I often think of God ....

Our "pub" where you can post about things completely Off Topic or about non-silent PC issues.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

judge56988
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:39 am
Location: England

Post by judge56988 » Wed May 13, 2009 1:59 am

m0002a wrote: These are points well-taken. Although I am not sure that people on this forum are better educated than in a philosophical forum.

As to why I am posting on this thread if I don't believe such subjects should be discussed here, it is because I (perhaps foolishly) believed that the OP was serious about finding answers to these questions, and believe it or not, I was actually trying to be constructive (although in a rather blunt way).

Aside from that, I do actually believe that other technical forums that I participate in where there is a rule against politics and religion, are much better off for such restrictions. On the other hand, there are some unmoderated newsgroups that have degenerated to the point where 95% of the posts are politics and religion (which is way off topic to the subject of the forum), and such newsgroups have become vast wastelands.
I have to agree with you on all that, except that I said "better educated than average, not better educated than people posting on philosophy forums. (If you ever look at any sports forums, for instance, you'll know what I'm getting at.)
I don't think SPCR suffers by having the off-topic "Pub" forum, I actually browsed SPCR for a couple of years before ever looking at it - I was bored one evening and checked it out. Sometimes I wish I hadn't!

croddie
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:52 pm

Post by croddie » Thu May 14, 2009 2:27 pm

Aris wrote:No one on earth even knows if god exists.
I do.
Being a good person and being religious have nothing to do with each other.
Who knows what religion is? A red herring?
Do you know that good exists? Why aren't you as skeptical about that as about God? Especially as God:=good:=God by a lot of definitions.
do not label that which you do not know
I agree

thejamppa
Posts: 3142
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:20 am
Location: Missing in Finnish wilderness, howling to moon with wolf brethren and walking with brother bears
Contact:

Post by thejamppa » Fri May 15, 2009 12:28 pm

Firstly I apologize if my post is incoherent, rough and doesn't feel fully thought. I am more or less stoned, thanks to heavy pain medications I've taken due my back. Without them pain is so hard I barely can breath. But they might also affect slightly following post.

IMHO many peoples mix God and faith into religion. Every man needs faith. Even atheists have faith. They have faith God doesn't exist. IMHO, religion is corrupted, twisted and become abomination of what it should have been. Religion is twisted because there is middle man, priest, inturpeters, pope, whoever. This human proxy is fail point in any religion in this world.

If you have faith in God, you do not need organized religion, in order to have faith.

Religion and faith into God is not the samething. Religion is man made, there fore its much more vulnerable to man's manipulation and twist of words. Each person inturpets words and meanings differently.

Cov, you very well can have faith, even without being religious. I basicly if not detest, criticize every form of organized religion that has middle-man proxy, imaam's, priests, popes, cardinals and other's who tell us how to believe.

Everyman can find truth themself. Other peoples truth are not truth for you, but they become deception and lie very easily.

Person can be good wether he is believer, religious or atheist. But doing good things for just sake them being good is hollow. Doing good things because you want to improve world or help other peoples genuienly also show's outside. IMHO, its not man's place to critice other's are they good or not. We should just leave that to the God wether you believe God or not and focus finding your own truth and respecting other peoples, wether they share your view or not.

I am ready to die for my belief but I am not ready, in any circumstices to kill for it. When you have to kill to proove you're right... Then you're so wrong. Matter's of faith should never spread with violence. IMHO crusades were one the greatest violation of Christian faith and prooved decadence of Catholic church with the Spanish Inquisition.

Well, for summarize it: Every man has their own truth, respect other peoples truth's even you don't agree with them. Religion is not faith, nor religious person is always believer. Beliver is not always religious. Matter's of faith as matter's of heart are not other peopels business, just business between the objects ^^

P.S. I know its incoherent, full of flawed logic even contradictions. I just hope you peoples can respect this as its just my humble opinion and view in these matters.

P.P.S. and for the record I believe Christ was Messiah. May everyone give me that right ^^
If seeing is believing, how can blind person believe in anything?
Maturity is just not experience in life but also ability to make compromises.

Cov
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by Cov » Fri May 15, 2009 12:46 pm

thejamppa wrote:Cov, you very well can have faith, even without being religious.
My faith has grown out of the fact that I have not found the true meaning of life other than being good to others and let otheres be good to me.
Period
Only problem is to get through the jungle of vomit people believe in.
I can be cool with other's beliefs ... but they're not cool with my belief.
... doing good things for just sake them being good is hollow.
Interesting point.
Most people I have met, practise their "goodness" as if they want something in return.
That's maybe sign of our society, optimized to the maximum profit.
People are not able anymore (or have never been able in their life) to think about anything without expecting something in return.
Neverending greed seems to be the source of all evil.
When you have to kill to proove you're right... Then you're so wrong.
Oh my god ... if that was true, then 98% of the world population were wrong.

And if you think that can't be ... do you think shit is tasty ?

Yes, shit is tasty. Because how can millions of mosquitos be wrong ?
They sit on shit and enjoy it ... so they must be right, correct ?

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Fri May 15, 2009 1:28 pm

No person who believes that God exists would ever suggest that if every religion were disbanded, that God would cease to exist.

But religion is much more important to atheists and (so-called) agnostics because they use it as one the main arguments as why God does not exist.

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Fri May 15, 2009 1:31 pm

Cov wrote:Only problem is to get through the jungle of vomit people believe in.
I can be cool with other's beliefs ... but they're not cool with my belief.
Maybe you should be cool other's beliefs to not be cool with your beliefs. Until then, you are not really cool with other's beliefs.

thejamppa
Posts: 3142
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:20 am
Location: Missing in Finnish wilderness, howling to moon with wolf brethren and walking with brother bears
Contact:

Post by thejamppa » Fri May 15, 2009 1:38 pm

Cov wrote:
And if you think that can't be ... do you think shit is tasty ?

Yes, shit is tasty. Because how can millions of mosquitos be wrong ?
They sit on shit and enjoy it ... so they must be right, correct ?
That is matter of... hmmm opinion. If you check Finnish traditional easter food called and how it looks like Mämmi... being wrong is point of view. In human point of view mosquitos can be wrong but in mosquito point of view they are most likely correct. What are we to actually condomn mosquito's for their different "taste". What is tasty for other is horrible for another, am I not right? It is matter of perspective really...
If seeing is believing, how can blind person believe in anything?
Maturity is just not experience in life but also ability to make compromises.

Cov
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by Cov » Fri May 15, 2009 1:47 pm

m0002a,

can you take your thoughts to a specialist forum please, or how about you open your own thread ?
Only kidding.
m0002a wrote:No person who believes that God exists would ever suggest that if every religion were disbanded, that God would cease to exist.
Why would a religion ever be disbanded ?
Has there ever, EVER been a religion which has been disbanded ?
And if that was just a theoretical question, then your sentence is illogical in itself.
I have the feeling anyway, that many of your postings are illogical.
You have not replied to any of my critics before, I wonder why.
But religion is much more important to atheists and (so-called) agnostics because they use it as one the main arguments as why God does not exist.
You're throw some statements into a thread ... makes me doubt that you are willing to discuss them at all.
Why bothering and taking part in the first place I wonder ?

Cov
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by Cov » Fri May 15, 2009 1:48 pm

m0002a wrote:Maybe you should be cool other's beliefs to not be cool with your beliefs. Until then, you are not really cool with other's beliefs.
I presumed it but now I know.
You are a smart ass :wink:

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Fri May 15, 2009 2:26 pm

Cov wrote:
m0002a wrote:Maybe you should be cool other's beliefs to not be cool with your beliefs. Until then, you are not really cool with other's beliefs.
I presumed it but now I know.
You are a smart ass :wink:
I am not kidding nor trying be a smart-ass. Really.

Why do you care what other people think of you. You said you are tolerant of their beliefs, so why not be tolerant of their disdain for you (so long as they don't try to harm you).

I don't think you should be so dismissive just because I pointed out a logical fallacy in the statement you made.
Last edited by m0002a on Fri May 15, 2009 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

m0002a
Posts: 2831
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Location: USA

Post by m0002a » Fri May 15, 2009 2:47 pm

Cov wrote:m0002a, can you take your thoughts to a specialist forum please, or how about you open your own thread ?
Only kidding.
I will say in my own defense that I didn't start this thread.
Cov wrote:Why would a religion ever be disbanded ?
Has there ever, EVER been a religion which has been disbanded ?
And if that was just a theoretical question, then your sentence is illogical in itself.
I have the feeling anyway, that many of your postings are illogical.
You have not replied to any of my critics before, I wonder why.
Why does it matter "why" a religion would be disbanded. If you want talk philosophy you should be prepared to discuss theoretical matters. And yes, there certainly have been many religions that have been disbanded (or at least their influence has been greatly diminished). It may not have been religions you have heard about (but that just proves the point, doesn't it?).

The fact is that no religious person would presume to suggest that God would not exist if every Church was burnt down and if religion was deemed to be illegal (don't tell me you never heard of that happening).

On the other hand, the corruptions and other human failings of organized religion seems to be a major argument put forth (including by yourself) as to why God does not (or may not) exist.

While my observations may seem paradoxical, I believe that they are reasonably accurate.
Cov wrote:You're throw some statements into a thread ... makes me doubt that you are willing to discuss them at all.
Why bothering and taking part in the first place I wonder ?
It seems to me that I have pointed out some interesting logical contradictions, and instead of addressing them head on, you question why I am posting. I am trying to discuss the issues you have raised (although I don't know much about mosquito's eating shit), and I even quote the parts of your posts that I am responding to. I think you protest too much.

spookmineer
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 749
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:02 pm

Post by spookmineer » Fri May 15, 2009 5:29 pm

Cov wrote:Most people I have met, practise their "goodness" as if they want something in return.
That's maybe sign of our society, optimized to the maximum profit.
People are not able anymore (or have never been able in their life) to think about anything without expecting something in return.
Neverending greed seems to be the source of all evil.
I do think Western society tends to work like that in general, in some part because out of politeness. Not "want" but "expect" something in return seems to be a better description.

I've been in Morocco for 3 months (graduation project with a Moroccan classmate) and the people there are very generous.
There are some cultural differences: we were invited over at someone's house we gradually got to know, for a dinner. A very extensive dinner. When we were about to leave, I invited them to join us for dinner next time.

Of course, this was partly because in Western society it's considered polite, but also because I really wanted them to join us, they were good company.
I was amazed at the reaction: we almost had to cool down what might have become a heated discussion.

Did we consider them to be friends? we were asked. Do friends expect something in return, or is this only a trade, to be returned next time? He was feeling insulted by my offer, but he understood I was accustomed to different morals. I think, if my Moroccan classmate had offered this, he would have exploded.

DonQ
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:52 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: I often think of God ....

Post by DonQ » Fri May 15, 2009 6:25 pm

If there wasn't any God, then good or bad things just happened by random and always as a reaction of something what happened before.
Isn't "random" incompatibile with "as a reaction of something what happened before"?

You seem to have a very narrow view of religions.

What worked for me was completely open-mindedly asking questions about how I came to be and the nature of reality. Christianity has its explanations, but so do others. Why would you not see what their explanation about things are. Fear?

I think Buddhism is a much better explanation as to the way things are and I find it to be an absolutely sublime way of life. If there is a God I'm sure he would agree. Buddhism, unlike Christianity, doesn't ask you to leave your critical thinking at the door. It demands your critical thinking.

I think a true scientist would want to give it a chance as to what it's about both from an intellectual and an experiential approach.

If "God" doesn't like that I'm Buddhist, he can go to hell.
Last edited by DonQ on Fri May 15, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cov
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by Cov » Fri May 15, 2009 6:39 pm

spookmineer wrote:I do think Western society tends to work like that in general, in some part because out of politeness. Not "want" but "expect" something in return seems to be a better description.
I don't see any difference between "expecting" and "wanting".
If i want something, I expect something at the same time.
And if I expect something, then because I want it.

You can expect something without expressing it while everyone knows that you are waiting for your expectation to be fulfilled.
Example: Somebody gives you a present.
Is a present free ? Yes, you should think so.
Do people expect something in return ? Often they do.
So, giving a present can be a trojan horse. You see the person handing you over the present or doing you a (free) favour, and later you will find this very person asking you for an urgent favour.
How can you reject this person who gave you a present ?

You feel obliged, if you want or not.
When this person gave you the present, he/she might have done it either ...

1) with being conscience about the expected future benefit
2) with expecting a return in his/her subconscience
3) with the only intention to please the receiver of the present without expecting anything

Which one do you think is more likely to happen between adults ?


I personally have been in an indonesian community for several years in London.
Not all indonesians are the same, so I don't want to prejudge the whole ethnicy, but those I have met were corrupt to the bone.

1. All females were generally selling herself to the person who promised the most material satisfaction.
I have followed how the many boyfriends of some of the indonesian ladies have changed over the years.
They changed always either when they found out how shallow the lady was, or the lady found that the boyfriend was not as generous (throwing his money into her throat) as she wished he was.
This pattern happened over and over again.
Until she found one person who offered her enough, but the wired part is that the boyfriends were always by far older than her (between 15 and 25 years older) and had a preference / weakness for the asian ethnicy.
Having been able to follow the development of their relationships, I noticed that it always was an entirely calculated business deal:

You give me sex when I need it / give birth to my child(ren) and in return I secure your existence and satisfy your materialistic needs.

That is what many of their relationships come down to which I unforunately had to witness.

I have not seen a single asian relationship that was based on love.

2. Presents with a hardwired link to expectations is compulsory among them.
I once had been given an unexpected christmas present from an indonesian lady.
I appologized that I did not prepare anything for her, and she pretendet to feel insulted as she never expected anything in return.
Later I had to hear from another friend of mine, that she complained very harsh behind my back that I did not return the kindness of hers.

3. Honour is a word not existing in their vocabualry because everything they "borrow" from you converts immediately into a present.
I have trusted when "friends" of friends asked me for this and that, until I found that they have different views about borrowing than I have.

Cov
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Location: London
Contact:

Re: I often think of God ....

Post by Cov » Fri May 15, 2009 7:33 pm

DonQ wrote:
If there wasn't any God, then good or bad things just happened by random and always as a reaction of something what happened before.
Isn't "random" incompatibile with "as a reaction of something what happened before"?
Let's say when you go through your life, then about 1 million different things can potentially happen at one point.
The question is now, do things happen based on what happened in your past, are you an object of randomness or is it a mix of both ?

I would not like to argue about that your actions are related to your past because they must be related.
I'd rather give up believing in randomness.

At any given moment where you look at yourself, you will see that you are defined by the life you have lived through and by the people you have met.
Some of your experiences you have gone through on own purpose, some of them were forced onto you.
But every single action you do, is influenced directly by your past.
You seem to have a very narrow view of religions.
I attempt to give religion a chance without being on the one or the other side.
I have said it before, that all I have to offer is my natural and honest understanding.

Even if I have not had an high education, I still have the desire to understand certain things.
Or do you people automatically presume I opened this thread for the sake of arguing ?

But maybe jumping down the throat of people you don't understand is something you're just got used to ?
Why else would you give judgements so easily, base on insufficient data ?

Sorry DonQ, that was not directed to you. I just felt to express myself in general.

Cov
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by Cov » Fri May 15, 2009 7:42 pm

Cov wrote:I don't see any difference between "expecting" and "wanting".
If I want something, I expect something at the same time.
And if I expect something, then because I want it.
I just realize that if you want something which you cannot afford, you don't expect to get it if you're realistic.
And if you expect something negative to happen, means automatically that you actually don't want it to happen.

So, there you see that I can prove myself wrong.

Steve_Y
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:17 pm

Post by Steve_Y » Sat May 16, 2009 9:03 am

thejamppa wrote:Every man needs faith. Even atheists have faith. They have faith God doesn't exist.
I've seen this kind of claim repeated several times and it's complete nonsense.

Even the people who are the nearest thing to atheist figureheads, Richard Dawkins for example, typically don't profess certainty in the nonexistence of God.

"Atheists do not have faith; and reason alone could not propel one to total conviction that anything definitely does not exist" - Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

The word atheist simply means non-theist, someone who doesn't believe, and lack of belief isn't a faith in itself.

Even the atheist bus messages just said that God probably doesn't exist, while the theist response states that God's existence is a certainty.

A good example of the difference between believers and unbelievers in my opinion.
thejamppa wrote:If you have faith in God, you do not need organized religion, in order to have faith.
You may not need it, but I think that it's natural for people to seek out others with similar views and form that kind of organised group. I think it's normal for people to want leaders, like priests and prophets, to give them guidance. We aren't going to turn into a species of pure individualists any time soon.

Some atheists organise in a similar way, with groups like the Secular Humanists. Even people with a particular hobby form clubs, often taking it very seriously, with mind-boggling bureaucracy and infighting among the leadership, just like in religious groups.

If all current religions were wiped out, I'm pretty sure that new organised religions would form along similar lines.
thejamppa wrote:IMHO, its not man's place to critice other's are they good or not. We should just leave that to the God wether you believe God or not and focus finding your own truth and respecting other peoples, wether they share your view or not.
How far do you take this line of thought? Should we leave the punishment of criminals to God, respecting their "truth" even if it involves hurting other people?

Personally I don't have a problem making a moral judgement about murderers and rapists, for example. Since I don't believe in a God, it has to be people who decide on what behaviour is acceptable in society, set rules governing that behaviour, and enforce them for the good of society.
thejamppa wrote:I am ready to die for my belief but I am not ready, in any circumstices to kill for it. When you have to kill to proove you're right... Then you're so wrong. Matter's of faith should never spread with violence. IMHO crusades were one the greatest violation of Christian faith and prooved decadence of Catholic church with the Spanish Inquisition.
Your unwillingness to resort to violence is commendable, if everyone felt that way then there'd be a lot less bloodshed. But do you realise that you'd fail some of your own God's tests of faith, as described in the Bible?

For example, God tested Abraham by asking him to kill his own son Isaac. He would have failed God's test if he had been unwilling to kill a child for his faith. Then there are the times when God ordered his people to wage war on outsiders, punishing those who didn't follow his commands.

You'd think that Jesus telling people to love their enemies would override the old testament violence, but it's easy to see how those stories could be used to convince people that killing for faith isn't against God's wishes; it is the same God after all. Ultimately it all just comes down to interpretation of scripture and personal morality.

DonQ
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:52 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: I often think of God ....

Post by DonQ » Sat May 16, 2009 9:54 am

Cov... I sharply delineate science as a body of knowledge and science as a method of inquiry. Science as a method of inquiry would have us beginning with a question to which we use all our tools available to come up with a conclusion. That conclusion need not even be an answer - it could also be "there is no way possible for me to ever know." Science as a method of inquiry uses logic and reasoning as one of its tools. It also demands that we be objective, although that is sometimes hard to be.

We can then use science to try to answer basic questions. "Is there a God?" In being objective I think we should see what everyone has to say about it. Christians say this, Hindus say that, Buddhists say something else. Then we can also come up with different possibilities on our own perhaps. To consider every possibility.

Then we use our logic and reasoning to try to answer the question "Is there a God?". Can we forget the things that were taught to us and make a decision based on reason? From that question we can jump to many other questions, two being "How should I live my life?" and "What world view should I have?"

If we consciously decide how we are going to answer those questions then I think that is the beginning of religion in one sense. I say in one sense because the etymology of the word is to reunite, which would make non-theistic "religions" like Buddhism not religions.

The part that makes me chuckle is when people don't question their own beliefs and choose to believe things that from the point of view of logic, reasoning and humor are fricking nuts!

I chose to not believe in a God because it doesn't make sense to me because I am unwilling to leave my critical mind behind. I just can't fathom why an omnipotent being would demand homage from his creations when he himself has shown much childish behavior. "Oh, it's God, he can do as he pleases."

Do this, spend a couple of hours learning about Buddhism then ask yourself "If I were an omnipotent being would I punish for all eternity or at all the people who choose to follow these teachings?"

Post Reply