Yet another audiophile thread

[aristide1]

aristide1, you mix everything, including known, possible and unlikely factors. And you feel obsessed that many people find some "audiophile dogmas" laughable.

Question first, you can always dismiss later. First question - Those ceramic insulators they sell don't raise cables 8 inches off the ground, they do or don't work?

Don't.

Scientifically eliminated or otherwise?

[Arvo]

Eliminated by My Humble Opinion only

From what I know I can't see, how lifting insulated low voltage power cables on isolators can alter cable electrical parameters for audio frequencies (say up to 100kHz). If you can provide some background information (link), I'm well ready to discuss.

[aristide1]

Eliminated by My Humble Opinion only

From what I know I can't see, how lifting insulated low voltage power cables on isolators can alter cable electrical parameters for audio frequencies (say up to 100kHz). If you can provide some background information (link), I'm well ready to discuss.

I'm sure you're much more educated than me on such matters. Static electricity, residual magnetism, etc, all beyond my conversation abilities outside of I've heard of them and have seen what they do, but beyond that I have nothing to offer.

I doubt Shatki Stones, aren't they simply ebony wood? VPI bricks on the other hand may have bent magnetic fields (again not saying for better or worse). Then there's ByBee filters.

Scientifically if I had a couple of wishes, say 3 of them.
1. I would want to be able to see sound for a day, to see how it interacts, moves about, but obviously some ancient Greeks had a good idea, though I am not one of them (ancient or with a good idea).
2. I'd like to see how electricity moves about through circuitry and how metalurgy affects it. Of course magnetic fields need to be present as well.
3. I'd like to see air and fuel flowing through an internal combustion engine.

[Arvo]

I'm sure you're much more educated than me on such matters. Static electricity, residual magnetism, etc, all beyond my conversation abilities outside of I've heard of them and have seen what they do, but beyond that I have nothing to offer.

Putting education aside, you have something valuable to offer - real life experience.

If you can personally hear sound difference using lifted cables, then it is probably true. If I can't see cause of such phenomenon, then I have to broaden my mind, search for possible explanations and so on.

If some experiment contradicts to [physical] theory, then there are generally two possibilities:
1. experiment results are incorrect
2. theory is limited or incorrect
It would be wrong blindly assume that experiment is failed, although it is tempting to. Better is to search for better theories to adequately describe experimental results.

What about lifting cables, I did find one possible explanation already
Pure electromechanical feedback - lifted cables may start resonate in sound waves; if there's some (presumably static, but not necessary) magnetical field present, then that will cause some additional current in cables.

And remark about older question - sound on hot muggy day - speed of sound increases with temperature and humidity. Probably your perfectly aligned speakers do not like faster speeds

Some interesting calculators: http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/ca ... res_en.htm

Interesting, from all this discussion seems that non-electrical factors are far more important than electrical. What could be expected anyway Does that make technophiles worry?

Maybe these are not weird audiophile widgets, what make us laugh - maybe we can't just stand idiotic PR claims, why and how these widgets work.

[aristide1]

I've read a lot of absolute phase, I never could hear in my system, even when I had the much desired switch. Many engineers used to be skeptical of it as well. One day during a medical test where they were conducting an exam to see the nerves from my ears to my brain was OK then put some headphones on me and fed me square waves while monitoring brain function. It sounded like someone beating eggs in a soup dish. Then it moved. That was odd, the location of the sound shifted. It kept going, yeah ok. When the test was over I asked him what he did, what change did he make? He looked puzzled. I expanded, "You changed the sound in some way, how was it changed?" He thought I was nuts. All of a sudden he says "The phase! I changed the phase of the square wave." I said "Oh, OK." He said "Nobody has ever mentioned that before." He looked amazed. I was amazed in such a way "Gee, how could you miss it?" But try as I could, I couldn't hear any difference in music when I did such phase changes, I suspect there's too much going on for me to notice, but under one extreme condition it did come through.

Then he said the news was good, I did not have "dain bramage" (quote from an HBO comedy special). I was less than happy actually, for what he also said was there's nothing I can do to help you. There's 2 ways to look at almost anything.

[aristide1]

I can't say I hear the difference lifting cables off the carpet. But the questions still remain:

1. Because my system was not resolving enough to show such a small change?

2. Because the fact that my carpet is filled with static drain fibers (small wires?) offsets the effect?

3. Because my hearing is not what it used to be?

4. Because there simply isn't any change there?

[Arvo]

Most probably 4th, but possible (although unlikely) 1st too.

[N7SC]

And remark about older question - sound on hot muggy day - speed of sound increases with temperature and humidity. Probably your perfectly aligned speakers do not like faster speeds

Increased temperature and increased humidity actually decrease the density of air, all else being equal, therefore they should decrease the speed of sound, should they not?

I am sure about the decrease in density of air with increased humidity and temperature, as I hold a commercial pilot license, and that stuff was drilled into our heads. It is critical in calculating take-off performance, available power from engines (decreases, at a constant altitude, with increasing humidity and temp.), etc.

[Arvo]

http://www.school-for-champions.com/sci ... ed_gas.htm

[N7SC]

Okay, I never said that increased temp and humidity would decrease the speed of sound in air. I did say, and can back up, that it does decrease the density of air, and I thought, therefore, that lower density would slow the transmission of sound in air - I think it does in other, admittedly non-gaseous, media.

There must be other things going on in gasses, besides just the change in density. But what? Some influence from the increased Brownian motion of the air molecules with higher temperature?

[VanWaGuy]

Might be in his head too. Hot muggy weather might affect the way his ear is picking up the sound. might be affecting capacitors, transistors. There are certainly components that temp and humidity are going to affect, but you would be hard pressed to measure any change in the behavior of a wire.

[neon joe]

What about lifting cables, I did find one possible explanation already
Pure electromechanical feedback - lifted cables may start resonate in sound waves; if there's some (presumably static, but not necessary) magnetical field present, then that will cause some additional current in cables.

A static magnetic field cannot induce a current - only a changing magnetic field does this.

Of course, the carpet may have a non-zero electric field, which could possibly affect the signal. However, I would expect any carpet to have a nearly zero electric field, therefore the electrons in the cable aren't going to be significantly affected.

[aristide1]

Might be in his head too. Hot muggy weather might affect the way his ear is picking up the sound. might be affecting capacitors, transistors. There are certainly components that temp and humidity are going to affect, but you would be hard pressed to measure any change in the behavior of a wire.

I didn't mean to narrow it down, yes just about everything doesn't sound quite right. I gues you could say that's in my head. At least we know it's somewhere.

[Arvo]

What about lifting cables, I did find one possible explanation already
Pure electromechanical feedback - lifted cables may start resonate in sound waves; if there's some (presumably static, but not necessary) magnetical field present, then that will cause some additional current in cables.

A static magnetic field cannot induce a current - only a changing magnetic field does this.

By "static" I meant just "not changing over time", like stationar magnets or similar. Moving cable to location, where field is weaker, is equal to decreasing field intensity.
If magnetix flux changes in closed loop (cable), then this generates EMF (and current).
Well, if cable is made from twisted pair(s) of wires then it is almost resistant to changing magnetic fields anyway...

[neon joe]

By "static" I meant just "not changing over time", like stationar magnets or similar. Moving cable to location, where field is weaker, is equal to decreasing field intensity.
If magnetix flux changes in closed loop (cable), then this generates EMF (and current).

Correct, but the flux would only change as you were moving the wire. A single current-carrying wire in a static magnetic field will experience a force that's perpendicular to the direction of the current, and perpendicular to the magnetic field (Lorentz Force). With two wires that have opposite currents (like speaker wire), the force is equal and opposite. This force won't change the current, however.

Since the cable itself isn't moving, and the magnetic field isn't changing, no EMF is generated.

Well, if cable is made from twisted pair(s) of wires then it is almost resistant to changing magnetic fields anyway...

Right, since the wires are next to each other, any EMF generated in one wire will have the same EMF generated in the other, effectively canceling the effect at each end of the wires.

[Arvo]

Since the cable itself isn't moving, and the magnetic field isn't changing, no EMF is generated.

I stated that lifted cable may start moving (resonating) within sound field

I agree that any such effects are very small, probably below any measurement level. But I couldn't think of any other causes, how lifting cables may alter sound...

[VanWaGuy]

Arvo,

The only cause I could think of would be psychological. Our perception is not nearly as objective as we would like to think that it is. The audiophiles equivalent of a placebo.

Look back at the beginning of this thread:
Triad Cable Lifts
Laying speaker cables, interconnects and AC powercords on an artificial fiber carpet will immediately dull the sound of your stereo. And that’s true for all makes and models, not just our Clearview wires. Unfortunately, the carpet is a huge mass of low quality insulation (dielectric). It absorbs and smears energy from the field around the wire. The effect is pretty grim, making music sound both dulled and harsh. A simple ear-tested solution is to raise the cables off the carpet by at least 8 inches. That’s exactly what our good-looking maple Triad (designed by Marcia Bauman) does

Well, lifting the cable from a low quality insulator, carpet into the air, another low quality insulator, or putting them next to the wall, another low quality insulator, and OMG it's hopeless, there are low quality insulators everywhere!

It is obvious that it is not the fact that the carpet is an insulator. And then the statement about absorbing and smearing the energy. Well, if it is an insulator as they just said, how is it going to do that? Carpet will do that with sound, and they are just playing with the naive with statements like that.

Heavy duty lampcord worked for old man klipsch who designed my speakers and spent most of his life doing that, and the same wire casually routed around the room on the carpet works for me. I'm not going to spend big $$ for some phantom improvement that may or may not exist, but even if it did would be so far down into diminishing returns on audio investment to make it nonsensical. (And, by the time I can afford a system that maybe could tell the difference, I will be too old to hear the difference anyway.)

[neon joe]

Well, lifting the cable from a low quality insulator, carpet into the air, another low quality insulator, or putting them next to the wall, another low quality insulator, and OMG it's hopeless, there are low quality insulators everywhere!

lol, this is exactly what my wife said when I showed her the cable lifts

[fshagan]

I'm not a very discerning consumer of sound, I guess. Those Bose systems have always sounded horrible to me ... then I find forums full of audiophiles who agree with me. Turns out I'm a genius. Until I question certain speaker combinations, etc.

Our perceptions color everything we do, which is why trained observers take great pains to conduct double blind studies of these things. While not quite a double blind study, I'd like to see some more research along these lines:

We've always believed that the perceived quality boost that comes from using high-end cables is really just a trick of the mind (read: justifying the ridiculous cost of premium cables to yourself) -- if you've dropped enough cash, you can probably hear anything you want. Still, our belief is one thing -- cold hard proof is another, and it looks like a group of 12 self-professed "audiophiles" recently couldn't tell the difference between Monster 1000 speaker cables and plain old coat hangers. Yeah, coat hangers. The group was A-Bing different cables, and unbeknownst to them, the engineer running the test swapped out a set of cables for coat hangers with soldered-on speaker connections. Not a single one was then able to tell the difference between the Monster Cable and the hangers, and all agreed that the hangers sounded excellent.

From Engadget

Note: the rest of that story contains a statement later retracted regarding Monster Cable and a sleight of hand display ... it was actually the store's doing, not the Monster Cable company.

[DanceMan]

To get back to the spirit of the OP:

Rodrigues cartoon from long ago. A customer is standing in front of a tube amp in a stereo shop. The amp has a sign saying " 50 watts per channel, $1250." Customer asks the salesman, "That's nice, but do have anything with less power and a much higher price?"

Regarding Bose: Heard from professional soundmen, "No highs, no lows, it's Bose."

[Solid Snake]

How would someone who spent $1K on a power cord, feel after they realize it connects to hundreds of feet of plain old home depot mains wiring in their wall? They SHOULD feel like a jackass.

Temperature extremes DO have an effect on sound though. During the coldest winter days of the year, there was next to no bass in my car. The rubber surrounds of the sub and the mids really stiffen up at 10F. I use a different EQ setting for this until the car warms up.

[aristide1]

How would someone who spent $1K on a power cord, feel after they realize it connects to hundreds of feet of plain old home depot mains wiring in their wall? They SHOULD feel like a jackass.

Temperature extremes DO have an effect on sound though. During the coldest winter days of the year, there was next to no bass in my car. The rubber surrounds of the sub and the mids really stiffen up at 10F. I use a different EQ setting for this until the car warms up.

While it is true that a chain is as strong as it's weakest link you can update the component that is not the weakest and still gain something.

If the $1K power cord acts like a power conditioner with much higher capitance or ferrite cores it can do it's thing along with the stock home wiring. But your issue has been addressed by some, including changing the mains coming into the house from the pole from aluminum to copper.