Cheap, widely available sound Insulation wanted!

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:39 am

I'm thinking of putting some insulating material inside my computer case to help quiet down these noisey hard drives of mine. I've see the QuietPC website and such and I just can't imagine spending $70 on something that isn't guaranteed to work. I also want it to be something widely available, like I could buy it from the local hardware store.

I'm wondering if I'll basically get 90% as good a performance out of something such as carpet underlay. Maybe thick rubber, like something i could get chopping up a rubber floor mat.

Does anyone have some thoughts, recommendations to spend from their experience.

Thanks.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 12:27 pm

The guys here like that "melamine" stuff that they get from McMaster-Carr. It's cheap and works about as well as anything. Search the forums for "melamine" and you'll get tons of info about this subject.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:04 pm

Many people will tell you that the best approach is to use a layered tactic.

If you've identified the drives as a noise source, your first step should be to do some sound isolation on the drives with either rubber grommet mounts, or suspending them. (search the threads for reccomended how to tactics...) I've also had fairly good luck by jamming a couple peices of cut up mouse pad foam in between the drive and the cage. This will reduce noise transmission from the drive to adjacent metal parts that can function as amplifiers to make the racket worse.

I also reccomend adding damping or isolation between as many metal parts as possible. I like to get weatherstripping foam from the local hardware store and apply a few strips between any metal parts that I can get apart. (I first did this on a 386 system with a noisy drive years before anyone was talking about PC noise in a serious way, and was very happy with the results.)

Once you've done that, start doing layered sound suppression on the inside of the case metal.

The first layer is sound damping, to kill any resonant noise transmission / amplification that comes from vibrations. The popular economy approach is 'Asphalt Roofer's Tape' available for about $12 at your local hardware super store. This is a thin layer of rubberized asphalt adhesive and a layer of thin aluminum foil. I've applied it to panels that untreated would make a decent gong, and the after result was a dull thud. A single layer should be sufficient, I also found that even partially covering a panel greatly reduced it's resonant noise potential.

After doing the sound damping, the next layer should be sound absorbtion. The reccomended budget material for this is either the Melamine foam from McMaster's described earlier, or foam carpet underpadding. You can probably get enough remnants of the carpet pad for less than what the melamine would cost. (it seems to be a tossup as to which works better...) Either can be attached to the roofers tape with 3M spray adhesive, or I found some trowel on 'Indoor / Outdoor carpet cement that seems to work well and cost much less.

Some folks suggest doing multiple layers of foam on areas where space allows, others say it isn't neccessary. Note that these treatments MAY cause your temps to go up, so keep a close eye on your temps after applying these materials to make sure that nothing gets dangerously hot.

Hope this helps,

Gooserider

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:42 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:The guys here like that "melamine" stuff that they get from McMaster-Carr. It's cheap and works about as well as anything. Search the forums for "melamine" and you'll get tons of info about this subject.

From what I have read this melamine always appears to be related to specific sites that sell it on the internet or perhaps if I go to a store specializing in making speakers they might have it.

As it happens, I live in the residential corner of the city where it's a lot easier to find a generic hardware store than one of these specialty speaker stores. I was looking for something a little more "around the house" than top quality engineered parts.

If you think I can walk into a hardware store and ask for some "melamine foam" and they'll know exactly what I'm talking about I apologize!

Thanks for the response Ralf

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:14 pm

Gooserider:

Thanks for the response. Some of these ideas are similar to what I have read on the silentpc site as well as other sites. I do have a few questions.

1. Does using this first "foil" type layer (asphalt roofer's tape) really do that much. I would think that putting foil basically right on a metal case anyways wouldn't do much. In my mind this is 1% of the problem and the padding for sound absorption is 99% of the problem. I guess from experience, how much difference does the foil layer make. To me it seems to be something that would make a huge mess of your computer case so I hope it is VERY helpful!

2. I'll have to do some more reading about some of this hard drive mounting but I have a more general question about it. My hard drive is a tight fit in the cage, how exactly am I going to fit equipment in there to create separation! Also, I think things like 7200 rpm (non-fluid bearing) Western Digital and IBM drives that I have are just loud. The noise transmits to the air moreso than to the metal is my feeling. Again, the padding would appear to be the solution.

3. In terms of experiments with carpet underlay, have you tried (or heard experiences) of using the typical underlay (usually multicolored, called Rebond I by some people) vs. the premium rubber type underlay?

4. I've got a Celeron 1 Ghz in this machine currenty, motherboard temp is only 24 C, how much can this temperature go up before I should get worried? I don't have a CPU temp guage unfortunately so I hope looking at the internal temperature is enough. Incidentally I noticed the IBM hard drive has a temp guange on it and I can use it as an indicator of temperature closer to the air intake part of the machine. Incidentally a ton of noise from the front of the computer is heard through the front part of the computer case at the bottom where the air intake is located.

Thanks for your reply by the way, it was exactly the type of info that will come in handy as I'm walking around RONA/Home Depot tomorrow.

I'm in a new neighborhood so I may even look in recycle bins for small bits of underlay that has been tossed away. May as well try some free experiments first!

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:53 am

I'll add my own comments in between:

1. Does using this first "foil" type layer (asphalt roofer's tape) really do that much.

Yes. It makes a world of difference in most cases. Most problems you have with cases are vibrations that cause parts (or the whole of the) case to vibrate in accordance with a fan / cdrw drive / hd or some other moving part.

If you kill that vibration first by increasing mass and damping properties, you are set to go with sound absorption (which is harder to achieve in general).

It's not just an aluminium foil though. It's bitumen or some other heavier (lead-rubber compound for example) material that increases the mass of various metal parts and shifts their resonant frequencies lower.

My hard drive is a tight fit in the cage, how exactly am I going to fit equipment in there to create separation!

Most people have this problem :)

You can try fitting 3.5" HDs into 5.25" bays with proper parts or do a DIY suspension (heavier rubber bands are popular).

Also, I think things like 7200 rpm (non-fluid bearing) Western Digital and IBM drives that I have are just loud.

Correct. You can get less noisy (in terms of seeks and idle noise) models from both Samsung and Seagate. The latest Hitachi (post-IBM) drives are not supposed to be all that bad either, although not Samsung level (SP80/SV80-series) yet.

The noise transmits to the air moreso than to the metal is my feeling. Again, the padding would appear to be the solution.

Sound transmits from metal to metal easier than from metal to air. Or more generally, almost all metals transfer sound better (and faster) than air does.

You basically have two sources of noise to kill (and two approaches to deal with them):

- vibration, mostly loud seeks (suspend the drive from the PC chassis)
- aiborne sound after vibration has been dealt with, like idle whine of the spindle motor of the HD (get a silent HD to begin with and/or encapsulate the HD in sound absorbtion material)

how much can this temperature go up before I should get worried?

Assuming that your CPU temp readings are correct (24 C seems awfully low for any CPU of that class), you should only start to consider additional measures after you pass the 55 C mark (IMHO) and even then you could probably run it safely up to and including 65 C.

However, I do guess that your CPU temp readings are at least 10 degrees centigrade too low.

May as well try some free experiments first!

Great! This is always a good idea. I've always learned more when experimenting and sometimes it pays off to experiment with cheaper materials, before doing the final version with more expensive goods :)

regards,
Halcyon

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:30 am

It's not just an aluminium foil though. It's bitumen or some other heavier (lead-rubber compound for example) material that increases the mass of various metal parts and shifts their resonant frequencies lower.

Hmmm, I'm still having difficulty figuring this out exactly. If I just want mass, then my choice would be to avoid something that would make a mess like bitumen (I work in the oil business, bitumen is a gooey mess). So I'm trying to figure out here, what are the properties of this object that I want. Is it the fact that bitumen is "fluid-like"? Could I line the case with vaseline and the effect would be the same!!!

You can try fitting 3.5" HDs into 5.25" bays with proper parts or do a DIY suspension (heavier rubber bands are popular).

I've only got one 5.25" bay left, and 3 hard drives to take care of. I have seen some cases that appear to lend themselves better to suspending hard drives than mine. Mine sort of has slits where you put the screws in, the better cases have holes all over the place, they look a lot better for using rubber grommets. Maybe appearance is deceving though.

Sound transmits from metal to metal easier than from metal to air. Or more generally, almost all metals transfer sound better (and faster) than air does.

Again, I'm going back to theory here but sound always conducts faster through a denser medium. But then again, something like a foam bad doesn't conduct well. It's hard to marry all of this theory with result...totally need to experiment.

You basically have two sources of noise to kill (and two approaches to deal with them):

- vibration, mostly loud seeks (suspend the drive from the PC chassis)
- aiborne sound after vibration has been dealt with, like idle whine of the spindle motor of the HD (get a silent HD to begin with and/or encapsulate the HD in sound absorbtion material)

To be very honest it's the constant whine of the hard drive that annoys the hell out of me. It's high pitched and I can hear it from the top of the stairs. I could see hard drive seek sounds transmitting through the metal in the case moreso than the constant squeal. At this point I'm focusing way more on the constant high pitched hum.

Assuming that your CPU temp readings are correct (24 C seems awfully low for any CPU of that class), you should only start to consider additional measures after you pass the 55 C mark (IMHO) and even then you could probably run it safely up to and including 65 C.

However, I do guess that your CPU temp readings are at least 10 degrees centigrade too low.

This is only an inside the box motherboard temperature, not the temperature right on the CPU. When I bought this computer 3 years ago or so when they put it together they only put the ASUS temperature sensor on the board, not right on the CPU. Don't know why, they put one on the CPU on my 166MMX when I had an ASUS board.

I'm going to get ready and go to the store to see what I find...

Thanks again, keep the suggestions coming in.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:02 pm

ostul8or:
Gooserider:

Thanks for the response. Some of these ideas are similar to what I have read on the silentpc site as well as other sites. I do have a few questions.

You're welcome, I should give credit, much of what I do and reccomend is based on information from those sites, with a bit of filtering and evaluation as to what seems to make sense and get consistently reported as effective.

1. Does using this first "foil" type layer (asphalt roofer's tape) really do that much. I would think that putting foil basically right on a metal case anyways wouldn't do much. In my mind this is 1% of the problem and the padding for sound absorption is 99% of the problem. I guess from experience, how much difference does the foil layer make. To me it seems to be something that would make a huge mess of your computer case so I hope it is VERY helpful!

I think it is. The tape is not simply foil, or asphalt as you seem to be under the impression it is. It is actually a fairly complex structure. (from the package description:)

First there is a very thin layer of adhesive polymer film which is what actually does the sticking. It seems to bond fairly lightly at first, but rapidly increases strength with time and / or rubbing the tape down. (on the roll, it is covered with release paper)

Next is a layer of 'rubberized asphalt adhesive back' which is about 40 mil thick.

On top of that is another layer of polymer film which sticks to the 'Reflective aluminum composite foil' which is somewhweres between tinfoil and flashing in thickness. The foil is thick enough to be fairly puncture resistant, but is very soft and flexible. The tape cuts easily with a utility knife.

It is quite neat when installed, however I suspect that it would be difficult and messy if one attempted to remove it.

As to effectiveness - Most metal, if it isn't damped, will resonate just like a gong when struck. Vibrations from a drive running or seeking will make the case metal resonate like a gong that is constantly being hit with lots of little tiny hammers. The rubber and foil in the tape don't want to vibrate at the same frequency as the metal, and since the tape is bonded to the metal it keeps the metal from resonating. If you can put your hands anywhere on the case and change the pitch of, or reduce, the noise you hear then you are almost certain to get big benefits from damping. The amplification produced by metal resonance is a far bigger part of PC noise than most people appreciate.

It is also important to note that almost any glue in damping approach is going to be difficult to undo, to the point where I would say it is something you only want to do once on a given case, so it is worth the extra expense and effort to do as good a job as possible the first time. IMHO the benefit of roofers tape is great enough that it is well worth the cost - if it doesn't help you haven't lost much.

2. I'll have to do some more reading about some of this hard drive mounting but I have a more general question about it. My hard drive is a tight fit in the cage, how exactly am I going to fit equipment in there to create separation! Also, I think things like 7200 rpm (non-fluid bearing) Western Digital and IBM drives that I have are just loud. The noise transmits to the air moreso than to the metal is my feeling. Again, the padding would appear to be the solution.

Padding will help certainly, but it is an important fact in noise suppression that the closer you can get to the source, the easier and more effective the techniques are. There are various tips here for directly packaging the drives, but you will need to deal with the narrow bays before you can do much with and of them no matter what. Isolation is possibly the simplest approach.

There are basically two methods of dealing with a snug 3.5" drive cage, either finding a vacant 5.25" bay and moving the drives to it (probably doing a suspension type mount) or modding the existing 3.5" bay to make it slightly wider. How depends on your particular chassis design, and the level of your modding skills. Simplest is just to bow the sides of the bay out. It's cheap, fairly easy, and works OK, but looks ugly, and may not make enough room for the top and bottom of the drive. More complex approaches can involve cutting the bay metal and trying to make it wider by splicing in an extra couple of peices, or doing other mods.

3. In terms of experiments with carpet underlay, have you tried (or heard experiences) of using the typical underlay (usually multicolored, called Rebond I by some people) vs. the premium rubber type underlay?

I have heard some people advise against each type and reccomend the other... There was a thread where this was discussed, and another poster cited a website that discussed the materials from a carpet installation perspective. (try searching on 'rebond foam') From that it appears that there are different grades of rebond, and that the best approach is the heavy weight rebond.

4. I've got a Celeron 1 Ghz in this machine currenty, motherboard temp is only 24 C, how much can this temperature go up before I should get worried? I don't have a CPU temp guage unfortunately so I hope looking at the internal temperature is enough. Incidentally I noticed the IBM hard drive has a temp guange on it and I can use it as an indicator of temperature closer to the air intake part of the machine. Incidentally a ton of noise from the front of the computer is heard through the front part of the computer case at the bottom where the air intake is located.

I'm not sure on the CPU temps, especially for an Intel. I know that most CPU's have a 'max operating temp' in the 80-90*C range, and most of us get nervous if we get to 50-60*C. That is a temp measured directly off the CPU via either internal diode or a very closely mounted external sensor. If you only have a 'board temp' sensor, then I would be far more nervous and either try to get a better measuring technology or be really nervous if the temp you are seeing went up more than 5-10*C. Also watch for signs of instability in the form of video artifacts or more than the usual number of system crashes.

Thanks for your reply by the way, it was exactly the type of info that will come in handy as I'm walking around RONA/Home Depot tomorrow.

You're welcome, glad to help out.

I'm in a new neighborhood so I may even look in recycle bins for small bits of underlay that has been tossed away. May as well try some free experiments first!

Seems reasonable, but I would want to be sure of the vintage of any tossed underlay. You might do better to go to a carpet store and ask about remnants - I got an 8' X 10' plus hunk of heavy felt underlay for $10, I've heard of other folks getting smaller peices for even less. (Yes, I did say felt as opposed to foam rebond - the carpet place seemed to think it would work better, and I'm willing to try the experiment, will keep folks posted as to how it works out)

Gooserider

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:07 pm

Gooserider wrote:
Next is a layer of 'rubberized asphalt adhesive back' which is about 40 mil thick.

Oh boy, when I saw it today at the hardware store it was just a roll and it appeared to be maybe 3mm thick. 40 mil? How could you you get your case back onto the machine 40 mil = 4 cm of junk on it!

As to effectiveness - Most metal, if it isn't damped, will resonate just like a gong when struck. Vibrations from a drive running or seeking will make the case metal resonate like a gong that is constantly being hit with lots of little tiny hammers. The rubber and foil in the tape don't want to vibrate at the same frequency as the metal, and since the tape is bonded to the metal it keeps the metal from resonating. If you can put your hands anywhere on the case and change the pitch of, or reduce, the noise you hear then you are almost certain to get big benefits from damping. The amplification produced by metal resonance is a far bigger part of PC noise than most people appreciate.

It is also important to note that almost any glue in damping approach is going to be difficult to undo, to the point where I would say it is something you only want to do once on a given case, so it is worth the extra expense and effort to do as good a job as possible the first time. IMHO the benefit of roofers tape is great enough that it is well worth the cost - if it doesn't help you haven't lost much.

More than anything this is new to me, and I'm surprised about the recommended supplier in this area! I think about the undercoating/box liner put on my dad's truck which is basically a rubberized material and am thinking that would basically be the best thing to do here. It would be hard to spray with accuracy on a small object so I'm still wondering if basically some kind of caulking, sealant etc. might have the desired effect.

What about using some kind of rubber cement with a thin layer of cork over it. Would that work well, or does it not have the mass I need?

I am also at the stage right now where my PSU fan is so damned loud it's the first thing I have to do, all of these other improvements are next steps after that.

Padding will help certainly, but it is an important fact in noise suppression that the closer you can get to the source, the easier and more effective the techniques are. There are various tips here for directly packaging the drives, but you will need to deal with the narrow bays before you can do much with and of them no matter what. Isolation is possibly the simplest approach.

There are basically two methods of dealing with a snug 3.5" drive cage, either finding a vacant 5.25" bay and moving the drives to it (probably doing a suspension type mount) or modding the existing 3.5" bay to make it slightly wider. How depends on your particular chassis design, and the level of your modding skills. Simplest is just to bow the sides of the bay out. It's cheap, fairly easy, and works OK, but looks ugly, and may not make enough room for the top and bottom of the drive. More complex approaches can involve cutting the bay metal and trying to make it wider by splicing in an extra couple of peices, or doing other mods.

Yeah I can see dealing with the hard drives is going to be fun. I can stand them being noisy when they are being read/written because that's like 0.1% of the time. It's the constant squeal I hate. In the end I'm going to need some kind of enclosure in close proximity to the hard drives, but will probably need a fan in there to cool them off too. The fan will create some noise I imagine but we'll see when I get there.

I have heard some people advise against each type and reccomend the other... There was a thread where this was discussed, and another poster cited a website that discussed the materials from a carpet installation perspective. (try searching on 'rebond foam') From that it appears that there are different grades of rebond, and that the best approach is the heavy weight rebond.

I only saw 8 pound lb today, was hoping for 10 lb at least. I read about some super heavy stuff (I swear the post said it was 90 lb or whatever) and I'm wondering if that would qualify as open cell or closed cell because it sounds more like rubber). Again it makes me think, should I find a thick rubber floor mat and use it!

If you only have a 'board temp' sensor, then I would be far more nervous and either try to get a better measuring technology or be really nervous if the temp you are seeing went up more than 5-10*C.

Yeah I don't see how it's possible for the CPU to be running a lot hotter while the internal air temperature doesn't change. The exception is if I screw up the contact of the headsink against the CPU of course. When I touch the heatsinks of the CPU it's room temperature, not even warm (never have I tried this after putting the CPU at a heavy load for hours or anything).

Seems reasonable, but I would want to be sure of the vintage of any tossed underlay. You might do better to go to a carpet store and ask about remnants - I got an 8' X 10' plus hunk of heavy felt underlay for $10, I've heard of other folks getting smaller peices for even less. (Yes, I did say felt as opposed to foam rebond - the carpet place seemed to think it would work better, and I'm willing to try the experiment, will keep folks posted as to how it works out)

Yeah this occurred to me today as I was at the hardware store looking at big massive rolls. I needed 8 sq feet but would probably have to buy 12 sq feet because the roll was 6 feet wide I think. My longest dimension is 16 3/4 inches so I guess if they will sell 6 feet by 18 inches that's 9 sq feet. Anyways, definitely more efficient ways to do it. To be honest, I think carpeting type stores carry more variety and would give me more ideas.

It's going to be hard as I experiment more to figure out what is quieter without being biased. The audiophiles always have a phrase for it, I forget what they call it.

Thanks again

P.S. Let me know if you can help rule out or recommend some better PSU fans. Here is the store I deal with if you want to see a few of the brands I'm looking at:

http://www.memoryexpress.com/FrameCaseFans.php

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:15 am

postul8or wrote:
Gooserider wrote:
Next is a layer of 'rubberized asphalt adhesive back' which is about 40 mil thick.
Oh boy, when I saw it today at the hardware store it was just a roll and it appeared to be maybe 3mm thick. 40 mil? How could you you get your case back onto the machine 40 mil = 4 cm of junk on it!

That's probably a typo from Gooserider, it should be 4 mm, not 40mm. wonder what the case would weigh with 40mm roofer's tape covering the inside!?

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:26 am

postul8or,

RE: damping materials
I used bitumen (or lead-rubber compound) as an example, I'm sure there are better ones. Those two are the options I have available locally myself. Also, as I'm translating from Finnish to English, I*m not even totally sure bitumen is the correct word for what I mean. It's rubberish black material used as sheets here and often used for vibration damping in various applications (cars and also to some extent, computers).

I'd gladly hear more about various cheap resonance killing materials and their various properties (damping factors, smell, weight, applications, cost, etc.), not being a mechanical engineer myself.

RE: 3.5" bays

You could try bending the case walls. Some have done this after which they've been able to use rubber grommets for mounting the drives.

RE: vibration conduction
Yes, dense materials do conduct sound easier (and faster). Structural characteristics beyond density play into equation as well, but not being a mechanical... you get the point :)

RE: whine

I'd definately concentrate on wrapping the drive in sound asorbing material (foamed plastics, melamine, etc), given that your HD temps allow for such a move.

RE: Temps
Have you tried using Motherboard monitor? Your mobo might have a usable sensor closer to the CPU (or even within the cpu):

http://mbm.livewiredev.com/

Download the software and locate your mobo from the left side "Motherboard list" navigation option.

Best of luck with your mods!

regards,
Halcyon

frosty · Post by **frosty** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:57 am

You may try and use thin flexible round bungie cords to suspend the hd in the last 51/2 bay and or use elastic from a fabric store, i did this with mine and much humming vibro's disappeared, but now I need to get a fan blowing air across the hd to keep temps below 40c

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:48 am

Your post has inspired a couple of questions,

halcyon wrote: RE: damping materials
I used bitumen (or lead-rubber compound) as an example, I'm sure there are better ones. Those two are the options I have available locally myself. Also, as I'm translating from Finnish to English, I*m not even totally sure bitumen is the correct word for what I mean. It's rubberish black material used as sheets here and often used for vibration damping in various applications (cars and also to some extent, computers).

I'd gladly hear more about various cheap resonance killing materials and their various properties (damping factors, smell, weight, applications, cost, etc.), not being a mechanical engineer myself.

First off, I talk to a couple of other Finns in forums and ICQ and am very impressed by how well you can speak (or I guess type) English. Our second language is French and if I try to speak it lets just say it's not pretty.

Now, this bitumen material you are saying comes in sheets. This sounds better than the roll that I saw, I would have to apply it in about 4" inch (10cm) strips as opposed to sheets/panels. If somebody has a picture of this material somewhere please let me know. Maybe it will clear up the confusion.

My current experiment with sleeping pad is going decent, the main thing I can say is that I need to try a few other materials to judge which works the best. Right now it's a waste of time until I get a new PSU fan.

RE: 3.5" bays

You could try bending the case walls. Some have done this after which they've been able to use rubber grommets for mounting the drives.

RE: vibration conduction
Yes, dense materials do conduct sound easier (and faster). Structural characteristics beyond density play into equation as well, but not being a mechanical... you get the point

RE: whine

I'd definately concentrate on wrapping the drive in sound asorbing material (foamed plastics, melamine, etc), given that your HD temps allow for such a move.

This is going to take some work, I have 3 hard drives - 2 of them very noisy the other is average. So if I mount/suspend one of them carefully in the 5 1/2" bay, will it really matter when I can only do a little improvement on the others in the 3 1/2" bays.

Only one of my hard drives has a temp guage and it reads about 37 C most of the time, I'm thinking if I do much to confine it further it will get up to 45+ on a hot summer day. It's probably about 18 C in this basement, the interior of the case is usually about 23 C.

Funny thing was yesterday when I had the computer case off the computer internal temp was 25 C and the hard drive was 41 C. I guess it prefers the air flow direction when the case is on.

RE: Temps
Have you tried using Motherboard monitor? Your mobo might have a usable sensor closer to the CPU (or even within the cpu):

http://mbm.livewiredev.com/

Download the software and locate your mobo from the left side "Motherboard list" navigation option.

I tried this program and many others and it's all the same story. I believe I only have a sensor for the motherboard temperature and CPU fan speed (and voltages). The only program that appears to display my hard drive temperature is DTemp. I tried to use CPU cool, which has 4 slots for hard drive temperatures but it measures my 1st hard drive 3 times in a row, then the 2nd hard drive. The hard drive with the temp guage is of course the one not in the list (Murphy's Law). No other programs appeared to be the "do everything" program I want, and I dislike some of the interfaces.

I believe I could buy another ASUS temp guage to measure CPU temp (there is an open connector for another temperature probe or whatever it's called). I'm actually not sure how I set it up exactly, but I'm not sure if I could even find one anymore. This system is a 1 Ghz Celeron, before that it was a P3 450 Mhz on a slot 1 card and I bought a Socket 370 card to upgrade it to a Celeron. Hey, about $100 doubled myspeed pretty much at the time more than a year ago LOL!

I notice the Intel prices have been sitting very steady for months, I want to buy a new P4 but when our dollar has gone up 10% against the US dollar and prices haven't moved....I'm waiting for the move.

I have a knack for buying something, and like the next day it goes on sale. This only happens with my computer purchases.

CallMeJoe · Post by **CallMeJoe** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:01 pm

Henrik wrote:
postul8or wrote:
Gooserider wrote:
Next is a layer of 'rubberized asphalt adhesive back' which is about 40 mil thick.
Oh boy, when I saw it today at the hardware store it was just a roll and it appeared to be maybe 3mm thick. 40 mil? How could you you get your case back onto the machine 40 mil = 4 cm of junk on it!

That's probably a typo from Gooserider, it should be 4 mm, not 40mm. wonder what the case would weigh with 40mm roofer's tape covering the inside!?

40 mil = 40/1000 inch, approx 1mm, not 40mm. Gooserider must be calibrated SAE, not metric.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:21 pm

My bad. Sorry. Have never heard of 'mil' before. You learn something new every day, exciting isn't it?

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:07 pm

Me neither, had never heard of mil before either. Interesting...

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:55 pm

postul8or:
Oh boy, when I saw it today at the hardware store it was just a roll and it appeared to be maybe 3mm thick. 40 mil? How could you you get your case back onto the machine 40 mil = 4 cm of junk on it!

As pointed out by others, mil <not => mm! It is an old SAE measurment = .001". I was paraphrasing off the package label, and was afraid it would get all the metricified folks confused.

I would say (without measuring it) that the total thickness of the tape is between 1/16" - 1/8" or 2-4mm.

More than anything this is new to me, and I'm surprised about the recommended supplier in this area! I think about the undercoating/box liner put on my dad's truck which is basically a rubberized material and am thinking that would basically be the best thing to do here. It would be hard to spray with accuracy on a small object so I'm still wondering if basically some kind of caulking, sealant etc. might have the desired effect.

I think the bedliner stuff would be to thin, and probably would tend to vibrate with the metal to much. You want something thick and heavy enough that the metal just isn't going to be able to make it vibrate. A caulking compound might do the same thing, but I would think it would be harder to apply and make more of a mess. The roofers tape is easy to apply, about like putting on a bumper sticker.

What about using some kind of rubber cement with a thin layer of cork over it. Would that work well, or does it not have the mass I need?

I don't think it would have the mass you need. I've more often heard of cork in the context of sound absorber rather than as a sound damper (and it isn't a great absorber)

I only saw 8 pound lb today, was hoping for 10 lb at least. I read about some super heavy stuff (I swear the post said it was 90 lb or whatever) and I'm wondering if that would qualify as open cell or closed cell because it sounds more like rubber). Again it makes me think, should I find a thick rubber floor mat and use it!

I believe the 90lb stuff is a specialty item for oriental carpets, but it isn't what you want. What you are after is a spongier material that sound will penetrate and not be able to get back out of. The heavy stuff might make a good damper, but would be a lousy absorber since the sound would just bounce off it.

Yeah I don't see how it's possible for the CPU to be running a lot hotter while the internal air temperature doesn't change. The exception is if I screw up the contact of the headsink against the CPU of course. When I touch the heatsinks of the CPU it's room temperature, not even warm (never have I tried this after putting the CPU at a heavy load for hours or anything)

The problem is 'thermal compression' where a large change in CPU temp produces a much smaller change in case temp. Since an HSF will dump heat better as it heats up, and there is normally more air flowing through a case than is strictly needed, the CPU might be able to heat up considerably before it would be noticed elsewhere.

Now, this bitumen material you are saying comes in sheets. This sounds better than the roll that I saw, I would have to apply it in about 4" inch (10cm) strips as opposed to sheets/panels. If somebody has a picture of this material somewhere please let me know. Maybe it will clear up the confusion.

I fond the strips easy to work with, the smallish size (my roll was 6" (15cm) wide BTW) was easy to cut to the length I needed, then peel the paper off part way and stick it on. You could trim it as needed to get a flush fit, but the stuff is thin enough that it isn't a big deal if it overlaps, the sound absorbing material I glued on over the tape hid the seams. Nothing wrong with sheet material but I would expect it to be a bit trickier to fit nicely.

Gooserider

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:10 am

Gooserider wrote:I think the bedliner stuff would be to thin, and probably would tend to vibrate with the metal to much. You want something thick and heavy enough that the metal just isn't going to be able to make it vibrate. A caulking compound might do the same thing, but I would think it would be harder to apply and make more of a mess.

The bedliner I'm thinking of is the spray on stuff, looks basically like a fairly hard rubber that has some coarse texture (I guess so contents don't shift as much, plus you spray it on not roll it on so it's not so exact in the methods of application). This is actually quite a thick layer you use on the truck, if I get a digital camera some day I will show you. This came to mind because a gravel road became very quiet once we put this same material as an undercoating on the truck.

The problem is 'thermal compression' where a large change in CPU temp produces a much smaller change in case temp. Since an HSF will dump heat better as it heats up, and there is normally more air flowing through a case than is strictly needed, the CPU might be able to heat up considerably before it would be noticed elsewhere.

Good point, I knew for sure that a 1 C increase in the CPU was not a 1 C increase in the case temperature. If the ratio is 10 C in CPU temp before I see a change in the case temperature then yes I guess it's too hard to detect. I'll look into getting another sensor, but first I would have to learn more about placing it. It seems to me the best I could do is stick the sensor on the heat sink as close to the CPU as possible.

I fond the strips easy to work with, the smallish size (my roll was 6" (15cm) wide BTW) was easy to cut to the length I needed, then peel the paper off part way and stick it on. You could trim it as needed to get a flush fit, but the stuff is thin enough that it isn't a big deal if it overlaps, the sound absorbing material I glued on over the tape hid the seams. Nothing wrong with sheet material but I would expect it to be a bit trickier to fit nicely.

I will try to find a picture of this sometime so I can get some confirmation that I'm working with the proper thing. I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same product. I will probably try this out some day but first I have to address the hard drive noise, PSU fan and then I'm pretty sure my CPU fan is actually noisier than I think. However, the CPU fan is like 1 mm away from the PSU in this case so I'm wondering if my experiment will have to end there. If I can't work on the CPU fan, how much more work should I put into the rest of the case. Hard to say...I will proceed with the PSU fan replacement and work on the hard drives but I fear the hard drives are already having heat problems unless I put a fan in there to cool them too (the foam in the case makes the metal case near the area holding the hard drives feel a lot hotter even through the hard drive temperature meter in DTemp actually says it's 2 C cooler since putting the foam in!

My only explanation is that the foam decrease the volume inside the case and therefore airflow is actually faster. Either that or the HD temp gauge is a joke.

silentbob · Post by **silentbob** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:09 pm

Here's a Shock-Mount hard drive rack design of mine. It can lower your hard drive noise a bit. It won't work wonders, but it will help, especially if your drives are transferring vibration into the case, which often amplifies the noise.

http://www.overclockers.com/tips1108/

P.S. I've been looking around for that roofer's tape, too. It seems that my local Lowes and Home Depot don't carry it. I tried buying a gallon of Asphalt Roof Coating, but I can't call it a tremendous success. It took 3 days to dry on each side panel and the difference in noise was not substantial. I think I may have gotten the wrong thing and should have gotten rubber-based roof coating, instead of asphalt-based. I'm going to start checking with the mom-and-pop hardware stores for that tape.

aphonos · Post by **aphonos** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:58 pm

While we are in the practice of shameless self-promotion

.....Aphonos' 2-Drive Suspension

silentbob wrote:P.S. I've been looking around for that roofer's tape, too. It seems that my local Lowes and Home Depot don't carry it. I tried buying a gallon of Asphalt Roof Coating, but I can't call it a tremendous success. It took 3 days to dry on each side panel and the difference in noise was not substantial. I think I may have gotten the wrong thing and should have gotten rubber-based roof coating, instead of asphalt-based. I'm going to start checking with the mom-and-pop hardware stores for that tape.

silentbob (aka formerly cmcquisition??)Have you already seen the info in this thread (Minor demo on roofer tape as vibration damper...)starting with my post and reading down two responses to what Gooserider provides? It should be a standard Lowe's item. If they don't stock it, did you ask if they can special order?

postul8or - (1) {a bit Off Topic for the thread title, but in keeping with the questions you have asked.....]What case model do you currently have? (2) Perhaps you mentioned it and I missed it in my reading, but what is your current fan configuration? Brand&Model? Size (80, 92, 120mm?)? Location (intake, exhaust)? Speed (rpm and/or voltage-5, 7, 12, etc)? (3) Have you considered placing your HDDs on a bed of foam on the bottom of your case? Alternately, you could use something like the strips of rubber carving block that I used in my suspension system to separate the drives in a stacked configuration. (Depends on how much you move the case around....but I guess you could easily construct some type of support).

silentbob · Post by **silentbob** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:19 pm

aphonos, at my local Lowes, they said that they used to stock it, but don't anymore, evidently. I didn't think to ask them if they could special-order it. I may do that.

I had read that other thread, in the past, but I overlooked some of it, the last time I read it last. It seems McMaster-Carr may stock something useful.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:27 pm

postul8or:
The bedliner I'm thinking of is the spray on stuff, looks basically like a fairly hard rubber that has some coarse texture (I guess so contents don't shift as much, plus you spray it on not roll it on so it's not so exact in the methods of application). This is actually quite a thick layer you use on the truck, if I get a digital camera some day I will show you. This came to mind because a gravel road became very quiet once we put this same material as an undercoating on the truck.

Well, I haven't seen it, so I could easily be wrong on my opinion, which was mostly an off the cuff guess.

Good point, I knew for sure that a 1 C increase in the CPU was not a 1 C increase in the case temperature. If the ratio is 10 C in CPU temp before I see a change in the case temperature then yes I guess it's too hard to detect. I'll look into getting another sensor, but first I would have to learn more about placing it. It seems to me the best I could do is stick the sensor on the heat sink as close to the CPU as possible.

There are several thermal monitor products for PC's, many of them come with very flat probes that can be slipped into the gap between the CPU and the HSF until they touch the die. (The Digi-Doc flat probes come to mind, there are others) It isn't a perfect solution but it is about as close as you can get without an on-die thermal diode.

I will try to find a picture of this sometime so I can get some confirmation that I'm working with the proper thing. I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same product. I will probably try this out some day but first I have to address the hard drive noise, PSU fan and then I'm pretty sure my CPU fan is actually noisier than I think. However, the CPU fan is like 1 mm away from the PSU in this case so I'm wondering if my experiment will have to end there. If I can't work on the CPU fan, how much more work should I put into the rest of the case. Hard to say...I will proceed with the PSU fan replacement and work on the hard drives but I fear the hard drives are already having heat problems unless I put a fan in there to cool them too (the foam in the case makes the metal case near the area holding the hard drives feel a lot hotter even through the hard drive temperature meter in DTemp actually says it's 2 C cooler since putting the foam in!

One of the other threads on this forum has a picture of the roll with pointers to more info, and a description of the label off my roll. One of the earlier responses mentioned it, so I won't repeat.
I water cool, so I can't claim much experience with CPU or HDD fans, but it seems a popular mod to swap out the HSF unit and fan. It also doesn't take a lot of airflow to cool the HDD's, so you can handle that with an undervolted 80mm which won't add much (if anything) to the noise - if you reduce the HDD noise significantly, but then have to add a quiet fan that puts back some, it can still be a net gain.

My only explanation is that the foam decrease the volume inside the case and therefore airflow is actually faster. Either that or the HD temp gauge is a joke.

Could be either.

I tried buying a gallon of Asphalt Roof Coating, but I can't call it a tremendous success. It took 3 days to dry on each side panel and the difference in noise was not substantial. I think I may have gotten the wrong thing and should have gotten rubber-based roof coating, instead of asphalt-based. I'm going to start checking with the mom-and-pop hardware stores for that tape.

I agree, it sounds like that was the wrong stuff. I think what you need is something that will give a fairly thick layer - I suspect you need about as much thickness as the roofers tape at a minimum. If all else fails, I think McMasters has the roofers tape (as well as some other alternative products)

Gooserider

silentbob · Post by **silentbob** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:19 am

Gooserider wrote:I agree, it sounds like that was the wrong stuff. I think what you need is something that will give a fairly thick layer - I suspect you need about as much thickness as the roofers tape at a minimum. If all else fails, I think McMasters has the roofers tape (as well as some other alternative products)

Gooserider

I did paint it on really thick, probably 2-5mm all around. The problem is, the system was pretty quiet already. Before the ashalt roofing patch, I had carpet foam taped to all the sides, top, etc. After I painted the panels with the ashalt roofing patch, I stuck the carpet foam to it, before it had fully dried. The side panels are a bit heavier, I just don't think it made much difference, because I didn't have a lot of vibration getting through, before.

My main noise of this computer is just the sound of moving air. I'm not sure how much more insulation can help that.

I'm in the vicious cycle (get one thing quieter, something else becomes noticable, get that quieter, something else becomes noticable, an on and on and on.) Pretty soon, I'm going to be re-insulating my office walls and ceiling

(you know, the neighborhood dogs barking are really getting to me.....)

postul8or · Post by **postul8or** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:59 am

aphonos wrote: postul8or - (1) {a bit Off Topic for the thread title, but in keeping with the questions you have asked.....]What case model do you currently have? (2) Perhaps you mentioned it and I missed it in my reading, but what is your current fan configuration? Brand&Model? Size (80, 92, 120mm?)? Location (intake, exhaust)? Speed (rpm and/or voltage-5, 7, 12, etc)? (3) Have you considered placing your HDDs on a bed of foam on the bottom of your case? Alternately, you could use something like the strips of rubber carving block that I used in my suspension system to separate the drives in a stacked configuration. (Depends on how much you move the case around....but I guess you could easily construct some type of support).

1. This is one of the problems, I can't remember what kind of case this is. I'm trying to figure it out, it might be an Antec, it's about 3 years old. I think it would be considered a mid size, something like 18" tall (ie. the Power supply is across from the CPU which is a major limitation for what I can do with heatsinks).

2. All it has is an 80mm fan in the power supply at the top back corner of the case and I don't know much about the power supply, it just came with the case. Anyways, whatever fan came with it is the one I'm still using. I believe there is a "Powerman" label on the PSU and there is kind of an arm symbol that they try to make strong looking!

There is an air intake of sorts at the bottom front of the case, just a bunch of holes on the outside but when you get inside there is the typical plastic contraption on the inside. I've always wondered what the point in that contraption is. On the back there are also some holes on the back of the case around where you plug in all the components (beside PCI cards, above USB ports etc.). I plugged them off with foam assuming it's the PSU fan that's doing the real ventilation. Since doing it motherboard and hard drive temps have dropped (leading to my conclusion that the pressures and airflow are improved by doing this).

Speed of the fan and voltage. There is no monitor for the PSU fan speed so I don't know I'd have to say it's much faster than the one in my Compaq at work (which is a new P4 machine). This matter of voltage is another story....I always thought you just plugged the cable into the fan and whatever voltage it gets is what it takes. Somebody can tell me now or later, but this is one of my big questions...how are people feeding different voltages to their fans? For the record my next purchase will probably be a panaflo 80mm fan to replace the one within my power supply which is pretty noisy.

3. I'm definitely willing to goof around with my hard drive configuration, that is for sure. I feel that all the hard drives, CD-ROMs are crammed to close together so certainly moving one to the bottom of the case is a good idea in many ways. The way in which it is a bad idea is that it would put it nearer to the air intake at the front of the case and the noise would project out the front of the case quite easily. I have assumed so far that I cannot block the air intake with foam! That being said, I need the typical dream enclosure for the hard drive which elimates noise without overheating.

One thing to bear in mind, I have one IBM hard drive with a temp guage on it so I do have something to benchmark temps with pretty easily. The caveat being if the temp gauges on them are accurate, if they tend to be a shoddy measurement let me know and I'll try to come up with something else to measure the temperature.

Volkswagen · Post by **Volkswagen** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:08 pm

Guys I am looking for some material that can be bought at Lowes/HomeDepot to help make my case silent....Is there anyhting I can get in 1 of those 2 stores?

Names of the product would be apprichiated :p

Volkswagen · Post by **Volkswagen** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:27 pm

would foam work

Volkswagen · Post by **Volkswagen** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:31 am

bump anyone ?

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:06 am

Gooserider has detailed description of Roofer's Tape from Lowe's in this thread

The top of this thread has other suggestions (carpet padding). Foam may help with lining the case, but may help more if you put it on the bottom of your case and rest your hard drive(s) on them. I don't do that, I used two strips of Sorbothane instead. The reduction in seek noise and vibration is pretty dramatic.

Foam ear plugs has been used for fan isolators by some people with some success.

Tin snips are available from Home Depot to cut extra holes, or remove restrictive fan grills.

All these will make your case quieter. The only thing from home depot that will make it completely silent is either a power switch to turn it off, or a very long extension cord

aphonos · Post by **aphonos** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:14 am

Volkswagen wrote:would foam work

Some types will work.

Did you read the Acousti-Pack review that Ralf linked in your cross-post on this subject?

I recommend you wade through the Cases & Damping forum or do a search for "foam" in the same forum.

Also check out these two threads:
Demystifying carpet underlay - help needed! - one type of material that some folks here use.
Minor demo on roofer tape as vibration damper... ( especially Gooserider's product description) - a type of vibration dampener that is used by folks here.

Sorry lenny types faster....

EDIT: a forum search on lowe* may yield other helpful results.