The Moon-Shine of Gasoline....

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mr. poopyhead
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Post by mr. poopyhead » Wed May 14, 2008 9:32 pm

europeans have been forced to be efficient for a long time now. look at their cities... well planned, good transit, small cars.
it's finally time for north americans too feel the pinch of resource scarcity. are we going to sit around and bitch about it and continue on in our ways, applying band-aid solutions until it's too late? or are we going to make real significant lifestyle changes to cope with the realities of a non-renewable (or SLOWLY renewing) resource?

only time will tell...
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Post by Bluefront » Thu May 15, 2008 12:56 am

I suspect many Europeans just do not realize the "big" problem we are facing.....that's the problem, big. People have built homes 30 miles outside town, and sometimes drive 40 miles to get to work. No buses or trains go that way. Bicycle the route daily.....impossible for most. Drive a moped? Possible, but dangerous on the highways, very dangerous. Our country is built around an inter-state highway system designed for fast-moving motor-vehicles......that's the way it is.

We need motor-fuel that we can afford......and it's there for the use, if we can get around the finger-pointers and the tree-huggers. The price of every aspect of living in the USA is being affected, from just getting around, from buying a computer part at the local store, to buying food to eat. Just what good would it do to bicycle to the food mart, only to find the food costs, too high to afford?

Moonshine motor-fuel for your moped won't lower the cost of the food on your table. :(
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Post by jaganath » Thu May 15, 2008 1:39 am

europeans have been forced to be efficient for a long time now. look at their cities... well planned, good transit, small cars.
not all european cities are such havens of good transport policy. London, for example, is a nightmre. but generally in France, Germany, the Nordic countries, public transport is safe, reliable and affordable. and certainly the obssession with massive SUVs is nowhere near as entrenched as in the US.
[size=75]JFK:
What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean...someone who looks ahead, who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions,who cares about the welfare of the people, who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad...then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."[/size]

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Post by Cistron » Thu May 15, 2008 5:29 am

jaganath wrote:not all european cities are such havens of good transport policy. London, for example, is a nightmre.
I suppose compared to NO public transport it's heaven. Shitty? - yes; daylight robbery? yes; but at least it's there. You can get to almost any place in London by public transport (even though it frequently takes ages). I'd like to see how you do that in some of the US metropoles.
I suspect many Europeans just do not realize the "big" problem we are facing.....that's the problem, big. People have built homes 30 miles outside town, and sometimes drive 40 miles to get to work.
Many people do in Europe as well. Using your car has always been a sign of wealth. There is even an economic term for this effect (which has escaped my memory).
We need motor-fuel that we can afford......and it's there for the use, if we can get around the finger-pointers and the tree-huggers. The price of every aspect of living in the USA is being affected, from just getting around, from buying a computer part at the local store, to buying food to eat. Just what good would it do to bicycle to the food mart, only to find the food costs, too high to afford?
Wouldn't that at least solve the obesity problem? :D
No seriously, you lost me on this one. How does food-price relate to using your car for every meter of movement?

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Post by klankymen » Thu May 15, 2008 6:19 am

Cistron wrote:
I suspect many Europeans just do not realize the "big" problem we are facing.....that's the problem, big. People have built homes 30 miles outside town, and sometimes drive 40 miles to get to work.
Many people do in Europe as well. Using your car has always been a sign of wealth. There is even an economic term for this effect (which has escaped my memory).
I too commute 33 Miles each direction. But you know why? Because despite fuel prices of 1.50€ / liter ( 1.20 GBP per liter / 8.70$ per gallon) it's cheaper than taking public transport.... not to mention takes about 60% of the time that the train would - so much for german public transport, jaganath :lol:

I only wish I could find someone to carpool with, that would be so much cheaper.
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Post by Bluefront » Thu May 15, 2008 7:19 am

Cistron.... the soaring fuel prices affect much more than the cost of driving your car. The farmers are paying the same price for fuel for their farm equipment. The cost of transporting food, other products is also soaring. This entire economy is being affected by the price of imported crude oil.....big time.

And yet..... we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem. Unbelievable to me. I can understand a citizen of Iran and other places, sharing in this glee......but not an American citizen. :x
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Post by walle » Thu May 15, 2008 8:55 am

We pay roughly $2.40 for one litre of petrol over here (diesel more expensive still) so, you’re not the only ones bleeding here.
Cistron wrote: How does food-price relate to using your car for every meter of movement?
English farmers using Wheelbarrows now or what?!? cmon, we're talking about fuel prices here for Christ sake.


Anyway,

Petrol and diesel are so unmodern that if it weren’t for the oil cooperations it would have been history a decade ago, this is not some left wing nutter rant either, it’s common sense. They are bloody standing in the way!

I know, I’ve said this before but it needs repeating.

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Post by aristide1 » Thu May 15, 2008 2:01 pm

Bluefront wrote:....if we can get around the finger-pointers and the tree-huggers.
Boy I wish I lived in this fairy tale place where the oil companies aren't setting American energy policy.

Where is this place and how do I get there?

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Post by qviri » Thu May 15, 2008 3:22 pm

Bluefront wrote:And yet..... we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem. Unbelievable to me. I can understand a citizen of Iran and other places, sharing in this glee......but not an American citizen. :x
Oh, they're just spoiled children.

There. Wasn't that easy?
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Post by aristide1 » Thu May 15, 2008 3:34 pm

More like he can't aim a volley with any degree of legitimacy, so lets just send a volley to the middle of nowhere, so nobody can argue with it.

Problem is nobody even knows what this is about.

Hey, there are people in all countries that dislike the country they are in. Not exactly a prime time newsflash. And some of them are just natural born whiners.


Have some cheese with that Carl?
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Post by sthayashi » Thu May 15, 2008 8:28 pm

This is just a friendly warning to keep it civil in here or this thread will get locked.
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Post by frostedflakes » Thu May 15, 2008 11:38 pm

aristide and Bluefront... keeping a political discussion civil? Yeah right. :lol:
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Post by Bluefront » Fri May 16, 2008 12:50 am

sthayashi..... you're seeing the usual technique used by certain people to shut down topics. Finger-pointing, name-calling, personal attacks, followed by a lock-down.....children behave like that. Too bad...
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Post by Cistron » Fri May 16, 2008 1:36 am

walle wrote:English farmers using Wheelbarrows now or what?!? cmon, we're talking about fuel prices here for Christ sake.
I'm Austrian and any fuel used by our farmers is freed from tax.
Cistron.... the soaring fuel prices affect much more than the cost of driving your car. The farmers are paying the same price for fuel for their farm equipment. The cost of transporting food, other products is also soaring. This entire economy is being affected by the price of imported crude oil.....big time.
Thanks, I didn't know that American farmers pay the same fuel prices (see above). I suppose since the fuel taxes are extremely low anyway this wasn't that much of a problem for a long time.

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Post by jaganath » Fri May 16, 2008 1:46 am

I too commute 33 Miles each direction. But you know why? Because despite fuel prices of 1.50€ / liter ( 1.20 GBP per liter / 8.70$ per gallon) it's cheaper than taking public transport.... not to mention takes about 60% of the time that the train would - so much for german public transport, jaganath

it's unrealistic to expect public transport to be able to serve everyone, especially people who live out in the countryside in the middle of nowhere. public transport is most economically viable and effective in densely populated, compact urban centers (Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo, Seoul, etc). after all we can't build a railway line to serve one farmer in rural Arkansas!

but in a way the efficiency of the German autobahn system is another aspect of good public transport policy; given that not everyone can or will use public transport, and the motorcar is still the predominant mode of transport for millions, you can't just abandon the motorist (as the powers that be seem content to do in the UK).
[size=75]JFK:
What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean...someone who looks ahead, who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions,who cares about the welfare of the people, who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad...then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."[/size]

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Post by aristide1 » Fri May 16, 2008 4:21 am

Bluefront wrote:sthayashi..... you're seeing the usual technique used by certain people to shut down topics. Finger-pointing, name-calling, personal attacks, followed by a lock-down.....children behave like that. Too bad...
As opposed to evasion, generalities, and the inability to say "I made a mistake."

"Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity. "

Michel de Montaigne 1533 1592
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Post by Bluefront » Fri May 16, 2008 4:26 am

Cistron....With fuel prices around $4 a gallon in most places, federal and state taxes are a very minor part of the cost here. Some politicians were advocating removing federal gas taxes for the summer. I think they changed their minds when it was pointed out just how little this would save motorists..... about the cost of a single tank of gasoline over the whole summer.

:(
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Post by aristide1 » Fri May 16, 2008 4:29 am

Can I asked him what he's done besides talk? Has he planted any corn? Did he even bother to check the air pressure in his tires? Or is it all just talk to stir things up with statements that don't apply to anyone here like:
we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem
Can I ask who this is about? Would evading questions be the adult thing to do?

You decide.
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Post by aristide1 » Fri May 16, 2008 2:10 pm

aristide1 wrote:Can I asked him what he's done besides talk? Has he planted any corn? Did he even bother to check the air pressure in his tires? Or is it all just talk to stir things up with statements that don't apply to anyone here like:
we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem
Can I ask who this is about? Would evading questions be the adult thing to do?

You decide.
Bluefront wrote:children behave like that. Too bad...
Evading a direct question. CEOs and politicians trying to hide criminal behavior behave like that. Too bad.
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Post by walle » Fri May 16, 2008 5:16 pm

CEOs and politicians trying to hide criminal behavior behave like that. Too bad.
Nothing else to be expected from those tongue-chewing corporate imbeciles calling themselves politicians.
Evading a direct question

Asking one question and get all the “answersâ€

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Post by aristide1 » Sat May 17, 2008 5:08 pm

aristide1 wrote:Can I asked him what he's done besides talk? Has he planted any corn? Did he even bother to check the air pressure in his tires? Or is it all just talk to stir things up with statements that don't apply to anyone here like:
we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem
Can I ask who this is about? Would evading questions be the adult thing to do?

You decide.
Will we ever get an answer? Why not?

Would anyone else want to see this question answered?
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Post by Bluefront » Sun May 18, 2008 3:15 am

walle..... it seems to be true that European countries have traditionally taxed motor-fuel at a much higher rate than the USA. I suppose this has encouraged smaller vehicles, more bicycles, better public transit, etc. But in the USA we've had the advantage of some local supply of crude oil, plus lower fuel taxes.

So what we have now.... a vast system of roads, highways, inter-states, none of which are designed for anything other than high speed travel. Outside of the big cities.....public transit is almost non-existent.

Example.....My last little part-time job was 23 miles from my house, a 40 minute drive by car. By bicycle, maybe three hours if you arrived alive. By bus......hard to say, maybe three hours also, including numerous transfers, missed connections, etc. Just not realistic. This is in the St Louis metropolitan area. If you lived a few miles outside this area....no buses.

If you could find somebody that lived/worked and had the same hours as you did, car-pooling becomes possible. Few people are that lucky.

We need to continue with our current ways of getting around.......travel by car or motor-cycle. A change would involve a massive amount of capital expenditures....and years of construction/planning/disruption. Our problems are right now.
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Post by aristide1 » Sun May 18, 2008 7:35 am

Bluefront wrote:And yet..... we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem. Unbelievable to me.
What is this about? Please explain.
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Post by qviri » Sun May 18, 2008 8:09 am

Bluefront wrote:We need to continue with our current ways of getting around.......travel by car or motor-cycle. A change would involve a massive amount of capital expenditures....and years of construction/planning/disruption. Our problems are right now.
Your current ways of getting around are unsustainable. Claiming gasoline prices are some vast conspiracy won't change the fact that demand of oil is going up courtesy of India and China, and supply isn't getting any larger.
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Re: The Moon-Shine of Gasoline....

Post by Aris » Sun May 18, 2008 8:42 am

pipperoni wrote:
Bluefront wrote:...attitudes might/should change....
Completely true!

However I think overall it would be cheaper and more effective to just go to the electric car. I think ethanol production on the scale of fueling North America's great automobile will always be a pipe dream.
Aye. I mean look at what we've tried so far. Very little in the way of ethenol production from our countrys' highest ethenol production produce (corn), and already price for the eatable version has gone up. Can you imagine if we tried to do what brazil has done, and go completely ethenol soley on our own countries produce? Sure it worked for them, but 1. sugarcane produces more ethenol than the same volume of corn, and 2. they have a lot less tanks to fill than we do. You'd probably never be able to afford to eat corn again. And corn isnt just used for human consumption, its also a primary food source for a lot of meat production. So chicken, beef, pork, all would increase in price. I'm sure corn is used for other things as well that im just not aware of.

And while im sure some people would get over that fact, it just seems like to me that elecric battery technology is in a boom. We'll have hybrid car produced from an american company, on american soil, using electricity from american power plants that will go around 30-40 miles without using a single drop of gas in about 3 years. Thats with battery technology where it is right now. I've already read about some guys at MIT that have come up with a batter that holds 10x more charge than the current best lithium ion batteries of today, and will be in production in 5-10 years. With those batters we could go 300-400 miles on a single charge with the same volume of batteries. You wouldnt even need an engine for "backup" purposes with that sort of range. Which would drop a huge amount of weight and space available, further increasing battery effeciency.

Everything i read from ethenal, and hydrogen, their all like "were soo close, were soo close, maybe 5 years, maybe 10 years" but every 5 years they are just saying the same things over n over. Electric power technology is here today, its being designed and produced today, its already on the calander for a roll out date. It takes a car company around 5 years to create a new car. So even if hydrogen or ethenal production technology was ready TODAY which it isnt, your still looking at a MINIMUM of 5 years before you see a production vehicle with that technology.

And this is the thing i like most about this new engine system that GM is producing (E-Flex), is that while when it first comes out it will be a gasolin hybrid, it can easily be changed to any sort of alternative engine in the future. So when hydrogen technology is ready, or ethonal production is ready, you can toss a motor in there with E-Flex and it will work. It doesnt have to be JUST gasoline, but it ultimately ends up as electricity.

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Post by Bluefront » Sun May 18, 2008 9:40 am

Obviously the ethanol machine from the OP would only work for a few people. I wonder what that thing smells like in operation? :)

I have the impression that if every car being sold today was pure electric/batteries, the very next problem we'd face would be electricity production. Nuclear plants...... haven't made a new one for decades, not politically feasible. Hydro-electricity.....like where? Other methods are really far off.....who knows how far?

We simply need more home-production of gasoline......more wells, more digging, and the immediate use of our coal resource. And who cares if a few animals are affected. Right now our entire economy is at risk......that's people I'm talking about.
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Post by aristide1 » Sun May 18, 2008 10:00 am

aristide1 wrote:
Bluefront wrote:And yet..... we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem. Unbelievable to me.
What is this about? Please explain.
And who here is gloating?
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Post by aristide1 » Sun May 18, 2008 6:00 pm

aristide1 wrote:
aristide1 wrote:
Bluefront wrote:And yet..... we have people who claim to be American citizens, gloating over this problem. Unbelievable to me.
What is this about? Please explain.
And who here is gloating?
So who's gloating already? You know you can have a far more credible stand on your argument with anything remotely more substantial than an blanket accusation.

Shall I continue to point out who's being childish here or not? Much like your PJ Rouke statement, checking with brainyquoutes.com that remark can't be substantiated either. Last time I saw so many statement that could not be proven were from the CIA, and we've seen what they were worth. Also hiding behind a bunch of flag waiving.

One lousy fact, apparently far too much to ask for.

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Post by aristide1 » Sun May 18, 2008 7:32 pm

What happened to Autoboy? Is in the backyard drilling for oil?

:roll:
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Post by qviri » Sun May 18, 2008 8:40 pm

aristide, do your cause a favour and shut up.
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