Al Gore & Guy Dauncey's Energy Challenge to the World

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blackworx
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Post by blackworx » Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:11 am

brainykid wrote:Anyone remember memory effects?
That only applies to a specific, highly toxic battery chemistry - nickel cadmium - which is now no longer in mainstream use, having been replaced with more reliable, less environmentally toxic chemistries such as lithium. According to people much cleverer than me, the materials used in the latest generation of Li-ion batteries pose no threat to the environment (although I would point out that I haven't heard anyone vouch for the manufacturing process). Either way, such chemistries are mostly used in portable consumer goods, not industrial power storage.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, pumped-storage hydroelectricity is already used for load balancing, so all this fancy talk of batteries is unneccessary, unless we're talking of converting every car in America to electric operation and using their batteries as a means of load balancing. Where else would you put so many batteries?

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Post by jaganath » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:57 am

Nuclear power is:
1 clean, producing ZERO "greenhouse" emissions
2 Can provide 100% of our power needs
3 Can provide power 100% of the time, not just when we are using AC
4 Nuclear plants can be built anywhere
1. not true. the production of the huge amounts of concrete required for the reactor and containment building actually emits a significant amount of CO2, although admittedly not as much as a coal power station over its lifetime.

2. yes, with reprocessing.

3. not really. nuclear is good for baseload, but you will still need peak/topping power plants.

4. again, not really. politically, NIMBY means no-one wants a new nuclear reactor built near them, so new capacity is restricted to current nuclear sites already in use.

unless we're talking of converting every car in America to electric operation and using their batteries as a means of load balancing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V2g
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What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean...someone who looks ahead, who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions,who cares about the welfare of the people, who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad...then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."[/size]

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Post by aristide1 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:12 pm

brainykid wrote:4 Nuclear plants can be built anywhere
You mean like on earthquake faults and areas where population evacuation is not feasible? And the latter has already been done.

Another member of the over-generalization crowd. :roll:
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Post by brainykid » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:56 pm

aristide1 wrote:Another member of the over-generalization crowd. :roll:
Ahem, that was not the way I ment it to look. I was merely stating that nuclear power is not dependent on terrain, like solar, wind and geothermal.

(really, we dot have to split hairs here) I was hoping that all of us were smart enough to realize when something is literal. But... If you want to be that literal, why not build one on an earthquake fault? To use the expression, It is not beyond the wit of man to design a building that can survive the largest earthquake and remain fully intact. Think we cant build one in overpopulated areas? Why not just build one underground?
Granted, these ideas would be costly, but it is possible.
aristide1 wrote:You mean... is not feasible? And the latter has already been done.
Another member of the self contradicting crowd. :roll:

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Post by aristide1 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:31 pm

brainykid wrote:
aristide1 wrote:You mean... is not feasible? And the latter has already been done.
Another member of the self contradicting crowd. :roll:
It's been done on Long Island, and I didn't build it. Where's the self contradiction?
brainykid wrote:Ahem, that was not the way I ment it to look.
Not to split hairs here, but written text contains no vocal inflections to be used to determine what you meant, only the words are available.
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Post by Bluefront » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:28 am

brainykid.......nuclear reactors can be built almost anywhere. They are on ships and submarines, some are on space-craft. Obviously the technical problems can be over-come.

But the political problems with the "not-in-my-backyard" people, and the tree-hugger people pose a different problem. But I think attitudes are beginning to change.

Take off-shore drilling for example..... the Florida and California populations used to be dead-set against it. Recent polling indicates more than 50% of each population now favor off-shore drilling. All it took was $4 gasoline for a short while. Hopefully attitudes toward nuclear will take a similar turn....
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Post by Flancen » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:25 am

I think its great that Gore is still drawing attention to the issue of energy and pollution of the air, don't brand him a gobshite because he uses a lot of energy at home, he maybe just like to overclock a lot of computers at the same time?

however, if USA would succeed in his challenge wouldn't it be great, USA could pull out of Iraq and turn attention to Afghanistan where the terrorist and Taliban are still growing strong, and USA wouldn't have to care about what the Arab states say.

"you should not continue your war in Afghanistan!"
"what you going to do about it?"
"cut your oil supply!"
"like we need any oil!"

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Post by aristide1 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:03 am

Nobody wants nukes in their backyard, including people who aren't tree huggers.

Useless inaccurate generalizations. Again.
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Post by NeilBlanchard » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:58 am

Greetings,

I saw a video of and excellent presentation on energy policy by a person I had not heard of before: it is called "The Great Energy Revolution", and it is by Guy Dauncey. His web site is EarthFuture.com. The book that covers all the topics in the DVD (and a lot more) is titled "Stormy Weather" that lists 101 solutions ranging from things that you can personally do; all the way up to global policies.

This was made a few weeks before "Inconvenient Truth" and he goes into far more detail and specifics on the myriad of solutions that we already have. I encourage all of you to delve into any and all of what Guy Dauncey is talking about.

I was blown away by the comprehensiveness of Guy's presentation, and I've ordered 3 copies of the DVD -- one for my local library, one to share around with my friends and family, neighbors and my church, and one for myself. Guy has been working in this area for about 40 years, and he has really gotten to the core of the issue.
Sincerely, Neil
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Post by Bluefront » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:09 am

Hopefully Dauncey doesn't carry the political and other baggage, like Gore does. Perhaps his message won't deserve to be ignored, like Gore's does.... :lol:
[size=75]"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill disciplined, despotic, and useless. Liberalism is the philosophy of sniveling brats." - P.J. O'Rourke[/size]

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Post by aristide1 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:29 am

As opposed to the most ignorable of all? King George.
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Post by NeilBlanchard » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:27 am

Hi Carl,

If you saying that you can ignore someone because they have a political opinion, then that is a formula to become a hermit. I don't think that Guy Dauncey has his head in the political sand. He has been working in this area for about forty years, and he is quite credible.

This video is on the same subject as the DVD I mentioned, but it doesn't have the specifics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9J1cZHY-Uc
Sincerely, Neil
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Post by Bluefront » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:05 am

Neil....I won't ignore anyone who has political opinions. But when that person advocates a policy (like Gore's green policies), that he, himself can't/won't follow, he deserves to be ignored.

You listen to someone's opinions on the subject who wastes energy like mad? I won't. Gore has a heated outdoor swimming pool.
[size=75]"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill disciplined, despotic, and useless. Liberalism is the philosophy of sniveling brats." - P.J. O'Rourke[/size]

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Post by aristide1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:02 am

And with logical reason that makes what he says wrong.

Reminds me of parents that told their kids not to smoke while holding a lit cigarette. Should they have been ignored?
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Post by NeilBlanchard » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:24 am

Hi Carl,

You can rest assured that Guy Dauncey lives the way he should. If only the rest of us would follow his example.

Back on topic; here's the TOC from the book "Stormy Weather":
TEN SOLUTIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS
1. Grasp the Big Picture
2. Travel More Sustainably
3. If You Must Use a Car, Switch to the Most Fuel Efficient Model
4. Choose Energy Efficient Appliances
5. Make Your Home More Efficient
6. Use the Sun's Energy
7. Buy Green Power
8. Switch to a More Organic, Vegetarian Diet
9. Invest in Solar Funds
10. Live More Sustainably


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR CITIZENS ORGANIZATIONS
11. Set up a Local Group
12. Set up a Regional Group
13. Organize a Schools Initiative
14. Organize a Church Initiative
15. Organize a College Initiative
16. Organize a Car-Free Sunday
17. Start a Car-Share Organization
18. Create a Commotion
19. Educate Your Politicians
20. Link up with Other Groups


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR CITIES, TOWNS AND COUNTIES
21. Join the Cities for Climate Protection Campaign
22. Make your City's Operations More Efficient
23. Buy Green Power
24. Make your Whole City Efficient
25. Fill your City with Greenery
26. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle
27. Build a Sustainable Transportation System
28. Encourage Cycling and Walking
29. Stop Sprawl: Plan for Smart Growth
30. Build a Sustainable City


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR BUSINESSES and ORGANIZATIONS
31. Choose to Become Carbon Neutral
32. Become Energy Efficient and Reduce Waste
33. Travel Sustainably
34. Reduce your Other Emissions, and Buy Green Power
35. Buy Carbon Offsets
36. For Farms
37. For Forest Companies
38. For Architects, Builders and Developers
39. For Financial Institutions
40. Embrace Natural Capitalism


FIFTEEN SOLUTIONS FOR ENERGY COMPANIES
41. Set New Goals
42. Develop a Distributed Grid
43. Build Solar Capacity
44. Offer Wind and Renewable Energy
45. Encourage Residential Efficiency
46. Encourage Commercial and Industrial Efficiency
47. Set up Community Partnerships
48. Close your Coal-Fired Power Plants
49. Explore New Technologies
50. Oil Companies - Reduce your Direct Emissions
51. Become a Solar-Hydrogen Company
52. Buy Offsets for your Remaining Emissions
53. Bury your Carbon Dioxide
54. Convert Fossil Fuels into Hydrogen
55. Help the World


FIVE SOLUTIONS FOR AUTO COMPANIES
56. Choose a Sustainable Fuel for the Future
57. Prioritize Fuel Efficiency
58. Become an Earth-Smart Company
59. Sell Transport, not just Cars
60. Form New Partnerships


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR STATES & PROVINCES
61. Set Clear Goals
62. Show Leadership
63. Build an Energy Democracy
64. Produce Cleaner and Greener Power
65. Build an Energy-Efficient State or Province
66. Build a Sustainable Transport System and Stop Sprawl
67. Shift your Taxes
68. Capture your Methane
69. Support Sustainable Farming and Forestry
70. Build a Green Economy


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS
71. Launch a New Apollo Project
72. Level the Playing Field
73. Introduce a Carbon Tax and Rebate
74. Establish an Energy Efficiency Strategy
75. Establish a Renewable Energy Strategy
76. Establish a Zero Emissions Vehicles Strategy
77. Establish a Sustainable Transportation Strategy
78. Develop Sustainable Farming
79. Develop Sustainable Forestry
80. Steer Towards Sustainability


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR DEVELOPING NATIONS
81. Follow the Sustainable Path
82. Create Solar Villages
83. Build Ecological Cities
84. Learn from Gaviotas
85. Maximize your Energy Efficiency
86. Embrace Renewable Energy
87. Solutions for India
88. Solutions for China
89. Build Strong Citizens' Organizations
90. Demand Sustainability Adjustment Programs


TEN GLOBAL SOLUTIONS
91. Refresh and Renew the Kyoto Protocol
92. Launch a Global Green Deal
93. Establish a Global Climate Fund
94. Include Aviation
95. Accelerate the Phase-Out of CFCs, HCFCs & HFCs
96. Reform the Global Financial Institutions
97. Stop Global Deforestation
98. Build a Global Movement
99. Form a Global Ecological Alliance
100. Declare a Century of Ecological Restoration
101: Now, Think!
Thoughts?
Last edited by NeilBlanchard on Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sincerely, Neil
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Post by aristide1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:52 pm

Neil,

You asked for too much on the very first item, over-generalization rules!

Add these to your list.

Make lobbying a capital crime.

Put the person who is guilty of treason in jail (PlameGate).

Uncover Cheney's cloaked behind national security bs energy policy and see just how many laws he broke, all of the against the American people.

Drill for oil on Bush's estate, see how he likes all those leaks.

No pardons for co-conspirators by co-conspirators.
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Post by Bluefront » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:55 pm

Neil....explain how you turned a thread about Gore's energy suggestions, into a rant about the current president. FWIW. Check into the Bush ranch in Texas, and it's energy usage. You may be surprised......but probably won't admit it.
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Post by aristide1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:02 pm

Our policies have everything to do with the mess we're in.

You can't even accomplish rule #1
1. Grasp the Big Picture
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Post by mattthemuppet » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:20 pm

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hi Carl,

You can rest assured that Guy Dauncey lives the way he should. If only the rest of us would follow his example.

Back on topic:
TEN SOLUTIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS
1. Grasp the Big Picture
2. Travel More Sustainably
3. If You Must Use a Car, Switch to the Most Fuel Efficient Model
4. Choose Energy Efficient Appliances
5. Make Your Home More Efficient
6. Use the Sun's Energy
7. Buy Green Power
8. Switch to a More Organic, Vegetarian Diet
9. Invest in Solar Funds
10. Live More Sustainably


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR CITIZENS ORGANIZATIONS
11. Set up a Local Group
12. Set up a Regional Group
13. Organize a Schools Initiative
14. Organize a Church Initiative
15. Organize a College Initiative
16. Organize a Car-Free Sunday
17. Start a Car-Share Organization
18. Create a Commotion
19. Educate Your Politicians
20. Link up with Other Groups


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR CITIES, TOWNS AND COUNTIES
21. Join the Cities for Climate Protection Campaign
22. Make your City's Operations More Efficient
23. Buy Green Power
24. Make your Whole City Efficient
25. Fill your City with Greenery
26. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle
27. Build a Sustainable Transportation System
28. Encourage Cycling and Walking
29. Stop Sprawl: Plan for Smart Growth
30. Build a Sustainable City


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR BUSINESSES and ORGANIZATIONS
31. Choose to Become Carbon Neutral
32. Become Energy Efficient and Reduce Waste
33. Travel Sustainably
34. Reduce your Other Emissions, and Buy Green Power
35. Buy Carbon Offsets
36. For Farms
37. For Forest Companies
38. For Architects, Builders and Developers
39. For Financial Institutions
40. Embrace Natural Capitalism


FIFTEEN SOLUTIONS FOR ENERGY COMPANIES
41. Set New Goals
42. Develop a Distributed Grid
43. Build Solar Capacity
44. Offer Wind and Renewable Energy
45. Encourage Residential Efficiency
46. Encourage Commercial and Industrial Efficiency
47. Set up Community Partnerships
48. Close your Coal-Fired Power Plants
49. Explore New Technologies
50. Oil Companies - Reduce your Direct Emissions
51. Become a Solar-Hydrogen Company
52. Buy Offsets for your Remaining Emissions
53. Bury your Carbon Dioxide
54. Convert Fossil Fuels into Hydrogen
55. Help the World


FIVE SOLUTIONS FOR AUTO COMPANIES
56. Choose a Sustainable Fuel for the Future
57. Prioritize Fuel Efficiency
58. Become an Earth-Smart Company
59. Sell Transport, not just Cars
60. Form New Partnerships


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR STATES & PROVINCES
61. Set Clear Goals
62. Show Leadership
63. Build an Energy Democracy
64. Produce Cleaner and Greener Power
65. Build an Energy-Efficient State or Province
66. Build a Sustainable Transport System and Stop Sprawl
67. Shift your Taxes
68. Capture your Methane
69. Support Sustainable Farming and Forestry
70. Build a Green Economy


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS
71. Launch a New Apollo Project
72. Level the Playing Field
73. Introduce a Carbon Tax and Rebate
74. Establish an Energy Efficiency Strategy
75. Establish a Renewable Energy Strategy
76. Establish a Zero Emissions Vehicles Strategy
77. Establish a Sustainable Transportation Strategy
78. Develop Sustainable Farming
79. Develop Sustainable Forestry
80. Steer Towards Sustainability


TEN SOLUTIONS FOR DEVELOPING NATIONS
81. Follow the Sustainable Path
82. Create Solar Villages
83. Build Ecological Cities
84. Learn from Gaviotas
85. Maximize your Energy Efficiency
86. Embrace Renewable Energy
87. Solutions for India
88. Solutions for China
89. Build Strong Citizens' Organizations
90. Demand Sustainability Adjustment Programs


TEN GLOBAL SOLUTIONS
91. Refresh and Renew the Kyoto Protocol
92. Launch a Global Green Deal
93. Establish a Global Climate Fund
94. Include Aviation
95. Accelerate the Phase-Out of CFCs, HCFCs & HFCs
96. Reform the Global Financial Institutions
97. Stop Global Deforestation
98. Build a Global Movement
99. Form a Global Ecological Alliance
100. Declare a Century of Ecological Restoration
101: Now, Think!
Thoughts?
Lots of woolly fluff. Actually, make that almost all fluff. It's very hard to take something that contains "41. Set New Goals" or "58. Become an Earth-Smart Company" seriously - I mean, what is that supposed to mean?

Shame, as the individual and cities sections have some interesting points, but overall they'd be very easy to dismiss by focusing any criticism on the fluff.

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Post by aristide1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:36 pm

"41. Set New Goals"
AKA Have the government stop kissing corporate oil's butt. Does that work for you?
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Post by qviri » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:00 pm

Title Case Is Annoying.
NeilBlanchard wrote:Thoughts?

29. Stop Sprawl: Plan for Smart Growth
Everything follows from this. The most important point in the fluff.
NeilBlanchard wrote:35. Buy Carbon Offsets
Seriously?
NeilBlanchard wrote:45. Encourage Residential Efficiency
There is one surefire way of doing that, but it tends to encourage people to call for government regulation of the energy markets...
NeilBlanchard wrote:61. Set Clear Goals
Oh. The. Irony.
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Post by aristide1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:18 pm

qviri wrote:There is one surefire way of doing that, but it tends to encourage people to call for government regulation of the energy markets....
The US average MPG rating has almost never gone up on it's own, and even when it did then not much. It mostly went up through the implementation of CAFE. While painful the US would be in an even worse position had it not been imposed.

Neil's plan is not totally pragmatic on many fronts. "Developers" are going to develop the cheapest land with the cheapest housing at the lowest cost for maximum profit, location and efficiency be damned. That's free enterprise at work if people are willing to buy the results, and they are. Some will take important issues into account and charge more, if the niche market is adequate enough and sustainable.
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Post by mattthemuppet » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:53 pm

aristide1 wrote:
"41. Set New Goals"
AKA Have the government stop kissing corporate oil's butt. Does that work for you?
That's your interpretation - could mean anything: 100% nuclear power by 2009, capture CO2 in canisters and fire it up into space by 2010, change the law to allow polygamy (though why you'd want to?) by 2011 - these are all "New Goals" too. That's what I mean by fluff - listen to any G8/ world trade/ OECD talks, all you get is "We pledge to do something about the environment in a non-binding way by sometime in the future" which translates into FA.

I'm all for initiatives and action and saving the environment, but making a list of vague and easily misinterpreted wishes is not going to change anything. All I can see this doing is providing an easily lampooned and dismissed target for climate change/ pollution sceptics.

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Post by aristide1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:16 pm

Neil wouldn't post non-sequiturs.
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Post by mattthemuppet » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:23 pm

aristide1 wrote:Neil wouldn't post non-sequiturs.
whatever mate, didn't realise that when someone puts "your thoughts" at the end of a post, only thoughts in confirmation of the post were allowed. I'm off.

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Post by aristide1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:42 pm

I simply said Neil wouldn't post off topic. Where you go, that's up to you.
I'm off.
I agree.
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Post by NeilBlanchard » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:17 pm

Hi folks,

I should have been more clear: the list I posted is the TOC from the book coauthored by Guy Dauncey, which covers the same topics he talked about in the DVD. The details are in each section, and there are lots of links to specifics.

The scope of what he covers is very wide, and there are a lot of details included in the book and in the DVD -- I was simply trying to open the door to the bits and parts of the discussion.

Is it fluffy? I'm quite sure that it is completely serious; anything but fluffy. The solutions to our problems are all pretty obvious, and they are very achievable.

The potential for renewable energy is at least 16X what we need, and it all can happen as soon as we decide to do it.
Sincerely, Neil
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Post by Bluefront » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:53 am

"The solutions to our problems are all pretty obvious"....... not true at all. China's solution to this problem has been to limit population growth by law. That certainly works.

We could implement such programs right here...... mandatory abortion, sterilization, birth control, sex education. All would limit population growth, which certainly would reduce future energy need. Anybody willing to promote that as an "obvious solution"?
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Post by jaganath » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:56 am

We could implement such programs right here...... mandatory abortion
mandatory abortion? are you kidding?! where do you think we live, Khmer Rouge-era Cambodia??? you might want to ask yourself why the idea of inviolable human rights is so abhorrent to you. Yes, I do agree that population growth reduction is a sensible plan to reduce resource depletion, but sterilisation and forced abortions (à la Hitler) is certainly not the way to go (and basically a non-starter in any free, Western democracy). China gets away with this because it is a totalitarian regime, unless you want to nominate yourself President For Life of the USA it ain't gonna happen. it's debatable how much effect the one-child policy actually had, as the income per capita of a country rises the birth rate naturally falls anyway, so cause and effect are by no means clear-cut.
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Post by NeilBlanchard » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:38 am

Hiya,
1. Grasp the Big Picture
Use renewable energy resources, instead of finite ones.

Be as efficient as possible, with all resources including water.

Eat locally produced, organic food.


The rest will take of itself.
Last edited by NeilBlanchard on Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

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