Bullfighter survives goring, what a shame

[andyb]

When I read the news story I was really hoping to find out that he had died. The more I read, the more dissapointed I became.

This was yesterday, when he lost 17 pints of blood, they just kept on filling him up, such a shame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... oring.html

This was a couple of years ago, in which you can see why I hoped he was going to die, torturing future steak is just not right.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... bulls.html

On the plus side, he was operated on ringside with no anasthetic, and was reported to still be unconcious, so there is always hope of death for this sick bastard. No doubt there will be an updated news story sometime tomorrow - fingers crossed.


Andy

[WARDOZER9]

And this is whats wrong with the world. I like going rock climbing without the aide of ropes and this is partly why I do it alone. If I fuck up and die it will be because of my own dumbass mistake and I have no desire to be a burden to people that would try to keep me alive, that and the fact that I don't want to live if my body becomes more or less useless. This dumb shit got into a profession where he knew this was likely and as such when he was gored they shoulda let his ass die. Why would I say this? Well, 17 pints of blood was wasted on this man who is going to be doing it again when he can.

I'm also the 29 year old proud and perfectly healthy owner of my own DNR so this may be fueling my feelings on others I'm not a religous nut by any means but I do believe in survival of the fittest and this man obviously is not fit enough to survive his own choices so he should be left to die for them just as anyone who is mortally injured by choices they willingly make. There are so many people that should have not been kept alive throughought history when they made choices that should have killed them like every dare devil for starters.

A prerequisite to occupations that have a high mortality rate should be a mandatory DNR that you have to sign that applies to you while performing the tasks specified by that occupation. All dare-devil and thrill seeking spectator sports should be in this category. If you want to push yourself to your limits then others shoudl not be responsible for piecing you back together when you push yourself too far.

[andyb]

Thanks for the input Wardozer, slightly different angle to mine, butcertainly an interesting point of view that has some validity - especially if taken from the perspective of practical suicide, but that is not what I want to discuss.

Video, you probably wont be able to watch it outside of the UK, and its really not that good, I would only give it 2 out of 10 because you dont get to see the horn rip a large hole, and you can barely make out the blood.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvid ... fight.html


Andy

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Andy,

I'm wondering if we can talk about things without being so judgmental and absolutist about it, please? I think it aides our arguments if we acknowledge our own fallibility.

We all depend on many other people we do not often think about; many of whom risk their lives for our convenience. I'm thinking of the coal miners, some of whom were recently killed, and also of the people who work on oil rigs, who died when it exploded and sank. Do we blame them for taking risks?

[WARDOZER9]

Hi Andy,

I'm wondering if we can talk about things without being so judgmental and absolutist about it, please? I think it aides our arguments if we acknowledge our own fallibility.

We all depend on many other people we do not often think about; many of whom risk their lives for our convenience. I'm thinking of the coal miners, some of whom were recently killed, and also of the people who work on oil rigs, who died when it exploded and sank. Do we blame them for taking risks?

Thats completely different because the coal miners don't plant explosives with the intent to see if they can make a tunnel almost cave in on them. The riggers don't sit there with matches, lighters and flares seeing if they can almost but not quite make the rig explode on them, what they want is far from that. The bullfighter on the other hand, that is what they do along with everybody in dare-devil and thrill seeking professions. Take the spider man ( famous rock climber who climbs without ropes ). If he would have fallen off the Sears tower a couple years back, no resources should have been wasted on him, not like they woulda done much good as I'm sure he would have been about 1" thick and prob 10' wide after hitting the pavement but still. The bullfighter has no practical purpose as a human or animal. As a human he has no intent to kill the animal for food to prolong his own life, even animals don't torture other animals for fun.

I'm sorry but it you want to put a bullet in a gun, spin the chamber and pul the trigger for a rush then you should be left to suffer the consequences on your own. If you want to piss off an 1,100lb animal that has the ability to just plain kill you then you should be left to suffer the extent of the consequences.

Here is a question more suited to everybody. If a hunter goes into the woods with no gun and only a pocket full of stones, finds a Grizzley bear and decides to start throwing rocks at it to piss it off only to see if he will live. Would you feel as sorry for that man or even think he's worth saving when the bear mauls his dumbass? Thats exactly what a bullfighter does. A bullfighter is not intent on killing an animal, only pissing it off to see if he will live.

Don't get me wrong in all this. I'm not saying a paratrooper, firefighter, police officer and other careers like that that do carry risks but the person is not tempting fate every chance they get, the last thing they want is even a close call but the Bullfighter and thrill seekers live for the close call.

If you want to put faith in yourself and push your limits then you should not hold others responsible when you push yourself too far or your body fails on you because of the choices YOU make. This is why I go rock climbing alone and I have my DNR bracelet on when I go though I keep it in my pocket 24/7 just because I don't think it's the best conversation starter.


LOL, I just watched the video and something occured to me. Any professions that requires that many support personal to be ready to react that fast needs to come with a DNR because they know full well that there is an extreme likelyhood that something WILL go wrong. You see the almost dozen people that were at the ready to distract the bull and carry him away within 4 seconds? There is your indicator of when someone should be left for dead. Bullriders are not without my classification of people that need to man up and sign a DNR. You're taking a very real chance of getting trampled to death by the pissed off animal your on top of with no intent to break that animal for livestock or useful purpose. They took something with a porpose and perverted it and as such should be left to thier demise when something does go wrong.

[nick705]

We all depend on many other people we do not often think about; many of whom risk their lives for our convenience. I'm thinking of the coal miners, some of whom were recently killed, and also of the people who work on oil rigs, who died when it exploded and sank. Do we blame them for taking risks?

wut?

How on earth are people who torture animals to death for entertainment "risking their lives for our convenience"? How exactly do we "depend" on such people?

[andyb]

I'm wondering if we can talk about things without being so judgmental and absolutist about it, please? I think it aides our arguments if we acknowledge our own fallibility.

My solid absolutist opinion on this matter is just that because this is torturing animals for sick human pleasure and gratification.

I dont necessarily take exactly the same view as Wardozer, but he does have a very good point about the huge differences between people who put themselves in harms way for a worthwhile and decent job, and this twat who is thrill-seeking whilst torturing an animal, which obviously has no purpose except for those evil people who want to watch animals being tortured.

We all depend on many other people we do not often think about; many of whom risk their lives for our convenience. I'm thinking of the coal miners, some of whom were recently killed, and also of the people who work on oil rigs, who died when it exploded and sank. Do we blame them for taking risks?

People who do risky jobs might very well get something out of the thrill (firemen, military etc) that comes with the risk of putting themselves into risky/dangerous situations. Coal miners, and oil drillers certainly dont get any thrill out of the risk, but all of these jobs have 2 things in common, they are all useful/needed, and none of them torture animals as part of their job.

The second item is the point that I started on when I first posted, which I will re-itterate. There is no reson to torture animals, hopefully this animal torturer will die because this particular bull actually managed to hurt the human as well as being hurt by the human.

Bullfighting is a disgrace to humanity, as are all blood sports involving animals.


Andy

[NeilBlanchard]

Okay -- meta discussion: I am not equating bull fighting with coal mining; but I am equating the systems that support each of these. The individual people who are taking the risks are not to "blame" for what they are doing, and neither one is "causing" the situation to exist. If the bull fighter or the miner leave, then others would then do what they do.

The system is to "blame" for the risky situations; not the individuals who actually get hurt. All I am saying is that to blame the individual bull fighter for the cruelty to the bull, is like blaming the coal miner for the ecological damage done by coal mining and burning coal.

[WARDOZER9]

Okay -- meta discussion: I am not equating bull fighting with coal mining; but I am equating the systems that support each of these. The individual people who are taking the risks are not to "blame" for what they are doing, and neither one is "causing" the situation to exist. If the bull fighter or the miner leave, then others would then do what they do.

The system is to "blame" for the risky situations; not the individuals who actually get hurt. All I am saying is that to blame the individual bull fighter for the cruelty to the bull, is like blaming the coal miner for the ecological damage done by coal mining and burning coal.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. If I decide to get a bunch of people together to spectate when I get in a ring with 6 pissed off and hungry pitbulls it's not my fault if I get disembowled by the dogs for making the choice to get in the ring in the first place whether or not people were cheering me on? You're right, it's not the bull fighters fault he got mauled just because he's too fn stupid to excercise his free will and decide "Damn, this is one dumbass idea, I think I'll pass.".

Seriously Neil, your saying that if you personally are stupid enough to get in a ring with an animal when you know very well you mgiht actually die for that choice that its not your own damned fault if and when you actually do get mauled to dath? Come on man, where is your moral sense of accountability? I'm a sick fuck when it comes to some of my activities that could very easily claim my life and even I believe if I screw up and actually die or am injured to the point where I will die without help then I should be allowed to die. My choice, my mistake, my obligation not to make others have to go out of thier way to piece me back together only for me to spit in thier face by going back out and doing it all over again.

It is the individuals fault for doing stupid stuff because guess what, very very very very *deep breath* very very very very very very very very ver hea heaary few people are adrenaline junkies like bullfighters and thus it would be very easy to hold them personally responsible for thier actions because if those very few people decided not to do something it's not like there is going to be a long line for replacements, not by any means.

You could blame an institution if there was a sizeable list of people brave enough or dumb enough to take someones place but the kind of people that do stuff like this really seriously are a microscopic minority of mentally unfit indivuduals. Me, I'm not mentally sound but sound enough to have a DNR because I'm aware that the things I do put me at a very very high risk of dying and I don't believe anyone should have to waste time trying to keep me alive for my own stupid mistake.

The animal torture part only makes this whole thing worse because as I said before, normal people don't torture eachother ( outside of a wife asking if she looks god in a dress when she knows she doesn't and knows you don't think so either but no matter how you answer, you're getting in trouble ) or even participate in these acts in any way nor do animals.

Please, we are not comparing coal miners or anyone in a dangerous job that serves an actual constructive purpose to people like the bull rider as we've said they are different, very different. The coal miners don't intentionally tempt fate, they just wanna do thier job and go home without any close calls but the bullfighter puts himself in front of close calls non stop by choice. The miners are sane people that want to live and do not have any desire to even think about a cave in, the bullfighter either has a death wish or is not of sound mind.

Look at this from a constructive/destructive point of view.

Coal mining: Constructive
--- They are performing thier task to provide a service for people that is both measurable and serves a purpose to the masses
--- More is produced from this task than is taken away

Bullfighting: Destructive
--- This sport has nothing to offer anyone except a few seconds of adrenaline to the spectators and to the matador
--- More goods are measurably consumed during this sport with nothing to show at the end outside of a mostly unusable animal carcass due to trauma of the flesh

The coal miner as an individual can show measurable payoff to the masses for his work. This person is uaually an average individual trying to make an average contribution in return for an average quality of life. There is nothing special about these people and they are easily replaced so you can blame the company for any adverse affects caused by the mining process.

The bullfighter can show nothing at any given time that they have contributed to society as memories cannot be measured and all eventually fade. This person is significantly different from the average individual as apparent by the line of work they choose. They willingly face death and sever bodily harm for a few seconds of fame which sets them apart from the average, sane individual. It is not normal for a person to risk thier life for no measurable gain. This person due to the way thier mind/body work cannot be easily replaced making them and thier choices unique so you cannot blame an institution that would not exist without the extreme minority of people off balanced enough to do things like this. This individual can directly be blamed for getting mauled by the very animal that comes inches, if that from them repeatedly just because they are making the choice to be there.

I guess what gets me more than anything is the resources wasted on people like this and Evel Knievel who take precious resources away from the medical industry that could be used to help and save innocent people. Why patch someone up only to have them say "Hey, thanks for wasting your time trying to help me, now if you'll excuse me I have to go undo all the hard work you just did piecing me back together. See you in a couple weeks, losers."

And yes I did just diss Evel Knievel because he's the all american dumbass who should have been left for dead when he failed the first time. He chose to push his limits, he exceeded them and should have been left to pay the price. At least I have the common sense to back down from a rock face if I'm not feeling 95% + sure that today is my day. There is a difference between knowing you can do something and tricking yourself into believing you can. If I don't know I can scale a rock face then I'm not going to lie to myself and tell myself I can because although a bit of a nutjob I'm not suicidal.

[andyb]

Okay -- meta discussion: I am not equating bull fighting with coal mining; but I am equating the systems that support each of these. The individual people who are taking the risks are not to "blame" for what they are doing, and neither one is "causing" the situation to exist. If the bull fighter or the miner leave, then others would then do what they do.

The system is to "blame" for the risky situations; not the individuals who actually get hurt. All I am saying is that to blame the individual bull fighter for the cruelty to the bull, is like blaming the coal miner for the ecological damage done by coal mining and burning coal.

Thats pretty much what I say to vegitarians who say things like "if you stop eating meat, people will stop farming meat", my answer always is, "if lots of people did that, it would simply reduce the price of the product, as it already exists, then other people would eat more as it was cheaper. The only long term way of doing this is a constant year on year reduction, and I like meat so I dont want that to change, go off and eat your "soil mould" (Quorn)".

Either way, I follow your meaning on the subject, and you are right, the best way to sort this out is to abolish it totally, some poeple have got a step closer, by using a ring of flowers that they try to put round the bulls horns or neck, rather than stabbing the bull with steel spikes several times, its not ideal, but a step closer as the sick violence has been removed but the antagonism is still there.

A side question, why do they allow /push kids into doing this.

They get gored as well, although the bull is only a 350 pound animal instead of an 1,000 pound animal. As heartless as this sounds, its a shame that was not a 1,000 animal otherwise there would now be one less bull torturer in the world, and more importantly that might help reduce this barbaric form of public animal torture after a 12-year old gets killed. And even better if they then imprisoned the kids parents and the event organisers etc etc.

http://colombiareports.com/colombia-new ... -cali.html


Andy

[Jay_S]

Okay -- meta discussion: I am not equating bull fighting with coal mining; but I am equating the systems that support each of these. The individual people who are taking the risks are not to "blame" for what they are doing, and neither one is "causing" the situation to exist. If the bull fighter or the miner leave, then others would then do what they do.

The system is to "blame" for the risky situations; not the individuals who actually get hurt. All I am saying is that to blame the individual bull fighter for the cruelty to the bull, is like blaming the coal miner for the ecological damage done by coal mining and burning coal.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. If I decide to get a bunch of people together to spectate when I get in a ring with 6 pissed off and hungry pitbulls it's not my fault if I get disembowled by the dogs for making the choice to get in the ring in the first place whether or not people were cheering me on? You're right, it's not the bull fighters fault he got mauled just because he's too fn stupid to excercise his free will and decide "Damn, this is one dumbass idea, I think I'll pass.".

I agree with everything you're saying re: personal accountability. And I am sympathetic to andyb's position (though I stop short of wishing for someone's death). But I think what Neil is saying is that, without the institution, there couldn't be a bull fight. Your example simplifies it considerably, because you could literally assemble 6 dogs and some spectators. But could you get 10's of thousands of spectators? Could you get them all to pay you for the performance? Could you get them to watch & pay you torture the dogs? Could you get corporate sponsorship for this? I doubt it, because watching WARDOZER9 isn't culturally institutionalized. When WARDOZER9 gets mauled and dies, the game ends. When the bull fighter dies, the institution lives on.

If WARDOZER9 gets into the ring with a pack of viscous dogs, he's an idiot. If a bull fighter gets mauled by a bull, fans are sympathetic to the bull fighter. The difference is that there's cultural support for the bull fighter. Hell, I bet bull fighting culture is strengthened by stuff like this.

Until the supporting culture shifts from glorifying and valuing bullfighting, with sufficient force to overwhelm the bullfighting institution, it will persist. Like most institutions, if it can be starved of funds it would probably die. So, a season or two of terrible ticket sales would scare the major sponsors away and probably spell the end of the "profession".

There's probably more people in line for matador positions than we think. For a laugh, I googled "how to become a matador"; the 1st result is this eHow article:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2069594_become-matador.html
Which says there's a bullfighting school in San Diego, CA.

[judge56988]

Bullfighting is a huge sport in Spain, virtually as popular as soccer. It is part of the national culture.
I've been to several bullfights, the atmosphere is tremendous and the Spanish people revere their top matadors in the way that David Beckham or Wayne Rooney are revered in the UK - probably more so because the bravery of the matador puts them in a different league of hero to a soccer player. It's something that you have to experience and fully understand before passing judgement.

If the Spanish people choose to support this bloodsport in the way that they do, surely it is up to them? By all means think of it as "sick" and barbaric but it's no business of anyone but the Spanish.
If they want to dedicate resources to caring for injured Matadors, again it is up to them.
In this particular case it seems that the guy was 'past it' - he retired in 2002 and came back in 2007 and has been gored several times since. Probably best he calls it a day for good now.
As far as the moral argument about blood sports goes in general - how many dumb animals are slaughtered on a daily basis in the US by "hunters" - isn't hunting the most popular sport on that side of the Atlantic?
I have much more respect for a matador risking his life against a fighting bull than I do for someone taking potshots at a deer or bear with a high powered hunting rifle from half a mile away. And don't tell me that it is a quick and painless death for the animal - how many of them are only wounded and get away to die a slow and painful death?

I would be interested to hear the views of a Spaniard on this.

[nick705]

Bullfighting is a huge sport in Spain, virtually as popular as soccer. It is part of the national culture.
I've been to several bullfights, the atmosphere is tremendous and the Spanish people revere their top matadors in the way that David Beckham or Wayne Rooney are revered in the UK - probably more so because the bravery of the matador puts them in a different league of hero to a soccer player. It's something that you have to experience and fully understand before passing judgement.

If the Spanish people choose to support this bloodsport in the way that they do, surely it is up to them? By all means think of it as "sick" and barbaric but it's no business of anyone but the Spanish.

Ah, the old "it's their 'culture', so it's not our place to criticize" argument.

Yes, of course it's up to them, but what do *you* think? Are you saying that torturing an animal to death for entertainment is *not* sick and barbaric? If you're simply saying "I'm not Spanish, so I have no right to an opinion", why bother posting at all?

[Fayd]

Ah, the old "it's their 'culture', so it's not our place to criticize" argument.

Yes, of course it's up to them, but what do *you* think? Are you saying that torturing an animal to death for entertainment is *not* sick and barbaric? If you're simply saying "I'm not Spanish, so I have no right to an opinion", why bother posting at all?

ah.. excuse me?

we're the only country with the right to decide what other countries should or shouldn't do.

don't be edging in on our territory, or there'll be hell to pay...



FWIW, i dont like the bullfighting culture. i dont, however, wish death upon the bullfighters themselves. i do think the people who enjoy this crap should grow a brain.

[judge56988]

Bullfighting is a huge sport in Spain, virtually as popular as soccer. It is part of the national culture.
I've been to several bullfights, the atmosphere is tremendous and the Spanish people revere their top matadors in the way that David Beckham or Wayne Rooney are revered in the UK - probably more so because the bravery of the matador puts them in a different league of hero to a soccer player. It's something that you have to experience and fully understand before passing judgement.

If the Spanish people choose to support this bloodsport in the way that they do, surely it is up to them? By all means think of it as "sick" and barbaric but it's no business of anyone but the Spanish.

Ah, the old "it's their 'culture', so it's not our place to criticize" argument.

Yes, of course it's up to them, but what do *you* think? Are you saying that torturing an animal to death for entertainment is *not* sick and barbaric? If you're simply saying "I'm not Spanish, so I have no right to an opinion", why bother posting at all?

Yes I think it is barbaric. Not sick though - what I would consider sick is for an individual to torture an animal in private for their own pleasure. That is vastly different to what bullfighting is about.
Yes I enjoyed the bullfights that I witnessed and I would go again. It's hard to put into words the feelings experienced - it's savage and emotional, Hemingway got the essence of it's appeal in a far more eloquent way than I could ever hope to do.
It's huge popularity in Spain, South America, Mexico and Portugal (where the bull is not killed in the ring); together with the popularity of other bloodsports across the world shows that they appeal to many people on a very basic level. I don't know why that is, neither do I much care. It's just the nature of a lot of people. Look how popular bloodsports were with the Romans and in fact ever since - fox hunting, bear baiting, cock fighting and the modern substitutes like boxing and cage fighting. Our instincts haven't changed a lot over the past 2,000 years; hardly surprising as homo sapiens has been around for 130,000 years or so.

I suppose it comes down to whether you think animals have "rights" - personally I think not.

[judge56988]

Fayd - that's not my quote.

[lm]

The bullfighter has no practical purpose as a human or animal.

First of all, I am just as much against cruelty to animals in general and bullfighting in particular as you guys.

However, that statement is a bit harsh. Who are we to judge the practical purpose of certain professions? You could just as well say that artists have no purpose as they are not necessary for keeping the human race alive.

Chances are, the guy was just trying to make a living, the unemployment rates being what they are around there. And even if he quit his job, that would still not stop bullfighting from happening.

The main reason why bullfighting happens is because there is a paying audience. Anyone who ever went to watch such a show is to blame. If nobody would be interested, it weren't profitable and would just end.

Another is legislation. It should be made illegal. You should be putting your effort to making bullfighting illegal instead of bashing one unfortunate man.

[nick705]

Yes I think it is barbaric. Not sick though - what I would consider sick is for an individual to torture an animal in private for their own pleasure.

So just to be clear, it's acceptable to torture an animal as long as it's in public for the entertainment of others, rather than in private for one's own entertainment?

I suppose it comes down to whether you think animals have "rights" - personally I think not.

I'm not sure how you'd explicitly define "rights" in this context", but if that's what you think, why is it not OK to torture an animal in private?

Look how popular bloodsports were with the Romans and in fact ever since - fox hunting, bear baiting, cock fighting and the modern substitutes like boxing and cage fighting. Our instincts haven't changed a lot over the past 2,000 years; hardly surprising as homo sapiens has been around for 130,000 years or so.

I'm not sure how this is even relevant - feeding Christians to the lions was a very popular spectator sport at one time, does that mean it should be unbanned?

BTW, boxing and cage fighting have one critical difference to your other examples - the participants are all performing out of choice, hopefully in the full knowledge of the potential consequences.

[judge56988]

I didn't say I thought bullfighting was torture. It's a contest between a man and an animal, and as is apparent, the man can lose.
Obviously the bull will end up dead either way and obviously it has no choice in whether to participate or not.

The fact that bullfighting is so popular in some countries, together with the popularity of other bloodsports both now and in the past says to me that there is something in people that is attracted to this kind of spectacle. That's the relevance of my point about the Romans.
If people didn't enjoy the spectacle/participation in these events they would not exist.

As for feeding christians to the lions - it's not allowed any more, neither is burning protestants or witches at the stake. But it's not that long since they were. My point is that men are essentially barbaric at heart - still. They still have a good turn out for a public stoning or beheading in Saudi Arabia for instance, and blood sports involving animals are still very popular with a lot of people in the UK.

[WARDOZER9]

I didn't say I thought bullfighting was torture. It's a contest between a man and an animal, and as is apparent, the man can lose.

In a contest you don't maim an oponent before hand like the way they drug and unjure the bull to give the man a fighting chance. By all means, if you want to remove the drugging and injuring of the animal before hand I'm all for bullfighting of course then it'd be more like "Bull running the hell away from before you die".

If this was a fair fight to the death between a man and an animal then it's all good. Put a man in the bull ring without ANYTHING and let him kill the bull with a loin cloth and his bare hands thus proving his superiority. There have been recorded instances of people going up against lethal animals for survival and actually winnin with thier bare hands, those people I respect and would not want to mess with. Bullfighters though, I'd walk up to one and kick him in the balls then kick him while he's down because he has no honor or respect and deserves none in return.

How would you pro bullfighting people like it if I drug you and shove spears in your back then put you in a ring with me and we fight to the death, who do you really think is going to win? Actually, seeing as you support it so much, lets all get on a boat, go to international waters and do just that. I'll get fancy clothes and be in perfect health and we'll drug all of you and seriously injure your arms and legs so you can't move as fast and without searing pain then I'll slaughter all of you, that sounds like a plan. Oh wait, thats inhumane? Uh oh, moral dilema for you pro bullfighting people. Looks like you better choose your response carefully else you be labeled as a hypocrate

[judge56988]

If this was a fair fight to the death between a man and an animal then it's all good. Put a man in the bull ring without ANYTHING and let him kill the bull with a loin cloth and his bare hands thus proving his superiority. There have been recorded instances of people going up against lethal animals for survival and actually winnin with thier bare hands, those people I respect and would not want to mess with.

How would you pro bullfighting people like it if I drug you and shove spears in your back then put you in a ring with me and we fight to the death, who do you really think is going to win?

How is a 1 tonne bull with horns vs an unarmed man anything like an even contest?
You've got your view and I've got mine.
It's pointless arguing about it.

BTW, when you free solo a route, do you do it on sight or do you climb it a few times first with protection and learn every move before you "risk" your life??

[WARDOZER9]

BTW, when you free solo a route, do you do it on sight or do you climb it a few times first with protection and learn every move before you "risk" your life??

I never use ropes and I only climb a specific area once to keep things interesting for me.

And how is fighting a mutilated and drugged up animal an even contest? If you want to prove superiority over something you have to do it COMPLETELY UNDER YOUR OWN POWER WITHOUT ANY AIDE !! This includes going up against an 1,100 pound animal without the aide of ANYTHING. Otherwise you're just a pussy.

Honestly, I'd square off against a single wolf under my own power and I'd like to think I'd be able to survive that fight but I don't have big enough or solid enough balls to go up against a Bull in a fair fight so I just wouldn't do it period as there is no glory in going up against an intentionally injured and drugged up anything, there is no honor in it.

And I go back to my original stance, I'll take any 5 of you pro bullfighters on under the same terms that bullfighting takes place under. I get to be perfectly healthy and you get to have your legs and arms injured and you will be drugged up prior to the fight. 5 people at 200lbs a piece seems about fair except for the fact that you will still lose as the odds are greatly stacked in my favour

[judge56988]

Putting aside the argument about what constitutes an equal contest and whether bullfighting is morally acceptable or not; the fact is that it is very popular with many people while others find it sick and barbaric. I was just wondering why that is.

Off topic:

I never use ropes and I only climb a specific area once to keep things interesting for me.

So how do you know the route is within your capabilities? Do you just go by the grade? How do you attempt more difficult routes?
I've climbed a bit and have come off on a few occasions when attempting harder routes. That's enough of a buzz for me, even with a rope. Especially when the top nut pops out.

[nick705]

You've got your view and I've got mine.

You say you've got your view, but I'm not entirely clear what it is yet.

Given that deliberately inflicting a slow, drawn-out, painful death on an animal for entertainment doesn't constitute "torturing" it in your book, can we take it that you believe bullfighting is an acceptable practice?

If "yes", then is it similarly OK for someone to inflict a slow, drawn-out and painful death on an animal in private, for their own entertainment? If not, why not?

[judge56988]

You've got your view and I've got mine.

You say you've got your view, but I'm not entirely clear what it is yet.

Given that deliberately inflicting a slow, drawn-out, painful death on an animal for entertainment doesn't constitute "torturing" it in your book, can we take it that you believe bullfighting is an acceptable practice?

If "yes", then is it similarly OK for someone to inflict a slow, drawn-out and painful death on an animal in private, for their own entertainment? If not, why not?

OK - I've been to bullfights a few times, the first time it was for the experience, to see what it was all about. I was in my early 20's and a fan of Hemingway and had read "Death in the Afternoon". I was in Madrid and curious so I went. I was soon caught up in the whole thing and enjoyed it. Subsequently I went to a couple more bullfights in Spain as well as in Mexico and Portugal. What people seem to be missing here is that the public don't go to see the suffering of the bull - that's what makes it completely different to the thing about a lone individual torturing an animal in private. The people go to see the contest and to witness the bravery and artistry of the matador. And believe me, despite what wardozer maintains, the matador is very much at risk, as is all too obvious from the goring that started this debate. Injury to matadors is common. The greater the risk the matador takes, the more he is idolised by the spanish.

Whether or not I can condone it on moral gounds is another issue and I don't think I can. Of course it is barbaric but the fact that it arouses so much passion in so many people cannot be disputed - and I mean passionate support. That, together with the love of similar activities that people have had since at least Roman times indicates to me that there is a desire to witness this kind of thing deep in the psyche of most people. Granted, in many societies this has been overwritten by a more civilised veneer where it is just not acceptable to inflict unnecessary suffering on animals. Despite the fact that many of these people are more than happy to eat meat produced from animals that are kept in appalling conditions. (A fighting bull is treated very well during it's life, rather like Roman gladiators were.)

Lastly, I feel that it is for the Spanish to decide how they want to treat injured matadors - it's their culture and whether you agree or not, I personally don't think it would be right to allow the guy to bleed to death in the bullring. I also happen to think that the original post was in bad taste. For me, people are more important than animals, there are far worse things going on in the world, far worse things happening to people, so for some people here to make so much fuss about a few bulls is surprising to me. It's also perhaps something that people should witness for themselves before passing judgement.

[danimal]

how many of you prima donnas don't like bull fighting, but still eat beef??

"Federal law requires that cattle be stunned (rendered insensible to pain) prior to slaughter. Most cattle are shot in the head with a "pistol" that thrusts a metal rod through the skull and into the brain. However, the law is rarely enforced and routinely violated since shooting a struggling animal is difficult and production lines move at an alarming pace.[4] As a result some animals go through the slaughter process kicking and screaming as they are skinned and dismembered while fully conscious.

An April 10, 2001 Washington Post exposé revealed: "It takes 25 minutes to turn a live steer into steak at the modern slaughterhouse where Ramon Moreno works… The cattle were supposed to be dead before they got to Moreno. But too often they weren't. ‘They blink. They make noises,' he said softly. ‘The head moves, the eyes are wide and looking around.' Still Moreno would cut. On bad days, he says, dozens of animals reached his station clearly alive and conscious. Some would survive as far as the tail cutter, the belly ripper, and the hide puller. ‘They die,' said Moreno, ‘piece by piece.'""

[WARDOZER9]

how many of you prima donnas don't like bull fighting, but still eat beef??

"Federal law requires that cattle be stunned (rendered insensible to pain) prior to slaughter. Most cattle are shot in the head with a "pistol" that thrusts a metal rod through the skull and into the brain. However, the law is rarely enforced and routinely violated since shooting a struggling animal is difficult and production lines move at an alarming pace.[4] As a result some animals go through the slaughter process kicking and screaming as they are skinned and dismembered while fully conscious.

An April 10, 2001 Washington Post exposé revealed: "It takes 25 minutes to turn a live steer into steak at the modern slaughterhouse where Ramon Moreno works… The cattle were supposed to be dead before they got to Moreno. But too often they weren't. ‘They blink. They make noises,' he said softly. ‘The head moves, the eyes are wide and looking around.' Still Moreno would cut. On bad days, he says, dozens of animals reached his station clearly alive and conscious. Some would survive as far as the tail cutter, the belly ripper, and the hide puller. ‘They die,' said Moreno, ‘piece by piece.'""

LOL, I love this guy. Food verus entertainment, good arguement. God put animals here for us to eat not torture for entertainment. The animals in a food processing plant aren't killed for entertainment and you better believe none of the workers would be glad to see an animal kicking arround when it puts them at risk of bodily harm.

Dude, the brain stays alive for a few minutes after death processing pain anyways so chill with the food that you eat too. No matter how we kill the animals, they will feel it unless you prefer them to start lethal injec . . oh wait, then we can't eat the meat :/

[xan_user]

dont like bullfights?

then choose not to watch em.

but I dont watch ultimate fighting, or US football either.

[andyb]

What people seem to be missing here is that the public don't go to see the suffering of the bull - that's what makes it completely different to the thing about a lone individual torturing an animal in private.

What a load of bollocks (not bullocks). There are only 2 animals being viewed in the arena, the bull (usually spends a lot of time bleeding from its back due to long spikes being there), and the future steak torturer. If anyone does not notice the bleeding, tormented, tortured bull they are either desensitised, retarded or simply dont care.

As you seem to make this fantastic claim that "the public don't go to see the suffering of the bull", how is that any different from an individual torturing an animal (say a puppy) in private - the "public" still dont see the suffering do they..........

And how is fighting a mutilated and drugged up animal an even contest? If you want to prove superiority over something you have to do it COMPLETELY UNDER YOUR OWN POWER WITHOUT ANY AIDE !! This includes going up against an 1,100 pound animal without the aide of ANYTHING. Otherwise you're just a pussy.

Well said, but you did miss that the bulls that they use are actually selectively bred for stupidity, and they carefully file down their horns, so it actually hurts the bull when they hit something, hence the bullfights go on for so long. I would really like to see a clever bull, that was not injured, drugged, had undamaged horns etc up against a bullfighter with nothing but his clothes and flag, just like Wardoser says, if its a macho thing let it be, but this is so one sided its simply animal torture for the public's money.

As a result some animals go through the slaughter process kicking and screaming as they are skinned and dismembered while fully conscious.

I know it happens, it shouldnt, and in some places it doesnt. The places where it does need to get their act together as it is unnacceptable to many poeple now. On the other side, this is not for sick entertainment value, this is for food, so the argument still has nothing to do with torture, the argument resides fully within the realm of "incompetence".


Andy

[judge56988]

Yes Andy, it's just so, so easy for the Matador...



Add that to the one in your original post plus all the rest that get injured each year.

Oh, and of course you can clearly see the 4" shaved off the end of the bulls horns.

Yes there have been cases of bulls being doped before a fight, it's illegal just as doping racehorses and using drugs in other sports is.