I might buy a 3700BQE soon to Watercool

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:52 pm

Ive decided to buy a 3700BQE when they come out in england whenever that is to put my watercooled computer in, im going to gut the hideous drive cage assembly as its silly and that is where my radiator needs to go (very hanily infront of the 120mm fan hole too!) The thing is i need somewhere to put my hard drives, if i bought 5 1/2" drive brackets to fit my HD in the top bays will it still fit with the drive rails and will i be able to put a plastic cover over it as well to hide it?

p.s. ill do a write up of my sexie beast when i get my new case

Seal

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:03 pm

hmm curious.. wouldn't it be better to mount the radiator at the back? the airflow out of the case there is much better - if you put the radiator at the front then all the hot air would just hit the front panel and stop there

also, putting it at the back allows you to mount it outside the case which is something i don't think you have room for in the front...

i'm not sure, i've seen people mount radiators at the front but it seems to make more sense to me to mount them at the rear.

let us know how it goes

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:21 pm

radiators and radiator fins are very delicate and can be dented easily, thats why the majority of people mount them inside the case. Also theyre somewhat bigger then they look and it wouldnt fit very well toward the back, which leaves the only sensible layout of having it at the front, sucking air in from the vents, blowing straight over the radiator and dispersed out the back of the case.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:41 pm

Generally, you will get the best possible cooling effectiveness if you put the coldest available air through the radiator - since that is normally going to be your room ambient air, it makes the most sense to put the rad at the intake of the case, which is usually bottom front.

In addition, all else being equal, a fan will usually move more volume and make less noise sucking through the rad than it will pushing through it. From a real estate layout position, it is again easier to put the fan at the case intake to get this.

What I generally see reccomended is to set up the rad so that it has either a fan sucking through it, or a fan on each side doing a 'push-pull' arrangement. The fans should be spaced at least one inch off the face of the rad using a tightly sealed duct / shroud.

The purists will say that the radiator exhaust air should be directed outside the case, with a seperate provision for ambient airflow through the rest of the case. (You will need at least SOME airflow through the case to cool those parts that you aren't getting with the WC hardware, I would guesstimate on the order of 20-30% of what an AC setup with the same hardware would need, minimum) However the info that I've seen suggests that the air going through a radiator in a typical WC setup is only going to be warmed by one or two degrees C. That being the situation, I don't feel that it makes that much difference if one uses the air coming out of the rad to also cool the rest of the case.

So what I think is a good general setup is to mount the rad at the lower front air intake position, with one or more fans in parallel (depending on the size of the rad, cover ~80% or more of the rad face with fans) sucking through the rad, using tightly fitted ducts, blowing into the case interior. Possibly have one or more exhaust fans, plus the PSU at the top rear blowing out of the case. Ideally the intake and exhaust fans should be balanced so that the case is running a slight overpressure.

Gooserider

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:28 am

yeah you were spot on there goose, you sound like a watercooler too!

in my experience once you get air flowing through the radiator (which will cool the processor) you dont really need to cool anything else so even if the air coming off the radiator is slightly hotter, it wont matter terribly much. The only reason why most people want cool air coming into the case is to cool down their processor but that job in a watercooling system is delt with by the radiator.

My gfx card is cooled passively with a heatsink and runs fine, my psu also runs well off 1/2 fan voltage.

As for how much hotter radiator temperatures are, well if you have your radiator fan blowing air quickly onto the radiator then the resulting temps will only be about 1-3 degrees higher. However i run my radiator fan on 4V (yes 4v!). As a result, the water heats up and dosent get cooled down as much meaning the resulting air that comes off the radiator wil be about 5-6 degrees higher. It works out still quite efficient though, let me share my temps with you:

(Full Load)
Ambient: 23 C
Cpu: 42 C
Radiator: 30 C
Case: 36 C

These temps are full load temps, with a very silent setup oh yeah, and a VERY heavy overclock too! Sounds too good to be true!... must be the watercooling

Definately reccomend it to anyone!

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:29 am

Thanks a lot gooserider - you're post was very informative.

Just a few questions - what case do you think is good for water cooling? I was going to get the Antec SLK3700BQE but that has a fixed hdd cage where the radiator would (now) go...

Also, where would the pump go? Just behind the fan/radiator?

Do you think a seasonic psu with a 120mm fan on the bottom would be good in this scenario? Perhaps it would remove the need for a case fan?

Lastly, i imagine that it would be beneficial to tape up all the holes in the front of the case except for those required by the radiator to force air intake through the radiator.. what do you think?

Cheers.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:31 am

Oooo and how about a pic?

This is my current setup, looks super sexie dosent it? Only thing is the case as you can see is quite embarrasing

Thats the only best pic i have atm :/ ill take some clearer pix soon.

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:34 am

Seal wrote:... These temps are full load temps, with a very silent setup oh yeah, and a VERY heavy overclock too! Sounds too good to be true!... must be the watercooling Definately reccomend it to anyone!

I've been to-and-fro between air-cooling and water-cooling for my next system, I "decided" (again) on air cooling a few days ago but changed my mind today back to water cooling. IMHO air cooling is reaching it's noise/cooling power limit.. kinda like cars, they used to be air-cooled, now they're water-cooled.

Seal: which case and water cooling system did you get? Are there any that you recommend? Also, do you have problems with 'priming' the water cooling system every time u start your computer to make sure that the water flow is adequate?

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:35 am

I am currently watercooling my Sonata (very similar internals to the BQE) and I have the radiator mounted to the rear fan exhaust, and the fan on top of that, blowing out (through the rad). It works OK now, but do you think it would work better if I turned the fan around and sucked air in through the rear grill and through the radiator?

My only concern there is then I will bypass my filtered intakes on the front of thse case, essentially making them "filtered exhausts"

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:08 am

Yeah i watercool because its getting to the point where its very hard to quietly and efficiently cool down a processor with air cooling, and it will never be as efficient as watercooling.

The watercooling system i got is kinda custom built myself, i got the radiator imported from america and is a D-tek customs chevy heatercore, the waterblock is a atlantis rev3 which isnt the best but is good, (maze3 and 4 are some of the best blocks u can get along with white water and cascade), pump wise, as im only watercooling my cpu i only need a eheim 1048, the smaller the pump, the less vibrations, pump vibrations are tthe main issue in the watercooling+silence thing.

And no, you do not get any problems with priming, the only time you have to prime is the first time you fill the system because there are air bubbles in the system, once that is done, even if you turn the pump off it will stay primed because all the pipes are filled with water and no air can get in.

I dont watercool my graphics card because i know that it isnt needed at the current stage. It will be more efficient cooling it passively with one of those sexie zalman things.

miker: sounds like a good setup, do you have any pics? I suppose the suck or blow thing depends, i would probably have air from the back of the case blowing into the case through the radiator as it will be cooler air. I dont think i would be able to set up my watercooled rig like that because the radiator is quite big.

Seal

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:14 am

Seal wrote:
miker: sounds like a good setup, do you have any pics? I suppose the suck or blow thing depends, i would probably have air from the back of the case blowing into the case through the radiator as it will be cooler air. I dont think i would be able to set up my watercooled rig like that because the radiator is quite big.

Seal

Yep your rad is several times bigger than mine. THe one I chose I did so hoping it would fit where I put it.

This pic is a little old, since have replaced the video card, and added a Swiftech GPU block. Also thinking I will pull the front 120mm fan.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:32 pm

looks good, very cramped though, wouldnt work for me as all of my stuff is bigger and im using 1/2" tubing too which is a lot less flexible than your 3/8" stuff (it is 3/8" isnt it?)

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:36 pm

Yep, 3/8" ID Tygon. Yeah, it's cramped alright. I don't really leave the side off, so I couldn't care less

I do intend to go back in and shorten the longer tubes. Some are just long cuase I was paranoid about filling it while in the case....

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:39 pm

miker wrote:My only concern there is then I will bypass my filtered intakes on the front of thse case, essentially making them "filtered exhausts"

It'll work great in winter warming you up with filtered air

Using the front as exhaust would not work so great, IMO, since hot air rises. And nowhere is this more evident than in politics, but I digress...

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:16 pm

yeah i think he ment put a fan blowing in at the front, its kinda a standard thing.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:14 pm

chylld:
Thanks a lot gooserider - you're post was very informative.

Youre welcome and thanks for the kind words...

Just a few questions - what case do you think is good for water cooling? I was going to get the Antec SLK3700BQE but that has a fixed hdd cage where the radiator would (now) go...

Well, I like BIG cases, so I'm using an AMS CK1100B 'server cube' style case. If you search you can find several threads where I talk about it's virtues, so I won't repeat myself here. I have a fairly heavy cooling load w/ dual AMD CPU's, multiple HDD's, etc, so I'm using a biggish rad (modified 2-342 heatercore) and a large pump (Iwaki MD20RT), this case gives me plenty of room for all the hardware.

In general, I would say that you will want a bigger case than you would use for an AC system, but I have also seen some nice setups using mini-towers, so it all depends on what you want and how much effort you are willing to spend on stuffing everything into the box. Essentially, you need to pick your WC components, particularly the pump, the radiator and the resevoir (if used - I reccomend it) and then figure out how big a case you need to fit it all in. Keep in mind that whatever you choose, putting in a WC setup is going to be a VERY heavy mod job. It isn't at all unusual to see drive cages being removed, just make sure there are enough left to mount your drives.

Also, where would the pump go? Just behind the fan/radiator?

That is fairly typical, but there are no hard and fast rules on component location. However there are a few guidelines:
1. Keep all hose runs as short as practical. Excess hose length adds friction, and cuts down on flow rates
2. Avoid bends as much as possible, if you must bend the hose, make the bend as gradual as possible. Bends restrict flow. (Note, in case of conflict between 1 and 2, more length is preferable to sharper bends.
3. The best flow pattern for the coolant is normally Pump => Rad => Block(s) => Res => Pump.
4. VERY CRITICAL - Make sure there is *NO* restriction on the intake side of the pump. This is a good reason to use a res, with as large and straight a feed between the res outlet and the pump inlet as possible. Restrictions on the pump intake increase the odds of cavitation, which will increase both noise and heat, while reducing coolant flow.

Do you think a seasonic psu with a 120mm fan on the bottom would be good in this scenario? Perhaps it would remove the need for a case fan?

Depends on how much volume and static pressure the PSU fan can pull. I suspect it wouldn't be quite enough on it's own. Despite their appearance (I can SEE through my core at some angles), radiators are quite airflow restrictive. You will generally need a fan that can pull a high static pressure (Usually a 1.5" / 38mm thick unit) so look at the PQ curves on any fan you are considering. I would probably put at least one fan on the suction side of the rad, and let the PSU fan just deal with getting the air back out of the exhaust side of the case.

Lastly, i imagine that it would be beneficial to tape up all the holes in the front of the case except for those required by the radiator to force air intake through the radiator.. what do you think?

Yes, especially if you aren't mounting the fan on a duct (One of the reasons I reccomend a duct, it reduces the problem of air bypass) The rad will offer enough restriction that you will get significant airflow through any other holes, which is bad for your cooling. If you have a ducted fan sucking in through the rad, with the flows balanced to make the case slightly positively pressured, then sealing the rest of the case is less critical.
=============================================

Seal
Oooo and how about a pic?

Looks pretty good, assuming that the upper branch on the "T" fitting is a fill point / bubble trap? (It's hard to tell from the pix) The only problem that I could see is that 90* bend at the "T" fitting - that is very restrictive.

IMHO you would have been slightly better to have made a smoother curve with the main flow going straight through the T, and the branch going to the fill point. (A res might be better still, but that would be harder to add)

Otherwise looks like a good example of a simple, single block system. The lines are reasonably short, with no extreme bends and a nice clean flow path.
========================

miker:
I am currently watercooling my Sonata (very similar internals to the BQE) and I have the radiator mounted to the rear fan exhaust, and the fan on top of that, blowing out (through the rad). It works OK now, but do you think it would work better if I turned the fan around and sucked air in through the rear grill and through the radiator?

Not really... As I understand it you are currently blowing slightly warmed case air through the rad. This isn't optimal, but it will work. Reversing the fan would give slightly better cooling in theory, but in practice would probably cause more problems due to the weird resulting airflow than you would gain in benefit.

While there is a definite advantage to sucking over blowing, it isn't a big difference, so I would say not to mess with a working setup.

Looking at your pix, I don't see any major problems aside from excess hose length, and possibly some extra bends because of the length...

Gooserider

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:40 am

Gooserider wrote:
Seal
Oooo and how about a pic?
Looks pretty good, assuming that the upper branch on the "T" fitting is a fill point / bubble trap? (It's hard to tell from the pix) The only problem that I could see is that 90* bend at the "T" fitting - that is very restrictive.

IMHO you would have been slightly better to have made a smoother curve with the main flow going straight through the T, and the branch going to the fill point. (A res might be better still, but that would be harder to add)

Otherwise looks like a good example of a simple, single block system. The lines are reasonably short, with no extreme bends and a nice clean flow path.

Yeah alot of what you say is very true but is quite excessive from what my experience from watercooling tells me. alot of those requirements are for an "ideal" setup for MAXIMUM cooling and are only strictly followed by only the very hardcore watercoolers, actually... thinking about it, i dont think ive ever seen a system that fills every single requirement that youve listed.

Point 4 that u made about putting a res in i dont think is that true, cavitation never happens in a watercooling setup and is unheared of, the walls of the pipes are always very thick and never "cavitate". Having a res IMO is a bit of a waste of space as i dont believe its needed and a huge waste of space from my experience. I cant really think of many advantages of having a res apart from the fact you'll have to top up a little less and first time bleeding would be a little quicker. Otherwise there are IMO more disadvantages than advantages, the main one being the often huge space it takes up. The only scenario i could imagine cavitation happening is if you have a hugely powerful pump with a hugely restrictive waterblock and weak pipes. As a member of SPCR i dont think you guys will buy the hugest pumps because of noise/vibrations.

Out of your main guidlines i have probably only fulfilled one out of the many listed there: keep hoses short. All the others i have pretty much defied yet my temperatures are very good for watercooling temperatures:

(Full Load)
Ambient: 23 C
Cpu: 42 C
Radiator: 30 C
Case: 36 C

Thats with my quiet setup and the radiator fan on 4v. If its on full i'd get temps that looked more like.

Ambient: 23 C
No Load Cpu: 29-30 C
Full load Cpu: 34 C

I think although the points you make are important considerations, i think i just want to say that theyre not all that essential to follow down to the last point so if your considering watercooling then try different configs, and dont go out buying things like a reservoir unless you need it, it was a waste time and money for me, try without first and if you really insist on having one because your setup just isnt working then do go and buy one.

I get more then good temperatures with the setup i have, but ive focised my setup more on neatness and ease of service/use more then the bets tmperatues yet they are still very good.

Seal

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:41 am

p.s. watercooling is brill, defo reccomend it to anyone seaking silence!.. or coolness....

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:06 pm

Seal wrote:p.s. watercooling is brill, defo reccomend it to anyone seaking silence!.. or coolness....

"brill"?

here's all I could find in my Funk and Wagnells:

"Main Entry: brill
Pronunciation: 'bril
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural brill
Etymology: Middle English brell
Date: 15th century
: a European flatfish (Scophthalmus rhombus syn. Bothus rhombus of the family Bothidae); broadly : TURBOT"

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:19 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:"brill"?

here's all I could find in my Funk and Wagnells: a European flatfish

*sigh* Americans

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brill

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:51 pm

lenny / Location: San Francisco, California wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:"brill"?

here's all I could find in my Funk and Wagnells: a European flatfish
*sigh* Americans

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brill

*SIGH* Americans.

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:59 pm

miker: i see you have an asetek waterchill system - I'm about to buy one but i'm planning on fitting it to an abit nf7-s instead of an asus a7n8x (because it's cheaper) - however i heard that the standard cpu waterblock (like the one in your pictures above) won't fit on an nf7-s, and a different mounting frame / clear top thing is needed? i read that this alternate mounting part (for socket A only) is included in the system, is that true?

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:34 am

chylld wrote:
lenny / Location: San Francisco, California wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:"brill"?

here's all I could find in my Funk and Wagnells: a European flatfish
*sigh* Americans

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brill
*SIGH* Americans.

rofl *BIG SIGH* Americans

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:03 am

have you actually bought that 3700bqe yet Seal?

I decided today I'm going to go with a 3700bqe + asetek waterchill combo, with the radiator mounted at the back (on the inside, where the stock 120mm is) - i'm not too fussy about getting the most perfect setup.

Then again, i'll probably "decide" on something else in a few days

RikA · Post by **RikA** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:32 am

Seal,

if you do buy the BQE, please let me know where from!! I can't find anywhere that sells them in the UK yet.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:21 am

Seal wrote:
chylld wrote:
lenny / Location: San Francisco, California wrote: *sigh* Americans

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brill
*SIGH* Americans.
rofl *BIG SIGH* Americans

Sounds a little xenophobic there boys.

All I did was ask for the definition because I didn't know what it meant, had never heard it used that way and couldn't find it in the couple of online dictionaries I tried.

I guess I'll have to go back to school and bone up a little more on the Queen's English. It's sure embarrassing being saddled with my limited American vocabulary.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:19 am

indeed ralf ehehe

Rika - nope i cant find it anywhere

gutted!!!! im just gonna wiat for it , the antec sonata is out in a few places in the uk but im not sure with it, i prefer the 3700bqe. Its mostly because of the holes in the side of the case really, no other reason.

miker · Post by **miker** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:35 am

chylld wrote:miker: i see you have an asetek waterchill system - I'm about to buy one but i'm planning on fitting it to an abit nf7-s instead of an asus a7n8x (because it's cheaper) - however i heard that the standard cpu waterblock (like the one in your pictures above) won't fit on an nf7-s, and a different mounting frame / clear top thing is needed? i read that this alternate mounting part (for socket A only) is included in the system, is that true?

I heard that as well. My system was "pre-mod". I just bevelled the edge of one of the P4 hold downs a bit with a dremel and I was fine. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Lots of people have put the Waterchill on the NF7-S.

You may also want to check the Asetek forums. Lots o Waterchill talk over there.

RikA · Post by **RikA** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:03 pm

Seal wrote: Rika - nope i cant find it anywhere gutted!!!! im just gonna wiat for it , the antec sonata is out in a few places in the uk but im not sure with it, i prefer the 3700bqe. Its mostly because of the holes in the side of the case really, no other reason.

I am in the same boat. The sonata would do, but I would much prefer the BQE. As I said, If you see it available anywhere - please post here! I will keep my eyes out and do likewise.
Antec have told me they are planning to release the BQE in the UK "in about two weeks" (though that was a week ago!). However, all the e-tailers I've contacted won't give me a firm date or even confirm they will be stocking it.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:24 pm

RikA wrote:The sonata would do, but I would much prefer the BQE.

Yeah same! Same things happening with me and the new hard drives i wanna get, i wanna get 2 160gb samsung S-ATA HD's (for raid 0),theyve been released in america and a few places in europe but not england yet! Sucks big time, how come the rest of europe +america get loads o cool stuff but we geet it like last!?

As for watercooling, what temps do you get miker? is your setup quiet?