Folding and heat...

orionlion82 · Post by **orionlion82** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:32 pm

New to folding, but i drop in on SPCR every now and then, and i am considering joining the team here, but i have ISSUES with this folding stuff.
ive got a P4 2.8 with HT, and that means it is a dually, (allmost) now ive found that with the GUI i can easily scale how hungry it gets, and my machine is happiest if i assign it to one processor, and let it have the whole thing (the virtual processor, cpu 1) my only issue is that i overheat and reboot within 5 minuets if i dont max out the fans (all 12, yeah, i know i know search for my handle to learn more, ive updated). im hoping someday to get into the text client, in which i would there would be a folding free for all on both processors, but untill i find a solution about the heat i cant go there. i am currently folding with the GUI and it has the whole virtual cpu to itself, and (i know how to cut it back, but that seems counter productive)
im running at 45C with maxed out fans and my little window ac set on "cube" ... do you smell that?
how do people fold and contend with the heat issues of one or two processors constantly pegged at 100%? im thinking stock cooling on the CPU is not enough...i would hate to see what happens when i OC to 20% (which is about 60% of the time) but alas, this is SPCR and i bet stock cooling is a rarity...

isp · Post by **isp** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:06 pm

I use some pretty hefty cooling on most of my personal machines..

thermalright copper heatsinks + like a 92mm 56cfm fan @ like 35dB

It's not silent but it really doesn't bother me...

calam63 · Post by **calam63** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:08 pm

if your computer is crashing - the problem may not stem from heat - it may be a memory problem - have you tried running memtest86 or prime95?

unregistered · Post by **unregistered** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:59 pm

this is SPCR and i bet stock cooling is a rarity

Not even rare, stock cooling is not QUIET.

Do the "free" things first. download MBM5 or SpeedFan to monitor your temps. Run MemTest. Undervolting while overclocking is possible with the right MB(general forum sticky). Check out the other SPCR forums (the search feature on this board SUX imho, but it works) If you can't find a solution you ain't tryin.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:14 pm

This is definately not a heat related problem, unless your heatsink is not properly connected to your CPU.

I have two instances of folding running on a P4 3.0 Prescott. That CPU is cooled by a Zalman 7000-AlCu. With speedfan the fan is set to 50% and the CPU temp hoovers around 58°C with a room ambient of 22°C. Now the Zalman 7000-AlCu is better than the stock CPU Heatsink, but not that much.

ive got a P4 2.8 with HT, and that means it is a dually, (allmost)

I don't know which fast talking salesman told you this, but HT doesn't come near the power of a dual system. In the best case it gives you an improvement of 40%. When folding Tinkers you get an improvement of aprox. 35%. When folding Gromacs or Double Gromacs you get an improvement of aprox. 13%. But ONLY if you run TWO clients.

orionlion82 · Post by **orionlion82** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:28 pm

58 C?!? i get nasty unstable around 50 or 53 even when i dont OC... stock cooling, unpolished heatsink, stock heat sink sticky, sure theres issues there, im sure i will someday work on, its been shipped cross country 3 times so it wouldnt suprise me if things got a bit loose, but i imagine they would re-gum after a good hot run..., the comment about HT was misinterperated, i know it is a virtual processor, but i wasnt aware that 1+1 =1.3 or so, thought it was meant to simulate a dually in that respect...good to know...once i get more comfortable with folding ill run two text clients, i tried out a text along with a gui, and configuring the text one was a bit over my head for now (and for lack of reasearch, i admit), someday ill pony up some $ for copper cooling and the like, but as it gets shipped cross country frequently (college student) having the copper get loose is a scary thought. i think ill do some polishing on the stock one this weekend, and gum it down with that silver stuff., im sure its better than that sticky pad...
ive allso got the cheap power supply blues, and i know that can really make things bad, but last night i dug out an old 200W from my basement, and im using it to take the fan loads, and other molex, it helps alot (still low on the 12V side,11.67) but at 700 watts combined, and hard wired fans its getting a bit absurd just trying to stay cool and have enough power...the electrician today said to me "man look at that! you talk to hong kong with that thing or what?"
..... how i dream of silence...

calam63 · Post by **calam63** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:11 pm

my athlon 64 overclocked and fans undervolted runs at full load at about 50c and that is with a room at about 80-85 F

the unstableness i bet is either not updated chipset drivers - or something wrong with the setup - how do you do with prime95 or memtest86?

orionlion82 · Post by **orionlion82** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:57 pm

im about to track down prime95...chipset drivers? hmmm...(ala the douglas adams "yellow" bit) i repeat hmmm.... i have the asus disk with them...updates? hmmm.... asus.com->download???
EDIT: downloading it now, if this fixes all my problems, ill look stupid, but at least ill have a hero, heh... its allways the little simple things that get you, after you spend 2 weeks...i hope its not like that... many thanks.

calam63 · Post by **calam63** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:05 pm

prime95 there http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm - its a computer stress tester - if you can't run it for many hours free of errors- means something is going on with your hardware

chipset drivers - pending on what board and chipset you have - you can find them at alot of places - my asus board has a via chipset - via has drivers at www.viaarena.com - but asus.com should have your drivers after you search for your mobo and then open up downloads

dasman · Post by **dasman** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:59 am

I've got a P4 3.06 running 2 instances 24/7 -- ambient temps 25c to 30c. Using a Thermalright SP94 (never, ever use stock HSF anymore, crappy cooling and way too loud) w/ a Panaflo M1a-bx @ 50% to 60% (varied by speedfan), I get CPU temps pegged at 54c (on an Asus board, I'm told they read about 8c low so that means I'm really running @ 62c) and am rock stable.

Now, this is with JosephClemente's excellent CPU duct(took about 30minutes to put together) -- at idle, CPU temps are 30c (again, Asus add 8c for 38c) -- lower temps than both the chassis and HD.

If you're unstable at 50c, then something else is going on or your MB doesn't correctly read the temps (a common problem).

I'm a little curious about the PSU, you sure it's not the issue? I'm pretty sure that as PSU's heat up that they can no longer deliver the rated power -- especially cheap PSU's (ie., they're rated something like 300w @ 40c). With 12fans and loading the CPU, maybe you've maxed the PSU -- especially if you say adding a 2nd PSU for fans has helped things somewhat. I don't know what kind of case/airflow you have, but (as a test) why don't you try running @ stock with just the CPU HSF and 1-2 exhaust fans and see what happens. You really can't burn your P4 as it's internal thermal protection will kick in if it gets too hot.

Once you figure out your stability issue, then go back to the OC...

Dave

orionlion82 · Post by **orionlion82** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:12 pm

yes, im allmost sure thats the problem, Dasman...
i have a bottom of the barrel 500W ish power supply, with blue light up fans, and it seems to be all show and no go, as i am a function over form kind of guy, i think the lights and lexan trends now emerging are goofy, if not tacky. actually i just finished a big case mod today, i blacked out the lexan from the inside, and blacked out the red aluminum and TT decal, (and blacked out and removed light up TT sign) improved blowhole through lexan, and painted flourescent orange fan black (removed fangaurd, mind your fingers) looks slick and elegant now. its a (brace yourself) thermaltake xaser 3...EDIT: really bad airflow in there, suprisingly...a little better after the MOD
EDIT: i had all this time to MOD today because i woke up this morning and the whole rig was off, and i usually play a bit of music softly all night. i could not get it to post,, and the monitors remained in yellow light mode. i tried to flash from the MB disc, no luck, pulled battery, cleared with jumper, no luck, tried flashing again, and restarted a few times... finished painting, cleaned the gutters, swept the sidewalk, came backreassembled everything, powered on just for the heck of it, and POOF, bios wants me to set the time! i guess she just wanted a paint job...)
im getting a new power supply shortly, im torn between the PC Power and cooling 510 deluxe, and the Antec True control 550, im leaning tword the true control, but i know that the PC P&C is higher quality, (and about 2x more $$, but it is the tried and true auto fan setup and im not sure i want that for when i configure for quiet) its a pretty tough choice, i allmost cant make it on my own... but , this weekend im going to lap the HS and put a little silver on it, and that should buy me 1or2 degrees C....(cant afford any more mods right now if im getting a PSU in a few days...) thank you greatly, i think im on the right track...

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:29 pm

orionlion82 wrote:im getting a new power supply shortly, im torn between the PC Power and cooling 510 deluxe, and the Antec True control 550....(cant afford any more mods right now if im getting a PSU in a few days...)

Why drop all that cash on a huge PSU? A smaller, high quality PSU will probably be more than sufficient for your needs. You can check past posts to see what people are running with a 300W power supply. Mine powers a P4 2.66 with Radeon 9800 Pro and 1 GB of memory, 1 DVD burner, 1 Maxtor.

orionlion82 · Post by **orionlion82** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:06 pm

at first it seems you are right, but i run 2 optical drives, 2 graphics cards, a zip 250, a floppy, 2gb of ram, 12 fans, P4 2.8 and i either rig quiet at 1.4, about 20% of the time i run stock at 2.8 about 20% of the time, or i OC at 20% at 3.4, 60% of the time (sure i value the quiet time, or i would not be around these parts,) but i do lots of cad, photo edit, audio edit, video edit type stuff (art student, theatere technician)... i mean even though im probably getting a true output of about 400W or maybe less, i have plans in august for a new HD, and i would feel a bit more secure with a bit of "cushion", and i have a hard time believeing that PSU's that most run on SPCR can meet my needs ... i would love to run a more standard PSU that is more quiet, but i cant fathom it would be any better than what ive got. i usually IDLE at minus 12 to minus 15% on all rails, (except vcore, which is rock solid)
overclocking is a miracle, especially because i actually run cooler than stock configuration...i just figure the increase in capacity makes the load seem smaller,(like small car pulling a big boat, versus a semi ) but its still weird... and seems wrong, maybe nothing gets enough power to make heat up that high? welcome to my little twilight zone... ill be joining the folding team momentarily, and will allso consider starting one at college in the fall...

orionlion82 · Post by **orionlion82** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:52 am

the beast runs! i did the chipset driver, and ive been at full load for 3 hours stock config, fans manually low, at 54C, rock solid. even went back to 1 PSU, with stable voltages!
it seems all of my battles have ended with a chipset driver update. the one detail i overlooked, while i looked over everything else 5 times a day...may not need that new PSU after all...thank you ! oh , man, great big thank you!!

calam63 wrote:my athlon 64 overclocked and fans undervolted runs at full load at about 50c and that is with a room at about 80-85 F

the unstableness i bet is either not updated chipset drivers - or something wrong with the setup - how do you do with prime95 or memtest86?

dasman · Post by **dasman** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:04 pm

orionlion82 wrote:the beast runs!

Great to hear! Now all you need to do is some mods to get rid of a bunch of those fans

12 is just a little much

Also, if you really look at what you're running, I'll bet you can do a much smaller PSU -- especially with, say, only 6 fans (still a bunch).

I ran that system I linked to in the gallery with only a 300w PSU, and had around 100w to spare (based on kil-a-watt). Ran with only HSF, exhaust fan and PSU fan, much lower temps, quieter system and more powerful. Folded 24/7 as well as CAD and engineering work in the evenings.

Just a suggestion, but rather than spend a bunch of time and energy on modding the case you've got (especially since it seems like you don't care for it anyway), why not get a case you like that has good airflow? Eliminate a bunch of fans (I know, I know -- broken record

) and end up with better temps and a quieter system. You can get a good cheap without a PSU (or even with a PSU)...

Dave

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:18 pm

Eh, glad you solved your crash problems but while you're here, how about rethinking your system? I mean, 12 fans???? Where do you have them all? 7 on the case, 1 for the PSU, 2 for the gfx cards, 1 for the CPU, that makes 11 fans???

I mean, you really should be able to cool your rig much more quietly?

I love this bit from the thermaltake site:

80*80*25mm silent fan, 30dBA, Front*2, rear*2, side*1, top*1

I ran a system with a overclocked palomino (70W from that alone), an overclocked Radeon 9700, two drives (one of them a VERY noisy Maxtor), two optical drives, scsi card, modem, an extra NIC, all on a cheapo but quality 300W fortron PSU.

You should be able to cut down your fans to 6, change them all to lower flow quieter fans and still get adequate cooling.

orionlion82 · Post by **orionlion82** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:45 am

well, when i first set out do design my first build,(search for "westminster project") i heard the "cooler is better" argument, and i thought "gee, 7 fans, says theyre quiet, i bet i can start an ice farm with one of those, and its big too" its a full headcount really, 7 case fans, 2 PSU fans, 1 CPU fan, 1 90mm "circulator/stirrer" type thing... all mounted to stock TT fan control, (exception being CPU fan, and ive found "asus q fan" in the bios heeps it muffled unless im at 55C or over...) drop in pci slot cooler for the VGA, (i think its an antec, noisy bugger, rattles like crazy cause of TT's plastic PCI clip... ive been spending an hour or two a day on airflow mods, removing the grilles mainly (a real hack job with only a leatherman) i think i can better the air flow, and not have to crank the fans as much, stay cooler and quieter... im kinda glued to the case for now, as i have put alot of work into it (if i only knew how to post pictures around here... no word on that in the gallerie...) and i like the roominess of a full size case, so much easier to work on...... thats not to say i wouldnt love a mid-case with 2 120's and a proper PSU ...hardware aside, this folding is pretty erratic, sometimes i can fold at 100% and have no heat problem, others i get slammed with heat. i tried going back to the GUI, but it turns out i still have 3 consoles running even after i deleted it all (was up to 12 cores at one point dont know how). i dumped the gui again, and still, somehow, somewhere, ive got a core running, and i can kill it, but its back in 5 minuets, cant find it,, even with a windows search... no uninstaller in ctrl pnl, and its getting spooky! i want out of the folding untill i can really get things under control,(i thought things were good about 5 times. i can prime95 for hours on end just fine) but the machine has other ideas...i think it has to do with the stealthy console service thing i tried to get into...but then dropped lke a hot heatsink...

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:17 am

I just wanted to comment about the temperatures and stability. I have several CPUs, had even more CPUs and every run flawlessly over 75C. Mostly even more (particulary P3 to 82C and VIA C3 to 95+C).

Hight temps can't be a issue. AXP are fine to 85C.

P4 thermal diode trigger on 135C

(and it's still safe + there has to be a safety margin (so the CPU can take more, I quess like 150C) and the diode are in the colder (-10-15C) part of the CPU, so...)

shathal · Post by **shathal** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:46 pm

135 degrees C?

For thermal throttling?

No way. Closer to 80-90 degrees C. 135 ...? Where the heck did you get THAT figure from?

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:43 am

shantal - Intel spec sheets

Thermal diode SAFELY shut down the P4 when it hit 135C. I was amazed too, you are not alone who wonder and lookign shocked, but that is the truth.
My temp now are 63C and one of my lazy folders are at 71C and another at 74C. Working for months like it. No stability problems. I quess that 135C is not that high now...

(even it sounds OVERKILL

)

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:38 am

If you look on pages 65 and 70 of this PDF document from intel, then you can see that termal throttling is triggered by another termal sensor as the on die thermal diode. The last one is known to be at the edge of the chip. I have never found a document stating where the other sensor is located. But if it is closer to the hottest point of the processor, then you might both be right.

P.S. Trodas where did you get those temps. I can't find them on the Intel site.

Folding and heat...

Folding and heat...

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