel w/ no vent, 120mm vent, or 140mm vent.
- select which of the top, bottom, or mobo-side panels will have rubber feet
- top & bottom panels w/ either: no vent, GPU vent, single 80mm fan vent, or dual 80mm fan vent.
- Blank face, or face with knockouts for power/reset/led/usb etc.

Maybe that's an impossible dream. But consider the seeds of innovation planted in your fertile mind

[jamese]

Awesome work jamese. Let me know if I can visit and buy you a soda when I'm back in town. I might even be in the market to buy 1 or 2 when I'm there.

Thank you, and you're more than welcome to drop by my work anytime.

How about making a mount for the brick that attaches to the underside/back of your desk?

I wonder if there's a way to make a mount to attach it to the outside of the case? just a thought.

I would like to make it even more suitable for laying horizontally.

Tricky business- i suspect the right solution is to create sliding panels that screw in only on the back, like in conventional cases.

----
2 more thoughts:

A) I look forward to seeing what you come up with the CPU vent. You should definitely keep mounting holes as part of the design- it will allow people to put their preferred big fan over any generic heatsink instead of some proprietary HS/Fan combination.

B) I think the ideal world you would end up with a modular case. You can ship people 6 different sides a-la-carte:

- People can order a "left" or "right" backplates to fit different motherboards
- CPU side panel w/ no vent, 120mm vent, or 140mm vent.
- select which of the top, bottom, or mobo-side panels will have rubber feet
- top & bottom panels w/ either: no vent, GPU vent, single 80mm fan vent, or dual 80mm fan vent.
- Blank face, or face with knockouts for power/reset/led/usb etc.

Maybe that's an impossible dream. But consider the seeds of innovation planted in your fertile mind

Thanks for the thoughts. I haven't had a lot of time to do much designing lately. I'm trying to catch up on my real work at the moment! Below is a quick side panel I tried for 120 mm fans.

I think it'd be great to be able to do all the little custom things you mention. It's certainly possible to some degree, with enough demand/interest. It doesn't make much sense for me to make anything unless I've got at least 10+ people interested.

[jamese]

I decided to build a white case using some parts I had kicking around. This also shows what it looks like with a PicoPSU at the front. I also decided to try reversing the bracket, so it sort of hides the silver SSD. Yet again, I can't seem to find a fourth matching rubber fan mount!

A pretty straightforward build. It'd be nice to use the more flexible SATA cables, and also a little bit shorter would help. It does take a little patience and time to get the cable management just right.

[Mankey]

Looks good - Would you have happened to purchase that cooler recently? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I bet if you had the two top fans blow downwards at it, you wouldn't even need that 120mm fan mounted.

[jamese]

Looks good - Would you have happened to purchase that cooler recently? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I bet if you had the two top fans blow downwards at it, you wouldn't even need that 120mm fan mounted.

I've actually had it for awhile now. It's a Big Shuriken 2, and does block the expansion slot. Off the top of my head, some alternatives are the Thermalright AXP-100, and Prolimatech Samuel 17. If you really want one, I'll sell you mine.

You're probably right about not needing the 120 mm fan with the fans blowing inward. If not, the 120 mm fan usually spins so slow and quiet, that it's not really noticeable.

[xan_user]

Looks good - Would you have happened to purchase that cooler recently? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

http://www.pugetsystems.com/store/item. ... d8cd9&que=

I bet if you had the two top fans blow downwards at it, you wouldn't even need that 120mm fan mounted.

thats why i want room for two fans at the bottom.... =D

[porkchop]

if you don't mind having 4 funny nubs at the top you can always flip the case over.
as long as you're not using a card then it should work okay, proximity to the fans depends on your mb and heatsink so it could end up better or worse (in any case it's tiny and there's only one exit for the air so the difference should be small).

is that picopsu touching your ram?

it looks like a picopsu-80, what have you managed to run off of it?

[Mankey]

Do we know the maximum allowable heatsink height (without fan)?

[jamese]

if you don't mind having 4 funny nubs at the top you can always flip the case over.
as long as you're not using a card then it should work okay, proximity to the fans depends on your mb and heatsink so it could end up better or worse (in any case it's tiny and there's only one exit for the air so the difference should be small).

is that picopsu touching your ram?

it looks like a picopsu-80, what have you managed to run off of it?

There's four countersunk screws that show on the bottom, which aren't bad, but the flanges which the bottom mounts to probably wouldn't look too good up top.

There's a tiny bit of clearance between the ram and picopsu. It is a PicoPSU-80, but with a 60W power brick. I run this setup (below) in my black case.

Intel Core i3 3225
Gigabyte H77N-WIFI
1x Corsair SSD
Noctua NH-9Li
1x 80mm fan

[xan_user]

Some more pics of the progress. im pretty happy with it now.

I used two nuts/screws to mount the hdd holder to the case then mounted my ssd on the top of the bracket, so i could hide my power and sata cable underneath. took out the CPU fan and now just using two 80mm's.

Plenty of room for wires, but mobo was not compatible with cooler's back plate, so just used washers and nuts instead. its not a heavy heat sink so im not concerned.


before shroud install. wires all tidied up. still need to move wifi card.


finished, for now...



all the intake air comes up from the bottom and down through the CPU heat sink before being exhausted out the top.
idles at 40-45 with fans at 750rpm. temps top out at 66-67 when running prime,with the fans getting up to about 1650., which is fine for my noise floor.
Still have to find the right feet for it. ( and really do wish the vents on the bottom went all the from front to rear. I believe that would allow me to run the fans much slower, and still keep temps under 70.)

[jamese]

Do we know the maximum allowable heatsink height (without fan)?

Should be max 71 mm to inside of side panel. It's about 79 mm from the top of the motherboard to the inside of the side panel.

[porkchop]

thanks for the info jamese.
i ask because my pisopsu-80 gives me grief if i start pulling ~70w from the wall on my system, could be the pico or the brick though.

xan_user, can't you rotate the heat sink 90 degrees so the fins face the right direction?
the difference should be significant, even if you have to do some modding i think it'll be worth it.

[jamese]

@xan_user - I'm impressed! I will seriously consider increasing the bottom vent size.

[xan_user]

thanks for the info jamese.
i ask because my pisopsu-80 gives me grief if i start pulling ~70w from the wall on my system, could be the pico or the brick though.

xan_user, can't you rotate the heat sink 90 degrees so the fins face the right direction?
the difference should be significant, even if you have to do some modding i think it'll be worth it.

i tried that, but if rotated it hits the ram. its probably not that big of a deal anyway, as the fins arnt that thick.

ps. i am using a pico 120 watt with a cheapo 72watt (6A) brick i had laying around, and have not had issues...yet.

@xan_user - I'm impressed! I will seriously consider increasing the bottom vent size.

you did the hard part, i just put the parts together!
-cant wait to see v 2.0-

[jamese]

Decided to try something similar to xan_user (but without the ducting), and run my Big Shuriken 2 without a fan, and 2x 80 mm case fans. I have the second 80 mm fan connected to the CPU fan mobo header. These fans are not undervolted, so they are audible.

Interestingly, both PWM fans are the same, but the one on the CPU fan header started around 700 RPM, while the one connected to the case fan header started at around 1600 RPM. Come on ASUS, why do you torture me!

Idle/multitasking:
Temp: 32*C
Fan 0: 1085 RPM
Fan 1: 1695 RPM

Prime95:
Temp: 47*C
Fan 0: 1374 RPM
Fan 1: 1708 RPM

It'd be kinda cool if there was a cooler that was even more suitable for fanless cooling in this case (think giant heat sink!).

[Mankey]

Decided to try something similar to xan_user (but without the ducting), and run my Big Shuriken 2 without a fan, and 2x 80 mm case fans.

Did you have the fans blowing in or out?

[jamese]

Did you have the fans blowing in or out?

They're blowing out. I totally forgot to try having them blow in!

[Mankey]

Did you have the fans blowing in or out?

They're blowing out. I totally forgot to try having them blow in!

Yah, in an application like that, blowing in will work way better. Your load temps aren't that bad though. Could probably run the fans even slower.

[jamese]

They're blowing out. I totally forgot to try having them blow in!

Yah, in an application like that, blowing in will work way better. Your load temps aren't that bad though. Could probably run the fans even slower.

I didn't quite get as good as results with them blowing in. I'll have to switch back, and test again.

(Positive pressure - blowing in):

Idle
Temp: 33*C
Fan 0: 1184 RPM
Fan 1: 1662 RPM

Prime95
Temp: 53*C
Fan 0: 1674 RPM
Fan 1: 1869 RPM

EDIT: I did re-test negative pressure setup (blowing out), and confirmed my numbers in the previous post. I'm even seeing 29-30*C idle temps at the moment with a negative pressure setup. Ambient temp is about 21*C.

[Mankey]

I didn't quite get as good as results with them blowing in. I'll have to switch back, and test again.

Interesting! Every time I've gone positive pressure with a heatsink in that close proximity, the results have been much better. I'm wondering if the bottom vent being smaller than the top, as well as being located so close to the tabletop, is restricting airflow somewhat.

[jamese]

I didn't quite get as good as results with them blowing in. I'll have to switch back, and test again.

Interesting! Every time I've gone positive pressure with a heatsink in that close proximity, the results have been much better. I'm wondering if the bottom vent being smaller than the top, as well as being located so close to the tabletop, is restricting airflow somewhat.

I don't really have any experience with positive pressure cooling, but I was also expecting different results for the same reason you mentioned. After watching the higher numbers I did prop up the case, but didn't see any significant change.

Need a transparent side panel, and a smoke machine to visualize what's going on!

[Mankey]

Got a budget Haswell build going into mine. I kept vacillating back and forth between something more high powered, but I decided against it, as the pico psu doesn't provide enough power for a quad.

Here's a link to my in-progress album.

http://imgur.com/a/91XcD

I'll post up again once I have it up and running. Let me know if anyone has any questions. I'd love to answer em!

[jamese]

Got a budget Haswell build going into mine. I kept vacillating back and forth between something more high powered, but I decided against it, as the pico psu doesn't provide enough power for a quad.

Here's a link to my in-progress album.

http://imgur.com/a/91XcD

I'll post up again once I have it up and running. Let me know if anyone has any questions. I'd love to answer em!

I love the yellow/gold. I bet it looks even better in person. The sleeving looks really good also. Have you considered running any of it behind the motherboard?

[Mankey]

The sleeving looks really good also. Have you considered running any of it behind the motherboard?

Thanks! The pico input wires are really stiff, so I didn't want to run them behind the mobo and put a ton of stress on the termination points, that's why I went with a gentle bend up front, and approached the rear plug at a straight angle.

The pico 4 pin output would run dangerously close to the fan at the exit point if I routed under the motherboard.

The power button definitely could have gone under, I just figured that since the other wires were already on top, I might as well

I'll try and tackle the sata stuff today. I need to fabricate a custom power plug for the 2 drives I'm putting in and then splice into the pico power harness. I also have some nice thin round sata cables coming in that should bend nicely.