Win 7, what compels you to upgrade?

[Greg F.]

so tell me, is Homegroups on 7 going to take the place of Windows Home Server OS for someone with the most elementary needs?

[K.Murx]

Text driven enviroment ?! Ehm, you do know that it is 2009 right ? C'mon, joke aside you can't really expect that in this age ppl should go back to using text based comands ? Why are Linux ppl still stuck in 70s ?

Because we want to get more work done faster, preferably without having to intervene manually once it runs
An example: If I want to scale all my images in a folder to 1024x768 all it takes is

Code: Select all

mkdir scaled
for file in `ls *.jpg`; do
  convert $file -resize 1024x768  scaled/$file
done

Starting almost any GUI program out there takes longer than typing that. And this expands easily to more complex tasks (e.g. create a collage out of all the images, encode a video with 10 different parameter sets to see which one works best, ...).

For simple things that you do once in a while, a GUI is fine. For repetitive things, or typical SIMD-Stuff, a command line beats the hell out of everything else.

[edit] SIMD - Single Instruction Multiple Data/Files
[edit2] Sorry, I am horribly offtopic here

[johnniecache7]

What about the new OS makes you want to upgrade to it?

Nothing.

I agree I won't be spending my money on Windows Vista SE aka Windows 7. Most all the people that see big difference have zero facts to backup the claims. Windows 7 is pure hype and marketing, I forsure won't use it until I'm forced due to the removal of the classic start menu.I perfer classic style all that fancy OS X cloned stuff in windows 7 hurts my eyes.

[LodeHacker]

To the comment on Linux ppl stucked in the 70s:

The only thing that matters is productivity and the fact that we can download porn much faster and safer than you makes us stand out, but we do not publicly talk about such topics; so please leave the games for Windows and the alternative fun to Linux ppl

[Mats]

I perfer classic style all that fancy OS X cloned stuff in windows 7 hurts my eyes.

You're the first one I think who actually says why you prefer it. It's only a matter of looks? The W7 Classic menu doesn't have much in common with OS X, more with XP.

[blackworx]

Another possible reason:

...Microsoft is keen on USB 3.0, and SuperSpeed will certainly be supported by Windows 7, though you may have to wait for Service Pack 1 for it. Support for Vista in due course is possible, but we suspect the drive to 7 will negate the need for it.

We can't see XP getting USB 3.0 code...

Full article on USB3.0 here

[LodeHacker]

Seriously USB3.0 should be burned to hell. I mean for what is it useful anyway to boost the interface speed? For external hard drives eSATA is simply a better choice, for digital video the standard FireWire 400 never gets old and whatever else application - you name it - there's already something more commonly used available!

[stromgald]

Seriously USB3.0 should be burned to hell. I mean for what is it useful anyway to boost the interface speed? For external hard drives eSATA is simply a better choice, for digital video the standard FireWire 400 never gets old and whatever else application - you name it - there's already something more commonly used available!

I don't really get your point. Serial and parallel ports were commonly used and widely available before USB replaced them. I think USB is trying to replace Firewire in this new spec. Common connectors means fewer parts that a manufacturer has to carry, which reduces costs.

However, there are significant technical differences (USB has a more flexible architecture for handling large numbers of devices, Firewire doesn't load up the host CPU as much and allows peer-to-peer communications between devices, etc.) that I'm not sure USB has addressed. It's a good move for consumers that a better USB is released. They're just pushing the envelope on what standards they're competing against.

[Mats]

Seriously USB3.0 should be burned to hell. I mean for what is it useful anyway to boost the interface speed? For external hard drives eSATA is simply a better choice, for digital video the standard FireWire 400 never gets old and whatever else application - you name it - there's already something more commonly used available!

LOL I guess you've already tried it? eSATA is great, but they lack power for hard drives, USB 2 in modern chipsets can at least use 2.5" hard drives without an extra power supply. Yeah they're slower, but USB 3 will change that. I like the idea with eSATA though, no extra controllers needed, but it's just too bad they didn't integrate power cables in it from the beginning.
Firewire? I have it on my 2.5 year old laptop and I don't even know if it works, I've never enabled it in BIOS and never installed the driver. I can't even recall ever seeing someone using it, and I've never used it myself.
We all know how common USB 2 is, but do you know that USB 3 is backwards compatible with USB 2?

So in short, USB 3 is faster than USB 2, faster than FW 400, can start a 2.5" drive, and for "whatever else application" which is usally USB 2 it is backwards compatible.

What's not to like?

[Vicotnik]

I cannot believe that a file management tool keeps you on Windows. I presume therefore that this does constitute a significant amount of work you do on your computer - thus I would suggest you spend an afternoon or two looking into shell scripting (zsh/bash please, the other stuff makes you insane) and regular expressions under Linux. You will never look back to manipulating files with a GUI.
Images excluded, because it is rather difficult to introduce previews into a text-driven environment.

Well that's a bit subjective. I'm no stranger to bash but I work a lot faster in a two panel "norton commander-environment." You also get an overview that's hard to match with a shell. And having worked with this system for 15+ years I'm quite used to it. It's not like I use the mouse in TC.

There are several two panel file managers for Linux, but none (so far) with the power and flexibility of Total Commander. Unfortunately Total Commander is written in Delphi and there's no Linux version planned.

[LodeHacker]

What's not to like?

The fact a lot of people think it is better to have one single unique and universal connectio for everything. Tell me one satisfied customer with USB speakers for example! Also for digital video (DV) FireWire 400 is simply better, because it has industry support EVEN if it is dying out, but FireWire 800 is backwards compatible with FireWire 400 so that means that a new PC won't mean a new digital camcorder for most hobbyists. I've seen some HD camcorders with HDMI output. HDMI?! Why the f**k HDMI, the very little equipment for PC that can record from HDMI is unbelievably expensive! Why not use something like umm.... HDV? I have seen HDV and it is backwards compatible with DV (at least JVC HDV) which not only gives me better quality video but also saves me from upgrading my software.

The key point nowadays is to save your investment. If manufacturers decide to go all for USB this will make everything much more complex and I find it good that not everything is USB. Also do note that at the time of Serial / COM there was virtually NO flash drives. With NAND flash and USB technology this all changed, so USB did capture a great deal of attention thanks to the easy management of personal files on a flash drive. Current SSD technology goes one step further too!

Look the thing is to start some technology and IMPROVE it. I'm agreeing to the eSATA issue. If going external/portable then at least put power on the same cable. It's good to see some manufacturers are using Power Over eSATA or whatever it's called, but it has to be made a standard so one would not need to worry about compatibility problems. It makes SENSE that peripherals don't use the same connection.

Look PCI Express has been for how long around? I still find a lot of PCI slots on motherboards. It's an industry standard or has been for very long time and the sheer amount of devices out there using PCI forces motherboard manufacturers to include a PCI slot to protect the buyer's investment.

I mean look if you open your PC case you do not expect everything to be connected over the same connection. How funny would it be if HDDs were connected to the PCI slot and the CPU also on a PCI slot and not a socket?

I find it good that USB is getting update, BUT it makes me go nuts that people are even thinking of replacing DVI/HDMI with USB. GAAAAA!

[stromgald]

I find it good that USB is getting update, BUT it makes me go nuts that people are even thinking of replacing DVI/HDMI with USB. GAAAAA!

I don't think anybody is talking about replacing DVI/HDMI with USB. It's mostly USB vs. Firewire. DVI/HDMI will be replaced by DisplayPort if VESA ever gets off their butts and pushes it out.

The only reason there are different ports inside computers is cost. If you make everything have the same connector, they all have to carry the bandwidth of the most bandwidth hungry component. Specializing components/connectors conserves material, which reduces cost. However, specialization also increases the number of parts, vendors, testing equipment, etc. It's a balance that all manufacturers have to be aware of.

IMO, I think Firewire and eSATA have a limited life now because of USB 3.0. If USB can do everything Firewire can at a cheaper cost, it will be adopted. Of course backwards compatibility is important, which is why PCI ports are still around, but you should realize that AGP is all but gone because of PCIe. Firewire is making some changes to keep itself competitive, but IMO, it's skating on thin ice. I've never been much a fan of eSATA: it's a brand new port and many ext HDDs don't offer that connection, so I think it may be the first to go unless there's a shift in the PC market.

[Mats]

What's not to like?

The fact a lot of people think it is better to have one single unique and universal connectio for everything.

Listen to yourself, your problem is people, not technology.

Tell me one satisfied customer with USB speakers for example!

Yeah like that have anything to with it? Do you honestly think those €10 Speakers with sound chip would be better with ANY other connector? It's a quality issue, and you get what you pay for.

I've seen some HD camcorders with HDMI output. HDMI?! Why the f**k HDMI, the very little equipment for PC that can record from HDMI is unbelievably expensive!

Then don't buy it. Can't you realize it's for direct output to a TV and not for copying data?

If manufacturers decide to go all for USB this will make everything much more complex and I find it good that not everything is USB.

Well who said they would do that? Would you please just calm down?

Look the thing is to start some technology and IMPROVE it.

Have you forgotten that we're talking about USB and it's last improvement?

I find it good that USB is getting update, BUT it makes me go nuts that people are even thinking of replacing DVI/HDMI with USB. GAAAAA!

I'm not following you at all, I've never heard of anyone who wants to do that. If you read engadget or some other site you always find some nutcase who wants to that. I wouldn't, neither would anyone I know. But even if someone did it, why do you care?
I feel sorry for you if you go insane for every bad choice made in this world.

I expect your next post to be a little more on topic, you've almost lost me here.

Win 7, what compels you to upgrade?

[blackworx]

With apologies to Mats...

Seems to me the development of USB has been very well planned and executed. Was there a major headache, or even a noticeable hiccup, going from USB1 to USB2? Did swathes of non-techies suddenly find their gadgets stopped working and they didn't know why? No. Will there be any such headache going from USB2 to USB3? No. It's a simple equation: peripheral devices get more bandwidth hungry, ergo the interface needs more bandwidth.

There is no conspiracy to make all peripheral devices use some identical yet somehow inappropriate interface. The whole reason parallel (i.e. LPT, Centronics, IDE, SCSI) interfaces ever existed for peripherals is because in the days when they were conceived the technology wasn't around to DO serial interfacing quickly and cheaply enough to be of any use for (what was then) high bandwidth operations like page printing.

USB is not trying to be a replacement for eSATA either. eSATA is a very specific interface for a very specific purpose. USB is a general purpose interface and it does its job very well indeed. Anyone who has ever been enraged by nasty old COM ports (and I mean having to fiddle about inside some 25-pin D-sub over and over again in a vain attempt to make the cable compatible with x,y, or z piece of non-standard gubbins) knows exactly what I mean.

[/offtopic]

[yefi]

Because we want to get more work done faster, preferably without having to intervene manually once it runs
An example: If I want to scale all my images in a folder to 1024x768 all it takes is

Code: Select all

mkdir scaled
for file in `ls *.jpg`; do
  convert $file -resize 1024x768  scaled/$file
done

Nothing can be done more succinctly than with commands. However, you have to know those commands to begin with, which means originally having read about what they do. Well, there's a problem straight off the bat. Asking people to read? Are you nuts?

Also, you have to remember all these commands and their various switches and flags. In a GUI environment the person is guided by the layout of the program and explanatory images, at the CLI they get a blinking cursor and confusing symbols. Sure, you can use commands to find out more about the programs, but that returns you to problem one.

Btw, for Total Commander perhaps this would be a good alternative? http://www.nongnu.org/gcmd/

You're right that the font rendering is crap (or was last I checked anyway - think it was Ubuntu 8.04 I was playing with then). But with a little help from the support forums I got acceptable fonts in the end.

I thought the same when I first used it, but I didn't know that if you wanted to use MS Fonts, you needed to download the msttcorefonts package. That improved things quite a bit for me. The subpixel rendering is different from cleartype, but I really don't find it that bad.

[yefi]

Audio: 16bit calculations, no global frequency setting.

By 16-bit calculations do you mean 16-bit sampling? 16-bit audio won't be a problem for most people. It's pretty much what all MP3s are encoded at. Even DVD-A at 24-bit, you won't notice the difference unless you have an audio card with a high SNR margin and a high-fidelity sound system.

[croddie]

LOL I guess you've already tried it? eSATA is great, but they lack power for hard drives, USB 2 in modern chipsets can at least use 2.5" hard drives without an extra power supply. Yeah they're slower, but USB 3 will change that. I like the idea with eSATA though, no extra controllers needed, but it's just too bad they didn't integrate power cables in it from the beginning.

You're right about all this. I wonder whether the timing is improved in USB3.0? Is is suiltable for low-latency pro-audio?

[croddie]

By 16-bit calculations do you mean 16-bit sampling? 16-bit audio won't be a problem for most people. It's pretty much what all MP3s are encoded at. Even DVD-A at 24-bit, you won't notice the difference unless you have an audio card with a high SNR margin and a high-fidelity sound system.

No sampling is a property of the media, not the OS. Evidence suggests 16bit sampling is adequate for high fidelity audio, but if your mixer is doing calculations at 16bits, you lose bits of precision. If there's volume control this is even worse.
It's not an issue important to everyone, but with it's fixed sample rate and much improved audio setup in the control panel, it fixed the mess that was XP's audio system.

[LodeHacker]

You're right about all this. I wonder whether the timing is improved in USB3.0? Is is suiltable for low-latency pro-audio?

Well current FireWire and USB implementations for Pro Audio suck to say the least. Timing/bandwidth problems being the key to distorted or delayed audio signals.

For true Pro Audio you need an RME or similar in PCI Express / ExpressCard and use ADAT Optical to transfer audio in realtime, then feed a DAC with Word Clock synchronization as well as ADAT Optical from where you get 24-bit 192Khz analog audio outputs and use these to drive your PA system.

Costs hell a lot of money, but the protocol has extremely tight and accurate timing (and 0ms latency).

[Shamgar]

- Hopefully, for better compatibility with newer hardware.
- Hopefully, for better security (can Windows and security even be used in the same sentence in positive terms?)
- Hopefully, for less mucking around and administering, and more time actually using it for productivity and enjoyment.

Have used MS DOS, Win 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, XP Home and Professional. Currently using XP Pro with SP3. XP has been around since 2001. I think by 2010, it should be time to move on to a new Windows. A decade of the same OS? Possibly. If Win7 disappoints me, I will keep using XP.

[LodeHacker]

- Hopefully, for better compatibility with newer hardware.
- Hopefully, for better security (can Windows and security even be used in the same sentence in positive terms?)
- Hopefully, for less mucking around and administering, and more time actually using it for productivity and enjoyment.

Better compatibility... Since Vista all I've seen and read is broken drivers here and there and nothing actually works without hacks and dirty tricks. Also, without any 3rd party security software I wouldn't trust my PC in the hands of "Windows security". Too many stories and articles swallowed to believe that Windows could be secure. In the end, everything needs tweaking for one's own taste. Linux is one of the worst, but once you've got everything working to your taste, you'll see yourself making more useful things than if you would be relying on stock settings in the first place. Of course, a reinstallation can be painful should it come at some point, but remember that it's only 24h of your life sucked away, nothing more nothing less

[croddie]

- Hopefully, for better compatibility with newer hardware.
- Hopefully, for better security (can Windows and security even be used in the same sentence in positive terms?)
- Hopefully, for less mucking around and administering, and more time actually using it for productivity and enjoyment.
...If Win7 disappoints me, I will keep using XP.

Vista was a big step up from XP in security. UAC replacing a situation in XP where you pretty much had to run as administrator.
Set up time depends on what you are doing.
Compatibility is not much difference; hardware will probably support XP for several more years.

[croddie]

[quote="LodeHacker]Well current FireWire and USB implementations for Pro Audio suck to say the least. Timing/bandwidth problems being the key to distorted or delayed audio signals.
For true Pro Audio you need an RME or similar in PCI Express / ExpressCard[/quote]
Sure but the question is does USB 3.0 help. (Probably not.)

and use ADAT Optical to transfer audio in realtime, then feed a DAC with Word Clock synchronization as well as ADAT Optical from where you get 24-bit 192Khz analog audio outputs and use these to drive your PA system.

There's very little use for separate DACs in creating analog outputs. It adds complexity via archaic interfaces without any benefit.

Costs hell a lot of money, but the protocol has extremely tight and accurate timing (and 0ms latency).

RME is very good but I don't think they get 0ms latency??

[Redzo]

Well, if you're upgrading from Vista, the performance increase alone, would be worth it.

If not, the networking and media feature make a compelling case (PlayTo and Homegroup) as they ease the task of sharing media among PCs inside a basic network.

As said above. And it's pretty too

[new2spcr]

I've seen the reviews and talked to people who have tested it, and while it does sound much more user friendly for those that aren't so tech savvy, i on the other hand already know Win XP pro inside and out.

For me, the only thing I've seen that Win 7 will be able to do that XP cant is SSD optimizations out of the box. Some of which you could probably tweak on XP, while a few of the changes will be for win 7 only it seems.

I was just curious what others though about win 7. What about the new OS makes you want to upgrade to it?

You have more and much better and fine-grained security features in W7 (Vista) than in XP. I don't care much about all the fancy features + all the aero bling, I just want the computer to do the job its been asked to do.

But I won't run and purchase W7 as soon as it hits the stores, I'll wait for... at least SP1. Or SP2.

Besides, the XP's at work work flawlessly and as long as Microsoft uploads security patches, I'm pretty content.

[new2spcr]

So do what I do. WinXP will be the last MS OS I will ever use (for personal stuff, at work it's not up to me). Linux is getting better and better and I plan to start dual booting WinXP and Ubuntu/Xubuntu soon. Been saying that for a while now, but what's the rush? WinXP works just fine, and the open and free alternatives keeps getting better and better.

Linux is snappy, great and fun to configure but in many areas it still lags behind MS.
Like printer detection, wi-fi, mobo chips, graphics...
When we purchased a new workstation at the office, I wanted to install CentOS on it; what could be better than CentOS - it's free, it has 7 years patch support and it's rock stable. But it couldn't detect the P45 chip properly, not the network card nor could it detect the printer. I think I spent 5 hours or so with it. I tried a distro with a newer kernel - same problems.

I ended up buying XP Pro.
I believe the P45 chip issue has been solved by now though.

Just make very sure what hardware current Linuxes support and don't support. Especially if you intend to install it on a mobo that has a newer NB&SB chip or if you want to use a printer.

But when Linux works, it works flawlessly. It detected and automatically installed 99% of my hardware at home, upon first boot except for the graphic card whose drivers I had to install manually (but that's expected).

[new2spcr]

I cannot believe that a file management tool keeps you on Windows. I presume therefore that this does constitute a significant amount of work you do on your computer - thus I would suggest you spend an afternoon or two looking into shell scripting (zsh/bash please, the other stuff makes you insane) and regular expressions under Linux. You will never look back to manipulating files with a GUI.
Images excluded, because it is rather difficult to introduce previews into a text-driven environment.

Text driven enviroment ?! Ehm, you do know that it is 2009 right ? C'mon, joke aside you can't really expect that in this age ppl should go back to using text based comands ? Why are Linux ppl still stuck in 70s ?
OT:
I love RC1 and it's a great OS. It's everything Vista should have been from start. It's fast, responsive, great with networks (PlayTo, Homegroups) and GUI is icing on the cake. Me like a lot

With most distros, you don't have to drop to the shell and type weird commands to make things work. There is a GUI for almost everything unless you pick a distro that you want to build up from scratch, like Archlinux.

[Mats]

new2spcr: The good thing is that W7 will not be able as upgrade versions at first in EU, only retail versions for upgrade prices during the preorder period.
If you're plan to buy it at all you might as well do it now, or never. Later on it will cost more, or you'll end up with a upgrade version for the same price.

June 26 - July 11 Upgrade preorder:
* US: Windows 7 Home Premium ($49.99) and Windows 7 Professional ($99.99)
* Canada: Windows 7 Home Premium ($64.99) and Windows 7 Professional ($124.99)
* Japan: Windows 7 Home Premium (Â¥7,407) and Windows 7 Professional (Â¥14,073)

July 15 - August 14 Retail preorder:
* UK: Windows 7 Home Premium (£49.99) and Windows 7 Professional (£99.99)
* France and Germany: Windows 7 Home Premium (€49.99) and Windows 7 Professional (€109.99)

[new2spcr]

new2spcr: The good thing is that W7 will not be able as upgrade versions at first in EU, only retail versions for upgrade prices during the preorder period.
If you're plan to buy it at all you might as well do it now, or never. Later on it will cost more, or you'll end up with a upgrade version for the same price.

June 26 - July 11 Upgrade preorder:
* US: Windows 7 Home Premium ($49.99) and Windows 7 Professional ($99.99)
* Canada: Windows 7 Home Premium ($64.99) and Windows 7 Professional ($124.99)
* Japan: Windows 7 Home Premium (Â¥7,407) and Windows 7 Professional (Â¥14,073)

July 15 - August 14 Retail preorder:
* UK: Windows 7 Home Premium (£49.99) and Windows 7 Professional (£99.99)
* France and Germany: Windows 7 Home Premium (€49.99) and Windows 7 Professional (€109.99)

Yes, I agree Microsoft's pricing plan sucks = too expensive, their conservative upgrading plans or whatever they call it suck big time as well.
They probably want to recoup the loss they had with their Vista sales.

[Mats]

You think a retail copy for €50 is expensive? Did you read my post at all?