Very Efficient, and May be Bad For You.

[aristide1]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34509513/ns/health-cancer//

Nothing is worse than silent killers.

[qviri]

Is bad journalism bad for you?

A telltale sign of an energy-efficient device is the ballast, or transformer, that you see near the end of a power cord on a laptop computer, printer, or cell phone charger (although not all devices have them). When plugged in, it's warm to the touch, an indication that it's tamping down current and throwing off transient pollution.

[aristide1]

Well one does have to deal with the technical abilities of the author, but suffice to say when dealing with any square waves there is a very large amount of high frequency content involved. And that's the very nature of switching power supplies.

[colm]

intense article. I am glad studies emerge undoubtful.

I am a victim of radiation of all kinds..former military, many aircraft, some literally carried nukes. I knew it, they leave a "shadow", I'd like to call it a chunk of time itself..
from an mri with a steel plate in my foot (ignored)..also memory loss so bad I can't even describe it. I also learned of a powerful beam in front of 707s I used to crew chief on. To mention these things in an ongoing tough guy caveman environment, it does indeed create a laughable history.

My biggest victimization, was my pc, in a 1947 all steel camper trailer, of course had to have been affected by americas experiments...if you know what I mean... by the time words explain the powers invisible, some nut doctor would be giving me mental pills.

to analogize heat and a/c kicking on at the same time...to the same measurement....no forward, no backwards...no anything....a complete storm of wasteful shit.

[andyb]

A meaningful accurate, widespread scientific study that is not funded in any way by anyone who has a motive to find the evidence one way or the other is the only answer.

Until that happens I just like almost everyone else will carry on being slowly killed by radiation caused by electronics. Up until now most if not all studies that I have heard about RE: the radiation output by overhead power lines or mobile phones have been funded by power/mobile phone companies, and all of the others have not had enough evidence to say anything meaningful at the end.

A good place to start would be the Mormons etc, but just try getting them into a hospital to find out anything at all.


Andy

[nutball]

A meaningful accurate, widespread scientific study that is not funded in any way by anyone who has a motive to find the evidence one way or the other is the only answer.

What if that meaningful accurate, widespread scientific study that is not funded in any way by anyone who has a motive to find the evidence one way or the other concludes that this statement:

Until that happens I just like almost everyone else will carry on being slowly killed by radiation caused by electronics.

is incorrect?

[xan_user]

better live underground, or the cosmic rays from the sun might kill you.

Wouldn't houses be more efficient if they had a DC rail from the wall? dump all these little ac/dc converters and have one large and efficient converter after the meter.

[andyb]

A meaningful accurate, widespread scientific study that is not funded in any way by anyone who has a motive to find the evidence one way or the other is the only answer.

What if that meaningful accurate, widespread scientific study that is not funded in any way by anyone who has a motive to find the evidence one way or the other concludes that this statement:

Until that happens I just like almost everyone else will carry on being slowly killed by radiation caused by electronics.

is incorrect?

I will continue to take the risk for a couple of reasons:

1,) There is no compelling evidence to suggest that the risk even exists.
2,) Avoiding such a thing in a modern city environment would be almost impossible, therefore an entire lifestyle change would be the only "safe" option, and I would become a social outcast.
3,) I doubt I would look good wearing a tinfoil hat (I have actually met a man who lines his hat with tinfoil to stop the aliens and government satellites from reading his mind).

So, who would actually take the risk of phucking up their entire life to avoid a risk that is totally unproven. Personally I am more concerned that a tyre on my car will suddenly blow out and cause me to crash into oncoming traffic at great speed, than years of being around electronic stuff "might" possibly cause an increased chance of getting cancer.

I believe that I am looking at this from a rational perspective, and being rational requires "evidence", something that this has almost nothing worth mentioning - I will certainly change my mind if new and compelling evidence arrives.


Andy

[qviri]

Well one does have to deal with the technical abilities of the author, but suffice to say when dealing with any square waves there is a very large amount of high frequency content involved. And that's the very nature of switching power supplies.

I am absolutely in favour of studying this properly, as some of the coincidences do look rather damning, but an article written by a man who cannot distinguish between a rectifier, an electrical ballast, and possibly a ferrite bead is not the right way to bring this about.

At least he didn't talk about igon values.

[andymcca]

Symptoms of EHS, a recently identified condition, include fatigue, facial irritation (resembling rosacea), tinnitus, dizziness, and digestive disturbances

Sounds like MSG poisoning!
Why, my eyes itch every time a photoreceptor is not fully saturated (ie transmits a signal via glutamate).

Anyway...

Milham was especially interested in measuring the ambient levels of a particular kind of EMF ... known as high-frequency voltage transients, or "dirty electricity." Transients are largely by-products of modern energy-efficient electronics and appliances. [These transients] can back up along home or office wiring all the way to the utility, infecting every energy customer in between.

Guess I better stop using my powerline networking, what with all the dead neighbors.

Seriously though. What a joke. And the school? They constructed a new building, and I am sure they used all sorts of terrible materials to do it (they still do, and this school was opened in 1990). So many things could be off-gassing, and they blame the computers? Sounds like the beginning of a legal defense...


Edit:

At least he didn't talk about igon values.

Jacobians > igons

[jessekopelman]

Wouldn't houses be more efficient if they had a DC rail from the wall? dump all these little ac/dc converters and have one large and efficient converter after the meter.

Problem is that to be most efficient you'd have to standardize on a single Voltage, so you wouldn't really lose the adapters they'd just be smaller VRM instead of AC-DC. Bigger problem is that most of your stuff that you don't replace that often (lamps, TV, appliances) are are setup to run on AC. You'd lose your efficiency gains by hooking them up to a bunch of inverters, or you'd spend a lot and create a lot of waste by replacing all your AC-powered stuff.

[xan_user]

Wouldn't houses be more efficient if they had a DC rail from the wall? dump all these little ac/dc converters and have one large and efficient converter after the meter.

Problem is that to be most efficient you'd have to standardize on a single Voltage, so you wouldn't really lose the adapters they'd just be smaller VRM instead of AC-DC. Bigger problem is that most of your stuff that you don't replace that often (lamps, TV, appliances) are are setup to run on AC. You'd lose your efficiency gains by hooking them up to a bunch of inverters, or you'd spend a lot and create a lot of waste by replacing all your AC-powered stuff.

I meant having both ac and dc outlets. As you mention AC is really only needed a few places in the home. about half our devices seem like they are dc now.

[andyb]

I meant having both ac and dc outlets. As you mention AC is really only needed a few places in the home. about half our devices seem like they are dc now.

I wouldnt say anywhere near half (taking you literally), and even if half of your devices are DC, they probably represent 10% of your total power usage, with a laptop charger or game console adaptor being about half of all of most peoples DC power usage.

As an example of all of my DC powered stuff:

Gigabit network Switch (12W)
Router (12W)
BB Modem (12W ?)
X-Box 360 (203W)
Mobile Phone Charger x2 (12W)
Cordless phone charger + base unit (20W)

Total: 271W

Usual 24x7 usage: 56W


Andy

[xan_user]

half the stuff plugged into wall. not half the wattage.

all pc's are dc.

most lcd monitors.

UPS's (AC to DC battery, back to AC so I can plug in a AC PSU that changes it back to DC?!?!? WTF is that all about?)

lots of stereo/video/boomboxes/radio/satellite/dvrs/ equipment has an AC plug but actually use DC inside. (just because AC is standard house wiring.)

track lighting.

all my rechargeable batteries.

You really start to realize how much is and can be DC when you live off the grid for a while.

I have a DC; fridge, stereo, TV,DVD,VCR, record player, all the lights are led ect.

realistically the only AC you really need is for microwaves, huge TV's, decent air conditioning/freezers, power tools/blow dryers ect. and washing machine. (what am I forgetting? ). and thats mostly all optional when you really get down to it.

[andyb]

I follow your point that many electric items are actually DC on the inside, and come with their own circuitry inside to convert from AC.

But as nearly the whole world is set up to run AC everywhere, AC is readily available, as are AC devices. This could be a chicken/egg conundrum, which came first, the DC wiring in your House with one main energy efficient adaptor from AC, or all of the native DC devices.?

The problem is that it is not at all efficient to push DC accross long distances, so AC would still have to come to your house, then in your house you would have to have a converter that is powerful enough to run all of your DC equipment, and then you get to the crunch, you need equipment that can run straight DC/DC and at several different voltages, otherwise you will simply need more adaptors.

realistically the only AC you really need is for microwaves, huge TV's, decent air conditioning/freezers, power tools/blow dryers ect. and washing machine. (what am I forgetting?

Over here most people have electric ovens, and by law they require their very own circuit and fuse - 30A @ 240v - I have no idea how much juice most ovens actually use, but the potential is there for huge amounts 7.2KW


Andy

[andymcca]

The problem is that it is not at all efficient to push DC accross long distances, so AC would still have to come to your house

False.
HVDC is actually pretty awesome.

Edit:
Additionally I'd like to point out that you new fewer conductors for HVDC, and a static field means you only see inductive behavior when quickly approaching/leaving the line.

Edit Again:
OK not as awesome as I had thought, but the long distances are still not the problem.

[xan_user]

Over here most people have electric ovens, and by law they require their very own circuit and fuse - 30A @ 240v - I have no idea how much juice most ovens actually use, but the potential is there for huge amounts 7.2KW


Andy

Electric ovens? that is criminal. but it explains the UK cuisine...

[andyb]

HVDC is actually pretty awesome.

Edit:
Additionally I'd like to point out that you new fewer conductors for HVDC, and a static field means you only see inductive behavior when quickly approaching/leaving the line.

Edit Again:
OK not as awesome as I had thought, but the long distances are still not the problem.

Agreed, tech I didnt know existed, but it is still high-voltage to reduce losses, which will mean sub-stations, and transformers anyway, and I guess they would need to be different, therefore the infrastructure cost would be massive.

Electric ovens? that is criminal. but it explains the UK cuisine...

What do you use to power your oven.? Gas I assume. Gas has a few problems compared to electric, it cooks unevenly whereas electric ovens usually have a fan to constantly move the hot air around helping cook evenly. Also if you are in a flat there is usually only electric to reduce problems surrounding the explosive nature of gas. Modern (built within the last 15-years) cook just as fast as the average gas oven, and often costs less to run, is less dangerous, less problematic etc etc. On the other hand, I hate electric hobs, unless they are new instant-heat ones they are totally crap.

My favourite is the classic BBQ with a little added wood.


Andy

[xan_user]

propane - electric ovens dont cook anything if the powers out. (about 3 times per year for 2 days or more at a time.)

[qviri]

Over here most people have electric ovens, and by law they require their very own circuit and fuse - 30A @ 240v - I have no idea how much juice most ovens actually use, but the potential is there for huge amounts 7.2KW

Anything that rotates, moves, heats, or glows due to heat is a pretty bad candidate for DC conversion.

Electronics, sure. The big problem is that ATM everything runs on a different voltage since the designers are assuming they will have to convert from AC anyway.

Switching systems once they become entrenched is never an easy task, I mean, USA is still not metric...

[aristide1]

Electric ovens? that is criminal. but it explains the UK cuisine...

Really? I thought it was Lucas Refrigerators.

Oh that's the warm beer. Sorry.

[andymcca]

Electric ovens? that is criminal. but it explains the UK cuisine... :lol:

There are a lot of electric ovens in the US as well (east coast, anyway). Are you from an country/area where everyone has gas? Just curious.

Over here most people have electric ovens, and by law they require their very own circuit and fuse - 30A @ 240v - I have no idea how much juice most ovens actually use, but the potential is there for huge amounts 7.2KW

In the US er regularly spec a 50A x 2 pole (=240 VRMS in a typical 2 pole house) breaker for an oven. I blame Texas.

Gas has a few problems compared to electric, it cooks unevenly whereas electric ovens usually have a fan to constantly move the hot air around helping cook evenly.

In the US ovens with fans are called "convection ovens" (though if you ask me the name makes no sense). Gas and electric are equally likely here to have this feature, but it tends to cook food 10%-30% faster at the same temperature setting, so people avoid it because all of their recipes end up wrong. In fact I've never seen a "convection oven" which did not let you turn the fan off for exactly that reason. Is this not the case in Europe?

Switching systems once they become entrenched is never an easy task, I mean, USA is still not metric...

I envy Canada and the UK (myself being from the US) very much for having a reasonable/capable enough population to switch.

[outbackyak]

I'd love to see a really well-designed and independent scientific study of this issue, but I seriously doubt it will ever happen - hugely expensive and difficult to set up, with some enormous vested interests working against it. In the mean time I'll take my chances.

I envy Canada and the UK (myself being from the US) very much for having a reasonable/capable enough population to switch [to the metric system].

And as a person lucky enough to have experienced the enormous benefits of switching from imperial measurements to the metric system, I find it impossible to understand why the US still holds out for its own weird system. Australia switched back in the 1970s while I was still at school, and it instantly made everything easier and more understandable, and the switch really caused very few problems to the wider community.

Unfortunately, because the US is the dominant world force that it is, 40 years later we are still forced to cope with items and measurements that aren't metric - every mechanic still has AF tools as well as metric, every hardware store has to sell non-metric nuts and bolts, oil is still measured in barrels ... the list goes on and on.

Please, please, America - switch to metric! You'll really like it! And the rest of the world won't have to deal with your crazy "system"!

Cheers!

[qviri]

I envy Canada and the UK (myself being from the US) very much for having a reasonable/capable enough population to switch.

Well, we're not fully switched. There's still feet and inches getting used for shorter distances (personal height is a notorious example) and pounds for most smaller weights. Not to mention the size of the US means a constant influence and regularly causes non-metric headaches for anyone in some areas in science and engineering.

[robokopp]

QUOTE qviri
... regularly causes non-metric headaches for anyone in some areas in science and engineering.
UNQUOTE qviri



Yep, even NASA experienced problems with the dual use of metric and imperial measures...

/copy/

NASA's metric confusion caused Mars orbiter loss

NASA's Climate Orbiter was lost September 23, 1999

September 30, 1999
Web posted at: 1:46 p.m. EDT (1746 GMT)

(CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because one engineering team used metric units while another used imperial units for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

For that reason, information failed to transfer between the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft team at Lockheed Martin in Colorado and the mission navigation team in California. Lockheed Martin built the spacecraft.

"People sometimes make errors," said Edward Weiler, NASA's Associate Administrator for Space Science in a written statement.
/paste/

Link to original news story:-

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

[qviri]

Yes, the Climate Orbiter is a quite famous example.

Another good story, if you haven't read about it yet, is the Gimli Glider. Fortunately, that one ended much better.