SPCR'ers: Different from rest computer nuts?

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SPCR'ers: Different from rest computer nuts?

Post by thejamppa » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am

Hi

I've slightly been thinking, why SPCR community is so much different from other hardware communities. For the time I've been here, there is virtually no mudthrowing between Ati vs. nVidia or AMD vs. Intel. The lack of fanboys make this community so much different and much better compeared the other communities.

I think it might be, because we're all driven by common goal wanting quiet and silent computers. That seems to override the rest thing, which usually ends up fanboy flaming in rest forums.

That also makes SPCR community much more fun to be with and to be interactive I think.

Am I wrong saying that our greatest common thing: Desire for silence is far stronger than any deviating factors in hardware, preventing splitting into warring fanboy groups like in rest hardware sites?

I've been thinking this bit... But I am glad this is so. I've never been in this kind of hardware community, that seems to lack internal rivalries and where everybody seem to work for the same goal, sharing friendly their methods and discoveries while helping others.

I love SPCR ^^
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Post by merlin » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:07 am

Maybe noise makes people crazy ;)

Ok to be more serious, there's still certainly minor amounts of fanboyism still, and for me, some anti-company sentiment for the ones that do far too much bs with fake silence specs. But generally the goal is always to get a computer that's both powerful enough and quiet enough. Most of us would be fine with whatever would work here. Personally I've always tried to be brand neutral because brands aren't the #1 indicator of silence, quality, speed, etc, usually.
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Post by mexell » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:46 am

In every DIY forum, you've got the hardcore-DIY-fraction and the shell-out-money-fraction. It's not very astonishing that the DIY fraction isn't overly brand sensitive. But here, even the buying fraction is quite neutral.

It looks like there's a bunch of top tier products in every category (what's top tier is set by the great, great SPCR reviews, thanks Mike and all the others) and these products are widely accepted as being the best (here: quietest). This makes what makes flaming even in the buying fraction pretty unnecessary.
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Post by Vicotnik » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:50 am

I think age has something to do with it. Most silence freaks are older than the getting-the-most-3DMarks freaks.
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Post by X'o'Lore » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:06 pm

People here can recommend parts that could be quieter than others, but in this case the all-important "speed" parameter has not really gone away. Silence is almost always a trade-off so, what is optimal for one person is quite obviously not so for the next. I think most people here see that and so tend to let others decide what hardware they want/need and limit themselves to offering advice on how to silence whatever the others choose.

I find the focus is often less about building the quietest computer and more about making the computer you have or want the quietest it can be. It's sort of an important distinction I make.

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Re: SPCR'ers: Different from rest computer nuts?

Post by Ralf Hutter » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:15 pm

thejamppa wrote:Hi

I've slightly been thinking, why SPCR community is so much different from other hardware communities. For the time I've been here, there is virtually no mudthrowing between Ati vs. nVidia or AMD vs. Intel. The lack of fanboys make this community so much different and much better compeared the other communities.
Yes, you're exactly right. Just don't ever mention "Thermaltake" and you'll get along here just fine!
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Post by Erssa » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:25 pm

I too love SPCR, but SPCR too has its share of fanboys. Just look at the current AMD vs Intel thread. There was very strong pro-AMD atmosphere before Intel released Core-processors. When Anandtech released preview Conroe benchmarks I made a thread: "Conroe destroys AMD", because the benchmark results were so overwhelming. I felt the thread was full of AMD fanboyism and scepticism bordering paranoia. And when the thread was already more then month old even MikeC changed the name to "According to Anandtech, Conroe beats FX-60".
MikeC wrote:Yes, it was me, and it has nothing to do with political correctness or fanboyism. It has to do with wanting SPCR not to mislead anyone... not that this is really possible in a forum. "Conroe Destroys AMD" -- come on, talk about a flaming headline! It jumped at me on the front page everytime someone posted in the thread. The revised headline is simply more accurate.
Yes, I know. I'm a petty soul for remembering this, more then 2 years old censorship. But... I told you so ;). Sorry I just had to say it. In my defense, Conroe did infact destroy AMD. When I made the thread AMD stock price was 33$, now it's less then 6$. And sorry Mike, but I still feel context of the thread wasn't so misleading, that the title had to be changed. I still feel your decision to change the title was because Intel was the big Satan and you, being a mere mortal, played favorites. (P.S No need to defend yourself again. I'm just saying how I felt/feel.)

Generally speaking, some brands are more welcome here then others. It's easy to buy Antec or Thermalright. Everybody will accept your decision. But try buying a Thermaltake product, mention it on the forums, or better yet, recommend it. Be prepared to have plenty of excuses, because none will do. If you count strict political views as fanboyism we have that also. Anyone reading Off Topic is probably familiar (more familiar then we'd like to be!) with Bluefront's and Aristide's conservatives vs liberals -"debates".

I think people here at SPCR pick favorites just as easily as people on any other website. We just mostly agree on stuff. But I also agree with Vicotnik, age has a lot to do with it.

Don't get me wrong. I think SPCR is the best hardware website ever. Reviews are excellent and these forums are pretty much the best internet has to offer.
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Post by spookmineer » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:51 pm

This community is more mature than most other forums, I feel.

Users on other forums focus on speed and new hardware, mainly for one reason: to play the latest games, and with a high framerate (not accurately enough, but these are the "gamer's forums" - not meant in a condescending way because I still visit those too).

After tinkering with overclocking, newest hardware etc, you settle down a bit and just want to enjoy some music instead of hearing your all too present PC.
At that time, people hopefully find this site and there is no more need to be a fanboy. Hm... less fans is more, even.

What makes an additional difference is that there is a substantial amount of people here who don't play (recent) games - these people wouldn't have a reason to visit other forums, but they do find valuable info here (in this case, the non-gaming-niche finds a forum here).


I think maturity is the nr. 1 reason almost all hardware related threads will not have mud fights (and also most of the off-topic threads...).
It's just a relief not to have to plough through all the "useless" comments - comments not related to the thread because of immaturity or boasting. Although advice on other forums have improved some, for example: no longer 1 kW PSU's are recommended for the latest GPU-CPU combo.
Erssa wrote:I think SPCR is the best hardware website ever. Reviews are excellent and these forums are pretty much the best internet has to offer.
:D

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Post by jessekopelman » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:17 pm

SPCR has some fun tribalism, though. Audiophiles who defend $X00 cables and lossless audio codecs in the face of all scientific evidence. People who value reduced fan count even more than low noise and their cousins who just want a passively cooled system at any cost. Those willing to spend hundreds of dollars to drop the energy consumption of their systems by single digit Watts. Whether or not you agree with such people, their sentiment is certainly more entertaining than rooting for one multibillion dollar corporation at the expense of another.

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Post by bogus » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:32 pm

Erssa wrote: There was very strong pro-AMD atmosphere before Intel released Core-processors.
AFAIR, it wasn't so pro-AMD but rather very anti-Prescott
When Anandtech released preview Conroe benchmarks I made a thread: "Conroe destroys AMD",
I don't know, the first word coming to my mind with such a title would be "fanboy"!
MikeC changed the name to "According to Anandtech, Conroe beats FX-60".
MikeC wrote:Yes, it was me, and it has nothing to do with political correctness or fanboyism. It has to do with wanting SPCR not to mislead anyone... not that this is really possible in a forum. "Conroe Destroys AMD" -- come on, talk about a flaming headline! It jumped at me on the front page everytime someone posted in the thread. The revised headline is simply more accurate.
.
I'd have to agree with Mike here!

I believe that many SPCRers, care more about other things than raw performance. We recognized that core2 is better than k8 but we're not that overwhelmed by it to start shouting "Conroe Destroys AMD". Atom on the other hand....

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Post by andyb » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:08 pm

I think that the general maturity and level-headed people on the SPCR forums make it what it is, and outsiders either follow suit or get bored with the lack of flame wars and go back to other forums.

Essentially the SPCR forums are a self-fulfilling prophecy - but without any lies :P

Also the reviews are beyond first class by comparision with 90% of the reviews out there, only a few can compete on overall quality, and none of them get anywhere near when it comes to the noise/silence itself - and soon the gulf will widen (a lot).

Many people are coming round to the idea that computers dont have to be noisy, and so SPCR reviews are going to become more mainstream in their general popularity. All that will be left to do is to keep the stupid people and fanboys in the forums to a minimum to keep these kinds of topics sensible, fun and interesting.


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Post by Aris » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:11 pm

I used to be a fanboy. You grow out of it, and eventually you realize you just want your box to work right without spending too much. One day that may be nvidia, the next ATI, same with AMD and Intel.

Theres very few companies that i will buy reguardless of all other factors.
-Antec cases i think is one, though i'll still shop around just to see whats out there.
-Asus Motherboards is another. Really been happy with every one ive ever owned, and have kicked myself for passing them up for the Fad brand of the month in the past.
-Thermalright is a brand i prefer to go with, but lately they've been a bit too pricey. Still good products though and one of my favorite companies for heatsinks. Hopefully they dont over-endulge the price gouging like some other former favorite companies of mine, like corsair memory.


In the end though, i think the reason is because this sort of activity takes some thought. Its not a plug in the fastest thing available and blow up people in quake sort of thing. So you tend to get older, more mature people here. Kids dont really care if something is loud, most of the stuff they do is loud anyhow. They'd likely rather spend money on better/louder speakers/headphones than take the time and effort to make their computers quieter. A lot of the younger kids i meet say they never even think about computer noise. The things they think about is having the most CFM of airflow, bright LED/neon lights, windows, fastest hardware etc etc etc. Everything every kid needs to enlarge their online EPEEN so they can prance around and brag to all their friends. You cant brag to your friends about a quiet computer.
Ralf Hutter wrote: Yes, you're exactly right. Just don't ever mention "Thermaltake" and you'll get along here just fine!
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Post by spookmineer » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:34 pm

Aris wrote:Its not a plug in the fastest thing available and blow up people in quake sort of thing.
It is still fun though :wink:

Aris wrote:You cant brag to your friends about a quiet computer.
I do that all the time :shock:

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Post by merlin » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:22 pm

I'm definitely a silence bragger, well not really on purpose, but since I always talk about it, people know and now they tend to listen to my advice, so I guess it's not a bad thing.

When you tell people you can pull off silent and fast and cheap, people perk up. And I think that's far more awesome than just fast and mindless. In fact, I find that pursuit is of interest in all facets of life, optimized, rather than brute.
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Post by andyb » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:49 am

Aris wrote:
You cant brag to your friends about a quiet computer.


I do that all the time Shocked
I used to, but I cant brag any more, you cant get quieter than silent :lol: (in your own environment that is).

I will start bragging again when I get my server as quiet as it will go.


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Post by Fayd » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:49 am

people have asked me a lot to 'build' systems for them... (make a parts list..they go and buy exactly what i specify)

and without their knowledge, i always include silence-oriented parts selling them on their other qualities (low heat, high efficiency, slick design, etc)

and they're always amazed when they turn it on and it's so quiet. they always end up loving it. even funnier when i ask them before hand, "how important is noise to you". invariably they always answer "irrelevant". but somehow they always appreciate the quiet PC when they have it.

the point of this ramble is that some people havent concieved of a PC's ability to be quiet. it's something that they need to experience before they're hooked.

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Post by IsaacKuo » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:04 am

bogus wrote:
Erssa wrote: There was very strong pro-AMD atmosphere before Intel released Core-processors.
AFAIR, it wasn't so pro-AMD but rather very anti-Prescott
Yes, indeed. Prescott and netburst wasn't just a bad CPU choice for us, but it was also threatening our choices for motherboards and computer cases. The presumed unstoppable hot-CPU trend was threatening to kill of ATX in favor of BTX--a result which could have been disastrous for our hobby. Imagine a world where all of the new computer cases and motherboards have the CPU heatsink first in line for fresh air, and this CPU warmed air is drawn INTO the case!

Prescott and any Prescott successors had to die, to nip this BTX disaster in the bud. The only way that was ever going to happen would be if Intel felt seriously threatened by AMD and dramatically reversed course (which, thankfully, they did).

Now, imagine an alternate history where AMD instead copied Intel's Prescott/netburst approach. Maybe AMD even out-netburst's Intel and gets the jump on Intel's performance edge. Maybe not. Either way, Intel has no reason to reverse course and waste years developing Conroe, and today we're stuck with CPU's you can fry breakfast with, and BTX mobos/cases that resemble hair dryers. Some of us pony up the cash for mobile processors and obscure motherboards, and old fashioned ATX cases. Some of us give up on modern computing altogether and cling onto our Northwoods and Shuttle Zens. Some of us turn to poor performance Via or Geode CPU options. None of us are happy with our options.

Those were the stakes. Is it any wonder we were rabidly anti-Prescott?
I believe that many SPCRers, care more about other things than raw performance. We recognized that core2 is better than k8 but we're not that overwhelmed by it to start shouting "Conroe Destroys AMD". Atom on the other hand....
I'm still waiting for Pentium D to work its way out of the budget range. I still can't make Intel work within my budget range, and I really want to because of Intel's good graphics driver support for Linux. I have a feeling that by the time Intel can compete with AMD for budget computing, AMD/Ati's support for Linux will already be competitive with Intel's Linux support.
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Post by tehcrazybob » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:58 am

Fayd wrote:people have asked me a lot to 'build' systems for them...and without their knowledge, i always include silence-oriented parts...and they're always amazed when they turn it on and it's so quiet. even funnier when i ask them before hand, "how important is noise to you". invariably they always answer "irrelevant". but somehow they always appreciate the quiet PC when they have it...
I do this as well, and it strikes me as funny. Similarly, I enjoy threads on other computer forums when noise comes up, and fifteen people respond that not only is silence irrelevant, but they like their computer to be noisy and have trouble sleeping without that. I just wonder how long it would take them to get used to silence, and how much happier they would be if they did.

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Post by FartingBob » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:38 am

I find it funny when people post pics of their systems with loads of bling and then i put up my photos with a passive S1 and a passive Ninja on the same components and people cant believe that it runs so quietly and cool. I tell them that a 2000rpm 120mm fan is beyond excessive but they don't understand.
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Post by Sizzle » Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:07 am

We're better looking that's for sure :)

Well, I think so, my cube mates at work think I am nuts. When they have old systems on the bench to work on the noise drives me insane.
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Post by Erssa » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:06 am

IsaacKuo wrote:Prescott and any Prescott successors had to die, to nip this BTX disaster in the bud. The only way that was ever going to happen would be if Intel felt seriously threatened by AMD and dramatically reversed course (which, thankfully, they did).
You give AMD way too much credit. Even without AMD Athlon 64, Intel would have developed the same low power cpu they have now. Conroe is a descendant of Pentium M, which came out 6 months before first Athlon 64s. So Intel already had a low power cpu foundation. Laptops require low power cpus, so Intel would have kept developing Pentium M even without AMD. Eventually they would have noticed it's superior to Pentium 4. Global warming phenomen would have happened anyway, so green computing was inevitable. I'm not saying AMD didn't have any effect. They might have speeded things up bit.
Now, imagine an alternate history where AMD instead copied Intel's Prescott/netburst approach.
Funny how things eventually turned out. That alternate history is pretty much todays reality. Now we have 140W TDP Phenoms that make 780G motherboards play pop goes mosfet. Anandtech had even one of their motherboards catch fire during latest Phenom testing.
I'm still waiting for Pentium D to work its way out of the budget range. I still can't make Intel work within my budget range, and I really want to because of Intel's good graphics driver support for Linux. I have a feeling that by the time Intel can compete with AMD for budget computing, AMD/Ati's support for Linux will already be competitive with Intel's Linux support.
Intel has excellent budget cpus. Allendale's are pretty cheap, fast and energy efficient. For example E2200 is cheaper then my X2 4850e. Imo the only reason why Intel isn't as competitive as AMD in the budget range, is because AMD has better motherboards/platform in 780G.
bogus wrote:I believe that many SPCRers, care more about other things than raw performance.
FWIW, I believe that performance per watts matters alot to SPCRers. It was one of the reasons for the name of the thread. It's also a reason why people are currently building more on Intel platform. If SPCRers really cared more about other things, people would still be building primarily on AMD platform, or people would have switched to VIAs a long time ago.
bogus wrote:We recognized that core2 is better than k8 but we're not that overwhelmed by it to start shouting "Conroe Destroys AMD". Atom on the other hand....
Had I been shouting, I would have used exclamation marks. It was merely a statement. I guess you can't remember, because you weren't around here at that time, but it's not like Conroe's superiority was easily accepted, at least not until later. Read the thread, the fanboyism there is pretty evident, and I'm not just talking about those obvious quotes like "I hate intel". It's easily readable between the lines.

MikeC changed name of the thread, so it wouldn't mislead, and later he pasted a link to bogus AMD fanboy blog, which was far more misleading than threads original name ever was.
MikeC wrote:The Journal of Pervasive 64 bit Computing has a piece entitled Conroe Busted in which Conroe performance claims (made by Intel w/ Anand's help) are scrutinized and found wanting.
you believe that blog? it's fanboy blog.

the result is from victor wang sciencemark test, with two result being removed in order to show amd is much superior. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... hp?t=95021
It's not like MikeCs comments were fanboyish. They were neutral. But his actions send me a different signal. But it wasn't just MikeC. It was the general feeling I sensed on these forums at that time. Some people here at SPCR were just looking at things through very green glasses at that time...
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Post by IsaacKuo » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:40 am

Erssa wrote:
IsaacKuo wrote:Prescott and any Prescott successors had to die, to nip this BTX disaster in the bud. The only way that was ever going to happen would be if Intel felt seriously threatened by AMD and dramatically reversed course (which, thankfully, they did).
You give AMD way too much credit. Even without AMD Athlon 64, Intel would have developed the same low power cpu they have now.
Untrue. There would have been no reason for Intel to change their entire course and marketing strategy (clock speed==performance).

Also, you're not going far back enough. Before Athlon 64, AMD's Socket 754 Athlon already marked the new trend for AMD. Before Socket 754, AMD processors might have been cheaper than Intel, but they were generally less efficient and hotter. It was only after Prescott that AMD was less expensive, more efficient, and cooler.
Conroe is a descendant of Pentium M, which came out 6 months before first Athlon 64s. So Intel already had a low power cpu foundation.
So what? The Pentium M was based on the nice and efficient Pentium III, which of course came out years before Athlon 64. Intel Pentium III processors were certainly more efficient and cooler than AMD Socket A processors.

But that was the past. Netburst charted a new direction for Intel, and if AMD had chased the same strategy in the same quest for more Ghz, there would have been no reason for Intel to change their strategy.
Laptops require low power cpus, so Intel would have kept developing Pentium M even without AMD. Eventually they would have noticed it's superior to Pentium 4. Global warming phenomen would have happened anyway, so green computing was inevitable. I'm not saying AMD didn't have any effect. They might have speeded things up bit.
Oh, I'm sure that the Intel engineers knew that their good old Pentium III architecture was superior to netburst all along. But ultimately, Intel is not in the business of creating the best product possible; they are in the business of generating profits. So is AMD, of course. In this business, you sell what you've got and what you can market as superior to the competition. Intel is still selling netburst processors by the bucket, you know.
Now, imagine an alternate history where AMD instead copied Intel's Prescott/netburst approach.
Funny how things eventually turned out. That alternate history is pretty much todays reality. Now we have 140W TDP Phenoms that make 780G motherboards play pop goes mosfet. Anandtech had even one of their motherboards catch fire during latest Phenom testing.
This makes you sound like just an Intel fanboy. Comparing today's Phenom to any Intel netburst processor is just that ludicrous.
I'm still waiting for Pentium D to work its way out of the budget range. I still can't make Intel work within my budget range, and I really want to because of Intel's good graphics driver support for Linux. I have a feeling that by the time Intel can compete with AMD for budget computing, AMD/Ati's support for Linux will already be competitive with Intel's Linux support.
Intel has excellent budget cpus. Allendale's are pretty cheap, fast and energy efficient. For example E2200 is cheaper then my X2 4850e.
An E2200 costs something like $80, which is easily twice as much as my budget range. $80 is closer to what I expect to pay for both the processors AND the motherboard.

The E2200 is one I am keeping my eye on, though. Maybe in a couple years it will come down in price to my budget range. In the meantime, my Socket 754 processors are serving me just fine.
Imo the only reason why Intel isn't as competitive as AMD in the budget range, is because AMD has better motherboards/platform in 780G.
This sounds like just an Intel fanboy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll instead assume that you haven't spent any time shopping around for budget hardware.

As I see it, the main reason why Intel isn't competitive in the budget range is that they still have netburst Pentium D and Celeron D products in their current lineup. As long as they are Intel's budget products, the superior Core 2 and Dual Core products won't go down in price. After all, the ONLY reason to chose a Pentium D would be price.

In a year or two, Intel will finally retire netburst for good. Then, we may see some decent budget options from Intel.

I'm familiar with this waiting game. I had to do the same waiting game with AMD. I stuck with my socket 478 Northwoods while waiting for AMD to retire Socket A. The Socket A processors were getting in the way of Socket 754 going down in price. My waiting eventually paid off. After AMD finally retired Socket A, Socket 754 Semprons became the new budget line.

(Before that, I played this waiting game with Pentium 4. I stuck with Pentium III while waiting for sufficiently cheap P4 Celerons.)
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Post by tehcrazybob » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:27 am

IsaacKuo wrote:As I see it, the main reason why Intel isn't competitive in the budget range is that they still have netburst Pentium D and Celeron D products in their current lineup. As long as they are Intel's budget products, the superior Core 2 and Dual Core products won't go down in price. After all, the ONLY reason to chose a Pentium D would be price.
Where exactly are you shopping? I buy all my computer parts at Newegg, and they don't carry a single Pentium D or Celeron D. All their Celerons are Conroe-based and they only carry three Netburst chips, all at surprisingly high prices. The cheapest chip they carry is a Celeron Conroe-L at $40, and the cheapest dual-core is a Celeron Dual Core, also Conroe-based, at $50. The cheapest non-Celeron chip is a Pentium Dual Core, at $70.

I could understand if you didn't want to buy a Celeron, but you'll notice that Netburst is completely absent from that list. I don't believe Intel is still making Netburst chips - any you find are old stock.

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Post by IsaacKuo » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:53 am

I mostly buy CPUs and mobos from TigerDirect and Fry's (although, in the last year or so Fry's no longer seems to offer their good CPU/Mobo deals online). I get a lot of computer hardware from NewEgg, but so far I haven't found CPU/mobo deals on NewEgg which measure up in price, compared to CPU/mobo bundles deals which pop up elsewhere (if you're willing to wait and hunt around for a deal).

In the past, NewEgg has had some interesting CPU/mobo combo deals; I bought a $60 via CPU/mobo from NewEgg which served me well in a file server (until I killed it while prying off the CPU heatsink).

[edit added:]
Oh, btw I have nothing against buying Celeron. In the past, I've usually bought Celeron to save money, while not sacrificing too much performance for video playback. Unfortunately, the current Celeron line has disappointingly low speeds, so they don't make sense for me. It's not yet enough of an upgrade in performance to justify the expense.
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Post by Vicotnik » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:01 am

IsaacKuo wrote:Also, you're not going far back enough. Before Athlon 64, AMD's Socket 754 Athlon already marked the new trend for AMD. Before Socket 754, AMD processors might have been cheaper than Intel, but they were generally less efficient and hotter. It was only after Prescott that AMD was less expensive, more efficient, and cooler.
That's not the way I remember it. I currently use a E8400 based system, but this is my first main Intel system since the days of the Tualatin Celeron. I tend to jump ships pretty late and stick with the old and proven until the new stuff has matured quite a bit. That's why I stuck with my Tualatin Celeron until the TbredB. Then I made the jump to S939 after a while and then to C2D, but not until Wolfdale.

If you ask me netburst was never in the lead. In the beginning Tualatin was superior, later on the mature Socket A variants.
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Post by Erssa » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:45 am

Vicotnik wrote:
IsaacKuo wrote:Also, you're not going far back enough. Before Athlon 64, AMD's Socket 754 Athlon already marked the new trend for AMD. Before Socket 754, AMD processors might have been cheaper than Intel, but they were generally less efficient and hotter. It was only after Prescott that AMD was less expensive, more efficient, and cooler.
That's not the way I remember it.
Vicotnik, that's because it wasn't that way. IsaacKuo agrees with me, because Socket 754 was the first Athlon 64. He just doesn't understand it yet.
IsaacKuo wrote:Untrue. There would have been no reason for Intel to change their entire course and marketing strategy (clock speed==performance).

...

So what? The Pentium M was based on the nice and efficient Pentium III, which of course came out years before Athlon 64. Intel Pentium III processors were certainly more efficient and cooler than AMD Socket A processors.

But that was the past. Netburst charted a new direction for Intel, and if AMD had chased the same strategy in the same quest for more Ghz, there would have been no reason for Intel to change their strategy.
Intel never had just one direction in Pentium 4. Had you read their processor road maps at the time, you'd known this. Intel had planned their laptop platform, Centrino, years ahead and it was developing Pentium M line up the whole time it was developing Pentium 4. One of their key marketing points for Centrino was efficiency/battery life. To assume Intel wouldn't have developed a laptop processor because of AMD had their Athlon XP is pretty far fetching. Pentium M was always supposed to have it's own life, despite Pentium 4. Second gen Pentium M, Dothan, was released only 4 months after Prescott. They were developing it, far before anyone really knew Prescott would be a disaster. Dothan overclocked like crazy and clock for clock it was faster than P4 in many benchmarks. Intel surely would have seen this without AMDs existence.
Now, imagine an alternate history where AMD instead copied Intel's Prescott/netburst approach.
Funny how things eventually turned out. That alternate history is pretty much todays reality. Now we have 140W TDP Phenoms that make 780G motherboards play pop goes mosfet. Anandtech had even one of their motherboards catch fire during latest Phenom testing.
This makes you sound like just an Intel fanboy. Comparing today's Phenom to any Intel netburst processor is just that ludicrous.
Actually it's fanboyish, not to accept it. Phenom 9900 has TDP of 140W. SPCR has 130W TDP Pentium D950 in their cooler benchmark. No netburst processor reach TDPs as high as the latest Phenom. Phenom has around 150W higher power consumption under load, then similarly clocked, but faster, Q9300. Tell me again this isn't comparable to Netburst.
Imo the only reason why Intel isn't as competitive as AMD in the budget range, is because AMD has better motherboards/platform in 780G.
This sounds like just an Intel fanboy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll instead assume that you haven't spent any time shopping around for budget hardware.
Your definition of budget varies quite a lot from the rest of us. My current x2 4850e + 780g system cost me less then 300€. I'm sure if SPCR had a poll, majority would count systems costing less then 600$ in budget range.

Where I live E2160 costs 52€. Same price as the cheapest AMD dual core. I wouldn't wish a single core processor even for my worst enemy, that's why I don't care if you can get a lot slower Sempron for 20€ cheaper.

Calling me Intel fanboy is pretty far off. I have never bought Intel. Active members might know, that I recommend AMD in the system advice forum for budget computers. And although it's a shame to admit it, I even own AMD stocks. :oops:
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Post by andyb » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:19 pm

This post is going a long way to disprove it's title.

You are all acting like a bunch if beligerent children, stop it, or I will send your father in - go to bed, and I dont want to hear a peep out of you until morning.........


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Post by Beyonder » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:03 pm

Erssa wrote:Yes, I know. I'm a petty soul for remembering this, more then 2 years old censorship. But... I told you so ;). Sorry I just had to say it. In my defense, Conroe did infact destroy AMD.
I disagree. "Destroys" is something that is completely undefined. Intel definitely doesn't "destroy" AMD with respect to cost; a quick jaunt over to newegg shows that low cost processors are where AMD is currently doing quite well. Arguably not with respect to power consumption either, although this is more difficult to establish since motherboard and component selection plays such a big role.

If your thread title were in an auto forum, it would have been something like "Chevy Corvette destroys Honda Civic," which might be true, depending upon what criteria you were considering. In terms of 0-60 times, cornering, etc, sure--a Corvette "destroys" a Civic. Never mind that it gets a fraction of the mileage on premium fuel, seats two, and costs three times as much. The only thing a reader can reasonably take away from the thread title is the Civic must be crap.
When I made the thread AMD stock price was 33$, now it's less then 6$.
This means absolutely nothing. nVidia stock dropped 30% last Thursday (good time to buy, btw), despite the fact that the company is profitable and makes great GPUs. The price of a stock often has no reflection whatsoever of product quality, ironically (i.e. stocks drop simply because they didn't meet "analyst expectations," despite the fact that the company is still wildly profitable).

Don't get me wrong. I think SPCR is the best hardware website ever. Reviews are excellent and these forums are pretty much the best internet has to offer.
It's always been my favorite as well. And I think part of the reason it's my favorite is it considers other factors besides outright performance when selecting hardware.
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