quiet system for linux - x86-64, recommendations?

Info & chat about quiet prebuilt, small form factor and barebones systems, people's experiences with vendors thereof, etc.

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jrodman
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quiet system for linux - x86-64, recommendations?

Post by jrodman » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:04 pm

Sorry to make my first post here in over a year be a plea for help. I've been reading the articles and forums here on and off, but I think I'm really a different sort of person than the average spcreviewer.

Tinkering with parts used to amuse me, but now it just frustrates me that the vendors still can't be bothered to implement specs correctly and everything is a hassle. I want a complete system that just works.

I also use Linux almost compeltely exclusively, which means a lot of parts selection issues are counter to those of Windows users.

In short, I am hoping to find a system that has:

- x86-64, because I like to upgrade less than once every 5 years
- intel onboard graphics, because they're the only ones with proper linux support (closed driver fans, I don't want to discuss this)
- no included monitor (I have a great LCD panel already)

Perks would be no copy of windows, no floppy drive, small form factor case. Hushpc seems exhorbitant, and I find their array of products bewildering, Apple doesn't seem interested in putting a modern CPU in the mini, and custom vendors I've contacted seem to want to sell me very expensive (and ugly) cases that aren't very quiet.

So far my strategy has been to hope Apple would update the mini to include a Core 2 Duo. They might do this in another 8 months or so. They might not. I'd like to buy a new system soon.

Not sure what I can do to thank you. Maybe I can send you a batch of cookies in the mail.

jrodman
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Post by jrodman » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:40 am

Huh. I emailed transtec and hushpc both, asking if I could buy in the US.

No replies.

Hushpc's products look good but I'm kind of astounded by the pricing. I guess low volume high precision cases like that are just not cheap to make.

Maybe I should give up and go through the pain of assembling a board, cpu, ram, and whatnot. Just such a pain to deal with figuring out fan volting and whether the cpu heatsink will collide with drive access space and...

dougz
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Compromise on the graphics?

Post by dougz » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:12 am

If I had the bucks, I'd go with the Shuttle X100. Yes, I'd have to compromise on the ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 drivers, but that comes as close to your spec as I can see.

There are always tradoffs. Mac Mini has Core Duo, smallish disks and low video performance, but meets your specs otherwise. Shuttle has Core 2 Duo, bigger disks, but ATI (faster!) video.

I admire the fact that Intel open-sourced their Linux video drivers, but the chipsets still don't deliver very good performance.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article661-page1.html
http://sys.us.shuttle.com/X100_4.aspx
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/11/29 ... _xpc_x100/

alexk
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Post by alexk » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:15 am

I've considered buying a MacBook and a mini-DVI adaptor for essentially all the same reasons you set out. It's a few hundred more than a mini, for a better machine.

It's true that the LCD is "wasted" if you just use it as a desktop. It's probably still cheaper than going to Hush or many custom-built vendors.

Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:14 am

How about:

- Inte Core 2 Duo T5500 - T7600
- Gigabyte 8I945GMMFY-RH µATX
- Antec NSK1300

Quite low cost compared to some other suggestions. You have some room for extra components, and you can even add a graphics card later on if some good drivers would show up.
Maybe it's too big for you? The only trouble would be noise, but since this system would draw very little power it wouldn't be difficult to fix that. You can also use a picoPSU instead, and without the internal PSU it would be possible to mount a 3.5" HD in a 5.25" enclosure under the DVD with some modding.
Last edited by Mats on Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

ultrachrome
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Post by ultrachrome » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:15 am


Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:24 am

ultrachrome wrote:Something like this?
http://system76.com/index.php/cPath/2_52
That's the Aopen miniPC, dunno how good the cooling is. Only one RAM slot and it uses a 2.5" HD just like the MacMini.

ultrachrome
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Post by ultrachrome » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:49 am

Mats wrote:That's the Aopen miniPC, dunno how good the cooling is. Only one RAM slot and it uses a 2.5" HD just like the MacMini.
It should be on par with a Mac Mini but I haven't seen any reviews.

For a modestly priced mini system, I like the Core 2 Duo and mATX board in the NSK3300. NSK1300 has some heatsink clearance issues and has a significantly bigger foot print while providing less room than the 3300.

Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:45 pm

ultrachrome wrote:NSK1300 has some heatsink clearance issues and has a significantly bigger foot print while providing less room than the 3300.
- The clearence issue is not a problem since the CPU uses very little power, most heatsinks will be enough. For instance, Zalman CNPS7000 fits.

- If he removes the PSU and uses a picoPSU then there's no clearence prtoblem, and probably space enough for a 120 mm fan in the back.

- The NSK1300 is roughly 3" wider, and half the height of the NSK3300. I'd prefer some other regular case than the NSK3300 sine you can't use ATX PSU's in it. But my guess is that the NSK1300 is almost too big anyway.

NSK1300: 7.9" (H) x 10.6" (D) x 13.2" (W), 1105 cubic inches.
NSK3300: 14"(H) x 7.8"(W) x 13.8"(D), 1506 cubic inches.

ultrachrome
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Post by ultrachrome » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:58 pm

Mats wrote: - If he removes the PSU and uses a picoPSU then there's no clearence prtoblem, and probably space enough for a 120 mm fan in the back.
Depending his preferences, dealing with a power brick might be considered a hassle. The 3300, by comparison doesn't have that potential limitation nor necessarily need a PSU swap.

Addtionally, if you are going to go to that trouble of retrofitting the 1300 for an external PSU, you probably should start looking at SFF cases designed with external PSUs in mind.
Mats wrote: - The NSK1300 is roughly 3" wider, and half the height of the NSK3300. I'd prefer some other regular case than the NSK3300 sine you can't use ATX PSU's in it. But my guess is that the NSK1300 is almost too big anyway.
Actually several folks have already retrofitted an ATX PSU into the 3300. Requires enlarging the current PSU opening on the rear of the case and cutting the panel below it for 120mm PSUs.

I got the impression that the 3300 PSU was a bit quieter than the stock 1300.

seemingly.random
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Post by seemingly.random » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:13 pm

don't know if Dell is verboten, but I've noticed some units that come sans Windows (FreeDOS) on their website. It's a pain to find but I think it was in the Small Business section. At the very least, it would be something to compare with. The SFF version should be pretty quiet. A low profile GPU could be added later when Linux support becomes available/stable.

Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:07 pm

ultrachrome wrote:Depending his preferences, dealing with a power brick might be considered a hassle. The 3300, by comparison doesn't have that potential limitation nor necessarily need a PSU swap.
- But the thing is that he never said that he wanted a µATX tower, he wants a SFF. As I said, even a NSK1300 may be too big. Besides, he doesn't have to swap PSU, just swapping the fan.
ultrachrome wrote:Addtionally, if you are going to go to that trouble of retrofitting the 1300 for an external PSU, you probably should start looking at SFF cases designed with external PSUs in mind.
- The choice of a 1300 is of course price, size and availability. Finding a miniITX mobo that's not expensive is quite hard. I guess he needs a µATX case, and the 1300 is one of the few that doesn't cost too much and have enough space.
ultrachrome wrote:Actually several folks have already retrofitted an ATX PSU into the 3300. Requires enlarging the current PSU opening on the rear of the case and cutting the panel below it for 120mm PSUs.
But then again he could pick just about any µATX tower that fits, similar to what you just said:
If you are going to go to that trouble of retrofitting the 3300 for an ATX PSU, you probably should start looking at µATX towers designed with ATX PSU's in mind.
I'd never buy a NSK3300 for a low power system if I knew that I would fit an ATX PSU later. Coolermaster and Compucase have better alternatives for a lower price.

ultrachrome
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Post by ultrachrome » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:47 pm

Well, sffclub.com has the 3300 on their front page. So everyone has their own idea of what constitutes SFF.

Clearly jrodman wants it quiet and the smallest SPCR recommended case happens to be the NSK3300.

jrodman
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Post by jrodman » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:57 pm

Lots of helpful pointers in this thread. Thanks.

ultrachrome: the system76 koala looks decent in terms of parts. Getting a very small system like that to be reasonably quiet takes effort though. I searched the forum for comments on it, and didn't find anything. Does anyone know its sonic profile?

dougz: Crashes are more important to me than performance. But intel 965 performs better with compiz than ati x1400. Also there's just the insult of buying hardware that the vendor refuses to document. I'm not rewarding that. It's not that vendors need to write drivers, but they need to be willing to not hide how their hardware works. I've been burned so many times by hardware that just becomes "unsupported" at some point.

alexk: I'll think about the macbook. My concerns are: it's easier to break, it's harder to service, and it's likely to be louder under load.

mats: If I'm going to do a build, I might do something like the nsk1300. The antec boxes are significantly less ugly than a lot of PC cases. A tower on the floor is a lot less bothersome for ugliness than a tiny pc on the desk. They could still do a lot better. Front-mounted usb jacks??

seemingly.random: I've had to work on and fix Dell hardware lately. I wouldn't buy from them. Build quality is just so low.

To be clearer, SFF would be nice, but I just haven't made up my mind. So many SFF boxes are so ugly (badly stamped sheet metal with utilitarian paint). Small PC is just because of the aesthetics of getting rid of this lump on the floor.

FWIW, if i'm going to do my own build, it's probably going to be a tower, because the small form factor is just going to be MORE hassle, which is exactly what I don't want. I'll end up pulling the power supply I already have, a seasonic., along with storage devices and sound out

Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:39 pm

If small size is not that important then it much easier to do it right. Here's the Coolermaster 541 µATX case I talked about. Good price, no PSU (ATX), and Neweggs customers like it very much. Somebody will probably complain that there's no room for a 120 mm fan in the back, but personally I don't care about that since I rarely use case fans.

jrodman
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Post by jrodman » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:28 am

Sales at system76 replied:
Thank you for your interest in system76.

The Koala is quite quiet. The CPU fan is a super quiet fan (noise below 27dB). The hard drive is screwed directly into the chassis but it is very quiet.

Please let us know if you have any further questions.
I asked if they'd done dB SPL measurements and at what distance, they replied with unspecified "dB" for the fan only. I asked for fan size, and rotation rate, and got nothing. I guess this is probably normal for PC sales. Are there any tricks to getting more useful information?

paulkzot
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Post by paulkzot » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:27 am

I had the same problem as you, running linux with a GPL graphic driver...

I bought a Asus P5B-VM matx mb with embedded GMA X3000 graphic engine and a dual core E6300, a ninja on top of the CPU and 2 memory sticks in dual channel mode. The rest of the computer is old.

All components can be run passively, the CPU go to 60°C in idle mode without Speedstep. I actually activated speedstep (with Linux activate ondemand CPUFreq governor) and use a very low speed 120mm (700rpm) to get a quiet system. If you follow the recommanded section of SPCR you will get a Linux superquiet system.

E6300 core 2 duo with Linux is really not used intensively and is something like overskill, but a dual core is really comfortable to use when running a compilation or a intensive computing.

IMHO, GMA X3000 will be a very great graphic processor in the future (T&L hw support) with top-of-the-art GPL drivers availables, thanks to intellinuxgraphics, but all functions are not supported now. So you can buy a very promissing motherboard for Linux now, or buy a already well implemented GMA950-based motherboard, an alternative that is also less expensive. For AIGLX, i advice you a GMA X3000. Keep in mind that you will need a recent linux distro (Ubuntu 6.10 for example) or a sata dvd player to install Linux due to the Jmicron Pata controller on such cards.


Another alternative now is to buy a pcie express motherboard with a VIA chipset, use a X300 ATI graphic card, there is GPL driver now (a situation that is realy new, less than a month!) and a dual core Athlon 64 or core 2 duo. You will get a very stable system with stable drivers and avoid problem of JMicron chipset (solved since kernel 2.18.1) and gigabit controller (RTL 8111b, works out of the box with ubuntu, driver available but not in the kernel tree).

jrodman
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Post by jrodman » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:39 pm

Reboot!

If I am going to build my own very quiet computer, I don't need help (beyond the information generally available on this site) with the quiet part. I mostly will just need someone to comfort me as I rage in frustration trying to sort through badly specified part numbers, underdefined compatability information, and so forth. I wouldn't ask that of all of you, and would seek support from old friends and lovers.

paulkzot: Yeah, obviously the GMX X3000 would be ideal, although 950 of any sort will probably be fine. The (old chips, new driver) ATI stuff is promising, but I'm not buying hardware on the basis of a raw project when there's hardware that doesn't require reverse engineering and is more capable and cheaper. As for a dual core being overkill, it really depends on what software you're running. My goal though is just to not have to upgrade this thing for another 5 or so years. And as you say, the SMP brings dividends in responsiveness when there's so much sloppy software in the world. I'm aware of the JMicron I/O controller issue, it's sooo not a problem for me.

cindyhot
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Post by cindyhot » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Hey guys, wondering if I can horn in on this discussion...

I'm looking for the same kind of system and the guys at the hardware site directed me here... I'm a software gal (Linux only!), hardware's not really my thing and I'm having trouble figuring all this out. BUT I have some ideas, so here goes.....

I need a new desktop, I love these cute new SFF systems but the main thing is, it's gotta be QUIET. My tower screams and jangles!

Sooooo after lots of wrangling and advice, I was thinking about the NSK1300. It's $77 at directon.com which seems like a good price. Is this a good choice for me? I need it quiet, love it cute and cubey, and have to keep the price down?

But after picking out the case, I REALLY need help figuring out what to put in! Is there a good motherboard/CPU that will work well with Ubuntu?

All I know is that it should have sound and I'll need a parallel port for my printer. Ihave a Matrox g400 video card now, I don't know if I should reuse it or find something else. My old roaring tower also has a SCSI scanner and a PC card reader for my camera memory cards. I'm pretty sure I won't be able to plug those in on the new one. Should I replace the scanner with a USB scanner? And how about the memory cards?? Does this case have a place to plug in?

I can't wait to be settled in, this is confusing... :( So thanks for your help!

~Cindy

paulkzot
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Post by paulkzot » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:00 pm

Hi,

Still talking about my asus-P5B-VM. There is a parallel port. For your scsi connection, it depend if it is a child PCI card, in which case you will just need to plug into one of the 2 pci slots. If it isn't the case, you would be likely to by a new scanner, it will certainly be less expensive than buying a new SCSI card. For your memory cards, it is typically connected to an internal usb connection, there are 4 available in the P5B-VM, as for most motherboard in fact. This MB is fully passive.

Ubuntu will be fine on this MB (I tested, then came back to Debian). On the next release you would have AIGLX enabled by default out-of-the-box.

For your case, a NSK 1300 should be ok for such a system (all micro-atx). Be carefull to the power supply, micro-atx PSU aren't so quiet.

Paul

cindyhot
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Post by cindyhot » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:18 pm

Paul, no probs with the onboard ethernet or the sound or anything? If not then I might just get one of these, although I did see some much cheaper matx boards like from MSI.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813130068

paulkzot
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Post by paulkzot » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:53 am

Onboard sound is a intel HDA, drivers are free and in the main kernel tree. Onboard ethernet is a realtek 8111b, drivers are free and available but not in the main kernel tree. I personnaly use a old pci ethernet card to avoid problems, but ubuntu have drivers in the main distribution working out of the box.

Other matx boards that are using an Intel GMA 950 instead of a GMA 965 are less expensive but also less powerfull, as:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813128322


The board you quote is also very interesting (Nvidia 6100 based), but drivers are not free and you will have to install the nvidia drivers or use non-accelerated vesa driver. Intel based mb works out-of-the-box and are more easy to use with Linux. Remember that this is a mb for AMD athlons and not Intel Core.

The asus P5B-VM have 5 sata connectors, one esata and a firewire connector.


Paul

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