The Obama Deception

karl · Post by **karl** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:19 am

If anyone can predict the future to figure out how all of this is going to turn out, I'd sure like to ask a few questions regarding lottery numbers.

-karl

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:38 pm

xan_user wrote:
Our fore fathers depended on the ten commandments to keep greed in check rather than law, unfortunately it didn't work out so well.
Its unfortunate that we need government regulation to curb the profit raping of the public and the environment by our current corpacracy, but we need to end this unrelenting economic slavery somehow, and soon.

I don't like the way the world is either. I can't see any way out that doesn't involve a huge amount of hardship for millions around the world. Maybe even war.
The current situation might have been the time for change - by not bailing out the corporations that have gone tits up, something different might have evolved, but I don't think any government would take the chance. The repercussions would be enormous.

What would you like to see?

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:59 pm

Clean out the corpacracy

Every ceo and elected public official should have a picture of a guillotine in their office to remind them what can happen when they become oppressive.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:42 am

A French type revolution would be very bad. I think we need a another American type revolution--just at a different scale. Specifically a universal voluntary constitutional republic. A borderless free country formed by anyone anywhere who is brave enough to belong to it. It's an idea.

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:21 am

Just add corporations and you got corporocracy again...

Actually, that would come very close to what some of the old anarchists thought of as utopia...

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:47 am

Where's the change? Well the US won't be handing blank check after blank check to Halliburton over the next 8 years. As far as change goes that's a good start.

Actually this thread could have been called - Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

You have to wonder why the press was as slanted towards Obama as it was slanted towards war after 9/11. How does either one represent a true free press? Unless this there is some substance to this video.

The other question is if the Bilderberg group is as small as elite as they are portrayed then how can so many members be in the administration? Coincidence?

smilingcrow · Post by **smilingcrow** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:00 pm

ACook wrote:This all seems to come from ppl who just don't trust government period. After Clinton's sexual shenanigans and Bush's wayward war machine, I can't blame'm. Add to that the complete brakedown in trust of the financial sector and you have serious trust issues with any authority figure. This all while many of these figures should know better, after what they went through in the 60s.

Who out there still expects governments to have the balls to make difficult decisions that will be unpopular with the electorate and big business. Anybody?

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:53 pm

The only one that will remotely even true are the ones on their last term in office, where they have no need to cater to the whims of the voters. Of course that only applies to a government that represents its people.

But in this corporacracy and with the latest bail outs it seems we're being shoveled the unpopular stuff right from the get go.

Added - http://www.zazzle.com/end_the_bailouts_ ... 3880866140

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:21 pm

Definition of change:

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:23 pm

QuietOC wrote:A French type revolution would be very bad. I think we need a another American type revolution--just at a different scale. Specifically a universal voluntary constitutional republic. A borderless free country formed by anyone anywhere who is brave enough to belong to it. It's an idea.

And when that's done then we do what the French did, so they don't come back.

By the way, the current government will waste no time labeling you and anyone else a terrorist by their definition.

This guy was a novice compared to what the public is in for if they stand up for their rights today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy

Let's not overlook that Joe was another republican extremist hard at work, like so many we have today.

johnxp · Post by **johnxp** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:38 am

smilingcrow wrote:
ACook wrote:This all seems to come from ppl who just don't trust government period. After Clinton's sexual shenanigans and Bush's wayward war machine, I can't blame'm. Add to that the complete brakedown in trust of the financial sector and you have serious trust issues with any authority figure. This all while many of these figures should know better, after what they went through in the 60s.
Who out there still expects governments to have the balls to make difficult decisions that will be unpopular with the electorate and big business. Anybody?

anyone who expects such thing is a fool

walle · Post by **walle** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:40 am

There are many ways you can look at this, this is just but one.

Most are like the woman who is being abused by her husband, in the sense that they keep coming back for more expecting them to change, then they get a new one (using metaphor) and presto; next week theyâ€™re abused again yet with this notion that this time it will be different, having retained nothing from the previous experience right. This is one of the ways you can view peoples relationship to those in power, coming back for more and worse still; turning to the abuser deluding themselves enough into thinking that the abuser will help them out!, say what? but as with the woman who are being abused can not see the abuse, blaming herself, sometimes defending it even, as do those expecting help and change from those in power.

Things may appear different but they are still the same, and just because someone has their faced smacked and someone else their head slammed against the wall doesnâ€™t change anything but their perception, it is still the same.

johnxp wrote:anyone who expects such thing is a fool

Not that easy, besides, Iâ€™m a fool myself and can therefore relate to it.

This is one way of looking at it and people are free to make of it as they wish, naturally.

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:10 am

The way you lot are moaning, anyone would think we're still living in the days of the Industrial revolution when people worked in 'The Dark Satanic Mills' for barely enough pay to feed and clothe themselves, let alone buy computer(s) and flat screen colour HDTV's.
Employees have NEVER had it so good.
We don't send kids up chimneys anymore to sweep them.
Miners don't die of silicosis anymore - unless you're Chinese or Bolivian.
Health and Safety rules the workplace and there is a minimum wage.

Isn't anybody going to look at the positive changes that have been made?

blackworx · Post by **blackworx** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:51 am

lol, it's precisely because of these positive changes that society has so much free time for such navel-gazing. Bring back the Victorian ethic, put up and shut up!

Seriously though, the language used in that documentary is very emotive and the language used by many people to attack what they see as very wrong can be even more emotive. Regardless of that, if you're talking about the whole population of the planet rather than us privileged few, a significant proportion of which is definitely stuck in that backwards world, basically working to pay taxes to service loans we made to their corrupt leaders. I'm not saying ooh nasty banks or ooh nasty leaders here - I'm just saying that life really does suck fat ones for most people.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:34 am

judge56988 wrote:Employees have NEVER had it so good.

You seem to have confused the masses with the CEOs.

And just because my standard of living is higher is that justification to getting screwed left and right? Crime and lack of ethics needs a minimum living standard before it becomes an issue? Is that what you are suggesting?

You also neglected that the standard of living is about to start falling, and at a furious pace. Ask anybody who thinks they are going to spend the next 25 years collecting Social Security.

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:27 pm

aristide1 wrote:
judge56988 wrote:Employees have NEVER had it so good.
You seem to have confused the masses with the CEOs.

Not in the slightest.

I've been working for almost 30 years and the workplace is safer than it ever has been. People are living longer and generally are healthier than they ever have been, obesity being one exception to this, and people can become so obese because they have far more spare cash to spend than ever before. The "stuff" people have these days, and by stuff I mean computers, cell phones, gadgets, cars etc. etc. is beyond the wildest dreams I had as a kid; and most of it gets thrown away after just a year or two to be replaced by a newer shinier version.
People in the West have never had so much disposable income - whether that's a good or bad thing is debatable - even people on welfare have satellite TV and DVD players, they can still afford to smoke and drink too.

Where has all this abundance come from?
Could it be from the global corporations that you so hate?

And apart from paying large salaries to CEO's, where do the rest of the profits go? They go to shareholders, many of which are pension funds that will hopefully be able to pay my pension when (if) the time comes.

I'm not saying that I approve of all this conspicuous consumption by the West, but that's the way the world is now and if anyone wants to change it, there's going to be an awfully large number of pissed off people out there who will say NO to that change.

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:53 pm

Over here the companies that promise decent retirement benefits rarely end up paying them out, the CEO's figure out how to do away with employee pensions ect. , for the sake of shareholder profits, right as a worker's retirement age is reached. That or the CEO drives the company into the ground, takes a fat bonus and the workers are out on the street with nothing to show for their 30 years of commitment.

The US corpacracy is just slave labor,except the working class pays to feed, cloth and houses itself, rather than depending on the master for such items.

We dont need a full out French style revolution, not yet. Just publicize the overly greedy corporate profit pigs and let the public serve up the justice. Just a few heads rolling will send a strong message to CEO's that people's futures should not be gambled with like its some televised Vegas poker game.

walle · Post by **walle** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:41 pm

xan_user wrote:We dont need a full out French style revolutionâ€¦

Letâ€™s keep it that way; a revolution would end up in anarchy with people rising up only to have their heads cut off!

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:10 pm

judge56988 wrote:I've been working for almost 30 years and the workplace is safer than it ever has been.

Safer from what? Being told when you're 65 that the pension you were promised doesn't exist? You didn't bother to check the "Do you feel safer?" thread, did you. Few share your illusion.

judge56988 wrote: People are living longer and generally are healthier than they ever have been, obesity being one exception to this, and people can become so obese because they have far more spare cash to spend than ever before. The "stuff" people have these days, and by stuff I mean computers, cell phones, gadgets, cars etc. etc. is beyond the wildest dreams I had as a kid; and most of it gets thrown away after just a year or two to be replaced by a newer shinier version.

So just to be clear, your standard of living rises 3X and the CEO's standard of living rises 300X, and hey, hurray for you. That is of course until he outsources your job.

judge56988 wrote:People in the West have never had so much disposable income - whether that's a good or bad thing is debatable - even people on welfare have satellite TV and DVD players, they can still afford to smoke and drink too.

Where has all this abundance come from?

The addiction to credit?

judge56988 wrote:Could it be from the global corporations that you so hate?

Ah, yes, we're clear now. It's OK to be financially raped if we still have enough, that's your entire argument. What a lovely thought.

judge56988 wrote:And apart from paying large salaries to CEO's, where do the rest of the profits go? They go to shareholders, many of which are pension funds that will hopefully be able to pay my pension when (if) the time comes.

Have you looked at what's happened to your portfolio lately by the people you're trying to make look good? Why don't you do some research on a company like Bethlehem Steel. And please don't blame competition and that, that company never modernized anything. Management dug the whole, destroyed pensions, sold assets, and walked away rich.

judge56988 wrote:I'm not saying that I approve of all this conspicuous consumption by the West, but that's the way the world is now and if anyone wants to change it, there's going to be an awfully large number of pissed off people out there who will say NO to that change.

Depends on how you define change.

Some famous quotes, first a response about being insane:

What if I told you insane was working fifty hours a week in some office for fifty years at the end of which they tell you to piss off; ending up in some retirement village hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time? Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?

You think any CEO's have this concern?

And this was just a casual observation:

You know, Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them fu__ing each other over for a goddamn percentage.

Perhaps you know other species that are worse, or is it all just my imagination, which seems to have been absorbed by others via some sort of psychic powers?

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:23 pm

Aristide, taking your ripostes to my post one by one:

By 'a safe workplace' I mean fewer accidents and less exposure to hazardous substances because companies spend money on health and safety measures; that is the commonly accepted meaning of the phrase, as you are probably aware.

My standard of living goes up 3x - nice for me. I really don't give a flying f**k how the CEO does. I've not got a chip on my shoulder and I'm not a particularly jealous type.
For the record, I'm self employed so my job can't be outsourced and I suppose that means I'm CEO of myself...

Addiction to credit? The only credit I've ever had was my mortgage, everything else I own is bought and paid for, so I put that down to a generally higher standard of living and greater availability of cheap goods... produced by those despicable corporations.

I really don't understand who gets 'financially raped' - are you living in poverty? You presumably have a job, otherwise you'd be on welfare which is hardly being raped. Are you talking about taxes? What?

As to pensions - yes there are some crooks out there, like our own late Robert Maxwell for instance; but honestly, they aren't all like that. You have such a cynical view on things. You read about a few nasty c***s and go and tar everyone with the same brush. I read about your high school shootings but I don't think every American student is a mass murderer.

"Depends on how you define change" - I define change as 'something different taking the place of what is current' how do you define it? Vive la revolution!??

Out of curiosity, presumably you don't actually buy any of the products of these corporations that you despise so much? Because that would be the easiest way to secure their downfall. If everyone felt the same and boycotted the merchandise they'd all go bust.
Of course another way would be to try and get some political power - join (or form) a party of like minded people and get out on the streets and canvas support. Stand for election, make use of this democratic society we live in.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:49 pm

judge56988 wrote:By 'a safe workplace' I mean fewer accidents and less exposure to hazardous substances because companies spend money on health and safety measures; that is the commonly accepted meaning of the phrase, as you are probably aware.

So developing ulcers is OK with you. Doesn't work for most people.

judge56988 wrote:My standard of living goes up 3x - nice for me. I really don't give a flying f**k how the CEO does.

Thank God most people get the big picture, even stock holders.

judge56988 wrote: I've not got a chip on my shoulder and I'm not a particularly jealous type. For the record, I'm self employed so my job can't be outsourced and I suppose that means I'm CEO of myself...

So as far as working for others you state a view and have zero experience. How useful. Not really. Where I work every time a boss asks a person to step into the office they get sick to their stomach by the time they get there. How could you even have a clue about working in such an environment?

judge56988 wrote:Addiction to credit? The only credit I've ever had was my mortgage, everything else I own is bought and paid for, so I put that down to a generally higher standard of living and greater availability of cheap goods... produced by those despicable corporations.

Newsflash - you are not the world. Not even close. Doesn't revolve around you either. Sorry about that old chap.

judge56988 wrote:I really don't understand who gets 'financially raped' - are you living in poverty? You presumably have a job, otherwise you'd be on welfare which is hardly being raped. Are you talking about taxes? What?

What's the problem? That's a simple one; the fact you can ask that question.

judge56988 wrote:As to pensions - yes there are some crooks out there, like our own late Robert Maxwell for instance; but honestly, they aren't all like that. You have such a cynical view on things. You read about a few nasty c***s and go and tar everyone with the same brush. I read about your high school shootings but I don't think every American student is a mass murderer.

And of course you're in a position to judge what's correct and apparently to hand out sentence as well. Thanks for the laugh.

judge56988 wrote:"Depends on how you define change" - I define change as 'something different taking the place of what is current' how do you define it? Vive la revolution!??

And you have the ability to see what's changed and what hasn't? Who would agree with that?

judge56988 wrote:Out of curiosity, presumably you don't actually buy any of the products of these corporations that you despise so much?

Assumptions not in evidence, because you can't get the correct picture. The problem is ethics and crime, which seems to be beyond your grasp in your little private Idaho. Actually being a boss you're the one with the bias, notice nobody has agreed with you.

judge56988 wrote:Because that would be the easiest way to secure their downfall. If everyone felt the same and boycotted the merchandise they'd all go bust.Of course another way would be to try and get some political power - join (or form) a party of like minded people and get out on the streets and canvas support. Stand for election, make use of this democratic society we live in.

When was the last time that worked?

By the way there's a fair amount of flexibility with names here. Why did you pick Judge and not PureArrogance?

xan_user wrote:Over here the companies that promise decent retirement benefits rarely end up paying them out, the CEO's figure out how to do away with employee pensions ect. , for the sake of shareholder profits, right as a worker's retirement age is reached. That or the CEO drives the company into the ground, takes a fat bonus and the workers are out on the street with nothing to show for their 30 years of commitment.

Maybe it has to do with the British system of civil law.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:33 pm

Hey Xan,

I don't know if your watch CSI or not but a while back there was an episode about a woman who could barely make end meet, living paycheck to paycheck. She ended up murdering her boss. She later explained that she worked a constant 38 hours a week, but not an hour more. The boss did that because at 40 hours she would have gotten medical coverage, for herself and her kid, but the boss didn't want to pay. The irony was I had just quit a job where that had happened to me as well, along with shorting me hours. Other people who were laid off, they were told that they may be rehired, but if they attempted to collect unemployment benefits in the mean time they would not be rehired. Such threats are illegal but good luck substantiating a phone call.

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:10 pm

aris,

as a single father of two young children, put me on that jury. Please.

the worker has gotten systematically more and more screwed by big corporations each and every year, just so a few lazy greedy sinners for god can own the "free" world.

we're going to need something a bit bigger than a "viva la revolution" if this "change" doesn't get the pigs back in line real quick.

I have know idea how things compare in brittan, but over here there is not one family I know that has not suffered from the bullshit lie that is trickle down capitalism.

our economy is no better than the madoff scam, the only real difference is after the greedy corps rape all they can from the working class, they can just get the fed to print more money and then charge the interest back to us as inflation.

its the ultimate ponzi scheme.

[quote]"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government
... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people
should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the
establishment of another like it."
---
â€œI sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money are more dangerous to liberty than standing armiesâ€

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:13 am

People are living longer and generally are healthier than they ever have been, obesity being one exception to this, and people can become so obese because they have far more spare cash to spend than ever before

this is not true. the cheap food which are all most poor people can afford, are full of calories and saturated fat, however there is very little actual nutrition in them. Bernard Matthews, frozen burgers, etc are very cheap, however they are also very bad for you and this is the cause of obesity, a poor diet caused by low disposable income.

People in the West have never had so much disposable income - whether that's a good or bad thing is debatable - even people on welfare have satellite TV and DVD players

Again, this does not prove that disposable income has increased. This has happened because the price of consumer electronics has fallen drastically due to the huge manufacturing power of China.

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:33 am

jaganath wrote:
People are living longer and generally are healthier than they ever have been, obesity being one exception to this, and people can become so obese because they have far more spare cash to spend than ever before
this is not true. the cheap food which are all most poor people can afford, are full of calories and saturated fat, however there is very little actual nutrition in them. Bernard Matthews, frozen burgers, etc are very cheap, however they are also very bad for you and this is the cause of obesity, a poor diet caused by low disposable income.

People in the West have never had so much disposable income - whether that's a good or bad thing is debatable - even people on welfare have satellite TV and DVD players
Again, this does not prove that disposable income has increased. This has happened because the price of consumer electronics has fallen drastically due to the huge manufacturing power of China.

My father didn't have any clothes that were not second hand until he was 21. That's poor. They had NO disposable income. It was a struggle to be able to afford food. Things are better now.

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:00 am

aristide1 wrote: So developing ulcers is OK with you. Doesn't work for most people.

Is that the best you can do?

Take the Hoover dam:

"Construction period: April 20, 1931 â€“ March 1, 1936
Construction cost: $49 million ($676 million adjusted for inflation)
Deaths attributed to construction: 112, 96 at construction site"

Take mining:

"MSHA says mining fatalities continued decline to record low in 2004.(National affairs: key...
Publication: Pit & Quarry
Date: Tuesday, February 1 2005

Mining fatalities in the U.S. fell to a new low in 2004 as 53 miners lost their lives in accidents on the job, according to preliminary information from the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration. That record low total compares with 56 fatalities in 2003, the previous record low. There were 67 fatalities in 2002 and 72 on-the-job deaths in 2001."

For what it's worth, Judge is a not uncommon surname in the UK.
Also, for what it's worth, it is unwise to make assumptions: I said that I was self employed, you then stated that I had "zero experience" of working for others. Did you not consider the fact that I may not have always been self employed? In actual fact I spent 10 years working for others.
You said: "Where I work every time a boss asks a person to step into the office they get sick to their stomach by the time they get there."
Sounds like you've got a bad working environment. IMHO that's the exception. Most people I know enjoy their work. Going into the Bosses office (more often open plan these days) might well mean a pat on the back for doing well.

BTW There's no need for insults.

blackworx · Post by **blackworx** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:28 am

judge56988 wrote:
jaganath wrote:
People are living longer and generally are healthier than they ever have been, obesity being one exception to this, and people can become so obese because they have far more spare cash to spend than ever before
this is not true. the cheap food which are all most poor people can afford, are full of calories and saturated fat, however there is very little actual nutrition in them. Bernard Matthews, frozen burgers, etc are very cheap, however they are also very bad for you and this is the cause of obesity, a poor diet caused by low disposable income.

People in the West have never had so much disposable income - whether that's a good or bad thing is debatable - even people on welfare have satellite TV and DVD players
Again, this does not prove that disposable income has increased. This has happened because the price of consumer electronics has fallen drastically due to the huge manufacturing power of China.

My father didn't have any clothes that were not second hand until he was 21. That's poor. They had NO disposable income. It was a struggle to be able to afford food. Things are better now.

Food prices have fallen as a proportion of disposable income; this is mostly as a result of huge efficiency gains in the means of production and distribution rather than any other reason such as the increase in disposable income as a percentage of earnings. It is absolutely true that many people are now eating much lower quality food than even a decade ago - empty calories and little more. It is immensely profitable for food conglomerates to mass produce high calorie, high saturated fat convenience foods and there are powerful lobbies at work around the world to ensure that this remains the case. Government efforts to educate are consistently hamstrung by massive conflicts of interest and are a drop in the ocean compared to the amounts spent on junk food research and marketing. This is not better by any stretch of the imagination.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:58 am

Nothing I say will overcome premeditated ignorance. People see only what they choose to see. Ignorance is bliss.

Safe well fed serfs are still serfs. The fact that they live better than their parents doesn't change the current facts.

judge56988 · Post by **judge56988** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:01 am

aristide1 wrote:Nothing I say will overcome premeditated ignorance. People see only what they choose to see. Ignorance is bliss.

Safe well fed serfs are still serfs. The fact that they live better than their parents doesn't change the current facts.

If someone has a different opinion to you, that makes them ignorant?
And you had the cheek to call me arrogant!!

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:47 am

Tunnel vision would be a more accurate term. Some here simply call it selective memory. In either case it requires forethought.

Example: Xan's responses don't exist or aren't worth addressing.

I believe I am turning the other cheek now.