Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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quad
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Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by quad » Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:25 pm

Hi,

I'm looking to build a new machine, based around the new Zen 3 CPUs, as it looks like the 5600x can deliver 6 cores at just 65W. This should allow me ample headroom for one of the fanless CPU coolers as tested by the fullysilentpcs.com chap. I've got a Corsair RM 750x PSU waiting to go in, which allegedly only kicks it's fan in when the power draw is around 300W. I still want to game however, and will tolerate fan noise from a GPU, as the game should distract from the noise. The intent is no fans when browsing, encoding, producing music etc, as I only want the PSU fan, and perhaps one occasional fan that assists convection upwards.

In addition, I live in the past, and have a room full of CDs and DVDs so the case must have an optical slot. A lot of cases built for radiators block that slot, and also have air flow restrictions on the PSU shroud, limiting convection from a semi passive PSU. So an open/mesh top looks to be good.

I can also tolerate the chaos noise of spinning HDDs, of which I've 4 (3 x 3.5in) in my current box to move over. Budget of around 130 GBP.

Recap:
* airflow through top, and bottom
* no solid PSU shroud, need vents or shroud absent
* ODD at least 1
* Good number of 3.5in
* Premium, but not RGB

So far I've found:
* Be Quiet Silent Base 600 - nice, misses out on features from the newer siblings
* Corsair Carbide 100R - looks ok, but reviews state it's not premium.
* Thermaltake P3 - fully open, so no need for the fan assist, but will hear the GPU/drives. Needs someone to 3d print an Optical drive cage

Which are the others to consider wise silent folks?

I know there's an argument to go with a regular setup and quiet fans, but I'm jealous of the fanless Surface Pro 6 that my wife has, and all I can hear is the NAS on the desk. I'm coming from an Antec P182 (2010 era) case with Noctua/Scythe fans.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:23 pm

Hello,

I would leave the idea of completely open case as P3 is. You will hate all of the little noises from pc parts, you will hate the dust. To me it's the vertical test bench, not a case. Silent Base 600 and this Corsiar may not satisfy you in terms of being quiet - terrible ratios of size and weight, poor thermals (especially Carbrigde). Quiet computer is about cool and quiet components, but if we talk about case's job - you want its construction as heavy, thick and solid as possible without any not needed holes (Silent Base top vents). Better leave tha idea of open top of the case - that's a bomb to noise of computer. Sound-proofing materials also work, but from my experience they're less important. And no glass, if it's sound-proofed case.

The best cases which tick all of your boxes are Fractal Design Define ones. More premium than your pics, but they are worth it - I find them overally the best silent cases you can buy. I personally have Define 7, but I find the best deal Define R5 (in Poland it's ~40% cheaper than 7). It's five years old flaghip, but I would call it first perfect Define, which makes paying extra for newer ones not easy to justify. We can talk about the differences, if you interested.

As also well priced, decent alternatives I see Antec P101 Silent and Nanoxia Deep Silence 8 (Pro). For example Antec has case fan stop option, Nanoxia 8 Pro is a little lower quality (kinda cutting corners where you rather won't feel it), the same performance Define 7, so if you find it noticeably cheaper, you can think about it. All of the cases come from the most experienced brands in quiet case market.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, that P101 doesn't have perforated or removable shroud, but in case of that I checked RMx's manual and there's no word about mounting it with fan on the top. Better email Corsair about it, before you dicrease your case choice, only because you think it would work better with fan on the top. Add to this, that fan then will cool with hotter air from the inside of the case and be left unfiltered.

If we talk about coolers - go Scythe Ninja 5. Passive cooler with two, slow fans, which you don't have to use. I have it on my stock 9700K and use it with fans, because I can't hear it at idle, I can't hear it during gaming. And it cools my rather hot CPU to 50-60C during most games, 60-70 during most CPU intensive like Cyberpunk.

quad
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by quad » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:02 am

Hey Japanese Capacitor, thanks for your thoughts. You've made me firm up my thoughts on what I need.

I can see where you're coming from regarding a test bench of the P3. However, I don't mind chaotic noises from an open computer. I've had the old Antec P182 open and flat more times than I can recall wondering what won't boot, and the tiny clicks don't bother me that much. The P3 is an obvious choice for a completely passive/sold state build, but wouldn't have any suppression when the GPU or mechanical HDDs are going, so I'll put this idea away, assuming the others have enough ventilation.

I looked at the suggestions - the Antec P101 looks lovely, so much goodness for storage with monster weight. The Nanoxia also look great for suppression. Both fall down when running passive - there's no easy exit for convected warm air. Vents on the top look like a must. I realise I didn't make it clear in my first post - I'm trying to get away with not having any case fans at all. Traditional quiet cases don't have this in mind as you say, and assume fans will be on and slow. Airflow cases do the opposite. My needs fall slightly into both camps. I'll come onto your Define 7 suggestion.

For the PSU, the RMx manual doesn't state orientation, but I was also considering the fanless Seasonic PRIME, which does state that vents need to be upwards. I didn't check other brands and have assumed the thermodynamics will be the same. If the Corsair has the vent pointing down, hot air will collect in the PSU and the fan will kick in earlier relative to the upright position.

I looked a bit further into which cases are being used by the fanless builders (QuietPC, fullysilentpcs, silentpc) and mesh cases are popular for fully passive, and few have optical drive slots.

So I've kicked out some cases with no optical drive slot - Be Quiet Silent Base 802, Pure base 500, Phanteks 500a, Define Compact 7, most Mesh cases. Then a bunch fall out as they don't have a top vent for convection - CM Silencio, other Silent/Dark Bases, Nanoxia, 8, Antec P101. As you say the Corsair Carbide was reviewed as running too hot, even for quiet cases.

To have a combination of optical drive, top vent & 5+ disks, this leaves:

Fractal Define 7 (and XL variant)
Fractal Define R6
Fractal Core 2500
BQ Pure Base 600

So your suggestion is in the running. Of these, the Pure Base is OK for my (current) drives, but has an issue with floor ventilation - only half of the base is vented. Once the PSU is in place, there's limited room for air to enter and the front panel is solid. Fractal's Core 2500 is also a simpler/budget design but does well on ventilation and noise. Not so premium, and I'd be close to the drive limit.

Which leaves the Define 7 and R6, both of which have good suppression and options to open/close the vent and door to enable a passive and a gaming mode. With one of those I'd experiment with fan off/ or vertical mounts in gaming. Your experience with the Define shows nice temps when under load when running fans slow. Have you (or anyone else) done a test with the case fans off, top and front open and run with just the CPU cooler? I imagine it may get hot on a high TDP 9700k chip, and I'd love to see the results.

Define 7 is out of stock in most places in the UK at the moment, but the R6 is on offer (backorder) on Amazon for a good discount. I'm tempted.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:16 am

Tell me, if going passive with CPU cooler, PSU and maybe even case is you thinking it's gonna be quietest way or thing you just want to try, because maybe never've had - it's some kind of achievement?

These passive CPU coolers + PSUs are to me most overrated in terms of preventing problems with noise of computer. Let's start with this, that my fully actively cooled computer is silent as off during idle/webbrowsing. And that silent as off is two fans of Ninja 5 running ~500 rpm, 3x140 case fans ~300 rpm, 3x gpu fans ~1000 rpm and PSU unknown rpm. You can google XFX TS 650W reviews and see how it cools, but it's generally not even quiet PSU. But I've never heard it - during idle, during load. I'm able just to notice CPU cooler's sound, when it crosses 650 rpm. In most games (I mean modern and demanding) it keeps my CPU between 50-60C with 500-600 rpm. There're also rare hardcore for CPU ones like Cyberpunk: 60-70C with 600-700 rpm.

About the cases, there's also one thing to consider. Open, mesh case will be louder than closed and silenced one during idle/webrowsing, when I find computer noise more problematic. Calculate this, that open mesh case doesn't block sounds and doesn't dampen it. I find dampened sound of computer so much more pleaseant to the ear than typical not dampened sound of computer. With mesh cases you will have also hell of dust everywhere, so prepere yourself for more maintenance. It's worth to mention, that I tested my case during games with opening the door, removing somehow restricting front filter and using perforated top. I just didn't lower the temps of CPU and GPU, but added so much noise. That's why I find mesh way letting to slow the fans something not always working - I suspect mostly not working, rather working with some harcore warm overclocked hardware. Shitty case fans perform better with mesh front, because they're not strong enough to pull the air thru side vents. Sometimes these vents are poorely executed and dicrease performance of even great fans (Silent Base 601/801). Fractal has great fans, Fractal has great vents (I'm sure about in case of Define 7).

Core 2500: Is this case still available? Old Fractal Silent Series fans had tendency to rattle - maybe their older bearing, maybe motor or some other internal component. I wouldn't go budget cases, because of things I explained earlier. Generally simralry priced cases suck in terms of cooling potential, are too light to deal with the noise, rather bad in terms of dust filtration (cheap not really working pieces of metal mesh instead of true filters). And these are the main functions of the case. If you want to go budget, go cheapest ones I find just satysfying: Pure Base 500 and Define C. C is better, but more pricey. But add to this paying more for USB DVD drive and having place only for two HDDs. Generally if I were you, I would convert into small and inaudible SSDs (reliable Crucial MX500 is one of the good options).

Pure Base 600 - I find full black version looking awesome in good oldschool way, but oven. It will handle some lower power congurations. Worth checking is poorely placed front fan, which stands in the line with side vents. There's rather general rule, that something like this dicreases fan performance and cause turbulating sound, but maybe this piece of german engineering is some exception. Should be possible to remount the fan to the opposite side of rail and see, if it make a difference.

Not interested in Define R5? Check all of the reviews of Define 7. R6 and 7 are kinda the same cases (compare specification and manuals on Fractal's site) and are sometimes compared on the test graphs. If I remember well, R6 cools CPU better, but worse GPU. Mysterious thing, because the same fans, but I suspect different default fan positioning (height) - it messes with temps of these components and is worth experimenting. R6 is also sold in two versions - with USB C on the front and rather cheaper one without. Many motherboards have C on the external back panel, so maybe not a thing, if not more than one needed. You can also buy USBC front panel directly from Fractal. The same as hard drive cages.

CA_Steve
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by CA_Steve » Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:40 am

Just curious - what gpu are you looking at?

quad
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by quad » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:28 pm

@CA_Steve
Just curious - what gpu are you looking at?
Good question - I've a RX570 at the moment which will be re-used for a while, thanks to 2021 GPU shortages. I'd love to go to the scale of RTX 3070 or so, I would have budgeted ~400 GBP but no way in current market. My 750w PSU should handle it. I'm aware any irregular fan setup will create masses of turbulence, so we'll see if the build would need reconfiguring. I'm assuming any case I get now will be big enough for long cards (the candidates are deep), though I've not checked. Target is maybe get a high refresh rate ultrawide display at some point.

@Japanese Capacitor
thing you just want to try, because maybe never've had - it's some kind of achievement?
Yeah, it's an amateur engineering challenge that I've been wanting to try. I'm willing to try passive, and if it's too much effort, go back to regular 'quiet'. My build back in 2009 or so was based around the good quiet parts. I thought it would be the last PC I'd build, as mobile tech improves, and in 2020 I'd have 20Tb in a tablet. Maybe in another decade.....

In the end the noise from the Corsair HX PSU, 2x Noctuas (one on the CPU heasink, one on the rear) and a Scythe top fan (some with voltage reducers) was a nice sound, but still noticeable. I bought some acoustifoam but never installed it. Then of course the rest of the decade had improvements in phones/tablets and low power draw. Surely desktops were now following? Nope, 100+ Watts 4 core was normal - desktop improvements have been smaller. I bought a 2018 laptop, based on reviews that stating 'fan noise inaudible unless pushing it'. Got disappointed, as it's only quiet when doing cpu <10%. I have mild tinnitus so some high frequency continuous noises sound like the inside of my head. Got to avoid those, but random chaotic noises are ok. So the idea is to minimise noise generation at source. Of course adding a GPU will ruin any 'pure passive' ideas, but the experiment will be fun.

So I've had absolute silent computing from phones / tablets / raspberry pi, and finally my wife's fanless Surface Pro 6 with i5 (i7 has fan). No sound, just heat. And after seeing 65W Ryzen parts, I'm trying the mashup of desktop from lower power draw but being able to plug in anything. If that Surface Pro had a dock to add PCI-E, SATAs etc, I'd get that!

I've not built anything from new since 2009, haven't even checked SPCR much or kept up to date on relative quietness of builds. But every new fan noise I heard (work laptop etc) got me to spot all the fanless NUCs and silent PC builders, and that's triggered the interest. Cases, fans may have got better, quieter, easier to mount. I take your points about mesh, and can believe you about the lack of dampening. I'm not surprised that weaker fans are added to those builds.

The core 2500 is available but I'm happy to pay more. As you say, will have the budget case challenges of deadening and build quality. The Define C looks lovely but yeah, I'd need use USB optical. I've spent a while on Define 7 reviews, a few on the R6 but I didn't see the Define R5 until you mentioned it, thought it was out of production. Seems a few UK sellers have them. It has some advantages, such as no shroud, which should help flow, an extra ODD for easy disc ripping, and that side panel. Downsides are multiple top vent covers, one less (older model) fan to experiment with, and a simpler fan controller. Still it's one of the best options, and comes in white like the others. I'll check availability....

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:26 pm

It's great that you want to experiment and are open to new ideas, but I'm afraid you can not be satisfied with what you thinking about. Let's analize for a while starting with noise sources and how strong they generally are:

PSU: low noise. Any decent (I mean not garbage one in type of Corsair VS), even with fan spinning all the time will be inaudible during idle and keep being like that until it cross 50% load of wattage. That's the last thing, which would worry me in terms of noise from all of the components. I woudn't even think about passive ones. Good active or semi-passive with option to be active (like more than enough good for gaming machine Fractal's Ion) and you have, what you wanted, you don't bother about shroud, you can have it with fan on the bottom, so filtered.

CPU cooler: low noise if overpowered and from the most efficient (lowest temps on low speeds). If so, it will be inaudible during idle (I've also had my Ninja 5 in mesh top case), you rather won't hear it during gaming and it will provide you great temps.

Case fans: medium noise. Let's take as example Define 7 with default fans: inaudible during idle, really quiet during most reasonable speed (efficiency/noise) of 1000 rpm under load. You will rather not or barely hear it running that speed in quiet room with just opened window.

GPU: no noise during idle if enough case ventillation to let it work passive (and semi-passive mode included), rather loudest components from above during games. Poor case ventilation will make it worse.

HDD: high noise and unbeatable bastards. Sound damended closed case will help somehow.

DVD drive: high noise you can't do anything about it.

So then try it your way - mesh case with one fan or not: you can't hear passive PSU, you can't hear passive CPU cooler (let's say it handles temps), case fan, let's say, is tolerable, HDDs are noisy as they can be, the same with DVD drive. But the real problem can be with some strong GPU like 3070. It could struggle to keep passive (inaudible) during no-load and will be definitely hotter and louder during games without ventilation tunnel. I don't know how much bad it will be, because I've never removed case fans, to see what happens. It just works like that and you can see for yourself. I suspect it all be inaudible or barely audible during idle, loud as hell because of GPU lacking air during load and icreasing temps of passive cooled CPU as a bonus. Doing something like this in closed sound-dampened case will make it worse.

My way with great sound dampened case will make active PSU, CPU cooler, case fans and GPU inaudible during webrowsing, drives quieter. During games you will have decent ventillation of everything, so you will be able to sacrifice as much temps as you want for quieter operation.

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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:35 am

Science experiments are always fun. A couple of comments:
- passive convective cooling (hot air rises) gets overpowered by a slight amount of airflow through a case. Then, it's hot air goes in the direction of airflow.
- I can't point to specific models, but I'm pretty sure many current mobos have fan stop features baked in for both CPU and case.
- GTX 3070 has a 220W TDP, RX 570 is 150W.

So, you should be able to have a completely passive design for medium to high CPU loads and only 2D gfx tasks.

As soon as you game, the gfx card will be the dominant noise source (ignoring spinning drives) and you will need decent case airflow to keep case temps in check which in turn keep CPU and GPU temps lower and their fans running at lower speeds. At this point, a CPU with a fanless cooler will run hotter than one with a decent fanned cooler.

If you didn't want to game with this PC and only had an integrated or a 75W TDP Gfx card, then there could be some benefit to the fanless cpu cooler. But, then I'd point you toward the HDPlex cases as a better fit. Especially if you are doing live mic work.

quad
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by quad » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:56 am

Science experiments are always fun
Indeed it take me back to my uni science days. I was taken to doing a quick experiment with my current setup. It turned out my rear vent Noctua was already unconnected, so I checked idle and load temps turned the top Scythe S-FLEX off on the Antec P182 case and repeated. So the only fans were the PSU and CPU. On idle, CPU increased by 6 deg C, and GPU 4 deg C. On load, the GPU went up by 6 deg, my CPU increase was 12C but I suspect a bad test method. Edit: rechecked - it's a 7 deg increase. First with Cinebench then Prime95. Will repeat to make sure.
Noise output was basically a function of GPU fan speed, with a difference in error margins with top fan on and off, according to an iphone dB meter app. Fan on results in GPU fan at 2000 rpm, and off it goes to 2200 rpm. So yes, case fans make a difference, but in my current situation, the CPU + GPU heat just squirted out the top and rear without assistance. Door open and vent flaps open dropped a degree or two and changed the noise signature.

[Antec P182 / Corsiar HX520 / Gigabyte X58 board / Xeon x5670 slight OC / Noctua NHU12P (1 on CPU, 1 on rear, but off) / Scythe S-FLEX on top vent]
current mobos have fan stop features
This I honestly didn't know. I knew there were hardware tricks with fan controllers, and people doing automation with arduinos and thermocouples, and of course try your luck with Speedfan's support. But having it baked in is a great boon. From a search MSI and Gigabyte boards have this support, Asus less so. I found Asus board software (from a P6T) unreliable in the old days. This brings back the option of having some case or even CPU fans in but triggered only on throttling temps.

Passive with non 3D tasks should be achievable. I do play a lot of 2D games too, having the fans off in that scenario would be a boon. Thankfully my audio needs are amateur, and if I find the PC not suitable for mics, I'll switch to using the mics on a mobile device and copy audio over. That HDPlex looks lovely and would be an ideal tool to use for splitting the tasks - that for workstation, and a more trad machine for 3D. I was tempted to explore eGPUs as an alternative of the PC refresh, but my ultrabook CPU would be limiting (as well as the TB3 link).

So I've ordered the Define R6, but on backorder with no delivery date. It is 40% cheaper than the Define 7 on Amazon right now. Thanks for your thoughts folks.
Last edited by quad on Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:59 am

Report, when you build this computer ;)

quad
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by quad » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:26 am

Totally will, now I've got to find the right motherboard and CPU, which in 2021 is harder than it should be :o

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Case for Semi-Passive Zen 3 build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:41 am

If you have any questions about other components, feel free to ask :]

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