Thanks to all who offered opinions and thought about Bosch appliances in the other thread I started.
Went to local Bosch dealer on Friday, 7/3. Was not Lowe's or any such huge chain, but a small local dealer with a very, very good reputation for treating customers well, regardless of what they spend, very fair pricing (will equal big discount stores or even go lower), outstanding and expert service, etc. Here is what happened (appliance brands highlighted, and your opinions highly solicited and invited):
He had nothing bad to say about Bosch, which he carries, so that was okay. But as I discussed the amount of my budget for a cooktop and in-wall oven, he pointed out that he has a Dacor oven, identical to his at his house, that has been the floor display for about a year. This is a very nice, small store. Not a "big box" store where people beat up the displays, so the thing is in perfect condition, with full warranty. He will sell the display for a very low price, essentially saving me well over $1000 on the oven. He also has some Dacor cooktops that he is clearing out, again a savings of well over $1000 there. All told they represent a great deal, maybe.
Dacor is certainly one of the top-line appliance companies, and many, many years ago my wife, Adrienne, and I fell in love with a gas cooktop they made. We were college kids, in an apartment, but loved it for the house we dreamed of building one day. The local appliance place has both the 36", 5-burner one, and the 46" 6-burner model of the current version of that old model. He will let me have either for an insanely low price.
My research on the web has shown the usual "background noise" for most appliance makes. You know, some love them, some think they are okay, some are unsatisfied. But for Dacor ovens there seems to be a pretty bad record of problems about a year or so ago, and uneven (at best) customer service. While it would be nice to save almost $3000 on the cooktop and oven, I don't want to get saddled with a problem.
If any of you have experience with Dacor, or knowledge of their quality, please let me know. The prices are just way too good to pass up if the appliances are good, and the company will stand behind them properly.
Further, any opinions about Miele, Asko, and (drum roll) Sub-Zero? He also has a beautiful, goregous 48", stainless, built-in, 30 cubic foot, Sub-Zero side by side refirgerator that he will sell for about 1/2 price. Floor model, in perfect condition, full warranty, etc. This thing would be a huge, and I mean huge stretch for the budget, but . . . For more info on the fridge, here is link to a .pdf from Sub-Zero: http://www.subzero.com/resources/produc ... /QR632.pdf Your thoughts, opinions, etc. please? If you look at that .pdf, please note that our kitchen is not nearly as big as the one on the .pdf. Where the island is in that kitchen, ours has a wall, and is quite small. Still the big Sub-Z is such a bargain, maybe? Or maybe not? What do you think? Would you stretch your budget for it? If so, why or why not? I've been drooling over a 'fridge like that for decades, so find it hard to control myself. . .need your help. . .should I or shouldn't I?
He seems to be pushing the Miele and Asko dishwashers. Any opinions there?
Kitchen Appliances
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
The problem with going brand shopping is that one can't take into account the economics of manufacturing and it's effect on quality. Almost all brands have high-end, midrange, and budget options in their product lineup.
I use the auto industry as an analogy because it's easy to see the differences and the names are all well known. I'll use Honda as an example to avoid any sensitivities to the US automakers. Honda offers a wide range of vehicles, most of them using similar parts and processes. Aside from size, you will get significant build quality differences between the Fit and Insight than you will from a Civic, and even more so with an Accord. Taking it even further, you have the Acura TL which adds more frills/performance and (hopefully) quality. Now can you compare a Acura TL with a Honda FIT? No, of course not, as they fit very different market scenarios as perceived by Honda.
Bosch's (or any other large manufacturer) lineup is no different, but the differences in performance/quality/options are much harder to identify by the general public. Since most dishwashers try to fit a standard size and appearance, it makes it even harder to delineate differences, as they are all "under the hood". Where Bosch might use the same motor on three different dishwashers sold at three different price points. The mid and budget options will lack a special rinse cycle, but the budget will use a plastic fitting in place of a brass one in the higher up models.
Things get even more confusing when you account for the acquisitions made in the last decade or two (at least in the US). Say you want to buy a Maytag washer...well, they are now owned by Whirlpool, which also makes:
* KitchenAid
* Jenn-Air
* Amana
* Roper
* Acros
* Estate
* Inglis
* Bauknecht
* Brastemp
* Consul
* Gladiator GarageWorks
* Kenmore (for Sears)
So it's not just safe to go by brands, as each model has to be taken on it's own. I've never been steered wrong by Consumer Reports, so I'll always recommend checking there first and online second. However, knowing that a particular model is based on another well-made and reviewed model is obviously a bonus.
I know that doesn't actually answer your question, but I hope it helps.
I use the auto industry as an analogy because it's easy to see the differences and the names are all well known. I'll use Honda as an example to avoid any sensitivities to the US automakers. Honda offers a wide range of vehicles, most of them using similar parts and processes. Aside from size, you will get significant build quality differences between the Fit and Insight than you will from a Civic, and even more so with an Accord. Taking it even further, you have the Acura TL which adds more frills/performance and (hopefully) quality. Now can you compare a Acura TL with a Honda FIT? No, of course not, as they fit very different market scenarios as perceived by Honda.
Bosch's (or any other large manufacturer) lineup is no different, but the differences in performance/quality/options are much harder to identify by the general public. Since most dishwashers try to fit a standard size and appearance, it makes it even harder to delineate differences, as they are all "under the hood". Where Bosch might use the same motor on three different dishwashers sold at three different price points. The mid and budget options will lack a special rinse cycle, but the budget will use a plastic fitting in place of a brass one in the higher up models.
Things get even more confusing when you account for the acquisitions made in the last decade or two (at least in the US). Say you want to buy a Maytag washer...well, they are now owned by Whirlpool, which also makes:
* KitchenAid
* Jenn-Air
* Amana
* Roper
* Acros
* Estate
* Inglis
* Bauknecht
* Brastemp
* Consul
* Gladiator GarageWorks
* Kenmore (for Sears)
So it's not just safe to go by brands, as each model has to be taken on it's own. I've never been steered wrong by Consumer Reports, so I'll always recommend checking there first and online second. However, knowing that a particular model is based on another well-made and reviewed model is obviously a bonus.
I know that doesn't actually answer your question, but I hope it helps.
I purchased a Meile dishwasher about a month ago.
The quality of the wash is top notch. No pre-washing, just drop everything and anything in and run it. Nothing has ever come out with any leftover food or any spots of any kind. The machine is absolutely phenomenal.
It is also very nearly silent. My old dishwasher was a 10 year old Whirlpool that you could hear anywhere in the house when it was running. You can not even tell the Meile is on most of the time.
I cannot say enough good things about my Meile dishwasher, but I can't comment on reliability.
Just as a note: I have ALWAYS been steered wrong by Consumer Reports. That POS rag has sold me more LEMONS than I care to admit to. I will never, and I mean NEVER take any suggestions from them again. I bought a top rated (#1 best) toilet made by Eljer. You could plug that thing with a single Kleenex. I replaced it 3 times because I thought something was wrong with it. After the 3rd one I installed a Toto and haven't had a single plugged toilet since. Nearly 5 years of perfect operation from a toilet CR rated near the bottom.
The quality of the wash is top notch. No pre-washing, just drop everything and anything in and run it. Nothing has ever come out with any leftover food or any spots of any kind. The machine is absolutely phenomenal.
It is also very nearly silent. My old dishwasher was a 10 year old Whirlpool that you could hear anywhere in the house when it was running. You can not even tell the Meile is on most of the time.
I cannot say enough good things about my Meile dishwasher, but I can't comment on reliability.
Just as a note: I have ALWAYS been steered wrong by Consumer Reports. That POS rag has sold me more LEMONS than I care to admit to. I will never, and I mean NEVER take any suggestions from them again. I bought a top rated (#1 best) toilet made by Eljer. You could plug that thing with a single Kleenex. I replaced it 3 times because I thought something was wrong with it. After the 3rd one I installed a Toto and haven't had a single plugged toilet since. Nearly 5 years of perfect operation from a toilet CR rated near the bottom.
+1 for Miele, based on the dishwasher of theirs I have. Very quiet - servicing is expensive though and they insist on doing their own installs.ghetterly wrote:I purchased a Meile dishwasher about a month ago.
The quality of the wash is top notch. No pre-washing, just drop everything and anything in and run it. Nothing has ever come out with any leftover food or any spots of any kind. The machine is absolutely phenomenal.
It is also very nearly silent. My old dishwasher was a 10 year old Whirlpool that you could hear anywhere in the house when it was running. You can not even tell the Meile is on most of the time.
I cannot say enough good things about my Meile dishwasher, but I can't comment on reliability.
Asko was my second choice for a dishwasher, but I got a good price on the Miele, which pretty much was the deciding factor.
My kitchen is a mish-mash of brands (other appliances are an Omega oven + sink and taps also from memory / Ariston cooktop / Smeg rangehood / can't remember the fridge at this stage) so ask away!
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N7SC
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Thanks for the help, guys. And to others, please keep it coming.
Went to another appliance store today, and returned to the one mentioned in the above post. Am now more confused than ever. At least they weren't pushing any particular manufacturer.
The new store basically said that most of the so-called "higher-end" manufacturers were all quite good. Virtually all have had some problems at one time or another, but have overcome them. All either practice or are catching up at customer service. Perhaps both dealers agree that Sub-Zero/Wolf is the best at customer service, really going the extra mile for customers. Shame that they are way, WAY beyond what I can afford to spend, even stretching it. Try $4000 to $6000 for a single in-wall oven!
At the store I went to before, I learned to never speak to the chief service technician, who in this case owns the store with his brother. He knows the exact flaws of everything. After speaking to him I left thinking that none of the manufacturers were worth it. Well, Asko and Miele, seem to be okay, he does like them.
jhhoffma, I know exactly what you are saying. For a European example of what you provided (Whirlpool), Bosch is in a joint-venture with Siemens to build appliances, BSH. BSH owns:
Bosch
Siemens
Thermador
Gaggenau ($$$$$$$$$$$ ad infinitum), just to name a few, there are many more brands they own.
Further, it looks like BSH manufacturers the refrigerator columns for Miele, even though BSH does not own Miele.
Am glad to hear that Miele dishwashers are very good. They do come highly recommended by all dealers. And I like the top rack flatware holder, with all the slots for each fork, knife and spoon. Very tidy.
Went to another appliance store today, and returned to the one mentioned in the above post. Am now more confused than ever. At least they weren't pushing any particular manufacturer.
The new store basically said that most of the so-called "higher-end" manufacturers were all quite good. Virtually all have had some problems at one time or another, but have overcome them. All either practice or are catching up at customer service. Perhaps both dealers agree that Sub-Zero/Wolf is the best at customer service, really going the extra mile for customers. Shame that they are way, WAY beyond what I can afford to spend, even stretching it. Try $4000 to $6000 for a single in-wall oven!
At the store I went to before, I learned to never speak to the chief service technician, who in this case owns the store with his brother. He knows the exact flaws of everything. After speaking to him I left thinking that none of the manufacturers were worth it. Well, Asko and Miele, seem to be okay, he does like them.
jhhoffma, I know exactly what you are saying. For a European example of what you provided (Whirlpool), Bosch is in a joint-venture with Siemens to build appliances, BSH. BSH owns:
Bosch
Siemens
Thermador
Gaggenau ($$$$$$$$$$$ ad infinitum), just to name a few, there are many more brands they own.
Further, it looks like BSH manufacturers the refrigerator columns for Miele, even though BSH does not own Miele.
Am glad to hear that Miele dishwashers are very good. They do come highly recommended by all dealers. And I like the top rack flatware holder, with all the slots for each fork, knife and spoon. Very tidy.
Yeah, I was hoping to revisit this post when I got home and got my copy of CR.
Hopefully, this isn't against any copyright
For dishwashers, the top two are Bosch's (SHX98MO[9]UC and Evolution 500) followed by an Asko model and two Kenmore Elites. Bosch and Whirlpool are listed as most reliable. Miele is 26 out of 36 tested.
For the built-in refrigerators, Jenn-Air JS42PPDUDB ($7,200) takes the top notch due to its excellent cooling, power efficiency, and capacity. It's followed by a Thermador, a Miele (KF1901Vi), a Kitchenaid, and a Sub-Zero (BI36U/S). Dacor is listed at the bottom due to it's high energy usage (50% higher than Jenn-Air).
Beyond that, you'd have to narrow down the type of fridge you were looking for (top/bottom freezer, side-by-side).
I'd definitely recommend going out and buy this issue. Lots of good stuff that I can't reasonably fit here. I'm surprised that ghetterly had so much to say bad about C/R. I don't always agree with their recommendations, but usually they favor brands with good service and make notes or special comments for brands that stand behind their product.
Hopefully, this isn't against any copyright
For dishwashers, the top two are Bosch's (SHX98MO[9]UC and Evolution 500) followed by an Asko model and two Kenmore Elites. Bosch and Whirlpool are listed as most reliable. Miele is 26 out of 36 tested.
For the built-in refrigerators, Jenn-Air JS42PPDUDB ($7,200) takes the top notch due to its excellent cooling, power efficiency, and capacity. It's followed by a Thermador, a Miele (KF1901Vi), a Kitchenaid, and a Sub-Zero (BI36U/S). Dacor is listed at the bottom due to it's high energy usage (50% higher than Jenn-Air).
Beyond that, you'd have to narrow down the type of fridge you were looking for (top/bottom freezer, side-by-side).
I'd definitely recommend going out and buy this issue. Lots of good stuff that I can't reasonably fit here. I'm surprised that ghetterly had so much to say bad about C/R. I don't always agree with their recommendations, but usually they favor brands with good service and make notes or special comments for brands that stand behind their product.
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judge56988
- Friend of SPCR
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- Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:39 am
- Location: England
I had an AEG washing machine for 14 years, never once broke down. I only got rid of it because we got a tumble drier and I thought I might as well replace the washing machine too - instead of preventative maintenance it was preventative replacement.
As for Miele - they are the best, if you can afford it. I used to work on an oil rig and we had standard domestic Miele washer and drier in use virtually 24 hours a day washing really dirty overalls with no trouble at all. Quiet too.
AEG, Miele, Bosch - all German engineering and as good as Audi, BMW and Porsche. I'd like to buy British but the quality is not there. I've no experience with American stuff except Snap On tools, Leatherman and Zippo, but they are all nice.
As for Miele - they are the best, if you can afford it. I used to work on an oil rig and we had standard domestic Miele washer and drier in use virtually 24 hours a day washing really dirty overalls with no trouble at all. Quiet too.
AEG, Miele, Bosch - all German engineering and as good as Audi, BMW and Porsche. I'd like to buy British but the quality is not there. I've no experience with American stuff except Snap On tools, Leatherman and Zippo, but they are all nice.