Need ultra-low power PCI Express card for server

They make noise, too.

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lunadesign
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Need ultra-low power PCI Express card for server

Post by lunadesign » Sat May 03, 2008 8:50 am

I'm building a 24/7 server using an X38/X48 mobo and am looking for an ultra-low power silent video card. In an ideal world, I'd be using an onboard graphics chip but that's not an option with X38/X48. Any recommendations?

This machine will rarely have a monitor connected to it. Once its installed, I'll generally remote into the desktop using VNC. However, I don't know of any way to truly run the machine headless, thus the low-power video card need.

I'm currently connecting it to a VGA monitor switch but will eventually move to a DVI monitor switch. But again, console use is pretty rare.

Strid
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Post by Strid » Sat May 03, 2008 9:52 am

You could find something like and old, old S3 Virge PCI card or similar. Those don't even have heat sinks on them and should be enough for most uses, as you'll rarely have to do anything graphical because it's a server.

lunadesign
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Post by lunadesign » Sat May 03, 2008 10:38 am

Very interesting idea....thanks for bringing that up. Any idea if Win 2003 x64 will have drivers for an S3 Virge?

Strid
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Post by Strid » Sat May 03, 2008 11:21 am

lunadesign wrote:Very interesting idea....thanks for bringing that up. Any idea if Win 2003 x64 will have drivers for an S3 Virge?
I have no idea, I doubt the S3 Virge is maintained still, lol! :) But you could probably get away with using some generic windows driver. I have lots of those ye' oldy graphics cards lying in my junk boxes. If you're lucky you can bribe a mate with a beer and get one for free. I know I would be up for that! :oops:

DrJ
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Post by DrJ » Sat May 03, 2008 12:28 pm

Why do you wish to use an X38 or X48 for a server? These are desktop boards for overclockers; the system requirements for a good server are almost opposite.

Why not go with one of the Intel 5x00 series chipsets? The server-oriented boards all have on-board video, some sort of remote management board so you can work on it over Ethernet (even the old ones had console IO redirection), dual (or more) Ethernet chips that off-load the CPU (in contrast to most desktop boards), address more memory, are more stable, come with on-board SAS if you want, can accept multiple CPUs, and on and on.

What do you wish the server to do?

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Post by smilingcrow » Sat May 03, 2008 1:04 pm

An ATI HD 2400 Pro or its more recent replacement (model number somebody!) is very low power for a modern PCIe card. If you can find a HD 2350 Pro that might be better; only 64MB typically and OEM only so very cheap: <$20.

An X38/X48 mobo is a very strange choice for a Server system if power consumption is an issue!

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Post by thejamppa » Sat May 03, 2008 2:07 pm

I agree with Smiling crow X38/48 are high end gaming motherboards with high quality power features and crossfire. Hardly a server type board, especially if you want to run lowpower server.

HD 3450 isn't that bad either.

lunadesign
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Post by lunadesign » Sat May 03, 2008 2:35 pm

DrJ wrote:Why do you wish to use an X38 or X48 for a server? These are desktop boards for overclockers; the system requirements for a good server are almost opposite.

Why not go with one of the Intel 5x00 series chipsets? The server-oriented boards all have on-board video, some sort of remote management board so you can work on it over Ethernet (even the old ones had console IO redirection), dual (or more) Ethernet chips that off-load the CPU (in contrast to most desktop boards), address more memory, are more stable, come with on-board SAS if you want, can accept multiple CPUs, and on and on.

What do you wish the server to do?
The server is going to run a bunch of 24x7 VM's. I was purposely avoiding the 5x00 series chipsets because I'm not thrilled about FB-DIMMS although I have no personal experience with them. However, I just found out about the 3200/3210 chipsets that don't use FB-DIMMS so I'm doing some quick research into those.

Why X38/X48? The primary reason is that I'm actually building a workstation and a server at the same time and would like to use as many common parts (case/mobo/psu/proc) as possible so I can stock spares more cheaply. I'd also like to stay close to the mainstream so that if I'm having trouble, I'm more likely to find someone who owns a similar part who may have already encountered the same problem.

Although I realize the X38/X48 are for the overclocker crowd (of which I'm definitely not a member), it would *seem* to fit my needs, especially if I go with ECC. I had heard rumors that the X38/X48 might be a bit more power hungry than the P35 but I didn't hear they were really that bad. Would they be that much worse than the 3210 chipset?

DrJ
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Post by DrJ » Sat May 03, 2008 3:57 pm

lunadesign wrote:The server is going to run a bunch of 24x7 VM's.
Well, what do these VMs do? Will it be a bare-metal virtualization, or something higher-level? Do they run different OSs, or are they like BSD jails or Solaris zones? What OS? What is their expected load?

I find that people often way overspecify servers. You might not be, but often servers do not really deal with high CPU loads -- just a lot of I/O.
I just found out about the 3200/3210 chipsets that don't use FB-DIMMS so I'm doing some quick research into those.
Both Tyan and Supermicro have boards for these. The latter even makes a 5100-chipset micro-ATX board that with buffered ECC DDR2 memory that might suit your purposes for both workstation and server:

http://supermicro.com/products/motherbo ... 7DCA-L.cfm
I'd also like to stay close to the mainstream so that if I'm having trouble, I'm more likely to find someone who owns a similar part who may have already encountered the same problem.
With respect, the X38 and X48 boards will never be main stream.

I understand about spare parts stock, but it can work to your disadvantage. My primary server deals with a couple of moderately-sized databases (for literature references/documentation and lab notebook pages, each about 10K entries), printer sharing, DNS service, email (IMAP), centralized back-up (to tape), and some minor other tasks such as running an iinternal web page with data reduction templates, travel expense forms and the like. It also serves as an input station for one test bench.

I put together a dual Prestonia Xeon box, with mirrored 73GB SCSI primary drives and a 500GB data drive and 3GB ECC-Reg memory, for about $300. For reference, Prestonias are about half the speed of a modern Intel CPU with the same clock speed and number of cores. It runs FreeBSD, FWIW.
I had heard rumors that the X38/X48 might be a bit more power hungry than the P35 but I didn't hear they were really that bad. Would they be that much worse than the 3210 chipset?
I'd worry more about matching load to what each computer is supposed to do. For example, does the server need to be absolutely reliable, with no downtime? If so, you probably need a real RAID card, hot-swap drives, and redundant power supplies. Will it be exposed to the outside world? Will it be responsible for connecting network segments, or flow throttling?

And so forth.

I am not trying to be difficult, but an X[3|4]8 board on a server just seems like a bad idea.

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Post by lunadesign » Sat May 03, 2008 4:49 pm

DrJ wrote:Well, what do these VMs do? Will it be a bare-metal virtualization, or something higher-level? Do they run different OSs, or are they like BSD jails or Solaris zones? What OS? What is their expected load?

I find that people often way overspecify servers. You might not be, but often servers do not really deal with high CPU loads -- just a lot of I/O.
For the most part, they are dev servers for my web development clients. I have varying clients on varying platforms and usually have separate VM's to mimic their production env's. The box this one is going to replace currently has 5 Win2003 VM's, 2 Win2000 server VM's, 1 Fedora Core VM and 1 CentOS VM. The host is Win2003 and I'm currently on Virtual Server 2005 R2 although I may move to VMware some day. For the most part, these VM's sit idle. During client reviews, one or two VM's may get relatively busy for a few days. Current box is a Dell PowerEdge SC1420 with a single 3GHz Xeon (Cranford) that's way too noisy (it sits in a ventilated closet in my office). Main reason for upgrading is to get more memory and more cores so I don't have to shuffle which VM's are currently running.
DrJ wrote:
I just found out about the 3200/3210 chipsets that don't use FB-DIMMS so I'm doing some quick research into those.
Both Tyan and Supermicro have boards for these. The latter even makes a 5100-chipset micro-ATX board that with buffered ECC DDR2 memory that might suit your purposes for both workstation and server:

http://supermicro.com/products/motherbo ... 7DCA-L.cfm
Wow! That's the first dual-socket board I've seen without FB-DIMM's. I just heard about the 5100 chipset but that's the first I've seen out there. Thanks for pointing this out! I'll have to look into this a bit more but I'd say this might be overkill as I doubt I'll ever need the 2nd socket. It also only uses 667MHz memory, whereas I can get 800MHz unbuffered in the X38/X48 boards.
DrJ wrote:
I'd also like to stay close to the mainstream so that if I'm having trouble, I'm more likely to find someone who owns a similar part who may have already encountered the same problem.
With respect, the X38 and X48 boards will never be main stream.
True, but I'm guessing I'm a lot more likely to find someone on SPCR trying to silence an X38/X48 board than a 5100 board. I'm also guessing the BIOS options on a server board are going to be limited in case I want to underclock for noise/power reasons. Lastly, if 2-3 years down the road, I need another mobo to replace a spare I had to use, I'm probably going to find more X38/X48's out in the wild. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any or all of this.
DrJ wrote:I understand about spare parts stock, but it can work to your disadvantage. My primary server deals with a couple of moderately-sized databases (for literature references/documentation and lab notebook pages, each about 10K entries), printer sharing, DNS service, email (IMAP), centralized back-up (to tape), and some minor other tasks such as running an iinternal web page with data reduction templates, travel expense forms and the like. It also serves as an input station for one test bench.

I put together a dual Prestonia Xeon box, with mirrored 73GB SCSI primary drives and a 500GB data drive and 3GB ECC-Reg memory, for about $300. For reference, Prestonias are about half the speed of a modern Intel CPU with the same clock speed and number of cores. It runs FreeBSD, FWIW.
Not bad for $300....I'm guessing second-hand?
DrJ wrote:
I had heard rumors that the X38/X48 might be a bit more power hungry than the P35 but I didn't hear they were really that bad. Would they be that much worse than the 3210 chipset?
I'd worry more about matching load to what each computer is supposed to do. For example, does the server need to be absolutely reliable, with no downtime? If so, you probably need a real RAID card, hot-swap drives, and redundant power supplies. Will it be exposed to the outside world? Will it be responsible for connecting network segments, or flow throttling?

And so forth.
Totally understand. The box needs to be very reliable but since its primarily just myself using it, hot-swap drives & redundant power supplies aren't worth the added cost. RAID's probably worth it but not by much. If something fails, I can swap with spares quickly enough. My biggest concern is being down for multiple days and wasting man-hours tracking down and waiting for spares to arrive.
DrJ wrote:I am not trying to be difficult, but an X[3|4]8 board on a server just seems like a bad idea.
I don't think you're being difficult at all and really appreciate the time you've put into helping me along. However, I *would* like to know why X38/X48 is a bad idea.

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Post by DrJ » Sat May 03, 2008 6:59 pm

lunadesign wrote:For the most part, they are dev servers for my web development clients... During client reviews, one or two VM's may get relatively busy for a few days... Main reason for upgrading is to get more memory and more cores so I don't have to shuffle which VM's are currently running.
Interesting application. This is not really a classical server application. FWIW, I usually figure on 1GB per VM, but for anything less than a heavy-duty web site you can probably use less.
Wow! That's the first dual-socket board I've seen without FB-DIMM's. I just heard about the 5100 chipset but that's the first I've seen out there. Thanks for pointing this out! I'll have to look into this a bit more but I'd say this might be overkill as I doubt I'll ever need the 2nd socket. It also only uses 667MHz memory, whereas I can get 800MHz unbuffered in the X38/X48 boards.
For your needs it might be overkill. You needn't populate the second socket, but you would get more memory. I've not found the memory speed differences between 667 and 800 MHz to make much difference in the real world, though they do benchmark differently.

Yes, the board does have a lot of compromises because it is dual-purpose and small, but for what it is, it is pretty cool.
I'm guessing I'm a lot more likely to find someone on SPCR trying to silence an X38/X48 board than a 5100 board.
Undoubtedly -- but the 5100s are not that different from the P35 flavor as far as silencing goes. Thermalright does have a reasonable heat sink for this family:
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/thhrforinxe5.html
Other than that, the case, PS and the rest won't be that much different unless you need server-specific features, like hot swapping. (No, I've not used the HSF, but it likely performs much like its siblings.)
I'm also guessing the BIOS options on a server board are going to be limited in case I want to underclock for noise/power reasons.
Right. You will have no options for undervolting or overclocking. You can always turn it off when you don't need it. SM does have some fan RPM profiles for their four-pin headers, but it is not as flexible as Abit's P35, for example.
Lastly, if 2-3 years down the road, I need another mobo to replace a spare I had to use, I'm probably going to find more X38/X48's out in the wild. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any or all of this.
I can't say, as I don't think either will be nearly as popular as a P35, for example.
Not bad for $300....I'm guessing second-hand?
Sure. Nobody wants the "old stuff" any more, so they are dirt cheap. I put this one together from various parts; the drives were new but refurbs. It has been utterly reliable, and more than I need.

The old computers are harder to get quiet; this part of computing really has improved over the last few years. But it can be done.
hot-swap drives & redundant power supplies aren't worth the added cost. RAID's probably worth it but not by much. However, I *would* like to know why X38/X48 is a bad idea.
Well, your server application really is not the classical server one. I'd guess that the X?8 boxes might have issues with remote consoles, getting RAID controllers to work (if you want to boot from them), utter stability, quality in comparison with the usual server parts, and so forth. But that really is not your application.

If I were you, and I'm not of course, I would be tempted to get one box that has everything on it -- your dev tools and the VMs. It would seem that you have to let in remote clients only occasionally, and you can configure the VMs to do that easily enough.

How about this board?
http://tyan.com/product_board_detail.aspx?pid=560
It is EATX (which brings its own set of issues) but it would keep you and your clients in trouble (grin) for a long time.

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Post by lunadesign » Sun May 04, 2008 8:36 pm

DrJ -

My VM's generally have been surviving with 512MB, but I'd like to get some of them up to 1GB.

The Tyan EATX board is neat except the FB-DIMM part.

The Supermicro 5100 board is *very* tempting although the inability to underclock will probably rule it out. Also, the 667MHz memory is a bit of bummer - although I realize it doesn't make that much of a difference, 3+ years from now 667MHz is going to seem pretty dated. I'd at least like to be at 800MHz. And of course, paying an extra 25% for the Xeon DP procs isn't great. But if I could underclock, I'd probably get over the other factors. Since I'll be stuck with this hardware for 3+ years, I'd definitely like that flexibility.

I'd still strongly prefer to get two boxes since I run my workstation pretty hard with 60+ windows open and a lot of Photoshop work. I wouldn't want that to be fighting for resources with the VM's. Part of the beauty of VM's is that if the server needs to be down for a day or two, I can run the VM's off of the workstation temporarily. But I wouldn't want to do it every day.

Two questions for you:

1) When you talk about server remote consoles, what are you talking about? Eons ago, I used to use Xylogics boxes connected to Sun servers that would allow me to essentially log into a text-based console, but I have no idea what today's equivalent would be for Windows-based servers.

2) Are the server boards *really* that much more stable than a high-quality X38/X48 board? If I go X48, I'd probably go with something like the Gigabyte GA-X48-DQ6, which apparently has some decent power-saving features on top of the usual SpeedStep stuff.

Thanks once again for your time....I really appreciate it.

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Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Sun May 04, 2008 11:55 pm

you cant beat any tyan.

just cant

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Post by DrJ » Mon May 05, 2008 6:47 am

lunadesign wrote:The Tyan EATX board is neat except the FB-DIMM part.
While I've not worked with FB-DIMMS (yet) my understanding is that they run a bit hot and sometimes need some air flow. That's about it.
The Supermicro 5100 board is *very* tempting although the inability to underclock will probably rule it out.
Up to you. There is a lot you can do with pin modification, which is necessary because of the lack of BIOS options. To me the greater limitation is no quad-channel memory, like the 5400 has. Also, no PCI-X slot.
3+ years from now 667MHz is going to seem pretty dated. I'd at least like to be at 800MHz.
Well, I'm still on PC2100 memory. I'm looking to upgrade, so that's why I know about these boards.

Yes, the Xeon route is expensive. I wonder sometimes if it is worth it too.
I'd still strongly prefer to get two boxes since I run my workstation pretty hard with 60+ windows open and a lot of Photoshop work.
Fair enough. There are also some security concerns: if your VM box is compromised, just start over and reload the VMs. Your workstation I'd imagine is a bit more involved.
When you talk about server remote consoles, what are you talking about?
These days most server boards have a separate Ethernet port that allows you to access the computer, even if it is not running. It is the equivalent of redirecting the serial port.
Are the server boards *really* that much more stable than a high-quality X38/X48 board?
Hard to say for any individual board. Servers though tend to have better quality components that last longer, and better on-board devices like NICs and FW ports (if they are workstations). They are also supported much better. I still have not received an answer from Gigabyte to a support inquiry I made in early February. My experience with Tayn support is much better; I've not tried SM yet.

The consumer boards are more oriented to keeping the price low and the feature set high. Mostly this works out OK, but I admit that I get frustrated every time I use a consumer MB and BIOS. Choices that are just odd are made, and things you think should be there are not.

Part of the question is how long you want to run them. The server boards just last longer. I'm typing this on an old dual Athlon MP on a Tyan board, and I have not had one hardware issue over the five years I have run it. My next box will need to access between 16 and 24GB of memory (large finite element calculations) so I need to go Xeon or Opteron and buffered memory.

Again, these boards may be overkill for your server application. It really is not a classical server, in that you only need it to be up for days a month. Probably pretty much anything will work for that. You don't need the other fancy features, and with ECC memory you are taking care of one of that aspect.

The main issue, if you don't need large amounts of memory, is their cost and BIOS inflexibility. If you use the X?8 baords, the systems you are putting together should cost about $1500 to $2000 each, depending on what you want to do with disks. The uATX board itself will cost the same, but the processors will cost an extra $500 or so each and you will have to work a bit harder to get it quiet.

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