NeilBlanchard wrote:The Model S is quite large inside, because it has a flat floor, and there is no engine in the front.
Very nice. Shall we look at facts instead?
Head room (front/rear): 986/897.2 mm
Leg room (front/rear): 1083.7/899.9 mm
Shoulder room (front/rear): 1465/1396.8 mm
Hip room (front/rear): 1397.4/1390.4 mm
Compare this to the Jaguar XF, I cite this example as it is a coupe like shape:
Internal width - Front (mm) 1,444
Internal width - Rear (mm) 1,432
Internal headroom - Front (mm) 991
Internal headroom - Rear (mm) 956
So the XF is better than the Tesla despite also having a sloping roofline which limits passenger space.
And a more traditional (and practical) F10 5-series:
Internal width - Front (mm) 1,518
Internal width - Rear (mm) 1,485
Internal headroom - Front (mm) 1036
Internal headroom - Rear (mm) 973
That's a lot more spacious. So again, it's not even as spacious inside as the cars in the category which it competes against so will be tiny compared to those like the S-class, in the category which you insist it competes with. It MAY have a flat floor but that flat floor has to encompase a whole load of electrical systems which takes up space, plus there's no way the packaging efforts of a new company will come close to those of an established marque.
NeilBlanchard wrote:It has TWO trunks. One in the front and one in the back.
The front one adds only an additonal 150 litres. Handy to be able to carry around the power cable that you'll need plus a few other things. The boot at the rear is difficult to ascertain how big exactly it is. I simply don't believe Tesla's volume measurements are in line with the standardisd VDA measurement method. There is simply no way it is 745 litres. 500 litres perhaps, like it's rivals but they are clearly overriding the load height restrictions that are supposed to be in place for VDA measurements. It is a hatch, but VDA load height restriction also applies to hatches. There are a number of hatches that approach 600 litres but given that with the Tesla loses so much internal space, you'd need the boot to make it up. Look at the Skoda Superb for a car that makes LOTS of space available for the passengers and luggage.
NeilBlanchard wrote:It has an option for 2 additional seats, that face back; essentially modern rumble seats. So, it can have 5+2 seating.
After my previous query on how the rear most seats are approved, I've found the relevant info. They are approved for children between the ages of 3 and 12 and 15-36kg in weight. As previously stated it's not alone in this offering but it is pretty niche and not as usable as cars that offer a full 7 seats. As they are restircted for use by only 10% of the population (or less perhaps, there's a worrying number of overweight children) the market is small. In addition when it is appropropriate to use them is also difficult. Means you can't put a dog in the back at the same time. Also I wouldn't want to leave children in the boot with a load of shopping - you'd get home and find either they'd eaten it or covered the inside of the car in yoghurt! You can kind of see why sales of these optional seats are small for Volvo and Mercedes.
NeilBlanchard wrote:It has a 17" touch screen.
Your point? I'm sure that's lovely for the aforementioned rollneck jumper and designer spectacle wearing junior marketing executives. A touch screen is not so suitable for use in a car as a controller with knobs and buttons. Any kind of helmsmithlike driving and you won't be able to touch the screen in the right place. On the other hand I'm frequently switching between navigation, media, power/torque displays and fuel economy on the iDrive whilst giving it a dab of oppo. Good luck keeping your eyes on the road.
NeilBlanchard wrote:It has the highest performance available in any sedan.
Science fiction and fantasy. Even the top model diesels (or the top petrol models for that matter) will beat it in acceleration and oblitterate it in handling so how on earth do you possibly think it's going to outperform the BMW M5, Mercedes E63 AMG, Jaguar XFR and Audi RS6? As I stated before I can only find a Tesla Model S 85+ Performance laptime for Laguna Seca on fastestlaps.com and it's a long way down on the AMG and XFR with the M5 having not being tested on this track but as its generally regarded as the best of the lot, expect it to be faster again.
NeilBlanchard wrote:Say what you want, but the Tesla Model S competes with the top of the line models in the highest performance sedans.
No it doesn't as I continue to point out by logical conjecture based upon overwhelming observable evidence. Tesla Model S competing with the M5...
My 330d Touring could beat the 85kWH performance model I would expect on many tracks.
NeilBlanchard wrote:But no, it doesn't have a perfumed air system like the S Class...
Or for that matter quite a lot of things, here's a few of the things in the S-class has:
AirMATIC air suspension with level adjustment and Adaptive Damping System
Closing aid for doors and boot lid
Headlamps – LED Intelligent Light System LED headlamps with variable light distribution for country roads and motorways, Active Light System, cornering light function, extended fog light function and Adaptive High Beam Assist
Magic Vision Control – adaptive windscreen wiper system, heated
Parking Package Parktronic with Active Park Assist and reversing camera
Front seats – full electric adjustment Fore and aft, height, inclination and seat cushion length adjustment, electric head restraint height adjustment and four-way electric lumbar support
Luxury automatic climate control – two-zone Three climate modes: Focused, Medium and Diffuse
Steering column – electrically adjustable with Easy-Entry function
Active Bonnet – pedestrian safety measure
Attention Assist Monitors steering behaviour and can help alert to long journey fatigue
Automatic child seat recognition sensor Works in conjunction with Mercedes-Benz child seats fitted with transponder
Collision Prevention Assist
ESP® Curve Dynamic Assist
Front passenger seat with Pre-Safe® positioning function
Head restraints, rear (3) – electrically lowering
Pre-Safe® anticipatory safety system
Seat belt pre-tensioners, belt force limiters and automatic belt height adjustment – front and outer rear seats
Traffic Sign Assist Speed Limit Assist with wrong-way warning function and display of speed limit in instrument cluster
Compare that to the Tesla feature lost where you actually have to fold the mirrors and close the bootlid by hand. Plus you have to sit on plastic seats.
There's no way you can logically think it competes with the S-class in any sense, hence why I keep pointing out that the 5-series, E-class, A6, XF et al are it's nearest competitors and even then it looks a bit peasant spec despite the higher asking price.
NeilBlanchard wrote:The batteries do not represent any more energy than any other material used in automobiles. Also, the batteries will be recycled.
454kg is a lot of material. A lot of material which won't last the lifetime of the car. Other materials will also be recycled but recycling has it's own wastage.
NeilBlanchard wrote:It uses FAR less energy over it's lifetime than any fossil fueled car.
What, compared to a Toyota Prius or similar? It has previously been shown that a Land Rover Defender has a better overall environmental impact than a Toyota Prius, simply because the thing really can be used for decades rather than having to be thrown away after 10. Then again, really long term reliability doesn't add anything for marketing men. They want you to buy something that you'll need to replace.
NeilBlanchard wrote:It requires far less regular maintenance - and the oil changes and other related items that are required to run an ICE - add even more to the carbon footprint for a fossil fueled car.
We've already been through this point. Servicing costs related to internal combustion engines are minor unless you are dealing with something old and at the point of failure. My car does 19000 miles between service intervals and even then it's not especially expensive. Modern cars don't burn oil unless there is something very wrong and old oil is recycled. Tyres are far more of a cost on any car and by adding all of that weight of the batteries you're going to need higher load rated tyres, thus adding cost and rolling resistance.
NeilBlanchard wrote:The Tesla Supercharger system is being built up - in a couple of years, you will be able to drive coast to coast - for free. Those stations can charge it to 80% (I think?) in under 30 minutes, and they use solar PV arrays to (more than) offset the energy used.
While I support a national electric car charging scheme, it's annoying that it's a single manufacturer. Will other manufacturers cars be able to use these stations or is it locked down to a single manufacturer?
NeilBlanchard wrote:You can put a solar PV system on your house, and generate enough energy to offset most (or all) of what you use in your house *and* in your EV.
We have solar panels too. The problem I see to using them to charge an electric car is about time of generation and cost/selling price of electricity. When you have solar panels you can sell to the grid or you can use the electricity yourself and it generally works out better than you use the electricity while you are generating it rather than selling it to the grid. With solar this is fine if you keep your car parked at your house all day but how many people do that? Maybe electric cars are perfect if you want to go out for a drive at night time, sneaking up on prostitutes and murdering them.
NeilBlanchard wrote:Electric cars are the best way to go; because they will make us truly energy independent, and they will be a key part of us stop changing the climate. The climate that all life depends on.
Big closing point there but not adding anything. I'm not against electric cars. As stated I really do like some electric cars and have looked at this in great detail before, I was even toying with the idea of getting an electric car for business, making a killing on the mileage payments I get given and just accepting that I'd have to stop often to recharge. Some electric cars make more sense than others and the Model S to me, just doesn''t. It misses the target market where electric cars are most applicable, is hardly affordable yet doesn't measure up to conventional competitors in that price bracket, and they've fallen for the mistake of trying to overcompensate for range and giving it massive batteries.
On a lighter note, in relevant, well thought out, good value electric car news the BMW i3 is now starting to arrive with buyers. The McLaren P1 hybrid has sold out. Plus Gordon Murray's T27 concept is being implemented by Yamaha as the MOTIV.e. The internal combustion based T25 remains unimplemented at this stage. I have the absolute greatest of respect for Gordon Murray and what he did for several decades in F1, then designing the McLaren F1 and SLR, plus he is game enough to have shaved his moustache for charity but I'm a little upset that Yamaha ditched the 1+2 seating arrangement for a more conventional 2 seat arrangement!
andyb wrote:Its £60,000 more than I can afford.
If you could afford it you would be more likely to take a logical decision instead and work out that it wasn't worth it. Dream cars are one thing but people who buy their dream cars generally end up dissappointed. This also goes hand in hand with why if you're wealthy you don't buy a supercar despite the fact that all people who can't afford one would if they could
andyb wrote:The fake grill on the front, there is no need for it at all and IMO it spoils the look of the car.
Quite common on cars, they generally don't need as much ventilation as the designer might lead you to believe. Just look at the lower grilles on many cars and you notice they're simply plastic mouldings with no function. Some also have small aerodynamic purposes like deflecting air through to the outer leading edge of the wheel arch. For styling purposes it might be preferable as otherwise the car doesn't have a 'nose'.
There seems to be a lot of ideas here of 'dream' cars without substantiation with facts. I've brought a lot of facts to this topic and do so with a lot of knoweldge of cars having driven literally hundreds of models from about 40 manufacturers. I do have a lot of knowledge of the kind of cars this competes with price wise and having had the option of buying a car in that market area, have already been through the logical sides of the arguments for and against. I know some of you might happen to like a car, but that's no substitute for having knowledge of it's competitors.