Obama Is Not Black

[Reachable]

Forgive me -- I wanted a provocative title.

Yet the fact remains that for a good part of the last two years, the news media (well, I've only been using the printed media: AP, Reuters; but I suspect that it's exactly the same from all avenues) has been harping on how Barack Obama is the first black nominee, the first possible black president and so forth.

This is not responsibly true, for it is not the concept that people really hold about race in the United States. Yes, you could say it, but to present it as the primary theme, that's not in the public interest. Now, if Jesse Jackson were to be elected President -- a person raised in the black culture, a descendant of slaves -- that would be the news story and that would be the awesome significance. Obama has black skin and would thus have unavoidable similarities of certain experiences and a sensitivity towards African-Americans, but that doesn't make the media's incessant headline description of him as such, accurate.

In pursuit of an 'angle' they keep it going, over and over again. In the primaries they stressed the ascendancies of Obama the first black, against Hillary the first woman, but even Hillary's case is a distortion, since her ascendancy was an attempted redux of her husband's presidency.

How is this harmful? Well, putting aside the fact that in the deepest generality it's not cool to not tell the truth and it violates journalism ethics, it also exacerbates racism and fans the flames of division.

It's easy to see how Jesse Jackson might be scary to some whites. It could be imagined that he harbors deep anger and mistrust towards them. Obama, with a white mother and having been raised in a midwest anglo family, couldn't possibly have that kind of emotional makeup.

This has been bothering me for a long time. The thought of those entrusted with keeping the public informed about what's going on painting vivid, simplistic pictures that provide fuel for ignorant passion, is painful for a number of reasons.

[klankymen]

So, one of the walls in my room is painted red. But the others all around it, as well as the ceiling, are white. Does that make it a white wall?

[Beyonder]

Obama Is Not Black

Umm, no. You are wrong. He is black. Obama gets to be black because A) that's the ethnic and cultural heritage he identifies with, and B) what is he supposed to call himself? White? Black? Should he preface every description of his ethnicity with a disclaimer that he is the produce of interracial marriage and thus some unspecified racial makeup?

According to Obama, the major reason he considers himself to be "black" (which is what's important here--not what the media decides to call him) is because he was treated like he was black:

KROFT: How important is race in defining yourself?

OBAMA: I think all of us in America and particularly African-Americans have to think about race at some point in our lives. The way I like to think about it, I am rooted in the African-American community, but I'm not defined by it. I am comfortable in my racial identity and recognize that I'm part of a very specific set of experiences in this country, but that's not the core of who I am. Another way of saying is that's not all I am.

KROFT: Your mother was white. Your father was African.

OBAMA: Right.

KROFT: You spent most of your life in a white household.

OBAMA: Yeah.

KROFT: I mean, you grew up white.

OBAMA: I'm not sure that would be true. I think what would be true is that I don't have the typical background of African-Americans. Not just because my mother was white, but because I grew up in Hawaii; I've spent time in Indonesia. There was all sorts of ethnicities and cultures that were swirling around my head as I was growing up. That's proven to be an enormous strength for me. It's part of the reason why I think I'm able to bring people together in ways that may be useful to the country. There were times where that was difficult. One of the things that helped me to resolve a lot of these issues is the realization that the African-American community, which I'm now very much a part of, is itself a hybrid community. It's African. It's European. It's Native American. So it's much more difficult to define what the essential African-American experience is, at least more difficult than what popular culture would allow. What I also realized is that the American experience is, by definition, a hybrid experience. I mean, you know one of the strengths of this country is that we have these people coming from, you know, all four corners of the globe converging, and sometimes in conflict, living side by side, and over time coming together to create this tapestry that is incredibly strong. And so, in that sense, I feel that my background ironically, because it's unusual, is quintessentially American.

KROFT: You were raised in a white household?

OBAMA: Right.

KROFT: Yet at some point, you decided that you were black?

OBAMA: Well, I'm not sure I decided it. I think if you look African-American in this society, you're treated as an African-American. And when you're a child in particular that is how you begin to identify yourself. At least that's what I felt comfortable identifying myself as.

KROFT: There are blacks who say that you don't carry the psychological burden of slavery, or growing up in Harlem, or the south side of Chicago as descendants of slaves, but that you're more recent-immigrant stock.

OBAMA: Right.

KROFT: What do you make of that whole debate?

OBAMA: I think [that’s] a small bunch of very intellectualized African-Americans, because that's not how I feel when I go into my barber shop to get my haircut. It’s not what I experience when a cab driver drives by and waves and says, "I'm rooting for you." What I think I will plead to is a different perspective on some of the racial issues that we face in the sense that I come at it with the assumption that there is racial prejudice in our society, that we do continue to carry the historical legacy of Jim Crow and slavery. We've never fully addressed that. It manifests itself in much higher rates of poverty and violence and lack of educational achievement in minority communities. But I know in my heart that there is a core decency to the American people, and that decency can be tapped. I think America is at the point now where if a white person has the time to get to know who you are, that they are willing on average to look beyond race and judge you as an individual. That doesn't mean that they've stopped making snap judgments. It doesn't mean that before I was Barack Obama, and I was just Barack Obama, that if I got into an elevator, a woman might not clutch her purse a little tighter. Or if I'm walking down the street, that you might not hear some clicks of doors locking, right. I mean, there's still a host of stereotypes that I think a lot of people are operating under. But I think if they have time to get to know you, they will judge you as they would judge anybody else, and I think that's enormous progress. We've made progress. Yes, things are better. But better is not good enough. And we've still got a long way to go.

KROFT: You think the country's ready for a black President?

OBAMA: Yes.

KROFT: You don't think it's going to hold you back?

OBAMA: No. I think if I don't win this race, it will be because of other factors. It's going to be because I have not shown to the American people a vision for where the country needs to go that they can embrace.

So, more or less, I completely disagree with you. Obama is "black," because he has a father of African descent and that is the racial and cultural heritage that he associates himself with. Whether or not you think otherwise is technically irrelevant, since by any legal metric he can safely consider himself black. It is also factually irrelevant, since Obama refers to himself as "black."

How is this harmful? Well, putting aside the fact that in the deepest generality it's not cool to not tell the truth and it violates journalism ethics, it also exacerbates racism and fans the flames of division.

This would be true were it not for the fact that Obama considers himself "black." This is clearly not a violation of any sort of journalistic integrity.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

His father was black and his mother was white. He is seen as a black man by most.

In the "old" days, there was a "one drop" rule -- that if you had one drop of "black blood", then you are black. A very strange rule, I think. It would make most of us into something...

It's just skin color, folks. There are no "races" of humans; just predisposition to skin color at birth.

----

And many whites are also descendants of slaves. They were called "indentured servants". So, maybe Barack Obama is descended from slaves -- on his mother's side?

That's the big difference between being the descendant of white slaves vs the descendant from black slaves -- the color of your skin makes it easier to know about.

[theycallmebruce]

It's easy to see how Jesse Jackson might be scary to some whites. It could be imagined that he harbors deep anger and mistrust towards them. Obama, with a white mother and having been raised in a midwest anglo family, couldn't possibly have that kind of emotional makeup.

I'm 80% of the way through his book. He associated with and identified with black people during his time at school and university in the United States. He was understandably angry and confused about the issue of "race" as a young man. Far from militant but certainly angry.

[Reachable]

The lead-in sentence in so many of these newspaper articles is Obama's 'race'. What I'm trying to say is that's too much emphasis. As it's turned out, it seems that there are parts of the electorate that aren't voting for him because of that race, numbers that are perhaps greater than what would have been had not so much attention been devoted to it. As the replies have pointed out, Obama himself is party to it. But he's not as intrinsically threatening a figure as an African-American with a more conventional upbringing would be, and he knows it.

Maybe it will all work out for the best.

As time goes on, the more transparently foolish the concept of race becomes to me, and the more frustrating it is that it still exerts such a tyranny. The politics of it and the history of it are totally apparent, but it would still all disappear if we could get rid of that stupid dichotomy from our intellects.

[andyb]

One thing that I really dislike about the whole ethnic minority issue in first world countries is not because they are treated differently because they are different (which is obvious and to be expected), but because they want to be treated differently and the law now sides with them to the point that ethnic minorities are treated as a higher class of human (in the UK).

People have been putting themselves into groups forever, but now people are putting themselves into groups via laws that disrupt rather than create unity.

Why is Obama "African-American" when McCain is not "European-American", this is at best bizzare. Likewise, why is it illegal for "White" people to use the offensive "N" word, but it is perfectlty fine for a "Black" person to use the "N" word.

If people in the US (and elsewhere) actually want to create unity, then they need to remove the words "Black", "White" and "African American" from the dictionary, and hold anyone accountable for the use of the "N" word - or allow its use by everyone. Currently there is essentially segregation via law that gives more power to "Black" people than "White" people, (remember that "South Park" episode that points out the stupidity of "Hate-Laws" very well indeed). This in itself is causing a fissure between people with different skin colours and should be abolished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartman%27 ... Crime_2000

The whole concept of helping minorities is fine, so long as the playing field is still level and everyone is considered and treated as equal which it currentlty is not.

Here in the UK, it is a standing joke (without the humour) that if you are a black muslim lesbian going for a job in any of the emergency services you are guaranteed a job. I know people who have applied for the police where none of the "White" appplicants got jobs (20 odd), yet 4 out of 5 of the "Black" applicants got jobs (this is due to regulation and not the quality of the applicants).

If people did not put themselves into groups of "Black" and "White", and there were no stupid regulations like the ones above there would instantly be far more unity between individuals because a lot of the resentment would vanish.

Taking it to the extreme just for fun, "Native-Americans" should be re-named as "Americans", and everyone else should be called "Invaders"

Back on-topic: Obama is as far as I am concerned not "Black", he is "half-caste" (pick your own name so long as it is not PC), I quite like "Grey" myself


Andy

[Klaatu]

Let's see how long he stays "not black" the first time he screws up once he takes office.

[dhanson865]

In the "old" days, there was a "one drop" rule -- that if you had one drop of "black blood", then you are black. A very strange rule, I think. It would make most of us into something...

A more modern standard (I'm thinking about a sitcom from the late 70s and early 80s) was the brown paper bag test. If your skin was darker than a brown paper bag you were of color. If your skin was lighter than the bag you were something else.

Been too many years for me to remember the terms they used but then again I've never seen anybody actually do the test. But if I did I'd have to give my best "What'chu talkin' bout Willis?"

Sorry, I grew up in the US but what I know of race issues is mostly from TV. It really has never been a significant problem in my life.

[Greg F.]

Several years ago a tv show featured some African American women who had traveled to someplace in Sub Saharan Africa simply as tourists and to "get in touch with their roots". These women related how they would be introduced to some women in Africa by their tour guides and the guides would mention that the women were from America and were African American. The women all remarked how the African women seemed confused. They were talking about how the women in that part of Africa, to whom they were talking, were very, very black. And the African American women were so comparatively light that the African women didn't see any "African" in them. So it can depend on who is doing the looking.
Where I live in the USA it is about 75% Latino. But what is Latino in this area can be very diverse. A person can have blond air and blue eyes and be named Gonzalez, maybe. Or look very much like a dark Mexican and have a Scandinavian surname. Not typically, but not that unusual anymore.

[Reachable]

One thing about participating in a discussion is that it can ultimately lead to a change in point of view. I support Obama in the election, and I was concerned that the media coverage of the black/white issue was having a negative effect. Now I see that he's taken something he initially saw as a liability and turned it into an asset, and the coverage of it has probably helped him.

[Ruu]

Why is Obama "African-American" when McCain is not "European-American"

Mm, I would argue that Obama isn't "African-American" in the first place; that's just some silly politically-correct term that lawmakers like to use to indicate that they're being sensitive or somesuch.

Thus, McCain is not "European-American" because tacking on the "European" bit is a response to the tacked on "African" bit. If the tacked on "African" bit makes no sense in the first place, the tacked on "European" bit makes even less so.

I have met "real" African-Americans here in the U.S.---first-generation folks from Nigeria---and they are rather culturally and behaviorally different from blacks in the U.S. In my opinion, a person who identifies themselves as "black" shouldn't be called "African-American" because that's a totally different thing. That's akin to calling Chinese people Japanese and then pointing to cultural similarities and shared skin color.

That said, it seems that in the U.S., if a person is part white and part something else, the person usually grows up more attenuated to the something else part. Hence Obama's blackness, hence the media's jumping all over it because it's there. I suspect that, for many white Americans, race is an issue simply because race exists, and for a white American, who really doesn't have any race to speak of, it's difficult trying to figure out how to relate to an issue that they simply have not and cannot experience. Meanwhile, half the non-whites are trying to make race as small of an issue as possible, while the other half are trying to bring it to the forefront. And so the media goes every which way, the end result being that it seems like they're talking about race all the time.

I don't know how an ethnic person in Europe identifies himself or is identified, but since white can in fact be an ethnicity in Europe (as it cannot in the U.S.), I suspect that the dynamics of race should be pretty different there.

[jaganath]

since white can in fact be an ethnicity in Europe (as it cannot in the U.S.),

run that by me one more time? so white is an ethnicity in Europe, but not in the US, even though most whites in the US are in fact European in origin anyway? who do illogical positions like this often crop up in debates about race?

[andyb]

I suspect that, for many white Americans, race is an issue simply because race exists, and for a white American, who really doesn't have any race to speak of, it's difficult trying to figure out how to relate to an issue that they simply have not and cannot experience

So "White" American's dont have any race to speak of............ You have just offended 200 Million people in the US alone...... Doh

Meanwhile, half the non-whites are trying to make race as small of an issue as possible, while the other half are trying to bring it to the forefront. And so the media goes every which way, the end result being that it seems like they're talking about race all the time.

Thats (part of) my point.

I don't know how an ethnic person in Europe identifies himself or is identified, but since white can in fact be an ethnicity in Europe (as it cannot in the U.S.), I suspect that the dynamics of race should be pretty different there.

This is something that really frustrates me in the UK with forms that need to be filled in (government mostly).

White, Black, Green, Turqiose etc are NOT races, yet they are on forms, I always tick the box labelled "Other" and then either put down "English", "British" or "Anglo-Saxon" depending on my mood. I find the concept of being described as "White" very offensive, firstly I am more pink than "White", and secondly "White" is not a description of race at all, and never has been. Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Afro-Carribean etc etc are all on the list, but British is not which is surprising considering the vast majority of our populous are actually British and not "White".

but since white can in fact be an ethnicity in Europe (as it cannot in the U.S.

What are "White" Americans called.???


Andy

[fri2219]

Yep, that's right. I just wanted your attention.

If this had been a TV program, typical narcissistic weblog, or radio show, you would have generated advertising revenue.

Thank you for your time, and remember to keep on keepin on, man.

[Ruu]

since white can in fact be an ethnicity in Europe (as it cannot in the U.S.),

run that by me one more time?

Lol. I just reread what I originally posted, and in fact it sounds completely nonsensical. Let me try to clarify myself a bit, can I? It's not that OT.

Most Caucasian people in the U.S. are of European descent, but rarely do they identify themselves by their heritage. It's also not that big of a deal to them: "Oh, yeah, my great-grandparents were German. Meh. Yeah, I'm not really anything. I'm just... white."

I think that if you asked a German person (a person who identified themselves as German) if the above person were German, the German would say no, and the above person wouldn't be offended by it.

My "white is an ethnicity in Europe" comment was entirely poorly worded---I meant that a Caucasian person in Europe will most likely identify themselves as something other than "white"---British, Irish, Polish, French, Spanish, whatever. A Caucasian person in the U.S. will probably not identify themselves in a similar manner and will default to "white" and not really find the defaulting offensive or worth discussing.

In retrospect, perhaps I was being (embarrassingly) literal and also equating "white" with "Caucasian"---a... erm, a "white" European can call himself something other than "white," something that an American would have a hard time doing convincingly.

At any rate, I worded the whole thing was horrendously, so sorry for any offense or confusion.

As far as Obama goes, maybe the media makes Obama's race/ethnicity such a talking point because there's no obvious way for Caucasian Americans to identify themselves as a cohesive group, but, at the same time, they see something in Obama that identifies him as not of the same group. That is, it cannot be said that Americans of British descent share sociocultural similarities with other Americans of British descent, traits that are not shared by Americans of German descent. Caucasian Americans simply don't view themselves that way, and American culture doesn't play out that way.

The awkward bit comes in, however, when white Americans look at Obama and go, "This person is not of my group, even though I can't exactly figure out what my group is." The group could be Catholic or evangelical or middle-class or college-educated or whatever, but there is a sense that whatever the defining characteristic of the group is, Obama doesn't have it, and therefore they won't vote for him.

It becomes even more awkward and embarrassing when you realize that the only characteristic that it could be is skin color. I mean, aren't we past all that already?

The media, being run mostly by white Americans, wants to talk about Obama being notwhite without saying something as crass as, "...well... he's not white colored." Then again, I think it'd be equally weird if they ignored it altogether....

I dunno. Talking about race and ethnicity is usually pretty complicated. I eventually lose track of what I'm talking about, lol.

[Greg F.]

Yep, that's right. I just wanted your attention.

If this had been a TV program, typical narcissistic weblog, or radio show, you would have generated advertising revenue.

Thank you for your time, and remember to keep on keepin on, man.

Oh yes, the Rush Limbaugh paradigm.

[NeilBlanchard]

Please (re)read my post above.

Thanks.

[Ralf Hutter]

What are "White" Americans called.???


Andy

Hmmm. I'm fairly used to being called "honkey", "oppressor", "the man" and "whitey". :->

[andyb]

Hmmm. I'm fairly used to being called "honkey", "oppressor", "the man" and "whitey". :->

LOL, thats quite funny, somehow though none of that is offensive. "The Man" sounds quite good, "Whitey" and "Honkey" I dont deem them to be offensive at all, and "Opressor" has a certain ring of "Power" to it

But seriously what are "White" people called in the US, and do you find it offensive like I do when its used as a description of your "Race".?


Andy

[Ruu]

But seriously what are "White" people called in the US, and do you find it offensive like I do when its used as a description of your "Race".?

"White" people in the U.S. are called all manner of things by people who are not white... "honkey," "oppressor," "the man," and "whitey" amongst them. I'm being serious. Obviously such terms are not used by most non-whites, but a portion of people who use such terms exist---it's not just an exaggeration.

Most non-whites call white people "white." That's all.

White people call themselves nothing, really. The topic seriously does not come up; it does not occur to them that they should be offended. They are "white," and that is the most they can be. I can perfectly understand a British person being offended at being called white because, hey, he's not "just" white, he's more specifically British. But a white American can't use that same argument---he can't go, Hey, no, I'm offended, you can't call me "white," you should call me "German-Polish-Irish-with-a-little-bit-of-Scottish." Such a distinction makes no sense to a white American. They really don't care.

Maybe it's not that they consider themselves "white" as there's really no proper term for what they consider themselves. "American" is too broad, but since many sub-American groups make distinctions ("I'm American and I'm black," "I'm American and I'm Asian," "I'm American and I'm Hispanic"), a white American goes along with it and says, "All right, I'm American, and... I guess I'm just white."

I really don't know anyone here who finds being called white insulting. The general attitude seems to be one of, "Why not? It applies." I guess it's quite different in Europe? Maybe it's also different in the large coastal U.S. cities, where a bigger population allows one to make more precise distinctions between groups?

[andyb]

They are "white," and that is the most they can be.

I do hope that the above statement was as badly written in error as your previous fubar statement.

I can perfectly understand a British person being offended at being called white because, hey, he's not "just" white, he's more specifically British. But a white American can't use that same argument---he can't go, Hey, no, I'm offended, you can't call me "white," you should call me "German-Polish-Irish-with-a-little-bit-of-Scottish." Such a distinction makes no sense to a white American. They really don't care.

Maybe it's not that they consider themselves "white" as there's really no proper term for what they consider themselves. "American" is too broad

So "White" Americans are "White", but "Black" Americans are "African-American", it seems to me that only the darker shade of Americans are actually American, the rest of them (you.?) are simply "White"....... I still dont understand this mentality at all - the huge populous of America's race is "White" and NOT American, but the minority IS American.

since many sub-American groups make distinctions ("I'm American and I'm black," "I'm American and I'm Asian," "I'm American and I'm Hispanic"), a white American goes along with it and says, "All right, I'm American, and... I guess I'm just white."

As I said before, why is there African-American, and Asian-American, but no European-American, this at best seems stupid, at worst seems racist and offensive because the minorities are being given power over and above the majority simply because they are a minority. I am sure that several minority leaders (spokesmen) would throw a wobbly if "White" Americans started calling themselves "European-American".


Andy

[Ruu]

First of all, I'm sorry to belabor the point here, especially since it seems that I'm offending people, which I don't mean to do. To be honest, I'm especially interested in hearing opinions from Europe because I think the attitudes about what exactly "white" means is very different in the U.S. than in Europe.

So "White" Americans are "White", but "Black" Americans are "African-American"....... I still dont understand this mentality at all

The whole "African-American" terminology thing is totally stupid. Totally stupid, and you are right to call it out as such. I do suspect that I speak for the more linguistically attuned Americans when I say that the terms "African-American" and "black" are completely not exchangeable and refer to two distinct cultures.

why is there African-American, and Asian-American, but no European-American

This is a very good question, and I don't know the answer, but I am telling you that this is the way it is---in the U.S., there exists a black culture and an Asian-American culture and a Hispanic culture and various others... and there of course is the dominant majority "white" culture, but we as Americans haven't come up with any other term to describe this majority culture as anything other than "white".

Perhaps we should call ourselves "European-American" instead of white, but Europe is such a huge and diverse place---isn't it presumptuous to just lump all of Europe together into one category and then imply that we are a variation of that lumping? That seems unfair to Europe, surely.

I suppose, then, that the discussion comes down to this: "white" Americans call themselves "white" because they haven't come up with a better term, and they do not see the possible problems with this term, and they do not see how this term could be misconstrued, and when such possibilities are pointed out, they will most of them acknowledge the potential misues and misunderstandings of the term "white" but fail to see the significance.

Ultimately, we Americans---white or no---all recognize ourselves as American. That much should be made clear. It's not as if white people mentally exclude themselves from being defined as an American; of course not! We are talking about sub-divisions, here---a person living in London, for example, might view himself as a Londoner first, a British citizen second, a European third. I am saying that the same types of sub-defining and sub-categorizing exist in the U.S., but they are much harder to delineate because there are no obvious lines.

Perhaps the whole discussion is ultimately a linguistic discussion? Makes the conclusions less useful but still interesting. I mean, people can't help sub-dividing themselves in their heads: two local schools are sports rivals, two neighboring states have totally different political ideologies, two separate groups of people within the same country identify themselves differently.

I don't know why it works like this; I'm just saying that this is definitely the way it works in the U.S: white people are simply "white," not European-American. This is the way it works in their own heads; this is the way it works in non-whites' heads. I offer no defense for the word itself nor for the thought process. But I do think that I have accurately represented the method.

On a note related to the original topic, we have just elected our first black president. Half the networks are calling him African-American. Everyone's confused!

[seemingly.random]

Hmmm. I'm fairly used to being called "honkey", "oppressor", "the man" and "whitey". :->

LOL, thats quite funny, somehow though none of that is offensive. "The Man" sounds quite good, "Whitey" and "Honkey" I dont deem them to be offensive at all, and "Opressor" has a certain ring of "Power" to it

But seriously what are "White" people called in the US, and do you find it offensive like I do when its used as a description of your "Race".?

Andy

Some are called crackers and white/trailer trash in addition to the above - lots of them were I live.

But most are called white if there needs to be a differentiation made.

I don't find it offensive. I usually just feel pity or disgust for people who are still hung up on this crap.

[xan_user]

In this case I would say the race you belong to is the one that claims you as a member most openly.

Since Iv'e yet to see many Caucasians claim Obama is white, I'll side with the popular acceptance by "African -Americans" that he is in fact black.


You do all realize even brown paper bags are a lot lighter than they used to be...right?



"Black man, black woman, black baby / White man, white woman, white baby / White man, black woman, black baby / Black man, white woman, black baby."


-Public Enemy.

[andyb]

The question, and indeed answer has only just caught up with some of us.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americ ... 735503.stm

The way I have always defined anyones race as is as follows:

Do they speak English with a native accent and as their first language, do they support England vs Other Countries in sport, do they interact with other English persons that surround them or do they alight with another group that the feel they fit better within.

I have met many and numerous people who answer yes/no/sometimes/maybe to the above questions, but unlike other questions people ask, mine do not have any bias regarding skin colour or religion. They do however bias against their previous generations upbrining of them in relation to their view of England vs "The Mother Country", and religion if it forbids/inhibits equality/fredom/social etiquette (niqab/burqa AKA "Devils Postbox").

Obama is Grey, but because of his skin colour people see him as Black, yet his upbringing, education and indeed near future job position say he is White. He is Grey all over.


Andy

[Ruu]

That was a really interesting article. Thank you for sharing.

And good for Kimberly McClain DaCosta for learning how to live with the contradictions. Some people are not, I suppose, so lucky.

Race is a stupid way of defining anybody---I think everybody who's posted in this thread is in agreement there. But it doesn't seem like that it's going to go away anytime soon. In the meantime, its conventions will continue to be discussed, dissected, disagreed over.

Do they speak English with a native accent and as their first language

If they answer "yes," does that mean that they're classified as English (as far as you're concerned, or legally)? Just curious. Many people in the U.S. think that English should be mandated as the national language; I know of at least one person who's lived in the U.S. for 10+ years and only learned enough English to get nationalized. Very strange guy, lol.

Edit for typos.

[andyb]

Do they speak English with a native accent and as their first language.

I would say thats totally nuts, but it happens here as well. This is why I believe that if people dont want to even attempt to integrate before they arrive they should be turned away at the door.

You see exactly the same thing all over the place, take a nightclub, posh bar/restaurant, or even some bouncer guarded pubs as a perfect example. If you dont turn up wearing the things that they expect you dont get in.

But you ARE allowed into a country to stay when you barely know 10 words, if you were that badly dressed you would be wearing a bow-tie. The police would pick you up for indecent exposure, some people say that its "racist"..... bullshit. Its highly offensive and "racist" to move to a country and not even attempt to learn the native language or anything else about the country or its people.

If people dont want to integrate they are foreign, if they are foreign then they are on holiday send them home after 2 weeks. Its so simple but everyone is branded as a racst the moment they suggest what I have just typed. Am I racist.???

If they answer "yes," does that mean that they're classified as English (as far as your concerned, or legally)? Just curious. Many people in the U.S. think that English should be mandated as the national language; I know of at least one person who's lived in the U.S. for 10+ years and only learned enough English to get nationalized. Very strange guy, lol.

My answer is NO, they should be deported along with any family members or friends who obviously are NOT American at all. Half of the Populous of Leeds and Bradford in England might fall into that category from an outsiders point of view as they dress, act, behave and seem foreign in every way but the vast majority's parents and grandparent have been born in this country, and they speak English. The problem there though is slightly different, although the all speak English and were born here the are very Indian (and surrounding areas), this is due to a lack of intigration at the time. Integration is happening right now in those areas, but if the imigrants of yesteryear were spead more thinly rather than all hording into a group we wouldnt be faced with Little India right now.

London is a huge melting pot of the planets populous, apart from the obvious fact that I am anti-mass-immigration this is far better than Leeds and Bradford in many ways. The sheer diversity of the people is extreme, the fact that London is full of second, third and beyond generations of immigrants from various parts of the world makes life much easier for new immigrants to blend in and mingle. But over the years London has become one of the least "English" parts of England and every day my ears are a witness to a new Language.

I agree with most of the rules that the BNP state regarding immigration (so long as you ignore the bits about race - think country/different language instead). But f course they are a racist party, I cant stand by them, but they are the only political party in the UK that really has a clue about this, no other political party is willing to take the risk of looking like they are racist - yet is it not racist against the majority of the people in our land to let hundreds of thousands of people into the country when they cant even be bothered to learn how to speak our language.


Andy

[qviri]

I find it highly amusing when people rant about those who do not attempt to learn the language of the country they are in and in the same post demonstrate their lack of command of the same language.

"Populous" is an adjective. "Populace" is a noun.


/Jarek, integratin' in a doubly-foreign country

[xan_user]

I find it highly amusing when people rant about those who do not attempt to learn the language of the country they are in and in the same post demonstrate their lack of command of the same language.

"Populous" is an adjective. "Populace" is a noun.


/Jarek, integratin' in a doubly-foreign country

As soon as the USA adopts a native American as its legal language its all mute. English has been in this Continent for less than 500 years. Nowhere near the 3000 years since the native wrote their language on a rock. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... vered.html

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Speaking of that... Under the premise, "Do they speak English with a native accent and as their first language." what country does a deaf/mute come from if he/she only knows international sign?