AGP Video Card Woes

They make noise, too.

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OmegaZero
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AGP Video Card Woes

Post by OmegaZero » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:38 am

First off, I have to admit that I have been out of the loop with graphics cards for quite a while. Actually I was never really in the loop to begin with - I don't really play many games, so it was never a big concern...

So here's the deal: I need a new video card (I had to give away my 6600 and the FX5200 I am left with is just not going to cut it). Trouble is there are just SO many options out there nowadays I just don't know what to look for. To make things more difficult, I have an AGP card slot.

So far my research has led me to the following conclusions:

-> I don't need bleeding edge performance as I really don't play many games. I should also mention that my budget is $250 total (including shipping, heatsinks, coolers, etc).

-> With AGP, basically the options in my price range are another GeForce 6600 or a Radeon X800. Of these I think I prefer the X800, but I've never had an ATI-based card before so I am a little hesitant to make the change.

-> I really like the Arctic Cooling Silencer - the idea of exhausting the heat immediately out the back of the case is phenomenal.


My questions:
1. What "flavor" of X800 is going to be the best in my price range?

2. Is there a particular manufacturer that is commonly preferred for ATI cards?

3. Has anyone out there had a good experience fitting an Arctic Cooling Silencer to an X800 AGP card? If so, what make/model was it?

4. I have read that the AC Silencers develop clicking and other mechanical noises over time - is this common or just in some cases?


For reference: The machine this is going to be installed into is the POWER machine in my signature. The case is an SLK3000B with 120mm NEXUS fans @12v on the intake, exhaust, and CPU cooler. The S12 power supply also has a 120mm fan feeding directly above the CPU. Ambient temps range from 22C-28C depending on the season. The side panel intake vents/ducts on the 3000B have been covered and sealed (my desk is RIGHT there anyway so they would be useless). My Raptor HDD is enclosed in a GUP SmartDrive Copper, so it is exceptionally quiet.

I know this is long, but I wanted to be complete and save time explaining later. My sincere thanks for any help/advice that you guys can lend...

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:46 pm

Maybe you can dig up an ATI 9800 Pro Excalibur, by HIS.

Performance is quite good, it's within a reasonably margin of the 6600 GT, see this comparision: http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/gef ... _pentium4/

It comes standard with an Arctic Cooler and since it's an "outdated" card, it could be found during the sommer for attractive prices. Dont know if it's still on the market, though.

Earlier, ATI drivers had a bad reputation, but nowadays they're good - at least mine runs flawlessly.

Tephras
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Post by Tephras » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:04 pm

In that price range I'd look for a Radeon X800GTO or a GeForce 6800GS. There's so many different opinions on different manufacturers so I think it's hard to do any general statement about which is the best or the preferable. The AC Silencers seems to have a high sample variance, the noise issues might only appear in some cases, but there has been enough cases to make that cooler a no-buy for me personally.

OmegaZero
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Post by OmegaZero » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:31 pm

Thank you for the input, guys!

The X800 is going to be superior to the 9800 right? Are they close in performance?

Has anyone had experience fitting an X800 with an Arctic Cooling Silencer?



Tephras: I had read about some noises from the AC Silencers, but I think the fact that the heat is directly exhausted is worth the gamble. I had a passive GeForce 6600 up until recenly that ran silent, but the system & CPU temps dropped SO much when I changed it to the 5200...

dddibley
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Post by dddibley » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:50 pm

The X800 comes in many flavors. From low (X800 plain) to high (X850XT), the graphics processing speed can almost double.

Here are 2 that 'popped up' at ZipZoomFly. (searched 'agp' 'decending' as an example)

$224.99 - 6800GS

$199 - X800 GTO

You could go a lot cheaper and still find a good card. X700 Pro comes to mind too. Similar performance to 9800 Pro.

ddd

oakdad
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Post by oakdad » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:01 pm

6800gs has some serious bang for your buck.

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 pm

Regarding Arctic Coolers;

I dont know about sample variance; But I do know that the electronic, which regulate the fan speed have A LOT to do with the noise level. On the Excalibur 9800Pro, there's a simple switch on the rear, and on low, this card is very, very quiet.

I tried a Galaxy 6800, which also came standard with an Arctic Cooler, but this card was very noisy. RMA'ed it, the next one was the very same. So I returned it, and went back to 9800Pro. Because it was a safe choise, and within my budget at that point.

There might be others with good fan regulators, I dont know. A work around, can be to regultae the fan speed with a fan mate.

The problem is, that several cards use PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) for fan regulations. That is, they deliever 0 volt or 12 volt, not something in between. They adjust the speed by switching the fan power on and off all the time. That can generate audible noise.

Tephras
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Post by Tephras » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:55 am

The Excalibur 9800Pro use the VGA Silencer, that cooler was the breakthrough for AC when it comes to VGA cooling and earned the company good reputation, it doesn't have any of the fan issues that (some of) the NV/ATI Silencers have.

When the NV/ATI Silencers was released there was some users that experienced fan clicking directly after installation and some of those users managed to get rid of the clicking by using a motherboard fan header instead of the cards PWM regulation. In rev.2 of the NV/ATI Silencers Arctic Cooling implemented a fix for this fan clicking problem. However, AFAIK, for most of those that experienced that the fan started to make a clicking noise after some time of use it does not matter whether they use the cards PWM regulation or not.

Mike_P
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660gt man!

Post by Mike_P » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:19 am

Get a 6600gt (EVGA) and a Zalman VF700cu.

powerful card for $150 ish CDN, $40 for VF700. Quiet too boot!

dispite what some people say, the vf700 does work on the agp 6600gt, the secret is to make sure the card has a seperate Heatsink for the HSI chip (which is why i said to get a eVGA). The ram sinks which will not fit are not even needed (the oem HSF does not cool them).

it also comes w/ the Zalman 2x12v and 2x5v connector so you can run it @ 12v or 5v, and other fans as well!

Even if u dont get the 6600gt, i suggest the vf700 as it works with almost every gpu in this price range (6600 - 7800, x600 - x850) just look at their website for compatability.

OmegaZero
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Post by OmegaZero » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:27 am

Thank you so much everyone!

Mike_P: The Zalman solutions seem quite respectable, however I really can't ignore the benefits of evacuating the video card's heat directly out of the case - I think my wholemachine will be happier with that.

Thomas / Tephras: I have read that the Excalibur 9800Pro is a great card. I'll have to look into that...



An question: How does the performance of the 9800Pro compare to the X800? Are they even close?

SebRad
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Post by SebRad » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:21 am

Hi, Anandtech have many many video card reviews with benchmarks from which it's possible to determine where almost everything fits relative to each other. Ones I've picked out relavent to you:
6600GT vs various inc older ATi cards
X800 line up reviewed against each other
X800GT
X800GTO
Seb

Mike_P
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Post by Mike_P » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:37 pm

OmegaZero wrote:Thank you so much everyone!

Mike_P: The Zalman solutions seem quite respectable, however I really can't ignore the benefits of evacuating the video card's heat directly out of the case - I think my wholemachine will be happier with that.
very true, but dont forget the NV silencer's are smaller fans, smaller means faster to move the same volume of air. I have heard some remarks that complain about the silencers noise. but i cannot remember where, nor to the extent.

the 120mm exhaust should be more than enough to exhaust the hot air.

I'm running a HOT system by comparison to most (3.0prescott) and a 80mm vantec stealth fan and i have no heat issues. (idle 38, load 54 (cpu)).

if u go for a X800 line, i've seen the x800xl for around 300 @ futureshop. but not much less anywhere. in the sub 200 price range the 6600gt is hard to beat.

damn.. i must sound like a salesman with all the zalman talk. lol.
good luck on your pc.

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:23 pm

When comparing video card performance, it's worth considering the rest of the platform: It doesnt help spending money on the latest top notch card, if the rest of the computer limits the overall performance.

That's why I like this comparision: http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/gef ... _pentium4/

Regarding choise of cooler: Basically it's a good concept, what AC are doing. But what if you have a card which dont generate that much heat? For instance, the 6800 (non-GT) performs equal or better, than the 6600GT, but with much less heat...

That's a not so good thing about the 9800Pro, it generates a lot of heat: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/ ... ons_8.html

Image

Source (and details): http://www.hardfeed.com/srv/ramp/review/819.html

The X800 is good in this regard.

Also consider which games you'll play; UT2004 is my favorite, I play it at maximum settings on the rig in my sig. Other games, like Star Wars Batteleforce is more requiring... The question is what happens with the next generation of games :wink: Personally, I dont want to upgrade my PC the next year or two, and I think the 9800Pro is in good balance with the rest of my system.

OmegaZero
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Post by OmegaZero » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:10 am

Mike_p: One of the other factors that is keeping me with the AC instead of the Zalman is that many cards come with the AC installed - hence no voided warranty on the card. Plus, if I buy one with an AC on it, I can always change it for a Zalman later if it is too noisy 8)

Thomas: That is a good point about heat and games, which lead me to my latest thought (see below) - If the x800 is good on this regard, than the x700 should be too right?


I found the HIS Radeon X700 IceQ 128MB GDDR3 AGP on Newegg.com for $136. Perhaps that will be a good compromise with price, speed, heat, and noise?

I found some pretty good reviews of it...
Last edited by OmegaZero on Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

OmegaZero
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Post by OmegaZero » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:25 am

I found a good comparison on techreport.com. It looks like the 6600 is a little bit faster ("by the slimmest of margins"), but it was this statement that really caught my eye:
techreport.com wrote:The X700 XT also has few weaknesses, although its relative performance in Doom 3 could be a little better. Otherwise, it's all good, from best-in-class antialiasing (including funky temporal AA) to 3Dc normal map compression to the razor-sharp video signal output of a "built by ATI" graphics card. The Radeon X700 XT will recommend itself especially to those folks looking to play real-time strategy games and the like, where vertex shader power will be at a premium.
I play real-time strategy games almost exclusively.


Another question:
Does anyone have the AC Silencer working on a 6600 AGP?

dddibley
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Post by dddibley » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:21 pm

The thing about a X700 purchase is you'll probably buy a X800 later on. I know, I did. It's a taste of the gaming power.

X700 XT was top of the line ( higher core, mem). The 'Built by ATI' (BBA) PRO version is middle ground and has 256MB of 2.0 ns (500/1000DDR). Also VIVO if you're into it. Can't comment on HIS, although you should be happy with that card (lower core, mem).

6600GT is faster in most reviews.. but you're talking to an ATI fanboy so keep an eye out for an older X800 Pro or XT too.

ddd

Tephras
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Post by Tephras » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:25 pm

OmegaZero wrote:Another question:
Does anyone have the AC Silencer working on a 6600 AGP?
None of the AC Silencers fits the AGP version of the 6600 series.

The X700 XT is basically non-existant in the retail channel, that's especially true for an AGP version, there was review samples sent out but then nothing more happend.

For performance comparisons between a lot of different cards the 3Digest at digit-life.com is a good source, the latest issue from november 05 deal with AGP cards.

gbeichho
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Post by gbeichho » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:40 pm

I also own an AIW 9800 Pro (ever tried watching recording TV on your PC? You might never watch a real TV again...)

I bought an AC for it, and it still works great. I never even have to put it up to the high setting (low/high setting for fan). Even when playing games.

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:51 am


OmegaZero
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Post by OmegaZero » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:26 pm

Thank you all for you responses.

So after debating the situation and reading various references & reviews (guru3d, Tech Report, Toms Hardware, Anandtech, Firing Squad, etc), I decided to buy the HIS Radeon X700 IceQ 128MB GDDR3 for the following reasons:

1.) Price. For $136 shipped I just couldn't turn it down.

2.) Stock AC Silencer. No voided warranties here, and I am guaranteed that it will fit. I read a lot of posts here and elsewhere about trouble getting the AC coolers to fit certain cards - and they flat out aren't compatible with the 6600 AGP. I did look into passive cards and the Zalman solutions, but I truly believe that the idea of direct exhaust is the way to go.

3.) I don't play many games. Truth be told, the FX5200 I am using now runs all of the games I own adequately with the exception of one: Age Of Empires III. I am sure the X700 has enough horsepower to get through that.

4.) The rest of the system is pretty fast, but by no means bleeding-edge. From what I can tell the X700 is about as fast as the cards that were top of the heap when my system was, so it seems a logical match to me.


Thank you all so much for your help. I will post pics, temps, etc when I receive the card and get it installed.

Deliriou5
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Post by Deliriou5 » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:09 am

Thank you all so much for your help. I will post pics, temps, etc when I receive the card and get it installed.
Any word on your experience with the X700 IceQ ?

I'm stuck with a 8500 and looking to upgrade, but am worried about noise. How loud did it turn out to be? Is that "silent mode" really around 20db?

It seams like newegg is trying to get rid of it's last stock of this card(now down to $116 after MIR), so I'm feeling the itch to jump on this. I was just burnt on and E-Bay deal on a passive Gigabyte 6600 (died in 5 days, and never really got hot).

Thanks for any info you have :)

-Dave

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