Is it safe to buy Nvidia? (The Inquirer and other stories)

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:25 am

As said in subject: today is it a safe bet choosing Nvidia GPU or IGP in a hotter than normal environment as a quiet (or worse, a fanless) PC is?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/161278/n ... chips.html

Are any advised user or staff member aware of anything more precise than the notorious The Inquirer's charges to Nvidia?

Regards,
Luca

yensteel · Post by **yensteel** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:49 am

I wouldn't panic. There's no point of reference to compare the spending to. I wouldn't be surprised if AMD is in a similar situation.

Olle P · Post by **Olle P** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:02 am

The specific case related to is one batch of laptop GPUs.
More troublesome is that some large laptop manufacturers (Dell and HP) that installed these GPUs do their best to avoid replacements.

Cheers
Olle

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:11 am

Olle P wrote:The specific case related to is one batch of laptop GPUs.

That's not true: as far as I know the case is (should be) related to every G84/86/92 65 and 55nm GPUs as for high temperatures and in relation with their TSMC manufacturing process (if I remember well the firms currently involved).

The so called "laptop case" (Apple/Dell/HP) has been pointed out as notebooks run hotter than desktops and they are a lot in the wild, while silent PC is still a niche market. Anyway it's not due only to any single bad batch, it seems related to the actual (and current) manufacturing process.

Regards,
Luca

ame · Post by **ame** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:05 am

What specific card are you looking at? what type of preformance is your goal?

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:26 am

ame wrote:What specific card are you looking at? what type of preformance is your goal?

Something like 9600GT/GTS250, preferably passively cooled: but the key point is Nvidia's current line-up reliability at high temperatures.

Post by **CA_Steve** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:26 pm

I don't think it matters whether you get NVidia or AMD. Both follow similar design and manufacturing rules.

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:35 pm

CA_Steve wrote:I don't think it matters whether you get NVidia or AMD

I don't mind AMD/ATI right now: all I want to know is if Nvidia has solved their alleged manufacturing troubles.

But if you know more and true data than those pointed out by The Inquirer (and a few other information sources) since one year ago, please let us (me) know.

Regards,
Luca

Post by **CA_Steve** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:05 pm

If this was the thing from a year ago,....all of the problems centered around one mobile GPU chip during assembly. The package design/assembly was poorly thought out (problems with the thermal gradient of the chip, the bond wires, and the backfill in the package). With many extreme thermal cycles, bond wires were failing, thus the chips were failing.

So, they have many series of GPUs on the market and had one bad package design. <shrugs>

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:37 pm

CA_Steve wrote:all of the problems centered around one mobile GPU chip during assembly

According to Apple and HP it's not accurate to say so.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... ive-nvidia

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... ebase-g92s

I mean the thing is from 4-6 months ago, and it affects even current desktop GPU line-up, as pointed out 8 months ago by the same source:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... -parts-bad

Regards,
Luca

Post by **CA_Steve** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:17 am

Yep, more than one die....and the Dell/HP precautionary solution seemed to be to flash the BIOS so the fan starts ramping up earlier.

I guess I'm just not that concerned about how this would affect my desktop PCI-e GPU selection. Buy a solution from a vendor that provides a lifetime (or even 5yr) warranty. Ensure a decent airflow/thermal envelope.

LodeHacker · Post by **LodeHacker** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:00 am

Does anyone know if this same applies to Quadro? My Quadro has the G84GL chip, but has only once hit 70C while rendering HD content (stock cooler). All I know is that this particular Quadro is from PNY, no idea on warranty but it has run for 2 years straight (kind of video server).

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:51 pm

Having GPUs that die quicker if they heat up is not a good combo with low airflow cases and most SPCR readers don't provide any more airflow than they have to.

fwiw, I haven't bought any Nvidia products newer than the 7xxx series since that issue was revealed.

ATI products didn't compete on price on the extreme low end (I'm talking $30 video cards) at the time of the reveal so for a while I was still buying 6xxx and 7xxx nvidia cards when I needed one.

More recently HD 3xxx and 4xxx cards have hit that price area and now I just buy from the safe side of the pond.

Take for example the Radeon HD 4350. Cheap, modern, fanless. Perfect for a simple dual screen setup in a business setting or maybe a home setup.

For a few bucks more the 4650 is available but it isn't fanless.

A few bucks above that and you have 4670 options.

Wait a little bit and you have the 4770 coming any day now (May 2009?).

I was happy with Nvidia for years but I've switched camps. I'm not sure how many others will do so as some people don't pay attention to the low end, others don't pay attention to failures of parts that they didn't personally buy. Brand loyalty works so differently for different people. But for me the GPU on my system is the most easily switched component so I'm not going to stick with Nvidia out of loyalty to past purchases.

lodestar · Post by **lodestar** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:50 pm

When the Inquirer asked Nvidia for a response it was that "...There are no known problems with G92s. They do use the same material set, but as I stated before, and will state again, they are not defective. They are NOT subject to the same thermal designs and usage patterns that our other parts have been subjected to (in notebook systems). Essentially, they do not operate anywhere near the critical temperature that causes the other parts to have abnormal failure rates...".

I have owned a G92 desktop product for about eighteen months and it's been absolutely fine. If there had been an epidemic of G92 failures it would have been pretty obvious by now.

In terms of Nvidia current product line, the G92 is now positioned as a low-end/low middle range product. The top of the line G92 the 55nm GTS 250 1Gb product for instance sells here in the UK for around Â£120, and at this price easily competes with the ATI 4850. I would have absolutely no concerns about buying one.

However given the current level of prices for the Nvidia GTX 260/275/285 I am much more likely to buy one of these as my next graphics card. And they use the 200 series GPU which is unaffected by this issue.

I have an ATI equipped PC as well, but I think the cooler running and generally lower power consumption of the Nvidia 200 series cards is not being matched by the current ATI range. This will not matter to hard-core gamers but IMHO it does matter in the context of a quiet(er) PC.

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:00 am

dhanson865 wrote:Having GPUs that die quicker if they heat up is not a good combo with low airflow cases and most SPCR readers don't provide any more airflow than they have to.

Yes, it's about my point.

dhanson865 wrote:For a few bucks more the 4650 is available but it isn't fanless.

Last affirmation's been no more accurate since some months ago: there are some fanless 4650 and 4670 (HIS iSilence, Sapphire Ultimate, and their few mates), roughly from 100USD and up.

Regards,
Luca

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:38 am

lodestar wrote:If there had been an epidemic of G92 failures it would have been pretty obvious by now.

A possible epidemic of failures among quiet-pc enthusiast, I mean it could be more meaningful: I guess more casual users are less prone to overheating (this was another concern of my original question: have G92s' and G94s' SPCR readers got any problem? It doesn't seem so).

lodestar wrote:I think the cooler running and generally lower power consumption of the Nvidia 200 series cards is not being matched by the current ATI range.

It's the cat and mouse game that ATI and NVIDIA have to play against each other: currently I don't see this mismatching.

GTX275s are more power hungry and costly than HD4890s, while GTX260s (SP216, the older part numbers are not competitive) are less power hungry but still a 10% more costly than 4870.

55nm GTS250 and 9800GTX+ seem to be well positioned against ATI offering, but ATI is launching its newer 40nm lineup.
I guess the GTS250 could have some effective competition by the releasing HD4770 (~80w, ~8% slower than Nvida's puppy, maybe sensibly cheaper if priced accordingly to current HD4830s):

9600GT instead are a better performer than 4650/4670 (but 4750?), while its power consumption (and therefore heat) is a lot more than the ATI product (double the 4650's one and +30% than 4670's one).

Eventually, about GeForce 200-series bullet-proof ability, there are some evidences that Nvidia has just renamed some old GeForce 9-series models, at least for current GTS250s:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... esentation

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... us-tips-up

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... -old-cards

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... -continues

Regards,
Luca

Post by **CA_Steve** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:41 am

Here's my last post on this topic.

<rant on>

As a semiconductor professional (not in the gpu biz), I think the build quality for BOTH ATI and NVidia are crap. They cut corners because of the mindset that PCs have a half-life of 2-3 years....and for the gamer market even less. Perhaps AMD will have a positive influence on ATI's design rules. Only time will tell.

I have no loyalty to NVidia. I currently have an 8800GTS and a old passive 6600GT, but have been recommending a lot of HD 4xxx cards lately for their performance/price points. The only graphics cards that have ever died on me were two ATI 9600's (within 30 days of ea other) with aftermarket Arctic Cooling coolers....and those were the last cards I've purchased w/o a lifetime warranty.

However, saying all NVidia cards are suspect today due to a problem limited to some last summer, is problematic. If you are an IC mfgr and can't rectify a package/assembly issue in 8 months, you deserve to be out of the business.

If you have major customers (Dell, HP, Apple) breathing down your neck and the liability costs are rising, you will move heaven and earth to fix the problem as quickly as possible (regardless of what the PR flacks and mouthpieces are saying in the press). Figure it took a month for them to assign blame (figure out root cause). Redesigning the bumping and assembly process, running test wafers, and a prelim qualification would take maybe 4-6 weeks. Another week to get these customers to bless the limited production release, another 2 weeks to get inventory into their hands with staged product. So, 3 months from "uh-oh, we've got a problem" to new inventory hitting the OEMs. 4 months for fully qual'd inventory.

If they had to do a second pass at a fix, call it 4-5 months.

<rant off>

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:31 am

CA_Steve wrote:you deserve to be out of the business.

First of all, thanks for your "rant".

Well, I've asked to pc-quiet enthusiasts (You), and as already stated just above it seems that The Inquirer's allegedly charges are not (no more) accurate (or true at all). At least in your day-by-day experience.

The only complaint is for Nvidia's PR behaviour: as far as I know, none has reassured the people that any problem, if any, has been fixed (and you could do even closing the friction with The Inquirer).

Best regards,
Luca

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:53 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:Having GPUs that die quicker if they heat up is not a good combo with low airflow cases and most SPCR readers don't provide any more airflow than they have to.
Yes, it's about my point.
dhanson865 wrote:For a few bucks more the 4650 is available but it isn't fanless.
Last affirmation's been no more accurate since some months ago: there are some fanless 4650 and 4670 (HIS iSilence, Sapphire Ultimate, and their few mates), roughly from 100USD and up.

Regards,
Luca

The point of that statement wasn't that there isn't a fanless 4650. The point was that the 4650 that is only a few dollars more expensive than the 4350 isn't fanless. English is a language that allows for much confusion but I chose those words carefully. I hope it makes more sense now.

using newegg prices the scale is

4350 fanless $36
4650 with fan $50
4650 fanless $64
4670 with fan $65
4670 fanless $80

LodeHacker · Post by **LodeHacker** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:42 am

To be honest if it wasn't for the drivers (Linux) I would probably look into Radeon products. In this situation I force myself to buy NVIDIA even if I know there is at least the possibility of a complete NVIDIA GPU series being defective.

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:06 am

dhanson865 wrote:I hope it makes more sense now.

Yes, I understand your point now (as you may guess, as I'm italian english is not my mother tongue).

dhanson865 wrote:using newegg prices the scale is

Glad to see tha US prices are more than a bit lower than italian/european ones.

Regards,
Luca

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:07 pm

inquirer is correct. 100% so.

the netbooks/laptops burn and fizzle terribly so. However, they make the best chip for compact computers, design wise.

They also make the best chips for gaming in a cool environment, if you game at very high resolutions and situations.

They also are built severely flawed.

They also have MUCH better warranties and service than ati partners could dream about. Check out EVGA. even bfg, xfx, they give some serious help and replacements.

I wouldnt consider it a hindrance knowing that they have flaws in their chips. I also hear of it more with their crap chips, aka, the ones chucked in laptops, vs overclocked fancy, 200+ dollar gaming cards.

Never buy PNY, just a tip.

LodeHacker · Post by **LodeHacker** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:49 pm

Never buy PNY? PNY are like the only one in my reach who sell Quadro :\

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:40 am

~El~Jefe~ wrote:Check out EVGA. even bfg, xfx, they give some serious help and replacements.

eVGA is not such a serious firm as for RMA management, in my humble opinion (I dunno about XFX or BFG).

Is there any (other) recommendation for *real* Lifetime Warranty services (for NVidia suppliers)?

Regards,
Luca

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:45 pm

LodeHacker wrote:Never buy PNY? PNY are like the only one in my reach who sell Quadro :\

yeah they really blow.

many friends have had their cards fry. poorly made, poorly attached heatsinks, hardly any goop, and in general, have fried 5-6 of them that i know of.

kinda crappy.

the only lifetime replacement is Visiontek. but you cant touch the heatsink mount normally, you can but its more complicated to deal with them then.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:55 pm

using newegg prices the scale is

4350 fanless $36
4650 with fan $50
4650 fanless $64
4670 with fan $65
4670 fanless $80
4770 with fan $110

still waiting for a 4770 fanless option

Cryoburner · Post by **Cryoburner** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:29 pm

LodeHacker wrote:To be honest if it wasn't for the drivers (Linux) I would probably look into Radeon products. In this situation I force myself to buy NVIDIA even if I know there is at least the possibility of a complete NVIDIA GPU series being defective.

Isn't that just a remnant from years past? As far as I know, ATI's Linux drivers and control panel have been roughly on par Nvidia's for some time now. Just because ATI's Linux support was somewhat lacking a few years ago doesn't mean it still is today.

LodeHacker · Post by **LodeHacker** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:37 pm

Cryoburner wrote:
LodeHacker wrote:To be honest if it wasn't for the drivers (Linux) I would probably look into Radeon products. In this situation I force myself to buy NVIDIA even if I know there is at least the possibility of a complete NVIDIA GPU series being defective.
Isn't that just a remnant from years past? As far as I know, ATI's Linux drivers and control panel have been roughly on par Nvidia's for some time now. Just because ATI's Linux support was somewhat lacking a few years ago doesn't mean it still is today.

Big plus for ATI is the open-source driver, but that's just about the only good thing. NVIDIA have brought Linux users VDPAU and NVIDIA supports newer OpenGL as well. 3D acceleration and AIGLX work wonderfully with NVIDIA. I don't have much experience with ATI but last time I tried to get a HD2400 working I needed to recompile lots of stuff and then to my luck 2D acceleration suffered, I couldn't enable Compiz (Fusion) on my desktop, but swapping in a NVIDIA 8400GS (yes, that utter bullshit for 30$) I get great 2D performance and Compiz (Fusion) plays nice as well.

yacoub · Post by **yacoub** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:28 am

dhanson865 wrote:using newegg prices the scale is

4350 fanless $36
4650 with fan $50
4650 fanless $64
4670 with fan $65
4670 fanless $80
4770 with fan $110

still waiting for a 4770 fanless option

Me too! That might allow it to fit in the <75w range that will remove the need for the extra power connector! Especially if they clock it down slightly, or even better - give it the 256-bit instead of 128-bit which would make up the bandwidth deficit incurred by lowering the clockspeeds.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:13 pm

nvidia can only be used if you use Cedega.

thats the thing that makes you 3d games not run like crap on linux and provides smooth support.